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Old 3rd August 2018, 06:00 AM   #201
Mongrel
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What could be more transparent than a block chain?

Other than that you are saying that if certain problems were overcome then they wouldn't be overcome.
What sort of blockchainWP? Which sort do you think the government would want?

We're saying that once certain problems are overcome you've addressed that problem, there's still a pile of other problems over there which have yet to be solved
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Old 3rd August 2018, 06:19 AM   #202
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There is a line from Harry Potter that I always thought summed up computer security perfectly:
Quote:
The Prime Minister gazed hopelessly at the pair of them for a moment, then the words he had fought to suppress all evening burst from him at last.
“But for heaven’s sake — you’re wizards! You can do magic! Surely you can sort out — well — anything!”
Scrimgeour turned slowly on the spot and exchanged an incredulous look with Fudge, who really did manage a smile this time as he said kindly, “The trouble is, the other side can do magic too, Prime Minister.”
From Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince, Chapter 1 - "The Other Minister"

No matter what solutions anyone comes up with, it is only ever a matter of time before it can be compromised. Security is a technological and psychological arms race with, really, no end. Any move over to online voting would immediately become a giant international target. The question is, as I asked above, how much of an increase in voter fraud would be acceptable for the convenience? Because there is no question that voter fraud would constantly be on the rise.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 07:34 AM   #203
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I'm a long time computer programmer with some interest in security; for example, I have a good understanding of how public/private key infrastructure works and how SSL/TLS works. I also read Bruce Schneier's Schneier on Security blog. I heartily agree with most posters here who posit that it's pretty much impossible to completely secure an e-voting process end-to-end.

Having said that, Estonia has had e-voting in general elections for over a decade now. [wikipedia].

Now, there is one huge difference between Estonia and the US: the e-voting system works in part because Estonia has a mandatory national ID card. The physical card is a smart card with an embedded cryptographic microprocessor. Try selling that in the States!
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Old 3rd August 2018, 07:37 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Now, there is one huge difference between Estonia and the US: the e-voting system works in part because Estonia has a mandatory national ID card. The physical card is a smart card with an embedded cryptographic microprocessor. Try selling that in the States!
Maybe we could use the photo ID required to buy groceries?
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Old 3rd August 2018, 07:45 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Maybe we could use the photo ID required to buy groceries?
Or your SSN - no one knows that, right
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Old 3rd August 2018, 07:59 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
The UK has a system that is robust with effective anonymity unless an investigation is required when the paper trail can be looked into.

I have no doubt that nobody could find how I voted unless there was a court order.

pencil and paper FTW.
The system is supposed to be able to prevent even this. I'm dubious if a court in a common law jurisdiction is competent to even ask this.


I'm not sure whether I am misunderstanding what you are saying here - so apologies if I am going off on the wrong track.


There have been (few) occasions* in the UK where attempted double voting, voting as another person, or ballot tampering have been investigated

https://www.electoralcommission.org....a-and-analysis


It would be possible with the UK system to tie a particular vote to a particular person - we vote with numbered ballot papers and the number is recorded when we collect the ballot paper in the polling station. This would allow checking for ballot paper tampering, but it wouldn't be an easy job, and except in very particular circumstances the cross reference will not be performed. It would be easier to see whether a person's vote had been used (i.e. to check for possible personation, or double voting).


*In 2017, there were 104 alleged voting offences.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 08:08 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
Or your SSN - no one knows that, right
At the school where I went to college, that was your student ID. It was used everywhere - to buy stuff at the cafeteria, to get into bars, etc. Not exactly a secret.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 08:25 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by jnelso99 View Post
At the school where I went to college, that was your student ID. It was used everywhere - to buy stuff at the cafeteria, to get into bars, etc. Not exactly a secret.
And as Segnosaur pointed out at #186 150 million people had their personal details (including SSN) exposed in the Equifax breach last year.

Even though your Social Security card isn't meant to be used as ID...

