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Old 5th August 2018, 05:13 PM   #41
The Big Dog
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Originally Posted by Nay_Sayer View Post
I see you avoided the question, natch.
Au contraire! I pointed out that it had zip squat to do with my expert explanation of the reference to Numbers.

As, of course, did the post to which I am replying, “natch.”
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Old 5th August 2018, 05:53 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Au contraire! I pointed out that it had zip squat to do with my expert explanation of the reference to Numbers.
Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Can’t fathom what that had to do with my post expertly explaining the Numbers reference to you....
No, you simply avoided the question, as usual

You said....

Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Next we are on to something else, no full quotes, no context, just the bare claim that this is what the scripture says.
and I asked....

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
OK, which version would be your preference for quotes? KJV? NLT-CE? ESV-CE? RNJB?
Now, are you going to tell me which is your preferred version, or are you going to keep playing your stupid and pointless word games?
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Old 5th August 2018, 06:01 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post

Now the other thing I find curious is that so called atheists usually are by far and away the most fundamentalist interpreters of the Bible y’all will EVER see.
Are you of the opinion that some people are only "pretending" to be atheists?
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Old 5th August 2018, 06:28 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
From what I read Richard Dawkins was one of those who lost his faith as a result of scientific enlightenment. His experience may have been unusual however as religious faith has many anchors.

I watched an account posted by a born again, (a number of times as he relates), Pentecostal Christian who lost his faith over a period of time as his anchors were destroyed one by one. He listed his anchors as:

Creation - The apparent beauty of.
Effectiveness of prayer - His perception of.
Morality - Coming from God.
Other Christians - He was surrounded by them and how could they all be Wrong?
The Bible - Unerring word of God.
Personal relationship with God.

Logical argument had to confront all these anchors and the last was the most difficult to overcome. He had to come to the realisation that the voices in his head came from himself and not from outside.

When I communicate with my nephew, (a born again, demon vanquishing, fundie), this is what I come up against time and again..... His relationship with Jesus.
Yes. The last one is the most difficult. It takes a good deal of self-awareness and contemplation to realize what's actually going on. I find that most people just don't have that degree of self-scrutiny. At best I can share my experience. I found It easy for me to not only invoke the presence of God, but the presence of "tree spirits." In the case of the trees, I was able to see how I was projecting those encounters. and realize how I was projecting God.

As I said, I don't go out of my way with Atheist Apologetics. I have in the process of discussion shared the observation above. But I'm not keen on using it as a polemic. I want the other person to be awake to hirself, to make hir own effort to see. I think that Awareness is a vital thing when the religious illusions collapse. Otherwise one will find other addictions in the place of Jesus. Addictions that can be way worse.
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Old 5th August 2018, 06:45 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ah, I see the gish gallop! I showed you were wrong by pointing out the falsity of your James claim (Temptation of loyalty, Temptation of faith, indeed)

Next we are on to something else, no full quotes, no context, just the bare claim that this is what the scripture says and we can totes trust them on this, because there ain't no way in hell that the actual scripture in context will be provided, yet The Big Dog gets accused of cherry picking! WOW!

Numbers 13 v 33 is the report of the spies who "exaggerated" because they didn't want to fight and in the very Holy Scripture is referred to as "EVIL" because it was false.

Numbers 13:32 "And they brought up an evil report of the land which they had searched unto the children of Israel, saying, The land, through which we have gone to search it, [is] a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof; and all the people that we saw in it [are] men of a great stature."

Y'all keep setting them up and the Big Dog will keep knocking them down, Praise be to Jesus.
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
No, you simply avoided the question, as usual

You said....



and I asked....



Now, are you going to tell me which is your preferred version, or are you going to keep playing your stupid and pointless word games?
I highlighted the answer I already gave you! And that you cut out... and instead accused me of "playing" "word games."

Let me know if you have any trouble understanding that answer I already gave you.
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Old 5th August 2018, 06:46 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Are you of the opinion that some people are only "pretending" to be atheists?
Nope, in my opinion there are some anti-theists and some anti-religious fanatics.
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Old 5th August 2018, 08:12 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I highlighted the answer I already gave you! And that you cut out... and instead accused me of "playing" "word games."

