|
Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today. |
![]() |
#81 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,537
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#82 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,255
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#83 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 13,880
|
I hear you.
It is unfortunate that a lot of misinformation gets put out by people who would rather try to make the other person look foolish than admit that there are gaps in their own knowledge. Maybe when a blockchain puts Uber out of business we will get a better idea of what can and what can not be done with blockchain technology. |
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#84 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,528
|
None of these actually requires a blockchain. Without more detail on your proposed system it’s impossible to determine if the blockchain based system is better.
Most of the more experienced people here will have seen people who come in and say “I want to do X with [insert buzzword here], and when you question them why they want to do it that way they can only come up with vague handwaving. You’re inability to offer a detailed description of how and why you want to use blockchain is no doubt setting off alarm bells with many of failed projects imposed by non-technical senior managers or junior employees annoying everyone with poorly thought out proposals. It has never been and will never be possible to come up with an un-hackable system because no one can think up all the possible exploits up front. In general, though there are some things that are impossible to fully protect because as soon as you give people access to it malware has access as well. |
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen" |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#85 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 9,528
|
|
__________________
"Anything's possible, but only a few things actually happen" |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#86 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,088
|
Hackers break into voting machines within 2 hours at Defcon
Nopety-nope-nope. That old video I posted still holds true. The most secure system is the one that is the most transparent. You are never going to get that with electronic voting. |
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#87 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 13,880
|
At least, not as long as politicians and public servants are in charge of the specs. Get a team of the best experts in the world and you might see a different result.
I think I will stick to my original claim and leave you to deal with your strawman arguments by yourself. |
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#88 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,088
|
|
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#89 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central City, Colorado, USA
Posts: 8,485
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#90 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 13,880
|
|
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#91 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,088
|
|
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#92 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 15,992
|
Okay seriously data integrity is not some dark magic to computer users. There's entire fields dedicated to telling if data on a hard drive has been tampered with our modified.
This... frighteningly ignorant of how computers work. If you don't trust computer voting, fine but don't make up nonsense like this. |
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#93 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 13,880
|
|
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#94 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,088
|
Ha. You're missing several steps of the conversation.
Fine, then you can go back to my earlier question of how you or, more importantly, your average poll worker can tell if a voting machine has been tampered with just by looking at it. Not just the final count, but the interface that adjust the final count when the user inputs their vote. And not only on-site, but before the machine reached the polling place. |
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#95 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,088
|
You've addressed none them. Better technology or better experts does not fix the transparency problem you keep ignoring. The point of "seeing bits flipping" has to do with being able to see that votes are being calculated correctly. If you can't see that happening, you can't trust the count is accurate.
|
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#96 |
Self Employed
Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 15,992
|
You're mistaking (or deliberately misconstruing) not understanding the process for "transparency."
This is beneath first year, hell High School, hell grade school level, computer theory. This a caveman smashing a radio trying to find the tiny singer inside level of understanding. Computer storage is not magic that cannot be seen by the eyes of mortal men lest they turn to stone. |
__________________
- "Ernest Hemingway once wrote that the world is a fine place and worth fighting for. I agree with the second part." - Detective Sommerset - "Stupidity does not cancel out stupidity to yield genius. It breeds like a bucket-full of coked out hamsters." - The Oatmeal - "To the best of my knowledge the only thing philosophy has ever proven is that Descartes could think." - SMBC |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#97 |
Uncritical "thinker"
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 19,998
|
The transparency requirements make it so.
You need to have a system that most voters can understand and cqn trust. In addition, you need a system where fraud can be investigated, which means having the ability to trace votes to voters in exceptional circumstances, whilst preserving anonymity in normal situations. With pencils and paper, this is straightforward - you keep the ballot papers with a unique ID , but ensure that nobody does the analysis to link the id to the voter, or even the ID to the vote. With an electronic system, the link is there, and you need to trust that it's not hacked, which is far harder than controlling physical storage. |
__________________
OECD healthcare spending Expenditure on healthcare http://www.oecd.org/els/health-systems/health-data.htm link is 2015 data (2013 Data below): UK 8.5% of GDP of which 83.3% is public expenditure - 7.1% of GDP is public spending US 16.4% of GDP of which 48.2% is public expenditure - 7.9% of GDP is public spending |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#98 |
Begging for Scraps
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 20 minutes in the future
Posts: 1,875
|
And also hope that the supplier didn't install remote access software on the machines used to tabulate the results.
|
__________________
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” - Charles Darwin ...like so many contemporary philosophers he especially enjoyed giving helpful advice to people who were happier than he was. - Tom Lehrer |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#99 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,088
|
Funny story, you know what else is they teach you in high school? Reading comprehension, context, and the difference between metaphors and literal statements.