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Old 3rd August 2018, 08:36 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Of course I did. “Addressing” and “agreeing with” are two separate things.
Evidently, so are "knowing what a post says" and "disagreeing with a post".
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Old 3rd August 2018, 08:54 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What could be more transparent than a block chain?
That all depends on how you propose to use it, something you have refused to tell anyone.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 09:10 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Evidently, so are "knowing what a post says" and "disagreeing with a post".
Oh, I see. Are you under the impression I have a problem with blockchain itself? I don't. The problem is the question of GIGO and the transparency of what happens on the ends, like with the bitcoin exchanges. Especially on the voter side.

blockchain is great. It does not solve the underlying weaknesses of an online voting system. Continually posting "but but but ...blockchain is awesome!" doesn't change that.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 09:21 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What could be more transparent than a block chain?

Other than that you are saying that if certain problems were overcome then they wouldn't be overcome.

What could be more transparent? A full literal paper trail. My vote goes into a ballot box under supervision, the ballot box goes to the count under supervision, the count is supervised.

As has been said, the attack methods for a paper vote are easily understood and also would require a lot of people on the ground to affect the outcome in most elections.

Can you explain a bolockchain-based-system where anonymity is preserved whilst allowing traceability of votes if an investigation is needed?
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Old 3rd August 2018, 09:22 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is what everybody is accusing me of. Their strawman argument is that I am urging the adoption of blockchain technology right NOW!. That is why I listed some of the problems that could be addressed in post #133.

If concerns about the originating computer could be overcome, would you still say "nay" to electronic voting?
YES
If I asked a thousand people what blockchain is and how it works. How many could say what it is or describe how it works? People understand how paper and pencil works.

Every other day people read about breaches in software. Hackers all over the world are constantly at work trying to break or crack a code. I don't care how safe or unbreakable one might think their new code or lock might be, someone, somewhere seems to find a way to break it.

How do you assure them that their vote is secure in this environment? I don't think you can.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 09:23 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
I was just thinking exactly the same and wondering if the typical number of voters per polling station might be significantly less in the UK than the US.

<edit> This suggests England has around 50,000 polling stations, so a little over a thousand voters per station on average. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2015-32229745
<edit some more> And this (2004 figures) suggests the US equivalent is about 1200 voters per polling place so not much difference. https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1410/1410.8868.pdf
The electoral commission is interesting - note that special considerations need to be made if polling stations are serving a larger number of voters.

https://www.electoralcommission.org....ganisation.pdf

Quote:
Polling station staff

2.16 You must appoint and pay a Presiding Officer and such Poll Clerks as
may be necessary to staff each polling station. This cannot be any person
who has been employed by or on behalf of a candidate in or about the
election.

2.17 In order to ensure that voters can receive a high-quality service, when
deciding on the allocation of electors and staff to polling stations you will need to ensure that polling stations are properly staffed, giving consideration to the factors set out in paragraph 2.20 below.

2.18 The Commission recommends the following ratios (which exclude postal
voters) when allocating electors and staff to polling stations:
  • A polling station should not have more than 2,500 electors allocated to it.
  • In addition to a Presiding Officer, there should be one Poll Clerk for
    polling stations with up to 1,000 electors.
  • One additional Poll Clerk should be appointed for polling stations with up to 1,750 electors.
  • One further Poll Clerk should be appointed to a polling station with up to the maximum of 2,500 electors.

2.19 These ratios are recommended minimum levels: there may be
circumstances in which you wish to employ a higher number of staff.


2.20 Any polling station over 2,000 electors will create particular challenges in ensuring voters can vote without delay, taking into account the hours of poll and the fact that voters will not typically vote in an even spread across the day. To be able to respond to these challenges, staff should be capable of being deployed flexibly to respond to peaks in voter activity and limit the time voters are expected to queue to receive their ballot paper. One mechanism for managing larger polling stations effectively could be to split the register within that polling station to create two separate issuing desks, each managed by two members of staff, thereby doubling the capacity for processing, while recognising that there would need to be sufficient space within the polling station for this to operate effectively.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 09:30 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Continually posting "but but but ...blockchain is awesome!" doesn't change that.
It's a good thing I don't say that but I'm sure that you won't let an inconvenient fact like that stop you.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 09:35 AM   #216
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[quote=Blue Mountain;12382893]Having said that, Estonia has had e-voting in general elections for over a decade now. [wikipedia].
Yup. And lets take a look at Estonia....

The claim is that they've run electronic voting for several elections without problems. But from the wikipedia article:
a team of International computer security experts released the results of their examination of the system, claiming they could be able to breach the system, change votes and vote totals, and erase any evidence of their actions if they could install malware on the election servers.
...
In 2011 Paavo Pihelgas created a trojan that was theoretically able to change voter's choice without user noticing.


