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Old 25th July 2018, 11:17 AM   #281
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They can't even arrest him. Unless they can provide clear and convincing evidence that the person didn't think they were in imminent danger. I agree this is a questionable use of the SYG law. But, I have no way to overcome the shooter's claim that he thought he was in danger. The video of the violent push is enough for me to believe his claim that he thought he was.

Quote:
once a prima facie claim of self-defense immunity from criminal prosecution has been raised by the defendant at a pretrial immunity hearing, the burden of proof by clear and convincing evidence is on the party seeking to overcome the immunity from criminal prosecution provided in subsection
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Old 25th July 2018, 11:21 AM   #282
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I am not sure why no one has pointed out that Florida's SYG has two parts. I have seen the second portion quoted but not the first -

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(1) A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. A person who uses or threatens to use force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat before using or threatening to use such force.
That sure sounds a hell of a lot more like the situation than the second. And there is a reason there are two parts to the law. Ignoring the first part to justify the second as if it is the only option seems.. yea. A guy that shoved you and is no longer attacking, nor advancing, seems to come pretty short of a reasonable fear of death or serious injury.

Anyone that can watch that video and feel deadly force was justified and reasonable is beyond my level of understanding.
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Old 25th July 2018, 11:27 AM   #283
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
then they could have been coming at "right angles" then?

Oh dear, it would appear that one has been hoisted on own's own petard...

Blindside mean on the "side" "plus or minus."

All'alba vincer˛!
VincerÓ!
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So if you get hit on the side, that's a blindside, coach? And we can open fire, coach? We've been practicing target shooting on the sidelines, coach.
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Old 25th July 2018, 11:37 AM   #284
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
They can't even arrest him. Unless they can provide clear and convincing evidence that the person didn't think they were in imminent danger. I agree this is a questionable use of the SYG law. But, I have no way to overcome the shooter's claim that he thought he was in danger. The video of the violent push is enough for me to believe his claim that he thought he was.
The applicable legal standard is not whether that person feared for his life. The applicable legal standard is whether a reasonable person in that situation would have had a fear for his life.
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Old 25th July 2018, 11:38 AM   #285
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So if you get hit on the side, that's a blindside, coach? And we can open fire, coach? We've been practicing target shooting on the sidelines, coach.
That's the bizarre thing about this whole "blindsided" discussion. It has no relevance, legally or morally.
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Old 25th July 2018, 11:46 AM   #286
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's the bizarre thing about this whole "blindsided" discussion. It has no relevance, legally or morally.
Of course it does, as I have already explained, it was an unprovoked attack on someone who was in no position to defend himself.

this should be obvious.
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Old 25th July 2018, 11:49 AM   #287
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Of course it does, as I have already explained, it was an unprovoked attack on someone who was in no position to defend himself.

this should be obvious.

What, in your opinion, is the minimum amount of contact / violence that warrants deadly response?
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Old 25th July 2018, 11:52 AM   #288
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
who is lifted off his feet and sent sprawling on the concrete several feet away from where he was standing

None of that happened.
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Old 25th July 2018, 11:54 AM   #289
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
What's the minimum amount of physical confrontation to warrant deadly response?
Sub Saharan ancestry?

ding ding ding ding!!

We have a winner.
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Old 25th July 2018, 12:00 PM   #290
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
Why would you take a case to the jury where the cops investigating all agree that the man who shot, thought his life was in danger?

Because of a history of racism.
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Old 25th July 2018, 12:02 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
They can't even arrest him. Unless they can provide clear and convincing evidence that the person didn't think they were in imminent danger.

Therefore, in Florida, according to Drewbot, you can kill anyone you want to as long as you are alone with that person with no witnesses.

That or Drewbot is wrong... hmmm. I wonder which one it is.
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Old 25th July 2018, 12:12 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
None of that happened.
Everyone

Ignore the scene from 1:36 to 1:42 on this video, I was told none of it happened

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=sqPb...651&theme_id=0

well argued.
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Old 25th July 2018, 12:14 PM   #293
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Of course it does, as I have already explained, it was an unprovoked attack on someone who was in no position to defend himself.

this should be obvious.
The someone who wad in no position to defend himself is currently cleaning his gun
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Old 25th July 2018, 12:17 PM   #294
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
The applicable legal standard is not whether that person feared for his life. The applicable legal standard is whether a reasonable person in that situation would have had a fear for his life.
Extremely important distinction, often overlooked
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Old 25th July 2018, 12:18 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Of course it does, as I have already explained, it was an unprovoked attack on someone who was in no position to defend himself.

That is incorrect. It was neither unprovoked nor an attack. The shove was not an attack. It was a shove in defense of his spouse. The shove was not unprovoked. It was provoked by the shooter verbally attacking his wife.


Remember, the witness ran into the store yelling that someone is messing with the woman in the car. The spouse would have no idea if his wife was merely being verbally abused or perhaps in the middle of a robbery. The spouse had more than enough information to push the shooter away from her.

