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Old 25th July 2018, 09:24 AM   #241
Thermal
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wrong.

Start from the beginning.
"...you see, the Colonies needed a source of cheap labor..."
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:25 AM   #242
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A couple observations: that's like the worst handicapped spot I've ever seen. Usually, they are spots closest to the door. This one seems to be the one farthest from the door. My wife has a handicapped placard. She would not have used the space.

The shooter arrived well after the victim was in the store. What he saw was someone waiting in the car parked in the handicapped space. He had no idea if the person who got out of the car was handicapped or not, so he had no reason to check. But I guess he likes to make sure that the able-bodied people park in the good spaces and that the crappy space with a longer walk is left open for disabled people.

Not all aggression is physical. Confronting someone to berate them about their parking is also aggressive.

Looking at the video, the victim did not approach the shooter aggressively. He did not run up on him, tackle him, etc. He walked up and a normal pace. I find it hard to believe that the shooter could have been unaware of a person approaching from that angle at that speed. If he was unaware, he has really bad peripheral vision. (Should people with vision problems carry guns?)

Timeline: The shove happens at 2:48. After which the victim stands a few feet away with hands on hips and says something to the shooter (who has his head up and is looking at him by this time. (This is at 2:50.) At 2:51, the shooter reaches back and draws his gun. (Eyes are on the victim the whole time.) Victim is not moving forward. In fact, he starts moving back as the shooter reaches for the gun. At 2:52 victim has taken a couple steps back and shooter has gun pointed up at him. at 2:53, victim has fully retreated all the way back to the car and has turned his shoulders to the right, starting motion back towards the sidewalk and the store. At 2:54, victim has stepped with his left foot towards the store. It is at this point, the shooter fires.

The shot was taken three seconds after the victim began his retreat (which the shooter clearly saw) and two seconds after the shooter had fully drawn the gun and trained it on the victim. The idea that this happened quickly with no time to assess is BS. I might buy that if the shooter had fired immediately after drawing the gun, but that didn't happen. It happened two full seconds later. That's really a fairly long time.

I don't believe he fired in self-defense. I believe he fired in anger.
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:32 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post

Looking at the video, the victim did not approach the shooter aggressively. He did not run up on him, tackle him, etc. He walked up and a normal pace. .
Another post deliberately diminishing the violence of the physical attack.

It is odd how an argument withe Handicap spot Squatter is "aggressive" but the next sentence is how he walked up at a normal pace, didn't tackle him, etc.

He would up and blind sided him. You want to break down the video? See where the victim was standing before the blind side and where he ended up after the aggressive physical attack left him sprawled on the ground.
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:34 AM   #244
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For what its worth, the few conservative folks I listen to think this should go to court.
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:36 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Another post deliberately diminishing the violence of the physical attack.

It is odd how an argument withe Handicap spot Squatter is "aggressive" but the next sentence is how he walked up at a normal pace, didn't tackle him, etc.

He would up and blind sided him. You want to break down the video? See where the victim was standing before the blind side and where he ended up after the aggressive physical attack left him sprawled on the ground.
I agree that many are deliberately diminishing the violence of the physical attack, and I even agree it was likely that the attack was going to continue, but as you said the appearance of the gun changed everything. And that's the most important part of the discussion, isn't it?

You yourself said that the attack stopped after the gun was in view, and I agree. The attacker was clearly backing off when he was shot, and it wasn't even close. (Of course, I am watching the video on the Internet, not having just been blindsided and knocked to the ground.)
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:37 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
A couple observations: that's like the worst handicapped spot I've ever seen. Usually, they are spots closest to the door. This one seems to be the one farthest from the door. My wife has a handicapped placard. She would not have used the space.

The shooter arrived well after the victim was in the store. What he saw was someone waiting in the car parked in the handicapped space. He had no idea if the person who got out of the car was handicapped or not, so he had no reason to check. But I guess he likes to make sure that the able-bodied people park in the good spaces and that the crappy space with a longer walk is left open for disabled people.
Just a note on the handicapped spot: it kind of looks like a strip mall layout, so the handicapped curb cutout/ramp may be central to other locations
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:39 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
For what its worth, the few conservative folks I listen to think this should go to court.
Whats the count on this thread for those who don't?

TBD
Skeptic Tank (assuming)
logger

anyone else?
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:41 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
ITT: people having no idea what being in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury means. Not even a single strong shove that knocks you on your keister is deadly serious, nor is thinking it might theoretically resume and escalate.

