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Old 4th August 2018, 02:04 PM   #1
Thor 2
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Logic No Entry Religious Mindset

Had long been intrigued by this after many discussions with the religious. Dogma can be so contradictory, and yet the faithful can be so accepting and take it on board, making little or no effort to rationalise.

Peter Boghossian in his "A Manual for Creating Atheists." confronts this hurdle by asking the religious believer to state and justify their contentious beliefs. The procedure seems laborious and success elusive judging from the case histories.

Anyone here have any techniques they have developed?
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Old 4th August 2018, 03:25 PM   #2
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I find that being courteous and respectful, finding areas of agreement, and building on that, is generally effective in just about any relationship.
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Old 4th August 2018, 03:37 PM   #3
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Had long been intrigued by this after many discussions with the religious. Dogma can be so contradictory, and yet the faithful can be so accepting and take it on board, making little or no effort to rationalise.

Peter Boghossian in his "A Manual for Creating Atheists." confronts this hurdle by asking the religious believer to state and justify their contentious beliefs. The procedure seems laborious and success elusive judging from the case histories.

Anyone here have any techniques they have developed?
Techniques for what?
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Old 4th August 2018, 04:27 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Techniques for what?
Techniques for de-converting the religiously devout .... I would have thought this was obvious.

You, as one of the aforementioned could help me here. How do you deal with the contradictory aspects of theology? I mean the areas where dogma contradicts known scientifically established knowledge, and also where dogma contradicts other dogma, from the same book of text. I assume you know of many examples of this.
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Old 4th August 2018, 05:13 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Techniques for de-converting the religiously devout .... I would have thought this was obvious.

You, as one of the aforementioned could help me here. How do you deal with the contradictory aspects of theology? I mean the areas where dogma contradicts known scientifically established knowledge, and also where dogma contradicts other dogma, from the same book of text. I assume you know of many examples of this.
No that wasn’t obvious...

You mean contradictory, like taking it upon oneself to convert others who have absolutely no desire for it yet complaining when people on the other side do it?
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Old 4th August 2018, 06:17 PM   #6
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I can't say it was obvious to me either. I don't see why it would be appropriate to deconvert the devout or productive to try. I'd rather try to make them understand why they, along with everyone else, are better served by a secular government and why they should get out of my face whether or not they understand it.

There are, after all, plenty of devout people who manage quite nicely to lead decent lives and even if I don't like what they believe, like insects that sting I don't see any reason to bother them if they're not bothering me.
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Old 4th August 2018, 08:16 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I find that being courteous and respectful, finding areas of agreement, and building on that, is generally effective in just about any relationship.
I find this an interesting thing you say because in this forum, several times, I've attempted to do this exact thing with yourself and have only been met with deafening silence.
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Old 4th August 2018, 08:36 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I can't say it was obvious to me either. I don't see why it would be appropriate to deconvert the devout or productive to try. I'd rather try to make them understand why they, along with everyone else, are better served by a secular government and why they should get out of my face whether or not they understand it.

There are, after all, plenty of devout people who manage quite nicely to lead decent lives and even if I don't like what they believe, like insects that sting I don't see any reason to bother them if they're not bothering me.
This. Well said for me.
I have no agenda to convert or deconvert. If I can I find some way to make a connection with them even if they are on the Kool-Aid IV. If I can't I keep a polite distance.
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Old 4th August 2018, 08:46 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No that wasn’t obvious...

You mean contradictory, like taking it upon oneself to convert others who have absolutely no desire for it yet complaining when people on the other side do it?

You seem to have a different understanding of what contradictory means than I, and perhaps the dictionary definition. I would really like to hear how you deal with the conflicting messages, so obvious in the sacred texts you must draw your beliefs from.
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Old 4th August 2018, 08:46 PM   #10
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Many religions have already lost against modernity, since their followers think that Faith needs some level of proof at all: for most of history, religion being in direct contradiction to evidence wasn't a problem, since The Word of God wasn't taken literally.
Only if you see Religion in competition with science (as many do) are you sure to lose your faith if you think critically.
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Old 4th August 2018, 09:03 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I can't say it was obvious to me either. I don't see why it would be appropriate to deconvert the devout or productive to try. I'd rather try to make them understand why they, along with everyone else, are better served by a secular government and why they should get out of my face whether or not they understand it.