Furthermore, from: https://www.csoonline.com/article/32...-using-it.html
hilarious operational security failures, including an official video of the pre-election process that showed wi-fi passwords posted on the wall, administrators filmed typing in root passwords, and a software build system that was also being used to play PokerStars.

Also, from the same article it mentions Australian state elections that used electronic voting...
The NSW state election of 2015 was so insecure that one seat in the upper house of the state parliament may have been decided by hacked votes. In response to the scandal, the electoral commission went to great lengths to avoid transparency regarding the security issues...

Which highlights 2 problems:
- That hacking during an election can go undetected (the claim is that Estonia's elections have been fair and the system secure, but if they had been hacked, who could tell?)
- That the response by the government will typically be "No problem exists" rather than to confront security flaws

Quote:
Now, there is one huge difference between Estonia and the US: the e-voting system works in part because Estonia has a mandatory national ID card. The physical card is a smart card with an embedded cryptographic microprocessor. Try selling that in the States!
Another difference is that Estonia has a rather small voter base and very little political influence in the world. The U.S. has a HUGE (and extremely divided) voter base, and with a huge economy and significant political influence it serves as a much more tempting target.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 09:51 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
My physical signature is a random scribble that anyone could fake, my digital signature is 128-256 bit encryption depending on the exact application that... no you are not going to fake that.
Ballots are not signed. In fact, signing ballots voids them. But even if they were, the problem is that how do we know that your digital signature is yours and not an imposter? How do we stop them from signing up for e-ballots before you do? Hell, how do we even know that you are you?

Paper ballots limit the total amount of fraud possible by a single entity. Electronic ballots open up voter fraud to largely amounts. One person can attempt to be 140 million voters.

Roughly 40% of the US population doesn't vote. One person could impersonate all of them and nobody would know. There is no way to verify the credentials since they are, in fact, legitimate. They have the right names, drivers licenses, SSNs, and so on. And once the have that identity, the genuine voter would have an uphill battle getting it back.

You would have to solve, or have a mitigation method, for the issue of ID theft. Blockchain does nothing to solve that. How would you handle 10,860,005,571 bad ballots? Looks like enough to determine an election.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 10:02 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
How would you handle 10,860,005,571 bad ballots? Looks like enough to determine an election.
I think we could safely dismiss those results without investigation.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 10:20 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Leftus View Post
Ballots are not signed. In fact, signing ballots voids them. But even if they were, the problem is that how do we know that your digital signature is yours and not an imposter? How do we stop them from signing up for e-ballots before you do? Hell, how do we even know that you are you?
In my state, it's all mail in ballots. The ballots are not signed, but the envelope you put the ballot in must be signed.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 10:20 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It's a good thing I don't say that but I'm sure that you won't let an inconvenient fact like that stop you.
I'm very sorry.

I seemed to have confused you with another poster in this thread.

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Blockchain technology has the potential to make electronic voting unhackable.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
However, that is not as important as the fact that the entire blockchain is publically available for anybody who wishes to find any "flaws". Any voter would be able to examine the blockchain and verify that their votes were not tampered with.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You missed the point that a hostile computer can not overcome the "proof of work" that the blockchain requires.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Why don't you learn about the blockchain then tell us how this works.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What has any of that got to do with a blockchain? You do know the difference between an exchange and a blockchain don't you?
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Until you learn the difference between the blockchain and an exchange you are just posting utter rubbish.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The point of the blockchain is that it is not some super secret voting file stored on government computers.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Bitcoin exchanges are a weak point in the currency exchange system but the blockchain itself is the most secure, immutable thing invented in cyberspace.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Nobody has mentioned any problems with using blockchain.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
All of the real and imagined problems with electronic voting listed here have nothing to do with blockchain itself.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Maybe when a blockchain puts Uber out of business we will get a better idea of what can and what can not be done with blockchain technology.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What could be more transparent than a block chain?
And that doesn't include the ones that other psionl0 didn't mention blockchain by name.


Again, I think blockchain is a legit way of encrypting the votes. But honestly, that was probably the easiest part of the whole electronic voting issue.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 10:25 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
In my state, it's all mail in ballots. The ballots are not signed, but the envelope you put the ballot in must be signed.
That's what I've done for awhile.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 11:02 AM   #222
Segnosaur
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That is what everybody is accusing me of. Their strawman argument is that I am urging the adoption of blockchain technology right NOW!. That is why I listed some of the problems that could be addressed in post #133.