Let me know if you have any trouble understanding that answer I already gave you.
I understand perfectly what you posted about "Numbers"

I also asked you which version of the bible you would prefer me to quote from. Its really a simple question; why are you avoiding giving an answer to this?
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Old 5th August 2018, 08:24 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
I understand perfectly what you posted about "Numbers"

I also asked you which version of the bible you would prefer me to quote from. Its really a simple question; why are you avoiding giving an answer to this?
Perfectly. Thanks, I did explain it perfectly...

I don’t recall expressing a preference, heck one has not bothered to quote from one yet... use anyone supported by the US Conference of Catholic Bishops.

I look forward to detailed context, too!
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Old 5th August 2018, 09:36 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
Yes. The last one is the most difficult. It takes a good deal of self-awareness and contemplation to realize what's actually going on. I find that most people just don't have that degree of self-scrutiny. At best I can share my experience. I found It easy for me to not only invoke the presence of God, but the presence of "tree spirits." In the case of the trees, I was able to see how I was projecting those encounters. and realize how I was projecting God.

As I said, I don't go out of my way with Atheist Apologetics. I have in the process of discussion shared the observation above. But I'm not keen on using it as a polemic. I want the other person to be awake to hirself, to make hir own effort to see. I think that Awareness is a vital thing when the religious illusions collapse. Otherwise one will find other addictions in the place of Jesus. Addictions that can be way worse.

Yes I can see how hard it would be to deny the existence of a supernatural entity if you really felt you had been in contact with one. One approach to bring this phenomena into perspective is to show that it is not unique to one particular religious being. The following I think is a good illustration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...ubz_souh0#t=27

If the believer accepts that people of a variety of faiths can have these experiences then they may be more inclined to accept there is no supernatural input. Or perhaps there are a plethora of different god beings out there.

Atheist Apologetics? I have difficulty with this one as atheism is just a lack of belief and there is no dogma to explain. Wait!! ....... I can see The Big Dog bringing Stalin in again ..... drat.
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Old 5th August 2018, 09:41 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Nope, in my opinion there are some anti-theists and some anti-religious fanatics.

This is possibly the most dishonest comment that you persist with again and again. Anti- theism is not anti-theist as has been pointed out to you again and again. And is it fanatical for the non religious to push against religious belief that impacts them and those they care about?
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Old 5th August 2018, 09:42 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Are you of the opinion that some people are only "pretending" to be atheists?

If so I find it difficult to imagine a motivation for doing this.
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Old 5th August 2018, 10:59 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Yes I can see how hard it would be to deny the existence of a supernatural entity if you really felt you had been in contact with one. One approach to bring this phenomena into perspective is to show that it is not unique to one particular religious being. The following I think is a good illustration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...ubz_souh0#t=27

If the believer accepts that people of a variety of faiths can have these experiences then they may be more inclined to accept there is no supernatural input. Or perhaps there are a plethora of different god beings out there.

Atheist Apologetics? I have difficulty with this one as atheism is just a lack of belief and there is no dogma to explain. Wait!! ....... I can see The Big Dog bringing Stalin in again ..... drat.
That's a good point. I usually think of that in terms of when a Catholic Christian sites the many "appearances" of Saint Mary. In Japanese Esoteric Buddhism (Shingon) there are many accounts of encounters with the Buddhist saint Kobo Daishi Kukai. The Fundamentalist of any religion will simply reply that such visitations were bogus or demonic. And the same regarding another's encounter in a different faith tradition. But it does give pause to a Thoughtful person.

I have a "nasty" habit I've carried over from my Theistic days. As a Theist I always felt I could speak my heart to God or Jesus and unburden about anything. This is still the way I process my feelings. If it's hard stuff, I take a long walk and speak it all out to that companion who isn't there as an objective being. This is therapy for more. I'm honest with my virtual therapist and bring my stuff to awareness. It's a form of Mindfulness Meditation. And I still feel a presence there, listening to me. When it's really intense, there's a feeling of an embracing acceptance. I go away from that with an open heart to others. I know better now how it works and don't try to objectify it into a heavenly parent. It's why I say that for me the Divine is a quality of relationship, not a supreme, individual person.

When I confess this to a Christian, the reply usually is: "I see. You believe in God after all." My reply is that by objectifying this into an individual existing person, a Christin gets a deluxe Zeus, and idol made in the Human image.

You might tell might to stop my ritual; that I'm playing with an imaginary friend. But I know I'm playing. And I like this play. It's heart opening for me in a way that just doesn't happen with my ordinary Human encounters.