There are, after all, plenty of devout people who manage quite nicely to lead decent lives and even if I don't like what they believe, like insects that sting I don't see any reason to bother them if they're not bothering me.
Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
This. Well said for me.
I have no agenda to convert or deconvert. If I can I find some way to make a connection with them even if they are on the Kool-Aid IV. If I can't I keep a polite distance.

Well perhaps you don't find this as confronting as I do. I don't think I am a lone beacon of light on this issue, as I know of many others who share my concern for the many others, who are impacted by religious belief. I have listed the many concerns I have on other threads and won't bore you with the issues once again unless pressed.

As I have said more than once I am not antagonistic towards the religious but am towards religion itself. I think the religious are the biggest victims of religion, and would like to ease them out of the affliction they find themselves in.
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Old 4th August 2018, 09:41 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Many religions have already lost against modernity, since their followers think that Faith needs some level of proof at all: for most of history, religion being in direct contradiction to evidence wasn't a problem, since The Word of God wasn't taken literally.
Only if you see Religion in competition with science (as many do) are you sure to lose your faith if you think critically.

From what I read Richard Dawkins was one of those who lost his faith as a result of scientific enlightenment. His experience may have been unusual however as religious faith has many anchors.

I watched an account posted by a born again, (a number of times as he relates), Pentecostal Christian who lost his faith over a period of time as his anchors were destroyed one by one. He listed his anchors as:

Creation - The apparent beauty of.
Effectiveness of prayer - His perception of.
Morality - Coming from God.
Other Christians - He was surrounded by them and how could they all be Wrong?
The Bible - Unerring word of God.
Personal relationship with God.

Logical argument had to confront all these anchors and the last was the most difficult to overcome. He had to come to the realisation that the voices in his head came from himself and not from outside.

When I communicate with my nephew, (a born again, demon vanquishing, fundie), this is what I come up against time and again..... His relationship with Jesus.
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Old 5th August 2018, 12:13 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You mean contradictory, like taking it upon oneself to convert others who have absolutely no desire for it yet complaining when people on the other side do it?
I think he means contradictory as in (for example)

Genesis Ch6 V4 says that there were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood, then

Genesis Ch7 V21 says that all creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood, then

Numbers Ch13 V33 says that there were Nephilim after the Flood.

This is a clear and obvious contradiction

Another example...

Genesis Ch22 V1-12 & Deuteronomy Ch8 V2 says that God tests Abraham and Moses, then

Judges Ch2 V22 says that God himself says that he does test, then

James Ch1 V13 says that God tests no one.


Again, these are clear and obvious contradictions.

There are literally several hundred contradictions in the Bible just like these. How do you deal with them? How do you continue to believe in the words of a document that continually lies to you?
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Old 5th August 2018, 02:08 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There are literally several hundred contradictions in the Bible just like these. How do you deal with them? How do you continue to believe in the words of a document that continually lies to you?
Become a different kind of religious person is one possibility. From the fact that you can change a Christian away from being a Christian, doesn't follow that this person has to be become an atheist.

Maybe you don't have to convert all religious humans to become atheists. An atheist is simply one, who doesn't believe a theistic god. That says nothing about the rest of the world-view of the atheist.
If you want to convert a Christian, you have to in practice to convert to something else other than being just an atheist. And it doesn't follow that the person has to become an atheist, if the person is now a non-Christian.

With regard
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Old 5th August 2018, 04:04 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Become a different kind of religious person is one possibility. From the fact that you can change a Christian away from being a Christian, doesn't follow that this person has to be become an atheist.

Maybe you don't have to convert all religious humans to become atheists. An atheist is simply one, who doesn't believe a theistic god. That says nothing about the rest of the world-view of the atheist.
If you want to convert a Christian, you have to in practice to convert to something else other than being just an atheist. And it doesn't follow that the person has to become an atheist, if the person is now a non-Christian.

With regard
Non sequitur. Your post bears no relation to the question I asked... and in any case, I didn't ask you!
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Old 5th August 2018, 04:19 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Non sequitur. Your post bears no relation to the question I asked... and in any case, I didn't ask you!
Oh, sorry or not.