If concerns about the originating computer could be overcome, would you still say "nay" to electronic voting?
First of all, its not just problems on the "originating computer" that need to be overcome. People have posted about multiple attack vectors that could be used to interfere with electronic voting, so its not just the originating computer that needs to be dealt with.

Secondly... lets say we do admit Blockchain is a valid and secure way to store votes. I'm quite willing to say that if all of the security problems could be addressed then electronic voting would be OK. Are YOU willing to admit that all of the other problems are so intractable that the remainder of the security issues will not be solved until after the heat death of the universe?

Seriously, its like arguing we should accept voting through ESP, assuming the problems of telepathy could be solved.

If I had to give a list of concerns about electronic voting, the technology used to record the votes (be it blockchain or whatever) would not be be at the top of my list. In fact, I don't think it would even be in my top 10.

This reminds me of the movie "Planes, Trains and Automobiles", where the 2 main characters are driving a car that had caught fire. A cop pulls them over for speeding (their speedometer had melted in the fire), and asks if they think their car is safe to drive. One of the characters points out that the Radio still works. That's what blockchain is to electronic voting... one extremely tiny (and almost irrelevant) issue among so many, much more serious issues.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 11:30 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
In my state, it's all mail in ballots. The ballots are not signed, but the envelope you put the ballot in must be signed.
But they aren't kept, most likely. They certainly aren't matched to the ballot. I would doubt the signatures are looked at past the "does it exist" or not. If it was discovered that someone else signed the envelope a week, or month later, how would they resolve the issue?

Signatures on tax returns are required. They are not verified. They just have to exist. Spelling isn't even checked.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 11:38 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
[spoiler]
....
[/spoiler]
*
Thank you for pointing out that I never said "but but but ...blockchain is awesome!"

* Unfortunately the quote button doesn't include your quotes inside the spoiler tags so those interested will have to look at your original post.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 11:42 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Thank you for pointing out that I never said "but but but ...blockchain is awesome!"
Don't be ridiculous. That was a parody of what you've been arguing in this thread and was never intended to be a literal quote.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 11:58 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur View Post
First of all, its not just problems on the "originating computer" that need to be overcome. People have posted about multiple attack vectors that could be used to interfere with electronic voting, so its not just the originating computer that needs to be dealt with.

Secondly... lets say we do admit Blockchain is a valid and secure way to store votes. I'm quite willing to say that if all of the security problems could be addressed then electronic voting would be OK. Are YOU willing to admit that all of the other problems are so intractable that the remainder of the security issues will not be solved until after the heat death of the universe?

Seriously, its like arguing we should accept voting through ESP, assuming the problems of telepathy could be solved.

If I had to give a list of concerns about electronic voting, the technology used to record the votes (be it blockchain or whatever) would not be be at the top of my list. In fact, I don't think it would even be in my top 10.

This reminds me of the movie "Planes, Trains and Automobiles", where the 2 main characters are driving a car that had caught fire. A cop pulls them over for speeding (their speedometer had melted in the fire), and asks if they think their car is safe to drive. One of the characters points out that the Radio still works. That's what blockchain is to electronic voting... one extremely tiny (and almost irrelevant) issue among so many, much more serious issues.
Basically it's like this:



Actual actual reality: nobody cares about his secrets. (Also, I would be hard-pressed to find that wrench for $5.)


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Old 3rd August 2018, 12:48 PM   #227
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I might be in favor of "e-voting" if I thought there was a big problem that it could solve.

The big problems I see with voting are disenfranchisement and gerrymandering, which aren't technology problems.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 01:26 PM   #228
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
I might be in favor of "e-voting" if I thought there was a big problem that it could solve.

The big problems I see with voting are disenfranchisement and gerrymandering, which aren't technology problems.
Late to the party here, sorry...
A major problem I see is turnout, which both mail and e balloting would address.
Our limited hours are arguably an issue as well... same response.
I mean honestly... voting on a Tuesday?
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Old 3rd August 2018, 01:50 PM   #229
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Late to the party here, sorry...
A major problem I see is turnout, which both mail and e balloting would address.
Our limited hours are arguably an issue as well... same response.
I mean honestly... voting on a Tuesday?
That was out-of-date 70 years ago. Now it's just irrelevant.

