ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 24th July 2018, 02:16 PM   #201
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,303
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The guy pursued him. That is plenty of reason to fear for your life.
logger, is that you?
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2018, 02:24 PM   #202
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,303
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Doesn't matter, the shove had already happened and was done. You can't shot someone for an attack that has ended.

If I walk up behind you and whack you in the head with a baseball bat and then drop it and step back, you aren't entitled to draw your gun and shoot me, because the attack is clearly over. Doing so is not self defense, it's a revenge murder.

Same thing is someone is charging you with a knife and you shoot them in the shoulder dropping them to the floor. You can't then walk over and put three more bullets in them and claim self defense.

The shooter had enough time between drawing and firing to see that the guy was backing away, he was no longer a threat once the gun was draw. Without a reasonable imminent threat to his life or of serious bodily harm, the shooter no longer can claim that the shot was fired in self defense.

That reasonable threat to him had passed before he fired, thus it's murder.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)


Last edited by PhantomWolf; 24th July 2018 at 02:25 PM.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2018, 02:40 PM   #203
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,271
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Doesn't matter, the shove had already happened and was done. You can't shot someone for an attack that has ended.

If I walk up behind you and whack you in the head with a baseball bat and then drop it and step back, you aren't entitled to draw your gun and shoot me, because the attack is clearly over. Doing so is not self defense, it's a revenge murder.

Same thing is someone is charging you with a knife and you shoot them in the shoulder dropping them to the floor. You can't then walk over and put three more bullets in them and claim self defense.

The shooter had enough time between drawing and firing to see that the guy was backing away, he was no longer a threat once the gun was draw. Without a reasonable imminent threat to his life or of serious bodily harm, the shooter no longer can claim that the shot was fired in self defense.

That reasonable threat to him had passed before he fired, thus it's murder.
wrong, the attack had not ended, the attacker was coming in for stomping time, and was stopped only because the gun was drawn, plus the whole thing lasted six seconds, and you are parsing out the moments after the victim got knocked on his ass? Ridiculous
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root

Last edited by The Big Dog; 24th July 2018 at 02:44 PM.
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2018, 02:48 PM   #204
lobosrul5
Muse
 
lobosrul5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 960
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wrong, the attack had not ended, the attacker was coming in for stomping time, and was stopped only because the gun was drawn, plus the whole thing lasted six seconds, and you are parsing out the moments after the victim got knocked on his ass? Ridiculous
Not sure thats true. He seems to backing away before the gun was drawn. And even if it is true, so what? I have no problem with the guy drawing his pistol FYI, that seems prudent. And if Florida has that BS rule that if you draw you must fire, well that really needs to go.
lobosrul5 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2018, 02:56 PM   #205
Cain
Straussian
 
Cain's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 12,125
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
If I could've carried a gun on my person between about 6th and 10th grade and shot every kid who shoved me or worse.... man I'd have quite the kill count.
If you were packing a gun, they wouldn't've shoved you. This is why Florida's well-known concealed carry-permits, and reasonable "stand your ground laws," means it's almost unheard of for people to shove strangers. It doesn't happen.
__________________
April 13th, 2018:
Ranb: I can't think of anything useful you contributed to a thread in the last few years.
Cain is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2018, 02:58 PM   #206
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,696
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wrong, the attack had not ended, the attacker was coming in for stomping time, and was stopped only because the gun was drawn, plus the whole thing lasted six seconds, and you are parsing out the moments after the victim got knocked on his ass? Ridiculous
Using telekinesis?
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2018, 04:02 PM   #207
Ziggurat
Penultimate Amazing
 
Ziggurat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 40,074
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wrong, the attack had not ended, the attacker was coming in for stomping time
Unsupported speculation.

Quote:
and was stopped only because the gun was drawn
That's the whole point: the gun draw stopped everything. There was no need to fire. That's what makes firing the gun disproportionate and unjustified.

