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Old 22nd July 2018, 09:33 PM   #121
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This has been a lot of fun. It's better than the most of the totally legal shootings under various states' "Make My Day" laws, but it still doesn't hold a candle (ha) to the Craigslist John who gunned down a harlot stealing $150. The Lone Star state allows someone "to use deadly force to recover property during a nighttime theft." Nighttime! God, I love Texas. Some might say our laws are "backwards" and "barbaric" but maybe they're just awesome and great.
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Old 22nd July 2018, 10:41 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
All of the US has pretty much the same self-defense law, if you have a reasonable belief that your life is in imminent danger, you can use deadly force.

Where the differences come in is if you have a duty to try and retreat prior to doing so.

Again, your "only difference" is the exact same ****** one under discussion.

This is how much sense your argument makes:

Person A: Boys and Girls have different genitalia.

You: You have no idea what you are talking about!! Boys and Girls are exactly the same as each other. The only difference is they have different genitalia!!

Person A: Um, yeah. That's what we are talking about...
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Old 22nd July 2018, 10:57 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Nearly all other states:

1) do not insist that the state prove that there was no "reasonable fear" involved - instead, the defendant would have to prove that he or she did have reasonable fear.
This is incorrect.

You are wrong. Mumbles is incorrect. Perhaps you don't understand the difference between trial and pre-trial.


Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It is plain that McGlockton was the aggressor in this case, having escalated a purely verbal confrontation (which is not illegal) into a physical one (which is illegal). McGlockton committed a crime of assault.

Wrong on both counts.

The verbal confrontation can be illegal or legal. If he was threatening violence that would be illegal. If he was making demands that would be illegal. If he was disturbing the peace that would be illegal.

The physical confrontation could also be illegal or legal. If he was protecting someone it would be legal. If he was protecting himself it would be legal.

Your racial bias is showing.
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Old 22nd July 2018, 11:00 PM   #124
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Somehow I'm not surprised that you're unwilling to have your beliefs challenged. I guess you will just keep on believing the fantasy world you developed. But hey, you do you.

Mumbles is 100% correct. And if you would read the appropriate thread and facts of the case you would know that.
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Old 22nd July 2018, 11:15 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Again, your "only difference" is the exact same ****** one under discussion.

This is how much sense your argument makes:

Person A: Boys and Girls have different genitalia.

You: You have no idea what you are talking about!! Boys and Girls are exactly the same as each other. The only difference is they have different genitalia!!

Person A: Um, yeah. That's what we are talking about...
How does if there is a duty to retreat or not effect that you can only use deadly force if you have a reasonable belief that you are in imminent threat of losing your life, or suffering severe bodily harm?

If I take on your analogy, I am arguing that Boys and Girls are both human despite the minor difference of genitalia. You are arguing that Boys aren't human because they have different genitalia to Girls.
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Old 22nd July 2018, 11:18 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Mumbles is 100% correct. And if you would read the appropriate thread and facts of the case you would know that.
Why would I bother with threads that filled with speculation and myths created out of thin air by people with no connection to the case when I can get the direct evidence and facts as given in court at the time by those that were there and dealt with the case?
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Old 23rd July 2018, 12:40 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Why would I bother with threads that filled with speculation and myths created out of thin air by people with no connection to the case when I can get the direct evidence and facts as given in court at the time by those that were there and dealt with the case?

What matters are the actual facts in the case. Not where they are acquired. Mistakes can happen in courts just as often as in internet forums as we all saw in the Amanda Knox case.

IOW, nice appeal to authority fallacy.

All of the evidence that Zimmerman was not justified in shooting is from Zimmerman's own mouth. Mostly from the Sean Hannity interview, the walk-through video, and the various phone calls, including the clandestinely recorded jailhouse phone calls.

2 of the 6 six jurors said they made the wrong decision within one week of the case being over. After they were shown all of the evidence that the defense was able to block.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 02:56 AM   #128
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It's pretty amusing to see people still being this wrong about the Zimmerman / Trayvon affair this long afterward.