This "Therapist" is not anymore the Judeo-Christian-Islamic-Bahai God. As a Secular Buddhist, it's the Buddha Nature or Enlightenment for me to be accessed by sitting in meditation or walking in a kind of prayer. At its best a religion offers tools of personal transcendence.

Years ago I was advised, "If you're going to demolish someone's shack, make sure you have a better house for them to live in." God is a shack. There is a palace of reality that transcends our ego hovels. It's not Sky Daddy. It's what is present before us. To learn to be with what is grants the freedom to let gods go, or play with them.

Most of the fault with religion is that its holy things become more important than people. The person standing before you is more sacred than any religious icon.
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Old 5th August 2018, 11:06 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
...
Most of the fault with religion is that its holy things become more important than people. The person standing before you is more sacred than any religious icon.
Quote:
Trust is not of our own making; it is given. Our life is so constituted that it cannot be lived except as one person lays him or herself open to another person and puts him or herself into that person’s hands either by showing or claiming trust. By our very attitude to another we help to shape that person’s world. By our attitude to the other person we help to determine the scope and hue of his or her world; we make it large or small, bright or drab, rich or dull, threatening or secure. We help to shape his or her world not by theories and views but by our very attitude towards him or her. Herein lies the unarticulated and one might say anonymous demand that we take care of the life which trust has placed in our hands.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knud_Ejler_L%C3%B8gstrup

From a Christian and though I am an atheist I try to live by that.
The sacred is in this world and it is in humans. I believe in this and I believe in humans.

With regard
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Old 5th August 2018, 11:16 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Is there someplace where the typing of the word “babble” in place of the word “Bible” is considered clever?

Bit ironic in a thread captioned “logic no entry religious mindset” (which in and of itself is more than a bit ironic)
So, you've no answers to the questions I raised. Noted.
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Old 5th August 2018, 11:21 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knud_Ejler_L%C3%B8gstrup

From a Christian and though I am an atheist I try to live by that.
The sacred is in this world and it is in humans. I believe in this and I believe in humans.

With regard


I believe in Grace.
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Old 5th August 2018, 11:31 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post


I believe in Grace.
Love!
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Old 6th August 2018, 08:47 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
Love!
And there it is folks. Some believers may be impervious to logic and facts, but most aren't impervious to Love. Sure they may go on believing in a Supreme Being, but Love will melt the rabid fundamentalism, and that's a big plus.
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Old 6th August 2018, 10:17 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
And there it is folks. Some believers may be impervious to logic and facts, but most aren't impervious to Love. Sure they may go on believing in a Supreme Being, but Love will melt the rabid fundamentalism, and that's a big plus.
As an atheist and secular humanist I still try to follow the sacred in humans, live by Grace and Love. And that is that. I try!
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Old 6th August 2018, 12:27 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Nope, in my opinion there are some anti-theists and some anti-religious fanatics.
I haven't followed on this subforum long enough to have your definitions of those terms, but they do not sound particularly inclusive of those I see here.
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Old 6th August 2018, 01:42 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
That's a good point. I usually think of that in terms of when a Catholic Christian sites the many "appearances" of Saint Mary. In Japanese Esoteric Buddhism (Shingon) there are many accounts of encounters with the Buddhist saint Kobo Daishi Kukai. The Fundamentalist of any religion will simply reply that such visitations were bogus or demonic. And the same regarding another's encounter in a different faith tradition. But it does give pause to a Thoughtful person.
Most certainly it seems the nature of the encounter with the apparent supernatural is a product of the religious conditioning of the observer.

Quote:
I have a "nasty" habit I've carried over from my Theistic days. As a Theist I always felt I could speak my heart to God or Jesus and unburden about anything. This is still the way I process my feelings. If it's hard stuff, I take a long walk and speak it all out to that companion who isn't there as an objective being. This is therapy for more. I'm honest with my virtual therapist and bring my stuff to awareness. It's a form of Mindfulness Meditation. And I still feel a presence there, listening to me. When it's really intense, there's a feeling of an embracing acceptance. I go away from that with an open heart to others. I know better now how it works and don't try to objectify it into a heavenly parent. It's why I say that for me the Divine is a quality of relationship, not a supreme, individual person.
Your nasty habit seems to be quite benign and no threat to yourself and others.