You're backing a bad case, TBD.
__________________
"As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law
Ziggurat is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2018, 06:39 PM   #208
Mumbles
Philosopher
 
Mumbles's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,916
Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Does anyone think this guy would be out playing parking police if he wasn't armed? It takes a special kind of courage to be confrontational knowing that you have a gun hidden in your belt.
Would he?

Well, every responsible gun owner I know has stated that a concealed carry comes with additional responsibility to avoid confrontation. Simple idea being, they don't ever want to be in a situation where they start a fight, and someone notices their gun under their shirt or whatever, since at that point the whole thing turns into a fight for your life.

In other words, this guy could be finding courage via his gun, or he could be some hotheaded idiot who was just unable to control his anger properly. No telling which is which, in the end.

Quote:
Legal or not, shooter is human garbage.
THat much we can agree on.
Mumbles is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 24th July 2018, 11:28 PM   #209
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 38,580
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Wait, you just declared quite authoritatively that the victim was not in fear for his life, and that is your response. Mmmm_mmmmm! Delicious irony.

Seems, like the deceased’s mistake was “parking” an armed man on his ass because his baby momma was too *********** lazy to park like a human being.

Did you miss the whole shove and the victim hitting the concrete? Look at the video again.
Someone pointed out the first hilited statement as a dog whistle. The latter goes quite a bit beyond even that!

You can't claim ignorance of their race. What would you like to tell us "like a human being" means in the context of a white/black confrontation thread?
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 03:33 AM   #210
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,303
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wrong, the attack had not ended, the attacker was coming in for stomping time
Not only speculation, but clearly incorrect speculation

Quote:
and was stopped only because the gun was drawn
Glad you agree that the attack was stopped before the gun was fired.

Quote:
Ridiculous
Indeed, your arguments have become quite...

Quote:
Ridiculous
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 03:34 AM   #211
ponderingturtle
Orthogonal Vector
 
ponderingturtle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 43,828
Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
Would he?

Well, every responsible gun owner I know has stated that a concealed carry comes with additional responsibility to avoid confrontation. Simple idea being, they don't ever want to be in a situation where they start a fight, and someone notices their gun under their shirt or whatever, since at that point the whole thing turns into a fight for your life.
An interesting argument, then I guess this guy deserved what he got.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/...un-permit.html

Should have known better than to intervene while carrying.
__________________
Sufficiently advanced Woo is indistinguishable from Parody
"There shall be no *poofing* in science" Paul C. Anagnostopoulos
Force ***** on reasons back" Ben Franklin
ponderingturtle is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 06:27 AM   #212
SuburbanTurkey
Critical Thinker
 
SuburbanTurkey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Boston, USA
Posts: 332
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
An interesting argument, then I guess this guy deserved what he got.

https://www.military.com/daily-news/...un-permit.html

Should have known better than to intervene while carrying.
To be honest, it was unwise to intervene in his case. By getting involved while carrying, he introduced a firearm to a fight that previously didn't have one, escalating it tremendously. This is especially true if your weapon is holstered in such a poor way that it's likely to fall out onto the ground unintentionally. I can't really fault the police for shooting at someone who's holding a firearm during a street fight.

Whether he "deserved" to be shot is the wrong framing. He should have considered whether he, as a regular citizen who happened to be carrying a gun, was the best person to break up an unarmed street fight.
__________________
Gobble gobble

Last edited by SuburbanTurkey; 25th July 2018 at 07:08 AM.
SuburbanTurkey is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 06:37 AM   #213
bignickel
Mad Mod Poet God
 
bignickel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 3,124
In TBD's argument, if you come out to your car and see someone yelling at your spouse, and you push the guy away and he falls to the ground, then you're an "attacker" and you're "attacking" him. And killing you is justified for shoving the guy away from your vehicle with spouse inside.