Turnout has always been a problem, but if someone is so apathetic that they won't vote unless it's an easy app on their phone, then nothing is going to fix that.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 03:17 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
That was out-of-date 70 years ago. Now it's just irrelevant.

Turnout has always been a problem, but if someone is so apathetic that they won't vote unless it's an easy app on their phone, then nothing is going to fix that.
Another board I hang out at has a lot of retail workers, people with two jobs or job and college, rely on public transport etc.

There are valid reason why it's hard to get out and vote, it's incorrect to assume apathy, and an easy remote vote would probably help greatly. It's still not a vote for app or web voting, just refining current rules to help these people.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 03:19 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Jim_MDP View Post
Late to the party here, sorry...
A major problem I see is turnout, which both mail and e balloting would address.
Our limited hours are arguably an issue as well... same response.
I mean honestly... voting on a Tuesday?
California has both early and vote by mail. Total turn out for 2016? 36% I'm not sure how much e-ballots would add to the legitimate vote count.

The problem really isn't access.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 03:43 PM   #232
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[quote=Segnosaur;12383049]
Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
Having said that, Estonia has had e-voting in general elections for over a decade now. [wikipedia].
Yup. And lets take a look at Estonia....

The claim is that they've run electronic voting for several elections without problems. But from the wikipedia article:
a team of International computer security experts released the results of their examination of the system, claiming they could be able to breach the system, change votes and vote totals, and erase any evidence of their actions if they could install malware on the election servers.
...
In 2011 Paavo Pihelgas created a trojan that was theoretically able to change voter's choice without user noticing.


Furthermore, from: https://www.csoonline.com/article/32...-using-it.html
hilarious operational security failures, including an official video of the pre-election process that showed wi-fi passwords posted on the wall, administrators filmed typing in root passwords, and a software build system that was also being used to play PokerStars.

Also, from the same article it mentions Australian state elections that used electronic voting...
The NSW state election of 2015 was so insecure that one seat in the upper house of the state parliament may have been decided by hacked votes. In response to the scandal, the electoral commission went to great lengths to avoid transparency regarding the security issues...

Which highlights 2 problems:
- That hacking during an election can go undetected (the claim is that Estonia's elections have been fair and the system secure, but if they had been hacked, who could tell?)
- That the response by the government will typically be "No problem exists" rather than to confront security flaws


Another difference is that Estonia has a rather small voter base and very little political influence in the world. The U.S. has a HUGE (and extremely divided) voter base, and with a huge economy and significant political influence it serves as a much more tempting target.
All great points. Despite the fact Estonia has electronic voting, the process is not completely secure, and that in a nation with just over a million people. And probably doesn't have the deep political divides we see in the US.

Getting it to work in the USA? There are some major hurdles to overcome. For now, paper provides the best combination of privacy with an audit trail. Those are much more important than knowing who has been elected microseconds after the polls close.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 06:50 PM   #233
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Don't be ridiculous. That was a parody strawman of what you've been arguing in this thread and was never intended to be a literal quote.
ftfy.
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Old 3rd August 2018, 07:30 PM   #234
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Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
Another board I hang out at has a lot of retail workers, people with two jobs or job and college, rely on public transport etc.

There are valid reason why it's hard to get out and vote, it's incorrect to assume apathy, and an easy remote vote would probably help greatly. It's still not a vote for app or web voting, just refining current rules to help these people.
That wasn't remotely my point. In fact, that's what I meant by disenfranchisement. Some people really want to vote, and have to overcome hurdles to do so, while others can do it easily with very little effort and don't even care to make a tiny effort.
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Old 4th August 2018, 03:48 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ftfy.
Straw man. Right.

Roughly a third of your posts, at the time I counted, were either extolling or defending blockchain by name. I’d estimate another sixth to a third we’re doing the same without mentioning it by name. I’m estimating about half to two-thirds of your posts have been promoting blockchain. You have the second most posts in this thread. So, yes, you have been hawking blockchain pretty heavily in this thread.

Again, blockchain is an interesting technology, but it is largely inconsequential to the core problems of electronic voting.
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Old 4th August 2018, 04:06 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Upchurch View Post
Straw man. Right.