Especially considering there were 2 babies in the car with her.

Everyone should note that the people doing damage control for the shooter in this thread consider 5 seconds to be not enough time for the shooter to think; but 5 seconds is also how much time the spouse had to think when running outside to protect her.
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Old 25th July 2018, 12:21 PM   #296
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Everyone

Ignore the scene from 1:36 to 1:42 on this video, I was told none of it happened

https://www.liveleak.com/view?t=sqPb...651&theme_id=0

well argued.


The man shoving the shooter to protect his family happened.

Your description of it, on the other hand, did not.
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Old 25th July 2018, 12:23 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
That is incorrect. It was neither unprovoked nor an attack. The shove was not an attack. It was a shove in defense of his spouse. The shove was not unprovoked. It was provoked by the shooter verbally attacking his wife.


Remember, the witness ran into the store yelling that someone is messing with the woman in the car. The spouse would have no idea if his wife was merely being verbally abused or perhaps in the middle of a robbery. The spouse had more than enough information to push the shooter away from her.

Especially considering there were 2 babies in the car with her.

Everyone should note that the people doing damage control for the shooter in this thread consider 5 seconds to be not enough time for the shooter to think; but 5 seconds is also how much time the spouse had to think when running outside to protect her.
They were not married. Is this the type of fact free analysis we should continue to expect, because you just claimed that the shove wasn't an attack, he wasn't sent sprawling on the concrete several feet away from where he was standing (despite a video clearly and unmistakably showing those facts) and are now claiming that getting into an argument is sufficient provocation for the "push."

I gotta tell you, thanks for making my case for me!

Fantastic
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Old 25th July 2018, 12:36 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
They were not married.


Sure, in a religious sense. Perhaps a legal sense as well, I'm not sure what the common law marriage rules are in Florida.

Also, it does not matter. It was his spouse in the family sense of the word.


Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Is this the type of fact free analysis we should continue to expect, because you just claimed that the shove wasn't an attack, he wasn't sent sprawling on the concrete several feet away from where he was standing (despite a video clearly and unmistakably showing those facts)

As already was explained, what did not happen was your description of the push, not the actual push.



Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
and are now claiming that getting into an argument is sufficient provocation for the "push."

Very much so. His spouse was under attack. It could have been a mugging for all he knows. You expect for him to wait for more information before reacting, but you do not expect the shooter to wait for more information before reacting. The only difference is their race.
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Old 25th July 2018, 12:41 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by This is The End View Post
Sure, in a religious sense. Perhaps a legal sense as well, I'm not sure what the common law marriage rules are in Florida.

Also, it does not matter. It was his spouse in the family sense of the word.





As already was explained, what did not happen was your description of the push, not the actual push.






Very much so. His spouse was under attack. It could have been a mugging for all he knows. You expect for him to wait for more information before reacting, but you do not expect the shooter to wait for more information before reacting. The only difference is their race.
She wasn't his spouse, but she was his spouse.
He pushed him, but he didn't "push' him.
I should expect the guy sprawled out on the concrete to 'wait for more information," but the deceased should not because his 'spouse' was 'under attack."

This gotta be a Poe, am I right?
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Old 25th July 2018, 12:41 PM   #300
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Fifty years ago the machismo was 'them's fightin words' and now it's 'I was terrified for my life'. What the hell happened?
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Old 25th July 2018, 12:47 PM   #301
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Fifty years ago the machismo was 'them's fightin words' and now it's 'I was terrified for my life'. What the hell happened?
Fox News
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Old 25th July 2018, 12:49 PM   #302
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Fifty years ago the machismo was 'them's fightin words' and now it's 'I was terrified for my life'. What the hell happened?
Can I show you the new line of Glocks?
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Old 25th July 2018, 12:51 PM   #303
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
She wasn't his spouse, but she was his spouse.
He pushed him, but he didn't "push' him.
I should expect the guy sprawled out on the concrete to 'wait for more information," but the deceased should not because his 'spouse' was 'under attack."

This gotta be a Poe, am I right?
Why should their legal marital status affect anything?
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Old 25th July 2018, 12:55 PM   #304
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Why should their legal marital status affect anything?
It would appear that question is better asked to the person who keeps claiming it, would it not?

It would appear that the person who keeps claiming it is raising it as some sort of mitigation for or an excuse for the fact that attacker sent the victim sprawling on the concrete (which he appears to believe did not happen at all or something, got lost with all the factual errors being made).
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Old 25th July 2018, 01:17 PM   #305
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
It would appear that question is better asked to the person who keeps claiming it, would it not?

It would appear that the person who keeps claiming it is raising it as some sort of mitigation for or an excuse for the fact that attacker sent the victim sprawling on the concrete (which he appears to believe did not happen at all or something, got lost with all the factual errors being made).
S/he is saying spouse as a covienient shorthand for 'domestic/romantic partner and mother of his children'. Why would you feel the need to correct this inconsequential detail?
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Old 25th July 2018, 01:30 PM   #306
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Can anyone that is defending the shooting explain to my why there are 2 parts to the SYG law in Florida, one that includes deadly force and one that does not? If any physical altercation can 'reasonably' allow deadly force, why were they segmented out separately? This seems like something that had a purpose that is no longer actually followed.