Christians are not the only religious people. Religious people are not the only ones with incoherent world-views.
Further if you want to change a person's incoherent world-view and replace with a world-view, which is coherent, you must be able to show that a coherent world-view is possible.

I am a skeptic, so I know that is not possible. So in practice this is about less harm and overall a better world. That is connected to incoherent world-views, but it is not all, there is to it.

With regard
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Old 5th August 2018, 04:22 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Christians are not the only religious people.
TBD is a Christian... I was asking HIM!
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Old 5th August 2018, 04:23 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
TBD is a Christian... I was asking HIM!
And you convert him!!! To what?
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Old 5th August 2018, 07:32 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
There are literally several hundred contradictions in the Bible just like these. How do you deal with them? How do you continue to believe in the words of a document that continually lies to you?
Hand-waiving mostly. Part of the appeal of the bible, particularly for Christians, is that it has something for everyone. Its very contradictions allow the user to customize their set of religious beliefs in any way they like. If you don't like the old testament, you can just waive it away by saying the new testament replaced all that stuff anyways. Pretty much anything can be justified by pointing to some passage or other, often taken grossly out of context. (Didn't we just see the Attorney General justify taking children from their parents at the Southern border with an appeal to St. Paul?)

A minimum of rationalizing is acceptable to dispatch some uncomfortable idea. The true believer is more than willing to say "Yeah, that's not really important - look, over here, Jesus saves!"
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Old 5th August 2018, 08:22 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Another example...

Genesis Ch22 V1-12 & Deuteronomy Ch8 V2 says that God tests Abraham and Moses, then

Judges Ch2 V22 says that God himself says that he does test, then

James Ch1 V13 says that God tests no one.

Where did you get that paraphrase of James? Do you expect that one should take that on faith?

What is the source for those claims?

We all know that there are dozens of sources of Atheist Propaganda on the internet that list so called contradictions, which one are we using here? Because I like to know what style of "Atheist" missionary we are dealing with here.
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Old 5th August 2018, 12:12 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
And you convert him!!! To what?
Non sequitur. Your post bears no relation to the question I asked.
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Old 5th August 2018, 12:17 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
.......With regard
If you have to keep doing this at the end of every post, could you at least do it properly?

Regards.
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Old 5th August 2018, 12:19 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Where did you get that paraphrase of James? Do you expect that one should take that on faith?

What is the source for those claims?

We all know that there are dozens of sources of Atheist Propaganda on the internet that list so called contradictions, which one are we using here? Because I like to know what style of "Atheist" missionary we are dealing with here.
Rather than worry about who is saying this, how about dealing with what is being said? It surely isn't hard to open your babble at the correct page and read the quotes for yourself.
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Old 5th August 2018, 12:28 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Rather than worry about who is saying this, how about dealing with what is being said? It surely isn't hard to open your babble at the correct page and read the quotes for yourself.
“Babble.”

I did read the Bible, that was kind of the point.

I think people using logic are entitled to know where the person asking the question is getting the deliberately incorrect paraphrase.
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Old 5th August 2018, 12:39 PM   #25
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Well why don't you point out the error with the correct quote/s, rather than worry about the source?
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Old 5th August 2018, 12:52 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Where did you get that paraphrase of James?
James 1:13 King James Version
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Source: kingjamesbibleonline.org

James 1:13 New King James Version
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone

Source: biblegateway.com

James 1:13 New International Version
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone

Source: bibleserver.com

James 1:13 English Standard Version
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one

James 1:13 American Standard Version
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man:

James 1:13 Douay-Rheims Bible
Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is not a tempter of evils, and he tempteth no man.

James 1:13 English Revised Version
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man:

James 1:13 Webster's Bible Translation
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:13 Weymouth New Testament
Let no one say when passing through trial, "My temptation is from God;" for God is incapable of being tempted to do evil, and He Himself tempts no one.

Source (all six above): biblehub.com

James 1:13 New Living Translation
And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, “God is tempting me.” God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else.

Source: biblestudytools.com

Ten different versions.
Five different sources.
ALL say the same thing.

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Do you expect that one should take that on faith?

What is the source for those claims?

We all know that there are dozens of sources of Atheist Propaganda on the internet that list so called contradictions, which one are we using here? Because I like to know what style of "Atheist" missionary we are dealing with here.
Don't try to change the subject. I'm not going to let you play "look over there" on this question. If you don't think this particular example is valid, fine. What about the other ones I mentioned?