Seriously, why is anyone engaging with this troll? Am I the only one getting a Russian accent here?
__________________
"You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real. I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that."
- Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone

Last edited by bignickel; 25th July 2018 at 06:38 AM. Reason: spelling
bignickel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 07:03 AM   #214
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,696
Originally Posted by bignickel View Post
In TBD's argument, if you come out to your car and see someone yelling at your spouse, and you push the guy away and he falls to the ground, then you're an "attacker" and you're "attacking" him. And killing you is justified for shoving the guy away from your vehicle with spouse inside.

Seriously, why is anyone engaging with this troll? Am I the only one getting a Russian accent here?
Not a spouse; that is an important distinction in his argument. Baby momma squatting in her jalopy. And McGlocklin was a hulking aggressor who blindside attacked and was going in for a World Star stomping, against a poor old man who was head injured and dazed. See how different it is?

DaVinci got nothing on The Big Dog
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 07:12 AM   #215
Hellbound
Merchant of Doom
 
Hellbound's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not in Hell, but I can see it from here on a clear day...
Posts: 12,472
Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
You're backing a bad case, TBD.
I suspect it's force of habit at this point
Hellbound is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 07:20 AM   #216
Hungry81
Graduate Poster
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,770
Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
As an adult? I can assure you that it is a very serious crime. In Florida, McGlockton's actions constitute simple battery, which would make him eligible for up to a year in prison and a fine of not more than $1000. That is, unless McGlockton had been previously convicted of battery, in which case the law allows for him to be charged with felony battery, which would open up the possibility for him to serve up to five years in prison plus a fine of up to $5000.
If he had been arrested and charged with assault and a parking ticket issued then that would be a suitable resolution. The way things turned out was not.
Hungry81 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 07:39 AM   #217
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,271
Originally Posted by bignickel View Post
In TBD's argument, if you come out to your car and see someone yelling at your spouse, and you push the guy away and he falls to the ground, then you're an "attacker" and you're "attacking" him. And killing you is justified for shoving the guy away from your vehicle with spouse inside.
Ah, folks it was just a "push" and the "victim" "fell" to the ground.

The victim should have kept his feet on the ground! He "fell"!

Not really surprised at all how wildly people are underselling this blind side attack.
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 07:47 AM   #218
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,696
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ah, folks it was just a "push" and the "victim" "fell" to the ground.

The victim should have kept his feet on the ground! He "fell"!

Not really surprised at all how wildly people are underselling this blind side attack.
You kepp using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

Your blind side is opposite where your eyes are. McGlocklin walked up at a right angle and shoved him in the chest. Nothing about that is a blind side attack.
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 07:53 AM   #219
bignickel
Mad Mod Poet God
 
bignickel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 3,124
Anyone remember the Python self-defense course skit? Where Cleese shoots the guy who's running at him with a banana? "He had a banana!"

Hilarious.

It's odd how in real life, the guy is 1. not running at the gun-welder 2. doesn't have anything, much less a banana.

Not so hilarious.
__________________
"You can find that book everywhere and the risk is that many people who read it believe that those fairy tales are real. I think I have the responsibility to clear things up to unmask the cheap lies contained in books like that."
- Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone
bignickel is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 07:57 AM   #220
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,271
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You kepp using those words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.

Your blind side is opposite where your eyes are. McGlocklin walked up at a right angle and shoved him in the chest. Nothing about that is a blind side attack.
Yeah, NO. Here it was a deliberate attack to the side against someone who was not in a defensive posture able to defend himself.

Take a gander: "The definition of a blindside block established by the committee is “a block against an opponent other than the runner, who does not see the blocker approaching,”

https://www.nfhs.org/articles/new-bl...hool-football/

But I was told that the victim "fell down" because of a "push."
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 07:58 AM   #221
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,696
I got this one, TBD:

A banana is a lethal weapon. You can poke an eye out with those things. And that hulking attacker was charging in to World Star banana-smash the doddering old man. With massive head trauma.
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 08:00 AM   #222
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,696
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Yeah, NO. Here it was a deliberate attack to the side against someone who was not in a defensive posture able to defend himself.