I hate this 'could have' or 'what if' justifications. Objectively looking at the law, there is a distinction and one that really should be followed. If someone has a weapon, is continuing an assault or something of that nature, than that is a situation where the second portion of SYG should be applied.

A situation like this where a single shove/punch/kick etc has occurred but no further attack is continuing, no weapon is brandished etc, the justification that 'maybe he was about to strike/he could have a gun/blah blah blah' nonsense obviously doesn't apply. A deadly threat is not imminent, no action at this point reaches a level beyond simple battery.
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Old 25th July 2018, 01:31 PM   #307
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Fifty years ago the machismo was 'them's fightin words' and now it's 'I was terrified for my life'. What the hell happened?
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Old 25th July 2018, 01:47 PM   #308
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
S/he is saying spouse as a covienient shorthand for 'domestic/romantic partner and mother of his children'. Why would you feel the need to correct this inconsequential detail?
Discrediting the larger point by focusing on the minutiae.

It is really all there is at this point. We are down to leasing degrees and legal relationships because dealing with the plain truth got too hard after it was admitted: the attack was over, as any reasonable person can see form the video evidence.
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Old 25th July 2018, 01:52 PM   #309
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Wait, if the woman needs protecting why is she getting out of the car seconds before the "push"?
I hope they check her cel phone records, I would not be surprised if she called boyfriend to come out and do a beat down on this annoying MF.
Does shoving someone to the ground constituit felony assault?
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Old 25th July 2018, 02:00 PM   #310
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
They can't even arrest him. Unless they can provide clear and convincing evidence that the person didn't think they were in imminent danger.
That is not true. The sheriff is wrong. They would arrest him.
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Old 25th July 2018, 02:02 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Discrediting the larger point by focusing on the minutiae.

It is really all there is at this point. We are down to leasing degrees and legal relationships because dealing with the plain truth got too hard after it was admitted: the attack was over, as any reasonable person can see form the video evidence.
Actually, as shown repeatedly in this thread, it is symptomatic of a much larger issue with people deliberately fudging and coloring the facts, so much so that we had someone denying that the shooter ended up sprawled on the ground.

In fact, i should not have to be the one to point this out.

When someone is deliberately repeating false statements as facts, don't be shy: step up and say something.

Like here: your subjective declaration that the "attack was over" is not a fact, it might be an opinion, it certainly is wrong, but not a fact.
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Old 25th July 2018, 02:02 PM   #312
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Originally Posted by Drewbot View Post
After interviewing the man who was just blindsided and shoved violently to the ground, can you say for certain that the man was not in fear for his life?
That is not the relevant legal standard.
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Old 25th July 2018, 02:09 PM   #313
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Like here: your subjective declaration that the "attack was over" is not a fact, it might be an opinion, it certainly is wrong, but not a fact.
I was relying entirely on your reporting for that fact. Please tell me I can continue to do so.
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Old 25th July 2018, 02:15 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
That is not the relevant legal standard.
It is if you ignore enough of the words. Just gloss over them. It's easy.
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Old 25th July 2018, 02:17 PM   #315
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
wrong, the attack had not ended, the attacker was coming in for stomping time, and was stopped only because the gun was drawn, plus the whole thing lasted six seconds, and you are parsing out the moments after the victim got knocked on his ass? Ridiculous
You got it right already. Why does this thread continue?
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Old 25th July 2018, 02:37 PM   #316
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
You got it right already. Why does this thread continue?
Because some of us think it is funny when people try to deliberately mislead by taking a clause out of context.

WorldStar style stomping was stopped by a guy with a gun
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Old 25th July 2018, 02:39 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by kedo1981 View Post
Wait, if the woman needs protecting why is she getting out of the car seconds before the "push"?
I hope they check her cel phone records, I would not be surprised if she called boyfriend to come out and do a beat down on this annoying MF.
Does shoving someone to the ground constituit felony assault?
Speculation, but if she was feeling threatened and felt the severity of the threat was escalating, wouldn't being out of the car be more advantageous than being in it? Sitting duck and whatnot.
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Old 25th July 2018, 02:41 PM   #318
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Because some of us think it is funny when people try to deliberately mislead by taking a clause out of context.

WorldStar style stomping was stopped by a guy with a gun
You followed that first sentence with the second???

You need a permanent display in the Guggenheim for talent of this magnitude.
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Old 25th July 2018, 02:51 PM   #319
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Because some of us think it is funny when people try to deliberately mislead by taking a clause out of context.

WorldStar style stomping was stopped by a guy with a gun
You keep saying this without any evidence that this was the case.
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Old 25th July 2018, 02:54 PM   #320
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Originally Posted by TomB View Post
You keep saying this without any evidence that this was the case.
It is a direct inference from the video.
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