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Old 8th August 2018, 06:12 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
It's one of the paradoxes of motion from Zeno.
As opposed to his Paradox of Emotion, which was on the top ten electronic music charts for nineteen weeks. It's been remixed hundreds of times.
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Old 8th August 2018, 06:18 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The guy seemed to equate the bike with the shooting. I'm wondering if she was wearing colors? Might explain his intensity
Or - hear me out - maybe racists tend to act like complete fools in public.m makes people act like absolute fools in public.

Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Such an inconvenience it must be, having a subforum dedicated to current events being cluttered up with threads about current events (where racism happens). I can't imagine how much more inconvenient it must be when those racism event threads are actually things that actually happen to you personally in the course of your life on a daily basis.
Yep. It's the out-of-nowhere enraged racism that's among the worst - whether it's some stranger, or (as we've seen repeatedly from Dolt 45) from someone well-known to everyone and who has some level of authority. ANd a large part of the problem is the number of people who don't have a clue how to handle the very basic idea "Oh, yeah, this is clearly racist." If people were at all good at noticing it, everyone would have said "Yep, Trump's a racist" once he started pushing that birther nonsense. Instead, there's a bunch of "Oh but what about this far-fetched explanation?" or "Well, it must have been deserved for some unknown reason."
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Old 9th August 2018, 07:43 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
lol

I'm reminded of a story I read back when I was still at school. A math professor - or perhaps a philosopher? I forget which, it was such a long time ago - was trying to explain to his class why it is, in fact, physically impossible for a person to walk across the room and touch another person.

If I remember right, the explanation went something like this: in order for a person to traverse any distance whatsoever, they must first traverse half that distance. And then before they can traverse the other half, they must first traverse half the remaining distance - and then again half the then-remaining difference, and so on, and so on. Since every possible remaining distance however minute can be halved, and must be half-traversed again, it is logically impossible that a journey between two points can ever be completed.

I do not recall if at this point in the story the professor invites an attempt at rebuttal; but whether or not, a student gets up from his desk, calmly approaches the professor, reaches out, and touches his arm. Which riles up the professor, who angrily asserts that the student missed the point.

The black people posting these videos, complaints, and stories about slices of their daily lives, are telling us - in as many words, even - that this IS the "Black Experience".
Well, I hope these advocates are exaggerating for effect, or forgetting to acknowledge that these LWB posts are really not very good examples.

I've said this many times on many threads, I think racism is much more insidious than these threads portray it as. If the OP is an example of it, it's not nearly as bad as I thought. So if it's all the same to you, I'm going to continue believing that the problem is more serious and wore widespread than these LWB posts suggest.


Quote:
...and then you make an argument, based on population statistics, that racist incidents like these could happen literally millions of times a day across the country and still not be worth your attention.
That's a lie. I pointed out that the relative scarcity of these LWB postings could relegate them to the fringe incident range. Is that anything but skeptical? An anecdote here and there from a country of over 300,000,000 is not significant, and I think you know it. I mean, FFS, I've seen as many videos of people being struck by lightning as there are LWB threads.

I am fully aware that racism exists, and is rampant. My sole argument here is that these threads are awful examples of it, and might consequently be doing more harm than good.
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Old 9th August 2018, 09:43 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
Although in this case, the guy came back out on the street again shouting the n-word. That suggest to me it was at partly about more than the bike.
But apparently that is not racist at all according to many regulars here. Lots of totally not racist people regularly rant in public about the ******** *******.

Edited by kmortis:  Edited to conform to Rule 10
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Old 9th August 2018, 09:45 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You're missing the point. Its not a current event. Running across an ******* is an everyday event, and an unremarkable one. In this OP, even the police did the right thing, as they should have (I think they should have arrestef in the first video, but better late than never). Does this show The Black Experience? I doubt it. We all cross paths with smackers like this guy, and pretty regularly.
Exactly just like running across racist garbage is an everyday event. These are truly bannal and not remarkable. Yet the very banality of them is exactly the point.
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Old 9th August 2018, 09:48 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
lol

I'm reminded of a story I read back when I was still at school. A math professor - or perhaps a philosopher? I forget which, it was such a long time ago - was trying to explain to his class why it is, in fact, physically impossible for a person to walk across the room and touch another person.

