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Old 8th August 2018, 11:58 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Ain't my hypothetical, and as such it is certainly not me who is being silly.
Usual evasion noted.
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Old 8th August 2018, 12:00 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Usual evasion noted.
lolz,

'k.
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Old 8th August 2018, 12:14 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
lolz,

'k.
I expected as much.

If your God was actually anywhere near as great as you like to say, then you would have something substantive to say your God.
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Old 8th August 2018, 12:19 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
I expected as much.

If your God was actually anywhere near as great as you like to say, then you would have something substantive to say your God.
You expected me to laugh at your post?

Also pretty sure that my post was not directed to God, rather it substantively pointed out that I didn't create the spectacularly silly hypothetical.

Looking forward to a response that accuses me of evading your post again, or something, I'm sure I will get a kick out of it, tho!

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Old 8th August 2018, 12:50 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
You expected me to laugh at your post?

Also pretty sure that my post was not directed to God, rather it substantively pointed out that I didn't create the spectacularly silly hypothetical.

Looking forward to a response that accuses me of evading your post again, or something, I'm sure I will get a kick out of it, tho!

Usual evasion noted.
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Old 8th August 2018, 12:56 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I guess they are, because you didn't address my point in the slightest.

Let me repeat it again:

"If Our Lord comes to you in a vision and tells you to testify against me or anyone else in a murder trial, by all means you do it!"
Your insistence that any such claim bears weight, or could ever bear weight, clearly indicates you do not, in fact, have a good grasp of what might constitute elementary facts. Declarative proclamations are worthless absent corroborating evidence. Regardless, my earlier comment spoke to how to deal with people in circumstances in which I can use settings, moment and mood to effect. Not meant for dealing with online fantasies. For that, the boot. As you already know.
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Old 8th August 2018, 12:56 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Crossbow View Post
Usual evasion noted.
Bwhahaha!! Fantastic.

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Old 8th August 2018, 01:06 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Your insistence that any such claim bears weight, or could ever bear weight, clearly indicates you do not, in fact, have a good grasp of what might constitute elementary facts. Declarative proclamations are worthless absent corroborating evidence. Regardless, my earlier comment spoke to how to deal with people in circumstances in which I can use settings, moment and mood to effect. Not meant for dealing with online fantasies. For that, the boot. As you already know.
That would appear to be your insistence, would it not, how when vexed you state a hypothetical (perhaps using the settings, moment and mood, to reflect your vexation) and then expect your opponent to stammer out some weak comment (in light of the settings, moment and mood) "to try to define what good evidence is (that is if they have any pulse) which you will use to vex "them in every court of opinion we face off in thenceforth."

When in reality any reasonable response would be to point out how utterly ludicrous your hypothetical is even in light of the settings, moment and mood.

Great thread, particularly in light of the the settings, moment and mood.
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Old 8th August 2018, 01:19 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Bwhahaha!! Fantastic.

More and more of your usual evasions.

It sure is telling how you continually fail to simply write some text which actually does defend your own God.
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Old 8th August 2018, 02:42 PM   #90
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As usual The Big Dog is ignoring the questions asked by myself and others, and taking every opportunity to deviate the discussion, into peripheral skirmishes he creates.

I asked the question regarding the lineage of Jesus, which is one of the classic examples of Biblical inconsistency and could even be described as Biblical nonsense, when the virgin birth notion is introduced. I have yet to see anything approaching a reasonable defence of this glaring flaw in scripture, and The Big Dog obviously has nothing to offer either.

It is well known the RCC accepts evolution as fact today. This for many seems to shut the door on criticism about conflict between science and Biblical dogma. For me however I see this as opening another chasm for Christianity to fall into.

Christianity needs ORIGINAL SIN ....... it cannot survive without it. Without it there would be no need for Jesus to do his time on the cross. There would be no need for Jesus!

So if evolution is accepted as the way God did his creation how did we get Adam and Eve? Adam and Eve created in the image of God no less? We need them to commit original sin.

Was God watching the evolution of mankind and at some point along the path of development decided, “OK this man looks enough like me now so he gets a soul”, and then selects a woman resembling his female side who gets one as well? How does this line up with the idea of man being made perfect "in God's image"?
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Old 8th August 2018, 03:14 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
No, never heard of that project, and yes I imagine it could be quite devastating for those concerned.

That said I have no intention of speculating on the effects on any particular religion.

You may be interested in viewing this video by Dan Dennett.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Bwe7TIv4LY

Dan kicked off the clergy project and speaks about disbelieving clergy. How they got to be where they are and the problems they face.