Now, I know how storage works. Do you know how to read a thread and draw meaning from it? Let's put aside the ad-homs and discuss the topic, shall we? *ahem* Transparency is being able to quickly and easily verify that the vote being entered into the interface matches what is being added to the voting tally. With paper ballots, this is done by having two or more people, usually from different parties, present to verify that each voter only enters one ballot into the secure ballot box and that no one opens the box until it reaches the place where the votes are counted. Again, counted by two or more people. When you add a voting machine into the mix, there is now a blackbox mechanism between the voter and their vote entering the secure storage mechanism (blockchain, or whatever). None of the poll workers present can quickly or easily verify that what the voter chose was entered into the storage mechanism or how many times. There is no way to verify that the machine has not been tampered without a thorough audit of the machine's code and, if you want to be really paranoid, the machine's hardware. This is neither quick nor easy and almost certainly beyond the capabilities of your average poll worker. So, you might argue, we could simply produce completely secure, unhackable voting machines. That's great, but how do you verify that it is unhackable and how can you assure the machine is not be hacked once the machine has left the control of the person/people who verified it? Let's be honest, it naive in the extreme to believe that a device can never be hacked, especially when there is a possibility that it is in the physical control of unknown people. |
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#100 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 20,388
|
|
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#101 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,088
|
|
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#102 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Jan 2002
Posts: 12,282
|
I think the biggest problem with electronic voting: You can't eat your ballot.
From: https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opin...article727139/ ...there have been some Canadians in previous elections who wanted to use their vote for protest. "They don't want to vote and they go and they take their ballot and they eat it," she said. I mean, how are you doing to do that sort of thing if everything is electronic? |
__________________
Trust me, I know what I'm doing. - Sledgehammer I'm Mary Poppin's Y'all! - Yondu We are Groot - Groot |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#103 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,088
|
|
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#104 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 20,388
|
|
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#105 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,941
|
Companies have admitted to installing remote access on their machines with the same password (abcde) for all their machines. At a hacking convention every brand of machine was hacked in less than a day. Security experts have testified that short of examining the source code of the machines there is no way to tell whether the result is authentic. Source code is propriety information and generally isn't allowed to be examined and audits are rarely conducted. When Georgia had some sketchy results and information was requested they deleted the data, and the backup data.
Maybe most electronic voting machines are fine, but why in the world would anyone just trust that when this concerns our elections. Unless the source code can be independently verified and audits are allowed by any party at their own expense, electronic voting machines shouldn't be used at all. |
__________________
Straw Man, Ad Hominem, Moving the Goalposts, and a massive post count are all good indicators that a poster is intellectually dishonest and not interested in real discussion. Feeding trolls only makes them stronger, yet it is so hard to refrain. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#106 |
Skeptical about skeptics
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: 31°57'S 115°57'E
Posts: 13,880
|
|
__________________
"The process by which banks create money is so simple that the mind is repelled. Where something so important is involved, a deeper mystery seems only decent." - Galbraith, 1975 |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#107 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,088
|
|
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#108 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,088
|
|
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#109 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,941
|
People can tamper with paper ballots too. That's why there are multiple parties that watch and count them to minimize the risk of funny business. Why couldn't something similar be done with the electronic voting machines? Make remote access not possible on any machines. Let the source code be checked beforehand and once polls close have multiple parties watch or in some way secure the machines to make sure no modifications are done. If any party that analyzes the information thinks results have been tampered with they request the audit and that machine is checked. No system is perfect, but that would give me greater confidence in them
|
__________________
Straw Man, Ad Hominem, Moving the Goalposts, and a massive post count are all good indicators that a poster is intellectually dishonest and not interested in real discussion. Feeding trolls only makes them stronger, yet it is so hard to refrain. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#110 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 20,388
|
Totally true.