That case and the opinions people held about it were an absolute clown show. Many, many people were brought over to the alt-right because of how the media approached that case and how clearly it revealed (like the OJ verdict before it) just how irrational, tribal and criminal-loving most blacks in the U.S. are.

I watched every moment of the trial, and pre-trial, and every piece of media I could get my hands on. I confess to having been obsessed with it.

There is really no question or doubt at all that the verdict was correct and that Zimmerman (with all his faults) was legally justified in shooting Martin. The law and evidence were VERY clear and the only reason a trial or charges took place was appeasement of ignorant racial mobs crying out for blood and vengeance.

It was quite clear what happened. A busybody neighborhood watch guy was being arguably a bit over proactive and maybe trying to feel like a bit of a hero by being the eyes and ears of the cops and ended up irritating a young criminal thug who resented being kept track of, so the thug attacked him viciously.

Trayvon had every opportunity in the world to come out of that night alive, probably even well into his physical assault upon Zimmerman. But he just kept at it because the same poor impulse control and violent nature which inspired him to approach and attack GZ in the first place continued to inspire him to take it way too far even as his victim laid there screaming bloody murder.

Richly deserved fate. Richly deserved acquittal.

Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
2 of the 6 six jurors said they made the wrong decision within one week of the case being over. After they were shown all of the evidence that the defense was able to block.
Incorrect. After they were exposed to the madness the rules of sequestration were specifically in place to shield them from.

They came into contact with a torrent of insane, emotional, and threatening nonsense which made it quite clear that backpedaling and disavowing their verdict might be an appealing option to get some heat off them.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 03:34 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
It's possible the shooter was looking for a fight.
Yea but there is nothing illegal about that in florida.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 03:36 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Tough to claim self defense when you picked the fight.
If you are losing there it seems pretty easy.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 03:40 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Yet another thread where a hotheaded idiot with a gun will find defenders despite his inexcusable actions.

What a hero! Zimmerman-like qualities. Starts abusing and bullying a young woman who commits a minor misdemeanour, suffers a reasonable reaction from her partner, kills him.

NRA has yet another poster boy.
I wonder how much he will be able to auction the gun off for? Gun owners love these guns.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 03:41 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by chrispy View Post
This appears to be bull-****. The man was pushed over, and the deceased was standing away, not attacking, and telling the man on the ground to get **********... and then he was executed. Keep lookin' good, Florida. Keep Lookin' good.
Starting a fight and losing it is always an acceptable reason to shoot in florida, see Zimmerman.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 03:46 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Yea but there is nothing illegal about that in florida.
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
If you are losing there it seems pretty easy.
It would really help if you actually knew what you were talking about instead of pulling crap out of your arse.

Quote:
The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony;  or

(2) Initially provokes the use or threatened use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force or threat of force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use or threatened use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;  or

(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use or threatened use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use or threatened use of force.
Please stop it with your BS, all you are doing is making yourself look silly and weakening your own arguments.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 03:46 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
But shooting the guy who is backing away from you after pushing you to the ground is? Even if he is never arrested, I think the shooter is going to end up paying for his actions for the rest of his life.
Yep this is why making it illegal is unnecessary.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 03:48 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Zimmerman, like this guy, was plainly the aggressor, and white, while the murdered person in both cases was black.

*shrug* Not sure why anyone is surprised by this, I fully expected it after various racists rushed to Zimmerman's defense and claiming that Martin was some sort of black brute, jive-talking stereotype.

ETA: regarding World Star Hip Hop: haven't seen anyone concern themselves with that site for years - it was a place to see nuditiy in amateur rap videos, and to watch idiots injure themselves or others.

You'll note that I didn't specify black idiots. Mostly because pretty much anyone getting beaten or tazed would cut it. College kids rioting because their team won or lost, that guy that grabbed a waitress' ass and got bodyslammed the other day,
Clearly he should have shot her for that. That would have been legal in all 50 states apparently.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 04:35 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Tank View Post

They came into contact with a torrent of insane, emotional, and threatening nonsense which made it quite clear that backpedaling and disavowing their verdict might be an appealing option to get some heat off them.
Interesting what the death of another human being, justified by a ridiculous law, does to people.