Don't be under any delusions. Every single person damage controlling the shooter in the thread is a known racist from other threads in this forum.

If the victim was the 50 year old white man and the shooter was the 25 year old black man they would not be claiming that a shove is sufficient fear for ones life.
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:43 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Whats the count on this thread for those who don't?

TBD

anyone else?
I actually have not commented much about the legal aspects, other than perhaps the "community" will likely ratchet up the political pressure and the DA will end hauling the guy into court, where he will get off, and the community will end up burning down the convenience store.
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:45 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Whats the count on this thread for those who don't?

TBD
Skeptic Tank (assuming)
logger

anyone else?
I'm not familiar with the Florida laws enough to have an opinion.

Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Don't be under any delusions. Every single person damage controlling the shooter in the thread is a known racist from other threads in this forum.
LOL! "Known racist" doesn't mean much on this forum.
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:46 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Whats the count on this thread for those who don't?

TBD
Skeptic Tank (assuming)
logger

anyone else?
I should clarify, the conservative pundits. I thought it was worth noting that even some folks of influence that support stand your ground think ti should shown in a court that ground needed to be stood. Specifically Ben Shapiro.
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:47 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
If the victim was the 50 year old white man and the shooter was the 25 year old black man they would not be claiming that a shove is sufficient fear for ones life.
Just so we can wrap our heads around this hypothetical, the 50 year old guy shoves the much larger 25 year old, who is lifted off his feet and sent sprawling on the concrete several feet away from where he was standing?

Under that hypothetical, like here (where the attacker was the younger bigger guy) that would be a proper case of self defense.
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:47 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I actually have not commented much about the legal aspects, other than perhaps the "community" will likely ratchet up the political pressure and the DA will end hauling the guy into court, where he will get off, and the community will end up burning down the convenience store.
You're just here for the race riots. Check.
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:48 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by sir drinks-a-lot View Post
I'm not familiar with the Florida laws enough to have an opinion.
That is why I did not list you.
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Old 25th July 2018, 09:51 AM   #255
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You're just here for the race riots. Check.
Nope, just threading things through to their conclusion based on other not dissimilar situations.
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:10 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Nope, just threading things through to their conclusion based on other not dissimilar situations.
Like football rules
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:13 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Like football rules
Don't play the game if you don't know the rules!
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:19 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
He would up and blind sided him. You want to break down the video? See where the victim was standing before the blind side and where he ended up after the aggressive physical attack left him sprawled on the ground.

What's the minimum amount of physical confrontation to warrant deadly response?
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:21 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Don't play the game if you don't know the rules!
I await a cite for unsportsmanlike conduct rules to further flesh out the legal nuances here
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:22 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
What's the minimum amount of physical confrontation to warrant deadly response?
Sub Saharan ancestry?
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:26 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I await a cite for unsportsmanlike conduct rules to further flesh out the legal nuances here
My money is on "clipping" since he attacked him from behind.
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:29 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
My money is on "clipping" since he attacked him from behind.
Roughing the killer?
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:31 AM   #263
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Klans-lining?
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:32 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I await a cite for unsportsmanlike conduct rules to further flesh out the legal nuances here
O dear, did I miss a "cite" to the " definition" you have attempted to foist on this thread....?

Scans thread....

No it does not appear that I have. Hmmm.

Say, while driving a car, one typically refers to the side of the car as the blind side or blind spot, not the "opposite" side or "rear."
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:34 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Klans-lining?
You may need to take a knee after that one.



But not on a football field, you ungrateful bastard . . .
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:36 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
O dear, did I miss a "cite" to the " definition" you have attempted to foist on this thread....?

Scans thread....

No it does not appear that I have. Hmmm.

Say, while driving a car, one typically refers to the side of the car as the blind side or blind spot, not the "opposite" side or "rear."
Yes. Your blind spot is behind you. Not facing you or even at right angles. 'Behind you' encompasses about 180 degrees, plus or minus. None of those degrees are squarely in front of you.
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:39 AM   #267
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Originally Posted by bignickel View Post
In TBD's argument, if you come out to your car and see someone yelling at your spouse, and you push the guy away and he falls to the ground, then you're an "attacker" and you're "attacking" him. And killing you is justified for shoving the guy away from your vehicle with spouse inside.