It occurs to me that this should give Catholics most pause. As they wonder about the quality of absolution given, by the perhaps atheist priest, on the other side of the curtain.
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Old 8th August 2018, 03:23 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Logically speaking, I don't think the best argument against God starts with the premise (paraphrasing here) "I had a vision from God."
It may not be a good argument against God, but it does not answer the question of whether such a claim constitutes the kind of evidence you'd consider allowable. Whatever gods may or may not exist, many people have made many assertions about revelations. It's rather unlikely that all are true, but even if some are entirely so, I would contend that they do not meet any reasonable standard for evidence. Not on the grounds of being true or false, but on the grounds of not being acceptable as evidence.
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Old 8th August 2018, 03:35 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post

I asked the question regarding the lineage of Jesus, which is one of the classic examples of Biblical inconsistency and could even be described as Biblical nonsense, when the virgin birth notion is introduced. I have yet to see anything approaching a reasonable defence of this glaring flaw in scripture, and The Big Dog obviously has nothing to offer either.
I missed this earlier request (actually my eyes glazed over after reading the first line of the original post) Gosh, the lineage of Jesus differs very much more so than you even let on, I ams therefore the atheist!

The two genealogies do not contradict, they were written by different people for different purposes, to different audiences. If one were to trace anyone's genealogy back, it would not be unusual to trace that back to a single person through two or more separate lines.

Thus, in your own family tree, one would find the same person filling different slots (heck maybe the same slot) as one traces it back through the generations.
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Old 8th August 2018, 04:06 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
As usual The Big Dog is ignoring the questions asked by myself and others, and taking every opportunity to deviate the discussion, into peripheral skirmishes he creates.

I asked the question regarding the lineage of Jesus, which is one of the classic examples of Biblical inconsistency and could even be described as Biblical nonsense, when the virgin birth notion is introduced. I have yet to see anything approaching a reasonable defence of this glaring flaw in scripture, and The Big Dog obviously has nothing to offer either.

It is well known the RCC accepts evolution as fact today. This for many seems to shut the door on criticism about conflict between science and Biblical dogma. For me however I see this as opening another chasm for Christianity to fall into.

Christianity needs ORIGINAL SIN ....... it cannot survive without it. Without it there would be no need for Jesus to do his time on the cross. There would be no need for Jesus!

So if evolution is accepted as the way God did his creation how did we get Adam and Eve? Adam and Eve created in the image of God no less? We need them to commit original sin.

Was God watching the evolution of mankind and at some point along the path of development decided, “OK this man looks enough like me now so he gets a soul”, and then selects a woman resembling his female side who gets one as well? How does this line up with the idea of man being made perfect "in God's image"?
Unfortunately for this argument there are Christologies that interpret "original sin" not as an historical event but as an existential condition, a state of estrangement from God, or a spiritual ignorance. For each there is a way in which the Christ event offers a cure. Christianity is very resilient.
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Old 8th August 2018, 04:12 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
Had long been intrigued by this after many discussions with the religious. Dogma can be so contradictory, and yet the faithful can be so accepting and take it on board, making little or no effort to rationalise.

Peter Boghossian in his "A Manual for Creating Atheists." confronts this hurdle by asking the religious believer to state and justify their contentious beliefs. The procedure seems laborious and success elusive judging from the case histories.

Anyone here have any techniques they have developed?
I've had success with Mormons but I suspect that has more to do with the ease with which one can debunk Mormon beliefs and that they attempt to engage. I maintain a reasonably strict "don't fire unless fired upon" policy with the god botherers and it's generally Mormons who trespass on that policy. Honestly, with the ease with which one can debunk the Book of Mormon, it's frankly, irresponsible to send their missionaries out with the serious lack of preparedness that they do.

Conventional Christian irrational beliefs say of Catholics tend to require a bit more effort to research the periods in question. I admit to amusing myself a few times with street preachers and discussions of their acceptance of Jesus's gay BDSM afternoon to be saved, but that's only when I'm in Portland, Oregon.
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Old 8th August 2018, 04:14 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
No that wasn’t obvious...
Have you even met Thor 2?
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Old 8th August 2018, 04:43 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
I missed this earlier request (actually my eyes glazed over after reading the first line of the original post) Gosh, the lineage of Jesus differs very much more so than you even let on, I ams therefore the atheist!

The two genealogies do not contradict, they were written by different people for different purposes, to different audiences. If one were to trace anyone's genealogy back, it would not be unusual to trace that back to a single person through two or more separate lines.

Thus, in your own family tree, one would find the same person filling different slots (heck maybe the same slot) as one traces it back through the generations.
Here is where they differ:
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. Matthew 1:16

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli. Luke 3:23
So who was Joseph's father? Jacob or Heli? Surely the father of one person cannot fill different slots?
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Old 8th August 2018, 04:54 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Lplus View Post
No, never heard of that project, and yes I imagine it could be quite devastating for those concerned.

That said I have no intention of speculating on the effects on any particular religion.
It pretty much means the brainwashing has worn off.