Quote:
When I confess this to a Christian, the reply usually is: "I see. You believe in God after all." My reply is that by objectifying this into an individual existing person, a Christin gets a deluxe Zeus, and idol made in the Human image.
Oh yes of course the Christian will see your experiences as acknowledgement of your belief in God. Not just any god however but their own, the Abrahamic one who has morphed into the three part entity, not the other two versions of this same god.

Quote:
You might tell might to stop my ritual; that I'm playing with an imaginary friend. But I know I'm playing. And I like this play. It's heart opening for me in a way that just doesn't happen with my ordinary Human encounters.

This "Therapist" is not anymore the Judeo-Christian-Islamic-Bahai God. As a Secular Buddhist, it's the Buddha Nature or Enlightenment for me to be accessed by sitting in meditation or walking in a kind of prayer. At its best a religion offers tools of personal transcendence.

Years ago I was advised, "If you're going to demolish someone's shack, make sure you have a better house for them to live in." God is a shack. There is a palace of reality that transcends our ego hovels. It's not Sky Daddy. It's what is present before us. To learn to be with what is grants the freedom to let gods go, or play with them.

Most of the fault with religion is that its holy things become more important than people. The person standing before you is more sacred than any religious icon.
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Old 6th August 2018, 01:50 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
I haven't followed on this subforum long enough to have your definitions of those terms, but they do not sound particularly inclusive of those I see here.
The Big Dog finds comfort in dismissing the words of others, that question the bona fides of his "One True Church", as the rantings of anti-theist fanatics.
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Old 6th August 2018, 02:14 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
If there weren't a it wouldn't be the Tao.

I recommend Tommy Jeppersen's replies as being less esoteric.
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Old 7th August 2018, 02:53 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by Apathia View Post
If there weren't a it wouldn't be the Tao.

I recommend Tommy Jeppersen's replies as being less esoteric.
Yeah, you need some form of the Tao to get it.
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Old 7th August 2018, 08:23 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
I think the religious are the biggest victims of religion,
Indeed, they are slaves to their beliefs; willing slaves, but slaves nontheless
Quote:
and would like to ease them out of the affliction they find themselves in.
Not worth the trouble. They want to believe - they need to believe, and so they will continue to believe; until such time as they no longer need to believe in a superior being.

Logic is quite beyond them.
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Old 7th August 2018, 11:27 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Indeed, they are slaves to their beliefs; willing slaves, but slaves nontheless

Not worth the trouble. They want to believe - they need to believe, and so they will continue to believe; until such time as they no longer need to believe in a superior being.

Logic is quite beyond them.
Hoo boy, too bad Randi don't have his Challenge anymore, mind reading like that would have gave them a run for their money!
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Old 7th August 2018, 01:29 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
Indeed, they are slaves to their beliefs; willing slaves, but slaves nontheless

Not worth the trouble. They want to believe - they need to believe, and so they will continue to believe; until such time as they no longer need to believe in a superior being.

Logic is quite beyond them.

You are too pessimistic Lplus. There are many of the once faithful who have come out the other side and expressed relief at having shed the tentacles of faith. Matt Dillahunty of The Atheist Experience is one such dude. He was even a preacher in a former life.
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Old 7th August 2018, 01:33 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Hoo boy, too bad Randi don't have his Challenge anymore, mind reading like that would have gave them a run for their money!

You would impress us more if you were to answer the questions put to you by MikeG and myself The Big Dog.
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Old 7th August 2018, 02:21 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
You are too pessimistic Lplus. There are many of the once faithful who have come out the other side and expressed relief at having shed the tentacles of faith. Matt Dillahunty of The Atheist Experience is one such dude. He was even a preacher in a former life.
I'm not that pessimistic really, I did allow the possibility of losing the need to believe; and clearly you know of those who have done so.
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Old 7th August 2018, 02:56 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
I'm not that pessimistic really, I did allow the possibility of losing the need to believe; and clearly you know of those who have done so.

Good to hear. Have you heard of The Clergy Project? This is a society of non believing clergy. Clergy that have lost their faith and are struggling to find their way out. Although this seems insincere in the most extreme way, as many are still preaching, you can understand the dilemma they find themselves in. Not wanting to disappoint all those that surround them and well, they just don't have any other vocation they can turn to.

From what I read I sense disbelief is very common among Catholic clergy. They even have special priests that help other priests who are "having problems with their faith". The notion of "loving the church" looms large in Catholicism also, as distinct from but not excluding, loving God. The extraordinary number of clergy found culpable of protecting the name of the church rather than protecting the child victims of abuse may be explained by this.
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Old 8th August 2018, 03:33 AM   #70
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No, never heard of that project, and yes I imagine it could be quite devastating for those concerned.