Take a gander: "The definition of a blindside block established by the committee is “a block against an opponent other than the runner, who does not see the blocker approaching,”

https://www.nfhs.org/articles/new-bl...hool-football/

But I was told that the victim "fell down" because of a "push."
Soooo...you think they were playing football? In context, blindside has a different meaning than the sporting definition. But you knew that.

Eta: fell down because of a push is an understatement, but not a gross one. Shoved and knocked down are more accurate, agreed
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907

Last edited by Thermal; 25th July 2018 at 08:02 AM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 08:01 AM   #223
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,271
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I got this one, TBD:

A banana is a lethal weapon. You can poke an eye out with those things. And that hulking attacker was charging in to World Star banana-smash the doddering old man. With massive head trauma.
Cool story.

Golly, so many people want to diminish the initial attack, that left the victim on the concrete.
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 08:15 AM   #224
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,696
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Cool story.

Golly, so many people want to diminish the initial attack, that left the victim on the concrete.
No diminishing. It was a strong, aggressive battery. Just not lethal.

But come on....give us some more sports definitions to interpret it. What is the NFLs penalty for unnecessary roughness? A free gunshot at close range?
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 08:20 AM   #225
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,271
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
No diminishing. It was a strong, aggressive battery. Just not lethal.

But come on....give us some more sports definitions to interpret it. What is the NFLs penalty for unnecessary roughness? A free gunshot at close range?
You provided your own subjective, slanted definition of a word.

I provided a reasonable, objective third party source so that you would understand what a blind side attack means.

Accept it or not, don't bother me no never mind.

As I stated when this whole thing began, I know one guy who died when his head hit the concrete, and another guy who suffered major brain damage and resulting hemiplegia.
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 08:24 AM   #226
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,696
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You provided your own subjective, slanted definition of a word.

I provided a reasonable, objective third party source so that you would understand what a blind side attack means.

Accept it or not, don't bother me no never mind.

As I stated when this whole thing began, I know one guy who died when his head hit the concrete, and another guy who suffered major brain damage and resulting hemiplegia.
My acceptance is irrelevant. It is objectively irrelevant. A sports committee's definition of a game's rules has no relevance whatsoever to assault and battery
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 08:34 AM   #227
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,271
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
My acceptance is irrelevant. It is objectively irrelevant. A sports committee's definition of a game's rules has no relevance whatsoever to assault and battery
We were talking about the definition of the term blindside, and your prefer your own made up definition.

I provide an objective source, which you reject because of course.

Here is another: "the side away from which one is looking." Merriam Webster suffice? I am guessing not, huh.
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 08:40 AM   #228
angrysoba
Philosophile
 
angrysoba's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 23,486
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
the attacker was coming in for stomping time, and was stopped only because the gun was drawn,
You are certainly advocating for the shooter, but if you were his lawyer you would have just sent him down with that argument.

The attack was stopped, therefore there is no case for shooting the attacker.

He should be charged with murder or manslaughter.
__________________
"The thief and the murderer follow nature just as much as the philanthropist. Cosmic evolution may teach us how the good and the evil tendencies of man may have come about; but, in itself, it is incompetent to furnish any better reason why what we call good is preferable to what we call evil than we had before."

"Evolution and Ethics" T.H. Huxley (1893)
angrysoba is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 08:41 AM   #229
Dr. Keith
Not a doctor.
 
Dr. Keith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Texas
Posts: 16,143
logger must be so proud.
__________________
I once proposed a fun ban.

Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God.
He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa
Dr. Keith is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 08:42 AM   #230
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,303
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Golly, so many people want to diminish the initial attack, that left the victim on the concrete.
What's to diminish? This is the thing, the shove was over, done, fineto, and even you agree that once the gun was drawn the incident was over...

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
and was stopped only because the gun was drawn
So what's at issue here? The simple fact is that you can't legally shoot someone unless there is a reasonable fear for your life or that great bodily harm is about to be done to you, and even you agree that such an attack was "stopped... because the gun was drawn."