If I remember right, the explanation went something like this: in order for a person to traverse any distance whatsoever, they must first traverse half that distance. And then before they can traverse the other half, they must first traverse half the remaining distance - and then again half the then-remaining difference, and so on, and so on. Since every possible remaining distance however minute can be halved, and must be half-traversed again, it is logically impossible that a journey between two points can ever be completed.

I do not recall if at this point in the story the professor invites an attempt at rebuttal; but whether or not, a student gets up from his desk, calmly approaches the professor, reaches out, and touches his arm. Which riles up the professor, who angrily asserts that the student missed the point.

The black people posting these videos, complaints, and stories about slices of their daily lives, are telling us - in as many words, even - that this IS the "Black Experience".

Your reply:




...and then you make an argument, based on population statistics, that racist incidents like these could happen literally millions of times a day across the country and still not be worth your attention.
Minor derail, that sounds like the professor explaining Zeno's paradoxes
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Old 9th August 2018, 09:50 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Exactly just like running across racist garbage is an everyday event. These are truly bannal and not remarkable. Yet the very banality of them is exactly the point.
Yes, a racist ******* is a common thing. So is a misogynistic *******. So is a wealthy snob *******, or a Holy Roller *******, or a political tribe *******. Many and varied are the kind of jerks we all run across. So?
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Old 9th August 2018, 09:55 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, a racist ******* is a common thing. So is a misogynistic *******. So is a wealthy snob *******, or a Holy Roller *******, or a political tribe *******. Many and varied are the kind of jerks we all run across. So?
Yep makes it easy to ignore systemic and institutional racism. Because everyone runs into jerks so as no individual act is noteworthy or something anyone should do anything about the sum of them is all pointless and ignorable.

Women and blacks need to toughen up like white men and just accept the jerks of the world exist and move on to being productive instead of all this complaining about sexual harassment on the street or racist attacks. Suck it up.
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Old 9th August 2018, 10:12 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
The black people posting these videos, complaints, and stories about slices of their daily lives, are telling us - in as many words, even - that this IS the "Black Experience".
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That's a lie. I pointed out that the relative scarcity of these LWB postings could relegate them to the fringe incident range. Is that anything but skeptical? An anecdote here and there from a country of over 300,000,000 is not significant, and I think you know it. I mean, FFS, I've seen as many videos of people being struck by lightning as there are LWB threads.

I am fully aware that racism exists, and is rampant. My sole argument here is that these threads are awful examples of it, and might consequently be doing more harm than good.

No. They're not doing any harm to anyone who does not already lean toward denialism. They're there to show that racism isn't always about the occassional overt, blatant, epithet-spewing, violent attacks. That there is an undercurrent of racism that is subtle, pervasive, and constant, things that happen on a near-daily basis to people of colour, and demonstrate a deeper cultural racism that white people simply don't notice, since it doesn't affect them directly. The denialist response is to take those incidents as occurring in a vacuum, as "isolated incidents", and use that tactic to generate plausible deniability.

A little analogy from my own experience. When I was a teenager, I would often be followed around shops by owners or security, keeping an eye on me. Especially when I was with my friends. It was a regular occurrence, and after a while I just started tuning it out, even though I was always aware that it was happening. I was never threatened, never ejected from a shop, never addressed directly, just had the suspicious looks following me anywhere I went.

When I became an adult, I stopped getting followed around nearly as often. Now, it does still happen on very rare occasions (and always seems to be Chinese or Korean women who do it, for some odd reason); but nowhere even close to the frequency that it happened when I was a teenager. The conclusion? There was a suspicion of teenagers, an expectation that they were there to steal or cause trouble, simply because of the fact that they were teenagers. There was a stereotype of teenagers as thieves and troublemakers in their minds.

Now, looking at all that, yes, there were a few who were paranoid of anyone, regardless of their age, but the majority targeted only one specific demographic, teenagers.

And that is what the frequency of these events and the comments surrounding them demonstrate. Yes, a few may simply be individual outliers, but that doesn't account for the fact that this incidents are part of a much larger pattern.

Let's look at this comment again:

Quote:
An anecdote here and there from a country of over 300,000,000 is not significant, and I think you know it. I mean, FFS, I've seen as many videos of people being struck by lightning as there are LWB threads.