It's insanity.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 04:46 AM   #137
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I watched the video. There is no audio. What I see is a man checking out a vehicle. He approaches the driver's side and then backs off a step or two and appears to be pointing out other parking spaces. He does not appear to be gesticulating too wildly. When the boyfriend comes out, the old guy is distracted by the vehicle door opening and does not see or react the the boyfriend coming at him. The boyfriend violently shoves the guy to the ground. We can't see if his head strikes the ground as it is blocked by the boyfriend's body. The guy on the ground goes for his weapon and shoots the boyfriend within 4 seconds of hitting the ground. We don't know what the boyfriend was saying before the guy shoots.

Speculation does not help.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 05:00 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Disagree. The deceased blindsided him and wrecked him. That would be 15 yards and an ejection for targeting. The guy who got blindsided seemed totally dazed.

Pro tip, do not park in handicapped spots.
Video of the initial assault with intent to injure.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=szemB_1532302198
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Old 23rd July 2018, 05:11 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
This is just plain wrong. Every State requires this. Self Defense has no burden on the Defendant to show it being true beyond their normal burden to convince the jury it is, it is part of the Defense's case and just with any other part of the Defense's case, the burden is on the State, which has to show that it is not true beyond reasonable doubt.
I don't know about that, I don't think that proving no reasonable fear or not would come into the grand jury in other states for example.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 05:12 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
I honestly wouldn't bother, a number of posters here have convinced themselves that their make-believe world around that case is the real truth, despite the fact that the Zimmerman trial is one of the few US Court Cases that can be watched in it's entirety on YouTube.
Yep nothing aggressive about stalking someone in their own neighborhood. It becomes a simple question on who is black then.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 05:31 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Disagree. The deceased blindsided him and wrecked him. That would be 15 yards and an ejection for targeting. The guy who got blindsided seemed totally dazed.

Pro tip, do not park in handicapped spots.
Video of the initial assault with intent to injure.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=szemB_1532302198
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Old 23rd July 2018, 05:42 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by Cain View Post
This has been a lot of fun. It's better than the most of the totally legal shootings under various states' "Make My Day" laws, but it still doesn't hold a candle (ha) to the Craigslist John who gunned down a harlot stealing $150. The Lone Star state allows someone "to use deadly force to recover property during a nighttime theft." Nighttime! God, I love Texas. Some might say our laws are "backwards" and "barbaric" but maybe they're just awesome and great.
Strictly speaking that was even weirder, those were warning shots that accidentally hit her and he had no legal liability for it for some reason. At least at trial.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 05:46 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
It would really help if you actually knew what you were talking about instead of pulling crap out of your arse.



Please stop it with your BS, all you are doing is making yourself look silly and weakening your own arguments.
We are talking about how it is actually applied not in theory what the law says. In application that is how it works. Like in application you are never legally liable in florida for negligent discharges killing people.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 05:46 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Video of the initial assault with intent to injure.

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=szemB_1532302198
The deceased was turning to his right and beginning to swing his left foot around, as if to take (at least ) a pace away. He was most definitely not advancing on the gunman.

But if we take a view on the word 'retreat' in the law here - does no obligation to 'retreat' imply that you may 'advance'? And here I'm not viewing those words in the sense of physical position, as the shooter clearly 'advanced' the development of the situation. Just wondering.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 06:05 AM   #145
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The shooter should be charged, though I'm not sure whether a jury would find him guilty or not.

Ultimately the question is whether the jury would find it reasonable for him to shoot when he did. Like others have said, the video shows that the shover had taken a few steps back and did not seem to be making a further effort to attack the shooter when he fired. I am of the opinion that drawing the firearm was justified, but by the time the pistol was produced, firing it was not justified. The attacker stepped back and enough time had passed that a reasonable person would not feel their life was imminent danger any longer. Simply put, brandishing the weapon was enough to end the attack and that would be clear to any reasonable person in this situation. Firing was not lawful IMO.