Answer the question.
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Old 5th August 2018, 01:27 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
If you have to keep doing this at the end of every post, could you at least do it properly?

Regards.

Always gets up my nose too.
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Old 5th August 2018, 01:35 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
James 1:13 King James Version
“Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Source: kingjamesbibleonline.org

James 1:13 New King James Version
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone

Source: biblegateway.com

James 1:13 New International Version
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone

Source: bibleserver.com

James 1:13 English Standard Version
Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God,” for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one

James 1:13 American Standard Version
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man:

James 1:13 Douay-Rheims Bible
Let no man, when he is tempted, say that he is tempted by God. For God is not a tempter of evils, and he tempteth no man.

James 1:13 English Revised Version
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempteth no man:

James 1:13 Webster's Bible Translation
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted by God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

James 1:13 Weymouth New Testament
Let no one say when passing through trial, "My temptation is from God;" for God is incapable of being tempted to do evil, and He Himself tempts no one.

Source (all six above): biblehub.com

James 1:13 New Living Translation
And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, “God is tempting me.” God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else.

Source: biblestudytools.com

Ten different versions.
Five different sources.
ALL say the same thing.



Don't try to change the subject. I'm not going to let you play "look over there" on this question. If you don't think this particular example is valid, fine. What about the other ones I mentioned?

Answer the question.

Yes there are so many to choose between in the Bible it is nothing short of overwhelming. The Big Dog is a Catholic however and Catholic lay people are not known for their Biblical scholarship. The church only produced the book in English in relatively recent times.

Good job with your references however smartcooky.
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Old 5th August 2018, 01:36 PM   #29
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Curious, the verses you quote all use the word “tempt” yet it is written “test.”

Hmmm, mayhaps our contradictions are perhaps generated by misleading phrasing?

Or is your faithful correspondent simply using logic to test the claims of the atheist proselytizers?

Why not both... both indeed.
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Old 5th August 2018, 01:45 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Rather than worry about who is saying this, how about dealing with what is being said? It surely isn't hard to open your babble at the correct page and read the quotes for yourself.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
“Babble.”

I did read the Bible, that was kind of the point.

I think people using logic are entitled to know where the person asking the question is getting the deliberately incorrect paraphrase.

An all too familiar bit of ducking and weaving from The Big Dog once again.

If you will answer a question The Big Dog it occurs to me that the personal relationship with God/Jesus is a non Catholic, perhaps new age Christian thing. What do you think of this Jesus in my friend idea?
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Old 5th August 2018, 01:53 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Curious, the verses you quote all use the word “tempt” yet it is written “test.”........
In which language? In which version of the babble? In the original cast-in-stone-by-god version, the one provided to make sure that everyone knew exactly what was on his lordship's mind without argument?
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Old 5th August 2018, 01:57 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Curious, the verses you quote all use the word “tempt” yet it is written “test.”

Hmmm, mayhaps our contradictions are perhaps generated by misleading phrasing?

Or is your faithful correspondent simply using logic to test the claims of the atheist proselytizers?

Why not both... both indeed.

The usual evasiveness and sniping at the fringes from you once again.

Referring to the new testament now I have this question to ask:

"Jesus descended from which son of David?

Solomon (Matthew 1:6)
Nathan(Luke3:31)

???"

Mind you as Jesus was born of a virgin the question hardly seems relevant.
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Old 5th August 2018, 02:19 PM   #33
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Is there someplace where the typing of the word “babble” in place of the word “Bible” is considered clever?

Bit ironic in a thread captioned “logic no entry religious mindset” (which in and of itself is more than a bit ironic)
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Old 5th August 2018, 02:26 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Curious, the verses you quote all use the word “tempt” yet it is written “test.”
Aha, as expected. The word games...

Tempt: entice or try to entice (someone) to do something that they find attractive but know to be wrong or unwise.

Test: a means of establishing whether an action is as expected, especially one held to be undesirable.

They sure look enough like the same thing to me to be interchangeable

Test of loyalty
Test of faith

How about you stop with the word games, the sidetracking and the "look over there" stuff, and just answer the bloody question!
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Old 5th August 2018, 02:37 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Aha, as expected. The word games...