And another tactic of the denialists, pretend that a tiny handful of reported incidents are the only examples of those incidents, and that if they're not reported in some sort of new source, they're not happening. You and others are ignoring the background context which has been elucidated by many here, in that these are not the only incidents of their kind, they are merely representative examples of a much wider pattern of experience.

White people who are rarely encounter these incidents are quick to brush them off with the plausible deniability excuse, insisting that they're just a few incidents of people being jackasses. They're flatly ignoring the fact that incidents like these are constantly happening to black and other minority people. These are the near-daily experiences of many non-white people.

Yes, a few could be written off as the infrequent jackass; but the sheer prevalence of this behaviour when minorities are involved compared to white people indicates that the bulk of them are the result of a more subtle but pervasive underlying cultural racism, as is the tendency to deny their existence or prevalence by mainstream white culture. That's the issue that is being ignored or denied. As ponderingturtle pointed out, the very banality, the commonality, is part of the point.
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Old 9th August 2018, 10:44 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes, a racist ******* is a common thing. So is a misogynistic *******. So is a wealthy snob *******, or a Holy Roller *******, or a political tribe *******. Many and varied are the kind of jerks we all run across. So?
Because there is evidence that it adversely affects the opportunities for people from ethnic minorities. In the UK as well as the US.

If you are a fairly unremarkable white male (like me) you might have the odd interaction with a git, but for example you won't have your CV (resume) rejected out of hand because your name sounds foreign. (Similar studies have been performed in the US).

Mumbles has posted about his experiences of racism before. These threads highlight the fact that the big problem isn't the white supremacists, but more the people who have unconscious bias that probably colours all their interactions with non-white people. Sadly, it also affects blacks, who find that they often have unconscious bias against blacks.
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Old 9th August 2018, 10:55 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Crunching the numbers a little, if there are three interracial exchanges a day between 300,000,000 people, that's something like a billion per day. Even a million Living While Black threads per day would represent a small fraction of a percent of them. That's my objection to these threads; they show occasional bigots, but not even remotely representing the problem. This one is some drunk furious guy. Does it shed light on anything? Just that there are smacked asses running around. Don't we know that already?
I think you are missing something . . . what percentage of black people have had a similar experience? How often do they experience it? Those are the relevant stats. I'd be willing to bet that virtually every black person in America has had some kind of personal negative experience with racism. If that's true, then it really doesn't matter if such incidents are relatively rare; that every Black American has experienced them is troubling enough.
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Old 9th August 2018, 11:14 AM   #52
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Also to luchog and jimbob:

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
I think you are missing something . . . what percentage of black people have had a similar experience? How often do they experience it? Those are the relevant stats. I'd be willing to bet that virtually every black person in America has had some kind of personal negative experience with racism. If that's true, then it really doesn't matter if such incidents are relatively rare; that every Black American has experienced them is troubling enough.
Yes, I get that POC are subjected to regular discrimination. AFAICS, so does the entire forum, without exception. So: what are we talking about? They are not demonstrating frequency. Quite the opposite, IMO, based on a similar volume of videos of people getting struck by lightning. They are not showing anything unique or surprising. So what are they showing? Virtue signalling, AFAICS. They are becoming a joke, when the OP is a random ranter or a busybody calling the cops. One video that Mumbles had presented was really striking, about a man who was repeatedly arrested for working at a store...that is the kind of thread that is beneficial. These 'some jerk was a jerk to me' threads are pointless, and I think will make some readers take the issue of racism less seriously.
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Old 9th August 2018, 11:20 AM   #53
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Anecdotes illustrate data
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Old 9th August 2018, 11:23 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Anecdotes illustrate data
Exactly.

I'm trying to remember the last time I read an article about anything that didn't include an anecdote or two to give the data meaning. It shows what the data looks like to the people represented by the data. So long as the anecdote does not misrepresent the data it seems worthwhile.
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Old 9th August 2018, 11:27 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Also to luchog and jimbob:



Yes, I get that POC are subjected to regular discrimination. AFAICS, so does the entire forum, without exception. So: what are we talking about? They are not demonstrating frequency. Quite the opposite, IMO, based on a similar volume of videos of people getting struck by lightning. They are not showing anything unique or surprising. So what are they showing? Virtue signalling, AFAICS. They are becoming a joke, when the OP is a random ranter or a busybody calling the cops. One video that Mumbles had presented was really striking, about a man who was repeatedly arrested for working at a store...that is the kind of thread that is beneficial. These 'some jerk was a jerk to me' threads are pointless, and I think will make some readers take the issue of racism less seriously.
Why? Being arrested over a hundred times for trespassing at work really is the being struck by lighting level of racism. The being asked to leave for normal behavior, the being singled out for harassment and such, those are the constant everyday level racism.
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Old 9th August 2018, 11:38 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Also to luchog and jimbob:

Yes, I get that POC are subjected to regular discrimination. AFAICS, so does the entire forum, without exception.