Roughly a third of your posts, at the time I counted, were either extolling or defending blockchain by name. I’d estimate another sixth to a third we’re doing the same without mentioning it by name. I’m estimating about half to two-thirds of your posts have been promoting blockchain. You have the second most posts in this thread. So, yes, you have been hawking blockchain pretty heavily in this thread.

Again, blockchain is an interesting technology, but it is largely inconsequential to the core problems of electronic voting.
And somehow, in all that, never a good explanation why. There's some snide "LOL, you don't understand blockchain" but never actual information beyond "It's secure" (both quotes paraphrased)
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Old 4th August 2018, 06:55 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by Mongrel View Post
And somehow, in all that, never a good explanation why. There's some snide "LOL, you don't understand blockchain" but never actual information beyond "It's secure" (both quotes paraphrased)
I gave an explanation of how blockchain worked and the role it could play in an electronic voting system early on in this thread.

Unfortunately, that explanation has been buried by the many voluminous posts that accuse me of of being madly in love with blockchain.
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Old 4th August 2018, 07:32 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I gave an explanation of how blockchain worked and the role it could play in an electronic voting system early on in this thread.
It could, but so what? You might as well be arguing what language to write the app in. I mean, yeah, great, but it doesn't address the fundamental problems with online voting.
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Old 4th August 2018, 07:37 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I gave an explanation of how blockchain worked and the role it could play in an electronic voting system early on in this thread.

Unfortunately, that explanation has been buried by the many voluminous posts that accuse me of of being madly in love with blockchain.
I guess you are talking about these

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It is not just an older video, it is out of date.

Blockchain technology has the potential to make electronic voting unhackable. It even has the ability to maintain voter privacy (Monero style).
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
@Ambrosia, I understand your skepticism. Up until a few years ago I also would have thought that this was not possible.

Yet it has been achieved in the banking industry. If you think that gaming elections is worth money then imagine if you could game banking. Yet thanks to encryption technology and other security measures, online banking is about as safe as writing a paper check or visiting the local branch of your bank. This has been achieved despite the hostile nature of the internet.

What makes blockchain different is that it is fully decentralized. There may be 1000s or even 100000s of nodes all working on verifying votes and adding them to the blockchain. One individual can not control that many nodes. A node can not add a block to the chain without doing a "proof of work" process (essentially guessing the correct number - known as a nonce). Once a block has been added, it can't be altered or at least, it can't be altered without recalculating the nonce of all future blocks that have been added and that difficulty increases exponentially high after a few blocks.

The software that does all of this is open source so that anybody can examine it. However, that is not as important as the fact that the entire blockchain is publically available for anybody who wishes to find any "flaws". Any voter would be able to examine the blockchain and verify that their votes were not tampered with.

I'm not saying that it is foolproof but "hanging chad" fisacos or ballot box tampering is much less likely to occur with this technology.


That is not true either. It is virtually impossible for somebody to do a transaction against a wallet or alter a wallet transaction without possessing the user's private "key". The same goes for tampering with votes and digital voting cards.
Which misses the point that WilliamSeger (amongst others) has made.

Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
It takes software to get input from some device and build a blockchain entry. My online banking is not safe if my PC has been hacked with a key logger.
I can be prepared to accept that Blockchain can be secure. I can't see how one can explain it to the majority of the population.

I can't see how it prevents bad information being entered into the system in the first place. An electronic system is vulnerable to the inputs being subverted. There is also a large incentive to attempt this. A paper system would require far too many people for covert attacks to achieve much.
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Old 4th August 2018, 08:30 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
I gave an explanation of how blockchain worked and the role it could play in an electronic voting system early on in this thread.

Unfortunately, that explanation has been buried by the many voluminous posts that accuse me of of being madly in love with blockchain.
I apologise, you gave an explaination for how one sort of blockchainWP worked.

On a more thorough reading though, what's the proof of work? How are you going to be able to generate the robust key that is one of the lynchpins of blockchain while still being able to process people at a speedy rate?

How do you stop a 51% attack, and you may want to read up on botnet swarms before answering.
A search for 'Blockchain security' got this article from MIT Technology Review, from the article;
Quote:
So in the end, “secure” ends up being very hard to define in the context of blockchains. Secure from whom? Secure for what? “It depends on your perspective,” says Narula.
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