I know of a number of religious people (even some clergy) who, while they still believe in God, nonetheless do not believe that everything in the Biblical account is verbatim, literal truth. They hold more that the writers of the Bible wrote their interpretations based things they were told, by people who did not fully understand what they were seeing or reporting.
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Old 8th August 2018, 06:34 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by arthwollipot View Post
Here is where they differ:
And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. Matthew 1:16

And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli. Luke 3:23
So who was Joseph's father? Jacob or Heli? Surely the father of one person cannot fill different slots?
Joseph wasn't Jesus's biological father, so it doesn't matter anyways. Presumably, despite tracing the lineage of Joseph, it's Mary's lineage that would matter here. When I inquired about this, I was told that it is thought that Mary also descended from David. You would think God would have mentioned to someone to keep better records on these matters...
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Old 8th August 2018, 09:26 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Joseph wasn't Jesus's biological father, so it doesn't matter anyways.
Except that it does. Jewish law, then and now, traces inheritance through the male line. He literally couldn't be an adult without a comprehensive male genealogy. Which is interesting since his father seems to have two fathers.
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Old 8th August 2018, 10:43 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
The two genealogies do not contradict, they were written by different people for different purposes, to different audiences. If one were to trace anyone's genealogy back, it would not be unusual to trace that back to a single person through two or more separate lines.
That's the whole ******* point. It was written by PEOPLE with different agendas.
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Old 9th August 2018, 02:58 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
You are too pessimistic Lplus. There are many of the once faithful who have come out the other side and expressed relief at having shed the tentacles of faith. Matt Dillahunty of The Atheist Experience is one such dude. He was even a preacher in a former life.
Almost correct. He was planning to become a Baptist minister, but became an atheist before that ever happened.
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Old 9th August 2018, 03:04 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Logically speaking, I don't think the best argument against God starts with the premise (paraphrasing here) "I had a vision from God."
It isn't? So what's the deal with Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus? That didn't count?

In any event, if true, what is the best argument for god?
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Old 9th August 2018, 03:09 AM   #104
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
It isn't? So what's the deal with Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus? That didn't count?

In any event, if true, what is the best argument for god?
There is no best argument using reasoning, logic, proof, evidence and so.
The best argument is a feeling/emotion, that it subjectively makes sense to believe.
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Old 9th August 2018, 03:22 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
It pretty much means the brainwashing has worn off.

I know of a number of religious people (even some clergy) who, while they still believe in God, nonetheless do not believe that everything in the Biblical account is verbatim, literal truth. They hold more that the writers of the Bible wrote their interpretations based things they were told, by people who did not fully understand what they were seeing or reporting.
I got the impression that Thor 2 was referring to those who had lost all faith in God as opposed to those who just accepted that their holy scriptures didn't need to be followed word for word. Perhaps I was wrong, but in the case of those who still believed but were not fanatical adherants to the literal word of their scripures, I'd still say they needed to believe in a God.
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Old 9th August 2018, 04:45 AM   #106
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Apropos of "deprogramming," perhaps it is an ethical imperative after all:

WaPo: A 10-month-old died after her parents refused to get help for religious reasons, police say

Quote:
In a Facebook video titled “Vaccinations/health/medical industry,” Welch criticized the health-care industry. “I’m not opposed to medicine or doctors,” he said. “I’m opposed to bad medicine and doctors that are just, well, aren’t really doctors — they’re priesthoods of the medical cult. They have a certificate from some training camp somewhere that says they got this test score, but that doesn’t mean they know about the human body and stuff like that.” He explained that he thinks doctors would have to believe in creationism to be able to successfully treat patients.
Being incapable of recognizing evidence or using fact-based reasoning can be lethal, apart from being simply tedious in online threads.
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Old 9th August 2018, 05:06 AM   #107
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Originally Posted by Hlafordlaes View Post
Apropos of "deprogramming," perhaps it is an ethical imperative after all:

WaPo: A 10-month-old died after her parents refused to get help for religious reasons, police say



Being incapable of recognizing evidence or using fact-based reasoning can be lethal, apart from being simply tedious in online threads.
How is lethal bad?
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Old 9th August 2018, 05:12 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by Tommy Jeppesen View Post
How is lethal bad?
In my case, it would end the show I'm starring in and close the curtains. I'm still enjoying being alive, thanks.

tl;dr: Not a preferred option.
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Old 9th August 2018, 06:06 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by TheGoldcountry View Post
That's the whole ******* point. It was written by PEOPLE with different agendas.
Mmmmm, cherry picking... Here are the parts you did not highlight:

The two genealogies do not contradict.... If one were to trace anyone's genealogy back, it would not be unusual to trace that back to a single person through two or more separate lines.
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Old 9th August 2018, 06:19 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
Mmmmm, cherry picking... Here are the parts you did not highlight:

The two genealogies do not contradict.... If one were to trace anyone's genealogy back, it would not be unusual to trace that back to a single person through two or more separate lines.
I refer you to post #97.