There was no attack about to happen, which even you have stated, the guy was clearly stepping backwards, thus it was not reasonable to believe that imminent death or serious bodily harm was about to occur.

This guy shot his attacker out of spite, adrenaline, and revenge, not because he had a reasonable fear.

On top of that the guy has form. He's previously argued with someone else that parked in the spot and in doing do threatened to shoot the person he was arguing with. It's clear he was a hothead with a gun who was itching to pull the trigger. This time he got an excuse to do so and did it.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 08:46 AM   #231
Thermal
Illuminator
 
Thermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 3,696
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
We were talking about the definition of the term blindside, and your prefer your own made up definition.

I provide an objective source, which you reject because of course.

Here is another: "the side away from which one is looking." Merriam Webster suffice? I am guessing not, huh.
Your objective sourse contains restricted and restrictive elements, including the 'runner', making it's application foolish.

Merriam's definition more or less matches mine. Blind side is the side where you are blind. Drejka was shoved square in the chest after McGlocklin slowly sauntered up to him at a right angle (not even trotting). Since they were squarely facing each other, are you suggesting Drejka...is legally blind?

Still waiting for those super relevant NFL rules on shooting. Cause, you know, relevant
__________________
I am looking for other websites; you suck. -banned buttercake aficionado yuno44907

Last edited by Thermal; 25th July 2018 at 08:49 AM.
Thermal is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 08:57 AM   #232
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,271
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
What's to diminish? This is the thing, the shove was over, done, fineto, and even you agree that once the gun was drawn the incident was over...
wrong.

The victim was obviously dealing with a very violent man, half his age and much larger than him, and had just been violently shoved to the concrete.

While it is quite easy for one to drone on expertly about what happened after the attack, but it ain't that easy
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 08:58 AM   #233
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,303
Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
And if Florida has that BS rule that if you draw you must fire, well that really needs to go.
It doesn't.

The Law states that you can only threaten (e.g. draw a gun) or use deadly force (e.g. fire a gun) if there is a reasonable belief that your life is in imminent danger or you are about to suffer great bodily harm.

This means that there is certainly a case against warning shots (thought I would argue that's still a threat to use deadly force myself) but their is no case against merely presenting a firearm to deescalate a situation in which you have a reasonable believe you're about to be killed or seriously injured.

So even if you agree that the initial attack and what the attacker did prior to the gun being drawn amounted to a reasonable belief that the shooter was about to be killed or seriously harmed, that only justifies the drawing of the firearm.

Once the firearm was drawn, the attacker stopped, even stepped back, everyone here seemed to be in agreement there, even TBD agrees that the drawing of the gun ended the attack.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
and was stopped only because the gun was drawn
So at that point we have an angry, Adrenalin spiked hothead, who already had previously showed that he was hoping to shoot someone, decide to get revenge for being shoved to the ground, and fired.

That is not self defense, that is Murder 2/Manslaughter.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)

PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 08:58 AM   #234
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,551
The shooting victim parked illegally in a handicapped space. To say this 'started' the episode is beyond ridiculous. The shooter had no legal authority to take any action against illegal parking. None. The MOST he should have done is call the police NON-EMERGENCY number to report it. That's it. Any confrontation was [what turned out to be] an armed man stewing for a fight.

Then, the shooter starts yelling at the PASSENGER in the car. What control did she have over the choice of parking space? Why yell at a passenger that had no choice or control over where the car was parked? It is irrational on the face of it. The shooter began this by acting irrationally.

The victim came out of the store seeing an irrationally angry man yelling at his spousal unit. In such a highly charged state I can see how he may have pushed the shooter harder than intended when trying to push the shooter away from his spousal unit.

Then irrationally angry man gets angrier and pulls a gun and commits, minimally, manslaughter.
__________________
- "Who is the Greater Fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the Fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']
The Greater Fool is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 08:59 AM   #235
PhantomWolf
Penultimate Amazing
 
PhantomWolf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 17,303
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wrong.