Well, no, that's been demonstrably untrue given how long and stridently that level of racism has been denied here and elsewhere, dismissed as "not significant" as you frequently do with your "well, that's X number of incidents in Y number of people". You're constantly talking out both sides of your mouth, and are constantly minimizing the problem or playing up the "plausible deniability" dismissal. So your "I get that" rings rather false.

Quote:
So: what are we talking about? They are not demonstrating frequency. Quite the opposite, IMO, based on a similar volume of videos of people getting struck by lightning. They are not showing anything unique or surprising. So what are they showing?

As has been repeatedly stated, they are putting a human face on statistics, the illustrate the problem in a way that dry statistics, which are often ignored, do not.

Statistics point out the frequency of the issue. News reports such as these point out the nature of the problem. Simply saying "racism exists" isn't as useful if one does not show what it looks like.

The fact that you and others continue to dismiss these incidents as "random jerk,not really racism", and the posting of them as "virtual signaling", very effectively proves my point. No one is going to take racism less seriously because of posts like this unless they were already refusing to take racism seriously.

They are, in fact, demonstrating frequency, despite your denialist attempts to paint otherwise.

If you dislike these threads so much, why do you feel such a compelling need to read and post in them?
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Old 9th August 2018, 11:43 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Why? Being arrested over a hundred times for trespassing at work really is the being struck by lighting level of racism. The being asked to leave for normal behavior, the being singled out for harassment and such, those are the constant everyday level racism.
Yes. And that seems to be roundly agreed. But showing an incident that people of all colors experience kind of undermines that. Please, just try to consider what I am saying.
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Old 9th August 2018, 11:44 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
The guy seemed to equate the bike with the shooting. I'm wondering if she was wearing colors? Might explain his intensity
Why would you jump to that conclusion without any evidence?
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Old 9th August 2018, 11:44 AM   #59
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Nobody has ever called me the n-word
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Old 9th August 2018, 11:52 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
Why would you jump to that conclusion without any evidence?
Stellar pith for a While Black thread!
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Old 9th August 2018, 11:56 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Nobody has ever called me the n-word
I have been, by both blacks and whites, in anger and camaraderie. Am white, btw
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Old 9th August 2018, 12:15 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Yes. And that seems to be roundly agreed. But showing an incident that people of all colors experience kind of undermines that. Please, just try to consider what I am saying.
This is a thing, many people here do understand what you are saying, but see the obvious conclusion it leads to. That racism is easy to discount because similar indignities happen occasionally to everyone. So even if the cops provably target blacks disproportionately as no individual event can be shown to be specifically beyond the pale they can all be discounted.

You have done nothing to address the problem or suggest how to deal with it other than ignore it.
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Old 9th August 2018, 12:23 PM   #63
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This thread has turned into another "Who bleeds for the oppressed more than me" chingadera.
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Old 9th August 2018, 12:40 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
This thread has turned into another "Who bleeds for the oppressed more than me" chingadera.
With a healthy leavening of "who cares, everybody's oppressed."
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Old 9th August 2018, 12:51 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Well, I hope these advocates are exaggerating for effect, or forgetting to acknowledge that these LWB posts are really not very good examples.

I've said this many times on many threads, I think racism is much more insidious than these threads portray it as. If the OP is an example of it, it's not nearly as bad as I thought.
I realize that angry white people merely screaming n-words at black people may not be seem all that spectacular, especially when you're already willing the humor the defense that calling a black person the n-word isn't racist if you're mad enough at them.

But the fact of the matter is, most racism isn't spectacular. As ponderingturtle has already said, it's banal, boring gestures that usually don't come laced with n-words, but in the aggregate still have just as crushing an impact on their victims. The kinds of things that can't really be caught on camera because they don't LOOK like racism if you can't see the fact that the person or company or government agency doing them only does them, or does them far, far more often, to nonwhite people.