Apparently Joseph had two fathers.

Looks like a contradiction to me.
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Old 9th August 2018, 07:59 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
I refer you to post #97.

Apparently Joseph had two fathers.

Looks like a contradiction to me.
well, as they say, lets work the problem!

Lets think of all the ways that someone can have two "fathers," I can think of three right off the bat!
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Old 9th August 2018, 01:52 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
well, as they say, lets work the problem!

Lets think of all the ways that someone can have two "fathers," I can think of three right off the bat!

There you go again. Off on a tangent and not addressing the argument so clearly put to you.

Besides this, you as a Catholic "know" that Mary was a virgin! Jesus had no earthly father right?
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Old 9th August 2018, 01:57 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
There you go again. Off on a tangent and not addressing the argument so clearly put to you.
What I have found is that rather than addressing what I wrote, which was DIRECTLY responsive to the post to which I was replying, folks declare that i am off on a tangent, and not responding to the argument, and then, as here, completely change the subject to:

"Besides this, you as a Catholic "know" that Mary was a virgin! Jesus had no earthly father right?"

Rincewind and i were discussing Joseph's father(s). C'mon man, at least read the post to which i was referring before posting nonsense.
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Old 9th August 2018, 01:59 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
There you go again. Off on a tangent and not addressing the argument so clearly put to you.

Besides this, you as a Catholic "know" that Mary was a virgin! Jesus had no earthly father right?
Hard to tell given he has already rejected Paul as a valid christian. That's a healthy portion of the NT tossed out. Who knows which part will be rejected next.
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Old 9th August 2018, 02:19 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post
What I have found is that rather than addressing what I wrote, which was DIRECTLY responsive to the post to which I was replying, folks declare that i am off on a tangent, and not responding to the argument, and then, as here, completely change the subject to:

"Besides this, you as a Catholic "know" that Mary was a virgin! Jesus had no earthly father right?"

Rincewind and i were discussing Joseph's father(s). C'mon man, at least read the post to which i was referring before posting nonsense.

You know perfectly well that the issue at hand is the lineage of Jesus. The inconsistent accounts regarding the lineage of Mary's husband, is just an illustration of the absurdity of the Bible. Mathew and Luke were not aware of the virginal status of Mary or had a mental block perhaps. You as a Catholic know she was a virgin however so why are you bothering with this? Not just evading the issue again are we?

On the other hand do you reject the virgin Mary idea, (saints preserve us!), along with the works of Paul as abbadon has pointed out?
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Old 9th August 2018, 02:26 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by abaddon View Post
Hard to tell given he has already rejected Paul as a valid christian. That's a healthy portion of the NT tossed out. Who knows which part will be rejected next.

Yes I recall an exchange some time back when The Big Dog made some negative comments regarding the veracity of Paul's scripture. That was back in the days you could sometimes get an honest answer from him on a topic. Now he just evades all questions completely as the safest approach.
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Old 9th August 2018, 02:27 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Thor 2 View Post
You know perfectly well that the issue at hand is the lineage of Jesus.


Rincewind and I were discussing a specific. issue. regarding. the. lineage. of. Jesus.

Just gobsmacked at this point with the nonsense that gets floated in here.

eta: Ah, now we we are on about some nonsense about Paul which has, of course, zilch to do with this thread.

Talk about evading the question!

Thanks for posting.
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Old 9th August 2018, 03:54 PM   #118
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Originally Posted by The Big Dog View Post


Rincewind and I were discussing a specific. issue. regarding. the. lineage. of. Jesus.

Just gobsmacked at this point with the nonsense that gets floated in here.

eta: Ah, now we we are on about some nonsense about Paul which has, of course, zilch to do with this thread.

Talk about evading the question!

Thanks for posting.
I had hoped you'd provide an answer.

I'm sure you're more of a biblical expert than I am, so, please can you explain the biblical reason for Joseph having two fathers?
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Old 9th August 2018, 04:40 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
I had hoped you'd provide an answer.

I'm sure you're more of a biblical expert than I am, so, please can you explain the biblical reason for Joseph having two fathers?
Should I try it for him, since he seems reluctant to respond?
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Old 9th August 2018, 05:09 PM   #120
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Originally Posted by Rincewind View Post
I had hoped you'd provide an answer.

I'm sure you're more of a biblical expert than I am, so, please can you explain the biblical reason for Joseph having two fathers?
Sure. There are biological fathers, adoptive fathers, stepfathers, fathers in law, and Levitical fathers under Jewish law.

I hoped you would take a stab at the question

It is cool tho.

I think based on the language that one was his biological father and one was his father in law!

Thoughts?
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