While it's certainly a breach of common civility, criticizing strangers in public is not violence or the threat of violence. Unless Drejka was saying something explicitly threatening to the woman in the car, McGlockton was not legally or morally correct in shoving him. Verbally confronting him would have been acceptable and satisfying to most, while remaining well within the bounds of the law. Call him a tiny-dick busybody and go about your day. Whether a single, forceful shove is enough for someone to reasonably fear for life and limb is something I hope a jury would decide, not the sheriff.

I'd generally categorize the two types of responses from people that carry a concealed weapon. One type realizes that, by virtue of carrying a deadly weapon, any conflict they get into could easily escalate to deadly violence. Knowing such, they act in a way to avoid and deescalate conflicts as much as possible, even in cases where they are legally and morally in the right. Discretion is the better part of valor and all that. I'd like to think I fall into this camp.

Another group sees their hidden weapon as a secret trump card. They act more boldly and feel more inclined to address all the ills of society knowing that, in the likely event of a negative response, they will prevail. These people disgust me, even in cases where they are legally in the right. It's the "I'm not touching you" defense for morally abhorrent behavior. While not written into the law, I find it hard to imagine a jury wouldn't let this kind of poor attitude affect their decision making to some extent in a self-defense case. Most have little pity for those who go out looking for trouble and find it.

I would speculate that had Drejka not been carrying a concealed weapon, he wouldn't have felt so bold in his mission to protect the sanctity of handicap parking.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 06:13 AM   #146
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I don't feel its accurate to state that he was looking for a fight simply because he has a history of addressing people in handicap spots. I do it too. Is it because my mother is handicapped? Most likely. But I also call people out for not taking carts back. I just hate lazy, inconsiderate people. That being said, I wouldn't shoot anyone for being a lazy ass. I live in PA where we have a SYG law in place. I also have a gun and have a carrying permit. I have never drawn on anyone to date. There isn't a problem with the law itself. The problem is with people today and how they overreact to almost everything. Fact, the people in the handicap spot were wrong. Coming out and knocking the guy down - wrong. Pulling a gun and killing someone because you got your pride bruised in a parking lot - punishable offense.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 07:29 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
The deceased was turning to his right and beginning to swing his left foot around, as if to take (at least ) a pace away. He was most definitely not advancing on the gunman.

But if we take a view on the word 'retreat' in the law here - does no obligation to 'retreat' imply that you may 'advance'? And here I'm not viewing those words in the sense of physical position, as the shooter clearly 'advanced' the development of the situation. Just wondering.
I think Drewbot meant that the shove was the initial assault and that it was intended to injure.

Regarding advancing, I don't think so. That would shift the dynamic to mutual assault, as opposed to strictly defending. I'm not sure you could claim self defense when you are actually assaulting under Florida law. Stand Your Ground kind of implies neither retreating nor advancing.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 07:48 AM   #148
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I think Drewbot meant that the shove was the initial assault and that it was intended to injure.
If I got shoved to the ground I wouldn't take that as 'intent to injure', whereas a punch in the face would be another matter.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Regarding advancing, I don't think so. That would shift the dynamic to mutual assault, as opposed to strictly defending. I'm not sure you could claim self defense when you are actually assaulting under Florida law. Stand Your Ground kind of implies neither retreating nor advancing.
Then it seems to me that when the shover backed off the shooter did not 'stand his ground'. He advanced. Pulling the gun established his ground and that he was going to defend it.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 08:40 AM   #149
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Question of the law aside, isn't the issue here that the sheriff has unilaterally acquited the guy? Who is he to determine there was a "reasonable" fear? If there was, shouldn't that be determined by a jury?

Ok, let SYG be a defense against homocide charges. But make that case in front of a jury, don't leave it up to a jury to assess, not Bubba the Good Ol Boy sheriff or DA
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Old 23rd July 2018, 09:14 AM   #150
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
Question of the law aside, isn't the issue here that the sheriff has unilaterally acquited the guy? Who is he to determine there was a "reasonable" fear? If there was, shouldn't that be determined by a jury?