That said I have no intention of speculating on the effects on any particular religion.
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Old 8th August 2018, 04:11 AM   #71
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I don't try to deprogram or convert anyone. I only try to keep religious reasoning in its place. When vexed, normally I'll ask if it's OK if I testify against them in a murder trial claiming God revealed their guilt in a vision. If they have any remaining pulse at that time, they may try to define what good evidence is. Then, of course, I'll use that against them in every court of opinion we face off in thenceforth.

Otherwise, questioning the entire worldview held by a mind suffering from indoctrination is too hard a slog all at once, as often, personal superiority-by-association is all they got going for them.
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Old 8th August 2018, 06:17 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I don't try to deprogram or convert anyone. I only try to keep religious reasoning in its place. When vexed, normally I'll ask if it's OK if I testify against them in a murder trial claiming God revealed their guilt in a vision. If they have any remaining pulse at that time, they may try to define what good evidence is. Then, of course, I'll use that against them in every court of opinion we face off in thenceforth.

Otherwise, questioning the entire worldview held by a mind suffering from indoctrination is too hard a slog all at once, as often, personal superiority-by-association is all they got going for them.
THAT is your go to argument? Tell you what, if Our Lord comes to you in a vision and tells you to testify against me or anyone else in a murder trial, by all means you do it! Logic

Good to see another believer here my friend, praise be to God.
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Old 8th August 2018, 08:27 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
THAT is your go to argument? Tell you what, if Our Lord comes to you in a vision and tells you to testify against me or anyone else in a murder trial, by all means you do it! Logic

Good to see another believer here my friend, praise be to God.
Whooshing sounds are soothing, but pray tell: What is factual evidence?
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Old 8th August 2018, 08:43 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Whooshing sounds are soothing, but pray tell: What is factual evidence?
I guess they are, because you didn't address my point in the slightest.

Let me repeat it again:

"If Our Lord comes to you in a vision and tells you to testify against me or anyone else in a murder trial, by all means you do it!"
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Old 8th August 2018, 10:48 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I guess they are, because you didn't address my point in the slightest.

Let me repeat it again:

"If Our Lord comes to you in a vision and tells you to testify against me or anyone else in a murder trial, by all means you do it!"
But I think the question is whether you or anyone else should give that testimony the weight of evidence.
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Old 8th August 2018, 11:05 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
I don't try to deprogram or convert anyone. I only try to keep religious reasoning in its place. When vexed, normally I'll ask if it's OK if I testify against them in a murder trial claiming God revealed their guilt in a vision. If they have any remaining pulse at that time, they may try to define what good evidence is. Then, of course, I'll use that against them in every court of opinion we face off in thenceforth.

Otherwise, questioning the entire worldview held by a mind suffering from indoctrination is too hard a slog all at once, as often, personal superiority-by-association is all they got going for them.
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
But I think the question is whether you or anyone else should give that testimony the weight of evidence.
If someone asks me "if it's OK if I testify against them in a murder trial claiming God revealed their guilt in a vision," the first question I am going to ask is not about "good evidence," it is going to be how, when, and where he got that vision, and how one can continue to doubt the existence of the Almighty after such a vision.

Logic, you know?
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Old 8th August 2018, 11:21 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
If someone asks me "if it's OK if I testify against them in a murder trial claiming God revealed their guilt in a vision," the first question I am going to ask is not about "good evidence," it is going to be how, when, and where he got that vision, and how one can continue to doubt the existence of the Almighty after such a vision.

Logic, you know?
Logically speaking, I would not want you the jury for my trial.
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Old 8th August 2018, 11:25 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Logically speaking, I would not want you the jury for my trial.
Logically speaking, I don't think the best argument against God starts with the premise (paraphrasing here) "I had a vision from God."
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Old 8th August 2018, 11:47 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I guess they are, because you didn't address my point in the slightest.

Let me repeat it again:

"If Our Lord comes to you in a vision and tells you to testify against me or anyone else in a murder trial, by all means you do it!"
You are being silly because there is no way that any judge would allow such testimony to be heard in his court.
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Old 8th August 2018, 11:51 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
You are being silly because there is no way that any judge would allow such testimony to be heard in his court.
Ain't my hypothetical, and as such it is certainly not me who is being silly.
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