A white male, at some point in his life, has probably been told once or twice after asking that some restaurant's restrooms are for paying customers only. But he was never told that because he was white. He (in his case correctly) surmised that the people running the place are just anal like that. So when he watches the news and sees two black men complaining that when they asked for a restroom key they were told by a Starbucks manager that restrooms are for paying customers only, he immediately thinks of the similar situation from his history and says "we all get told that sometimes, it has nothing to do with racism" and he sticks to that interpetation, ignoring any new data comes along. When the black men point out that in the time before and after their incident white customers were entering the restaurant and being freely given the restroom key without having paid for anything yet, the white man who Knows Better decides they must be "exaggerating for effect". Real Racism, he lectures, is things like cross-burnings and Klan marches and black people being violently beaten by mobs. Not being allowed to use a restroom? GTFO with this piddling whiny victim mentality.

But no, real racism IS simply being told as a black person that you can't use the restroom without paying while white people standing in line behind you aren't told that. Real racism IS being a well-dressed black Manhattan lawyer out shopping with your daughter at a boutique and being accused of "possible shoplifting" because you were seen taking an item of clothing off the rack while browsing but didn't bring it to the register when it was time to check out, as if that isn't something almost every shopper does while shopping. Real racism IS being detoured by a traffic accident and stopping to check a map, and an angry white man suddenly coming up to you bellowing that "we don't need you bringing that [expletive] to our neighborhood!" even though you live four blocks away. Real racism IS being a black college-age student falling asleep while cramming in your dorm's common room surrounded by textbooks and college homework and a white girl literally calling 911 because "she doesn't look like she belongs here".

And racism lives in the responses to these incidents, too. Racism IS taking a video of a white man hollering racial slurs and white people watching it and saying "well that's not good but obviously the black person must've done something before the camera started rolling to make that white person do that". Racism is a black person being harassed and yelled at that "you don't belong in my neighborhood" by a white man who was subsequently arrested for ambling down the street hollering "[f-word] that [n-word]!" over and over, and white people reading about the incident and saying "well maybe he just really doesn't like motorcycles". Racism IS claiming on the one hand that one knows racism is "insidious and widespread and a serious problem", and on the other hand treating practically every individual incidence of racism as an extraordinary claim, even when accompanied by video evidence of a white person angrily shouting racial slurs.

That last kind is the most insidious kind of racism, I think, because the people who indulge it genuinely don't think they're doing a racist thing.
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Old 9th August 2018, 12:54 PM   #66
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Well said, Checkmite

Particularly

Quote:
But the fact of the matter is, most racism isn't spectacular. As ponderingturtle has already said, it's banal, boring gestures that usually don't come laced with n-words, but in the aggregate still have just as crushing an impact on their victims.
and
Quote:
And racism lives in the responses to these incidents, too. Racism IS taking a video of a white man hollering racial slurs and white people watching it and saying "well that's not good but obviously the black person must've done something before the camera started rolling to make that white person do that". Racism is a black person being harassed and yelled at that "you don't belong in my neighborhood" by a white man who was subsequently arrested for ambling down the street hollering "[f-word] that [n-word]!" over and over, and white people reading about the incident and saying "well maybe he just really doesn't like motorcycles". Racism IS claiming on the one hand that one knows racism is "insidious and widespread and a serious problem", and on the other hand treating practically every individual incidence of racism as an extraordinary claim, even when accompanied by video evidence of a white person angrily shouting racial slurs.

That last kind is the most insidious kind of racism, I think, because the people who indulge it genuinely don't think they're doing a racist thing.
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Old 9th August 2018, 01:49 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
But the fact of the matter is, most racism isn't spectacular. As ponderingturtle has already said, it's banal, boring gestures that usually don't come laced with n-words, but in the aggregate still have just as crushing an impact on their victims. The kinds of things that can't really be caught on camera because they don't LOOK like racism if you can't see the fact that the person or company or government agency doing them only does them, or does them far, far more often, to nonwhite people.

Very, very well said.

"It happens to white people too" entirely missed not only the point, but the reality, in that it happens to minority people orders of magnitude more often, and more consistently, than it does to white people.

Atomizing and hyperfocusing on single incidents is obfuscatory, one has to look at the larger patterns of incidents and behaviour to understand how it works.

Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
This thread has turned into another "Who bleeds for the oppressed more than me" chingadera.

And this is precisely the sort of cavalierly dismissive attitude that demonstrates the problem white people have with acknowledging cultural racism. It's only missing the "oppressive PC culture" and "white people are the true victims" to really express the attitudes of the mainstream.
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Old 9th August 2018, 07:20 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Stellar pith for a While Black thread!
That was not meant to be pithy, it was meant literally.

Why would you assume she was wearing colours (gang colours, I assume?) without any evidence of that? It makes no sense to me.
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Old 9th August 2018, 08:02 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
That last kind is the most insidious kind of racism, I think, because the people who indulge it genuinely don't think they're doing a racist thing.
I think what's behind it is an idea that being called a racist is such an awful, AWFUL, AWFUL thing that experienceing being called a racist must be way worse than experiencing racism itself.

From the point of view of a white person even thinking about another white person being labeled as racist is horrible. It means their career is ruined and all good people will shun them forever. They may as well be labeled as people who poop in drinking water and have incest with dead people.

You just can't do that to someone without being absolutely positively 110% sure, and you can never be that sure because we can't read minds and there is always some way you can look at it where if you make the right assumptions and squint your eyes exactly right you see it's not really racist, even if it really looks like it is to someone who hasn't thought it through enough or someone who's black. Because black people are biased about racism, obviously.
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Old 9th August 2018, 08:58 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
This is a thing, many people here do understand what you are saying, but see the obvious conclusion it leads to. That racism is easy to discount because similar indignities happen occasionally to everyone.
But here's the thing: no one is saying that. You and a few other posters have this weird thing going on where you read a word or two in a post and make up the rest. Neither I nor anyone else is discounting racism. I am saying these LWB posts are awful examples of it. That's it. The extrapolations from that are only in your mind.

Quote:
So even if the cops provably target blacks disproportionately as no individual event can be shown to be specifically beyond the pale they can all be discounted.
And who is saying they should be discounted? I am as appalled as anyone at the undeniable targeting of blacks by police. Where do you get off projecting these things onto posters who clearly do not endorse them? On a skeptical forum, you are claiming flipping clairvoyance, ignoring post content because you totally feeeeel what is really meant.

Quote:
You have done nothing to address the problem or suggest how to deal with it other than ignore it.
Quote one post where I suggest ignoring it. Just one.

Why do you lie? What benefit do you gain from condemning others by projecting your own twisted interpretations? I am presenting a slightly different view to add to the discussion. I would think that on a skeptics forum, it would at least be considered rationally. But instead, mindless twittersphere tribalism.

Why do you lie?
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Old 9th August 2018, 09:06 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
That was not meant to be pithy, it was meant literally.

Why would you assume she was wearing colours (gang colours, I assume?) without any evidence of that? It makes no sense to me.
I didn't assume that. I wondered if she was wearing club colors. The guy was repeating that the bike couldn't be in 'his' neighborhood, and kept referring to a recent shooting. Despite how clearly out of control he was, he didn't use racial slurs till after she left. The bike and the shooting were what he ranted about, so I wondered if there might be a plausible connection that might explain it.

You asked why I jumped to that conclusion. Wondering is not jumping to a conclusion. It's kind of like speculation.
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Old 10th August 2018, 12:52 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I didn't assume that. I wondered if she was wearing club colors. The guy was repeating that the bike couldn't be in 'his' neighborhood, and kept referring to a recent shooting. Despite how clearly out of control he was, he didn't use racial slurs till after she left. The bike and the shooting were what he ranted about, so I wondered if there might be a plausible connection that might explain it.
It's a reasonable line of inquiry, but it appears to be fruitless. A web search shows that Dorchester seems prone to shooting incidents actually, there have been several over the past couple of years; but only one of the incidents I was able to find involved motorcycles in any way, and it was a spree shooting last fall in which two motorcyclist bystanders were among the victims. There doesn't appear to be any recent event that would give this man any reasonable basis to connect these motorcylists with any recent shootings in that area by virtue of the fact that they are motorcyclists.
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Old 10th August 2018, 06:48 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Well, no, that's been demonstrably untrue given how long and stridently that level of racism has been denied here and elsewhere, dismissed as "not significant" as you frequently do with your "well, that's X number of incidents in Y number of people". You're constantly talking out both sides of your mouth, and are constantly minimizing the problem or playing up the "plausible deniability" dismissal. So your "I get that" rings rather false.
luchog, I know there is no point in responding, but I'll give it a shot.