Ok, let SYG be a defense against homocide charges. But make that case in front of a jury, don't leave it up to a jury to assess, not Bubba the Good Ol Boy sheriff or DA
The State gets a run at charges too. They can still get our Captain Courageous in the defendant's seat
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Old 23rd July 2018, 10:19 AM   #151
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Was just reading a Huffington Post article about this where they have the girlfriend interviewed and she says:

“He wanted somebody to be angry at,” Jacobs said. “He just wanted someone to fight him. He was picking a fight. I’m just sitting, waiting for my family to come back to the car.”"

Let's say she's right and this guy was looking for someone to be angry at. Okay... so if he hadn't found someone parking in the handicapped spot he would've figured something else out to be mad about? Maybe, but probably not. If she'd apologized and moved to a different spot, or expressed shame (or even feigned ignorance) and just said that her boyfriend parked there and she hadn't realized and she'll make sure to tell him not to do it again, or anything like that rather than getting into a shouting match with the shooter, would her boyfriend have ended up shot? If he'd come out and not immediately physically assaulted the guy, would he have ended up shot?

There are people in the world out there who do have chips on their shoulder or are kind of looking for a conflict. It's hard to say whether they just want to tell someone off, or if they're looking for more than that. Some of them are armed. The best thing we can all do is to not be idiots who break the law, get into angry shouting matches when called out on it, and not be the kind of people who physically assault someone for telling us off about breaking the law. 99,999 times out of 100,000 that will keep us bullet free.

It's kind of like that recent video of the guy groping the scantily clad waitress as he walked behind her at the bar.

If the only thing keeping you out of jail on a sexual assault charge is the fact that the stars haven't yet aligned to put someone in sufficiently skimpy clothing within arm's reach while you are the right amount of intoxicated, then that's a bad strategy for you because it's only a matter of time.

Likewise, if the only thing that has kept you from being shot dead is that you haven't yet encountered an armed busybody and physically assaulted them, you should do something to improve your odds (like not be a criminal) and if you're incapable of adjusting your behavior patterns to not include criminal assault, then perhaps society is better off with you shot.

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Old 23rd July 2018, 10:33 AM   #152
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Was actually with you right up to that last line. Even a criminal can turn it around and be a benefit. Hell, I work with guys with histories, who are solid contributors and good fathers now. We're not putting inconvenient dogs down in this great nation, just yet
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Old 23rd July 2018, 01:16 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by angrysoba View Post
ST, we know full well that you are happy to see a black person shot dead. In many other instances this would be an unfair strawman, but in your case it is not.
I think it's still a straw man.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 01:22 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
Am I seeing this correctly? Because it looked to me like the guy clearly backed away. And then actually had turned away back towards the store right before he was shot.
I've seen two videos from different camera angles.

I'd agree that the guy was pretty much blind-sided, and then it looked like the deceased was likely to attack again. Then the gun came out and the deceased was clearly retreating for a period of time before he got shot.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 03:44 PM   #155
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Several people in this thread seem to be forgetting that even if the "shove" was 100% wrong (legally, morally, financially, whatever) the shooting can very well still be determined to be unjustified. Even in Florida.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 04:41 PM   #156
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I've been blindsided by punches and shoves. Never even entered my mind that lethal force was warranted in response.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 05:51 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I think it's still a straw man.
Why?
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Old 23rd July 2018, 08:16 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Strictly speaking that was even weirder, those were warning shots that accidentally hit her and he had no legal liability for it for some reason. At least at trial.
Yeah, he sprayed the hooker's car with bullets from an AK-47. In the end, he got off. Hope he got his hundred-and-fifty bucks back, too. I bet the next trollop won't pull the "got-your-money" stunt again.
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Old 23rd July 2018, 08:36 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
I've been blindsided by punches and shoves. Never even entered my mind that lethal force was warranted in response.

Well that's probably because you are not a piece of **** Republican Fox News Bubble racist ****** pussy.


ETA: (errr... I assumed that last word would be asterisked out as well... I'll leave it I guess! )
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Old 23rd July 2018, 08:39 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Mumbles is incorrect.

That should read "Mumbles is correct". I was reading the wrong word when trying to type the "correct" one.
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