Who's going to check it? And how do you know whoever that is isn't in someone's pocket? The average Joe can easily audit paper ballots. Not much expertise is required The same cannot be said about electronic voting. Only a handful of people are qualified to comb through thousands, maybe millions of lines of code. The problem with electronic voting is trust. Not so much with the technology, but the people implementing it. |
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#111 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,088
|
Okay, so, you find a tampered machine. Then what? The polls are closed. The election is over. All the votes cast on those machines are invalidated and thrown away?
Strategic tampering-and-get-caught could be just as effective of a strategy as straight up vote hacking. You defeat that by having two people do the audit on every machine. Which, of course, compounds the problem of the scarcity of expertise. To make matters worse, you have to check each machine in person and then you don't know that the machine isn't tampered with after the auditors leave. Things like blockchain are cool and all, but it doesn't solve the fundamental problems with electronic voting. The online banking model might make it seem like you could pull off online voting, but it breaks down that when something malicious happens with online banking, there is a history and "paper" trail you can follow to make sure everything is correct.. There is no personal auditing of one's voting history that your vote counted the way you expected it to. Even if there was, what happens? Once the election has been certified, do you go back and re-open the election to recount that votes based on corrected history? |
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#112 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 20,388
|
|
__________________
“ A wise man proportions his belief to the evidence. ” ― David Hume |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#113 |
Nasty Woman
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 71,540
|
That's the trouble: Then what?
|
__________________
Restore checks and balances no matter your party affiliation. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#114 |
Begging for Scraps
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 20 minutes in the future
Posts: 1,875
|
I've been known to do some rude doodles or write "They're all wankers" as a means to deliberately spoil my ballot. I'm of the opinion that while not voting can be a protest it's hard to differentiate between protest or laziness.
Rein in the change for the sake of change. Identify what problems it's meant to solve and look at other ways to solve them |
__________________
“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, and not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.” - Charles Darwin ...like so many contemporary philosophers he especially enjoyed giving helpful advice to people who were happier than he was. - Tom Lehrer |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#115 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,088
|
The OP was referring to online voting, not just electronic voting, which is way more vulnerable. However, I would presume that the problem it meant to solve is voter turnout/participation. A very worthwhile goal.
I think a better approach, instead of adding complexity and vulnerability to the voting system, would be to (1) declare a national holiday on voting day, (2) legally enforce a ...4? hour window employers must allow their employees off in order to vote, and (3) allow on-site voter registration with a provisional ballot. Remove the barriers to voting. |
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#116 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,255
|
It's all just too onerous compared with pencil and paper. It's like designing an uncheatable test for the JREF MDC.
Every voting machine's hardware and software would have to be checked and verified and then it would have to be treated like a piece of legal evidence with a full chain of custody not only up to the election but until it was clear no recount or other check was needed. And every step in the chain of custody of every machine needs at least two people from opposing parties. That's crazy, but that's what you need to be as good as pencil and paper. Yes, you can make parts of the system completely unhackable but people just look for other vulnerabilities. Rather like cars with uncrackable keys, thinking that will end car theft is just hubris; car thieves become burglars and steal keys instead. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#117 |
![]() Join Date: May 2002
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 31,088
|
MDC?
|
__________________
"There is nothing more deceptive than an obvious fact." -- Sherlock Holmes. "It’s easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled." -- Mark Twain, maybe. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#118 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,255
|
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#119 |
Master Poster
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 2,941
|
|
__________________
Straw Man, Ad Hominem, Moving the Goalposts, and a massive post count are all good indicators that a poster is intellectually dishonest and not interested in real discussion. Feeding trolls only makes them stronger, yet it is so hard to refrain. |
|
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
#120 |
Safely Ignored
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,255
|
And more cheaply, because most people can count, whereas people with serious computer expertise expect to charge a lot for their time.
On the upside, since it's a task almost anyone could do, it's sufficiently easy to recruit unpaid volunteers to count pieces of paper that you can have lots of them checking each others work. |
![]() ![]() |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
![]() |
Bookmarks |
Thread Tools | |
|
|