The victim was obviously dealing with a very violent man, half his age and much larger than him, and had just been violently shoved to the concrete.

While it is quite easy for one to drone on expertly about what happened after the attack, but it ain't that easy
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
and was stopped only because the gun was drawn
Maybe you should argue with The Big Dog on this, he disagrees with you.
__________________

It must be fun to lead a life completely unburdened by reality. -- JayUtah
I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question. -- Charles Babbage (1791-1871)


Last edited by PhantomWolf; 25th July 2018 at 09:00 AM.
PhantomWolf is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 09:12 AM   #236
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,271
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
The shooting victim parked illegally in a handicapped space.
wrong.

Start from the beginning.
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 09:13 AM   #237
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,271
Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Maybe you should argue with The Big Dog on this, he disagrees with you.
No actually, there is no inconsistency, and if there were (and there was not) let me make it absolutely clear that the shooting was fully and necessary to stop the violent attack.
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 09:15 AM   #238
The Greater Fool
Illuminator
 
The Greater Fool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Scottsdale, AZ, USA, North America, Earth, Sol, Milky Way
Posts: 3,551
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wrong.

Start from the beginning.
I didn't expect meaningful argument, and you don't disappoint.

Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
The shooting victim parked illegally in a handicapped space. To say this 'started' the episode is beyond ridiculous. The shooter had no legal authority to take any action against illegal parking. None. The MOST he should have done is call the police NON-EMERGENCY number to report it. That's it. Any confrontation was [what turned out to be] an armed man stewing for a fight.

Then, the shooter starts yelling at the PASSENGER in the car. What control did she have over the choice of parking space? Why yell at a passenger that had no choice or control over where the car was parked? It is irrational on the face of it. The shooter began this by acting irrationally.

The victim came out of the store seeing an irrationally angry man yelling at his spousal unit. In such a highly charged state I can see how he may have pushed the shooter harder than intended when trying to push the shooter away from his spousal unit.

Then irrationally angry man gets angrier and pulls a gun and commits, minimally, manslaughter.
__________________
- "Who is the Greater Fool? The fool? Or the one arguing with the Fool?" [Various; Uknown]
- "The only way to win is not to play." [Tsig quoting 'War Games']
The Greater Fool is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 09:17 AM   #239
The Big Dog
Penultimate Amazing
 
The Big Dog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 25,271
Originally Posted by The Greater Fool View Post
I didn't expect meaningful argument, and you don't disappoint.
Meaningful? Get your facts straight. The very first line was wrong.

protip: he wasn't the driver.
__________________
"these autistics preferred to back a woman who aligns herself with white supremacy." These autistics.

- Cyrée Jarelle Johnson The Root
The Big Dog is online now   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 25th July 2018, 09:24 AM   #240
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader
TLA Dictator
 
Foolmewunz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Pattaya, Thailand
Posts: 38,580
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No actually, there is no inconsistency, and if there were (and there was not) let me make it absolutely clear that the shooting was fully and necessary to stop the violent attack.
Nonsense. You said yourself that the drawing of the gun stopped the attack. At that point you say, "Back all the way off or I'll shoot" or something similar. He drew the gun, the guy backed away and/or certainly didn't make any forward motion whatsoever, and Quickdraw shot him. AFTER THE GUY STOPPED ANYTHING LIKE AN ATTACK.

That is all there is to it. Cops who shoot guys reaching for their ID have a better defense than this because there's no way this guy should have felt threatened. He had the drop on the guy. The guy had no visible weapon and was not reaching for one. The guy ceased anything remotely like aggressive motion.
__________________
Ha! Foolmewunz has just been added to the list of people who aren't complete idiots. Hokulele

It's not that liberals have become less tolerant. It's that conservatives have become more intolerable.
Foolmewunz is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Social Issues & Current Events

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 09:34 AM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.

This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.