Tempt: entice or try to entice (someone) to do something that they find attractive but know to be wrong or unwise.

Test: a means of establishing whether an action is as expected, especially one held to be undesirable.

They sure look enough like the same thing to me to be interchangeable

Test of loyalty
Test of faith

How about you stop with the word games, the sidetracking and the "look over there" stuff, and just answer the bloody question!
Temptation of loyalty
Temptation of faith.

Yeah that makes oh so much sense.

I didn’t start the word games, I just exposed them for all to see.

Next time, one should make sure to use full quotes, one should provide context, should one wish to discuss issues with people using actual logic, like the big dog.
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Old 5th August 2018, 03:00 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Temptation of loyalty
Temptation of faith.

Yeah that makes oh so much sense.

I didn’t start the word games, I just exposed them for all to see.

Next time, one should make sure to use full quotes, one should provide context, should one wish to discuss issues with people using actual logic, like the big dog.
So, you're going to pull your usual stunt of avoiding answering the question. Not a good look is it?

You cherry picked this one and and played a few word games. There are plenty more, so I can afford to let you have that one (against my better judgement, but I have a few full ammunition boxes to work with).

How about you address the other contradiction I mentioned

Genesis Ch6 V4 says that there were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood, then

Genesis Ch7 V21 says that all creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood, then

Numbers Ch13 V33 says that there were Nephilim after the Flood.


This is a clear and obvious contradiction.
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Old 5th August 2018, 03:35 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
So, you're going to pull your usual stunt of avoiding answering the question. Not a good look is it?

You cherry picked this one and and played a few word games. There are plenty more, so I can afford to let you have that one (against my better judgement, but I have a few full ammunition boxes to work with).

How about you address the other contradiction I mentioned

Genesis Ch6 V4 says that there were Nephilim (giants) before the Flood, then

Genesis Ch7 V21 says that all creatures other than Noah and his clan were annihilated by the Flood, then

Numbers Ch13 V33 says that there were Nephilim after the Flood.


This is a clear and obvious contradiction.
Ah, I see the gish gallop! I showed you were wrong by pointing out the falsity of your James claim (Temptation of loyalty, Temptation of faith, indeed)

Next we are on to something else, no full quotes, no context, just the bare claim that this is what the scripture says and we can totes trust them on this, because there ain't no way in hell that the actual scripture in context will be provided, yet The Big Dog gets accused of cherry picking! WOW!

Numbers 13 v 33 is the report of the spies who "exaggerated" because they didn't want to fight and in the very Holy Scripture is referred to as "EVIL" because it was false.

Numbers 13:32 "And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, [is] a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it [are] men of a great stature."

Y'all keep setting them up and the Big Dog will keep knocking them down, Praise be to Jesus.
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Old 5th August 2018, 03:43 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ah, I see the gish gallop! I showed you were wrong by pointing out the falsity of your James claim (Temptation of loyalty, Temptation of faith, indeed)

Next we are on to something else, no full quotes, no context, just the bare claim that this is what the scripture says and we can totes trust them on this, because there ain't no way in hell that the actual scripture in context will be provided, yet The Big Dog gets accused of cherry picking! WOW!

Numbers 13 v 33 is the report of the spies who "exaggerated" because they didn't want to fight and in the very Holy Scripture is referred to as "EVIL" because it was false.

Numbers 13:32 "And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, [is] a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it [are] men of a great stature."

Y'all keep setting them up and the Big Dog will keep knocking them down, Praise be to Jesus.
OK, which version would be your preference for quotes? KJV? NLT-CE? ESV-CE? RNJB?
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Old 5th August 2018, 04:43 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
OK, which version would be your preference for quotes? KJV? NLT-CE? ESV-CE? RNJB?
Can’t fathom what that had to do with my post expertly explaining the Numbers reference to you....

Hmmmm....

Now the other thing I find curious is that so called atheists usually are by far and away the most fundamentalist interpreters of the Bible y’all will EVER see.
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Old 5th August 2018, 04:56 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Can’t fathom what that had to do with my post expertly explaining the Numbers reference to you....

Hmmmm....

Now the other thing I find curious is that so called atheists usually are by far and away the most fundamentalist interpreters of the Bible y’all will EVER see.
I see you avoided the question, natch.
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