Seriously, why is anyone engaging with this troll? Am I the only one getting a Russian accent here?
I'm told by many white friends that such opinions are commonly heard at holiday feasts by older relatives, so I'm getting more of a drunken slurred southern accent.
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:40 AM   #268
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I should clarify, the conservative pundits. I thought it was worth noting that even some folks of influence that support stand your ground think ti should shown in a court that ground needed to be stood. Specifically Ben Shapiro.
I wouldn't be shocked to hear similar from Schmitt, or the Reagan Battalion group (known for ousting that Milo creep from CPAC)
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:40 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes. Your blind spot is behind you. Not facing you or even at right angles. 'Behind you' encompasses about 180 degrees, plus or minus. None of those degrees are squarely in front of you.
Guess you meant "178 degrees" hmmm...

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Old 25th July 2018, 10:40 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Doesn't matter, the shove had already happened and was done. You can't shot someone for an attack that has ended.

If I walk up behind you and whack you in the head with a baseball bat and then drop it and step back, you aren't entitled to draw your gun and shoot me, because the attack is clearly over. Doing so is not self defense, it's a revenge murder.

Same thing is someone is charging you with a knife and you shoot them in the shoulder dropping them to the floor. You can't then walk over and put three more bullets in them and claim self defense.

The shooter had enough time between drawing and firing to see that the guy was backing away, he was no longer a threat once the gun was draw. Without a reasonable imminent threat to his life or of serious bodily harm, the shooter no longer can claim that the shot was fired in self defense.

That reasonable threat to him had passed before he fired, thus it's murder.
The SYG law in Florida doesn't give the option of what you would have thought, or what a cop thought afterwards. It only gives them the option of using what the shooter was thinking at the time of shooting. You might think the guy was turning away, a cop might think the gun alone would have deterred further assault. But, the shooter, after just being blindsided and shoved to the ground, and listening to what the assailant was saying, may have thought he was coming back for a head kick, or turning to grab a weapon. That is all they can go by if it is reasonable to believe.
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:42 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The SYG law in Florida doesn't give the option of what you would have thought, or what a cop thought afterwards. It only gives them the option of using what the shooter was thinking at the time of shooting. You might think the guy was turning away, a cop might think the gun alone would have deterred further assault. But, the shooter, after just being blindsided and shoved to the ground, and listening to what the assailant was saying, may have thought he was coming back for a head kick, or turning to grab a weapon. That is all they can go by if it is reasonable to believe.
Surely they can view the video to determine "if it is reasonable".
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:44 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Guess you meant "178 degrees" hmmm...

You forgot to hilite 'about' and 'plus or minus', coach. Can we shoot the offensive line on the next play, coach?
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:45 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
The SYG law in Florida doesn't give the option of what you would have thought, or what a cop thought afterwards. It only gives them the option of using what the shooter was thinking at the time of shooting. You might think the guy was turning away, a cop might think the gun alone would have deterred further assault. But, the shooter, after just being blindsided and shoved to the ground, and listening to what the assailant was saying, may have thought he was coming back for a head kick, or turning to grab a weapon. That is all they can go by if it is reasonable to believe.
Isn't that what a jury should determine and not the sheriff?
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:45 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Surely they can view the video to determine "if it is reasonable".
No, because the video doesn't have audio, and the camera is not in a vulnerable position on the ground after just getting violently shoved to the ground.
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:48 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Disbelief View Post
Isn't that what a jury should determine and not the sheriff?
After interviewing the man who was just blindsided and shoved violently to the ground, can you say for certain that the man was not in fear for his life?
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:49 AM   #276
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Why would you take a case to the jury where the cops investigating all agree that the man who shot, thought his life was in danger?
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Old 25th July 2018, 10:50 AM   #277
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You forgot to hilite 'about' and 'plus or minus', coach. Can we shoot the offensive line on the next play, coach?
then they could have been coming at "right angles" then?

Oh dear, it would appear that one has been hoisted on own's own petard...

Blindside mean on the "side" "plus or minus."

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Old 25th July 2018, 10:56 AM   #278
rdwight
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
After interviewing the man who was just blindsided and shoved violently to the ground, can you say for certain that the man was not in fear for his life?
Who cares? Would a reasonable person after being shoved, with no continued attack and the aggressor backing away fear that deadly force was necessary? Is that honestly reasonable to you? I'd say a jury really needs to decide that, not a sheriff.
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Old 25th July 2018, 11:02 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
No, because the video doesn't have audio, and the camera is not in a vulnerable position on the ground after just getting violently shoved to the ground.
So they have to ignore evidence if it is not perfect evidence?
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Old 25th July 2018, 11:03 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Why would you take a case to the jury where the cops investigating all agree that the man who shot, thought his life was in danger?
Because a jury should decide if that belief is reasonable.
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