You are lying to say that I am minimizing the problem. I have presented anecdotes of my own on these threads about subtle racism. My argument is that this meme of LWB are using terrible examples, and that is counterproductive. Busybodies calling cops is just not a way to put a face on racism. The argument of x cases out of y people was only to counter the claim that there are sooooo many of these threads as examples of daily racism. On a skeptical forum, is it unreasonable to note that these few standalone anecdotes are not significant? The problem is very real. These LWB threads are not representative of it's pervasiveness or magnitude.

Quote:
As has been repeatedly stated, they are putting a human face on statistics, the illustrate the problem in a way that dry statistics, which are often ignored, do not.

Statistics point out the frequency of the issue. News reports such as these point out the nature of the problem. Simply saying "racism exists" isn't as useful if one does not show what it looks like.
I don't think they do, if they are not representing the problem well. If the face of racism is a get-off-my-lawn neighbor, some rebranding would be beneficial.

Quote:
The fact that you and others continue to dismiss these incidents as "random jerk,not really racism", and the posting of them as "virtual signaling", very effectively proves my point. No one is going to take racism less seriously because of posts like this unless they were already refusing to take racism seriously.

They are, in fact, demonstrating frequency, despite your denialist attempts to paint otherwise.
Again, you are lying to claim I am denying them. I do not. Try to consider this without the psychic reading: I do not deny racism. I opine that some of these LWB threads are lousy examples, posted because they were caught on camera and kinda-sorta look like racism if you are not paying much attention. On a skeptical forum, I think some scrutinizm is healthy, would you agree?

Quote:
If you dislike these threads so much, why do you feel such a compelling need to read and post in them?
These are discussion fora. I have a slightly different opinion which may contribute. Being challenged helps me to develop my own critical thinking, which is a good thing. BTW, you are lying again to claim I dislike them. Crystal ball getting cloudy? Each of these threads has different elements to consider. Some I comment on, some not. Some I am in line with your tribal position, some not. Lie all you like about my 'compelling needs and dislikes'. My interest here is honest discussion.
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Old 10th August 2018, 07:56 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
I didn't assume that. I wondered if she was wearing club colors.

Just Asking Questions, got it.

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You are lying to say that I am minimizing the problem.

Nope, your own words say that you are either lying, or that you are extremely bad at communicating what you are trying to say. See below.

Quote:
I have presented anecdotes of my own on these threads about subtle racism. My argument is that this meme of LWB are using terrible examples, and that is counterproductive.

Except the truth is exactly the opposite of that. They are excellent examples because they show that racism is not just the overt, the violent, the loud and obnoxious. It's very often the subtle, the petty, the plausibly deniable. That is the racism that you have been consistently denying or minimizing with your "well, that's just a bad example and counterproductive" nonsense. They are there to show that there is a wider spectrum to racism than you an many others are willing to acknowledge.

Quote:
Busybodies calling cops is just not a way to put a face on racism. The argument of x cases out of y people was only to counter the claim that there are sooooo many of these threads as examples of daily racism. On a skeptical forum, is it unreasonable to note that these few standalone anecdotes are not significant? The problem is very real. These LWB threads are not representative of it's pervasiveness or magnitude.

And here is where you demonstrate my point. You're denying the reality that these threads are very much representative of the day-to-day experiences of black people and other minorities, and insisting that they're just as rare for them as they are for you, because why? Because no one is capturing every single moment of every single day for every single person? A complete impossibility.

You are dismissing them out of hand, claiming that because you may have experienced something similar once in your life, that these incidents that represent the everyday experiences of minorities all over the country. Atomization in order to engage plausible deniability. That isn't skepticism, that's denialism.

Quote:
I don't think they do, if they are not representing the problem well.

You're the only one here claiming that they're not representing the problem well, because you insist on ignoring context, you insist on "branding" them as isolated incidents rather than evidence of a deeper pattern. You insist on discounting the words of minorities when they try to explain that these are routine daily indignities, rather than the rare notable incidents they are for white people.

In every thread where the white person is not stepping out and holding a flag over their head announcing their racism by using racial slurs or similar, you fall back on the "well, there must have been something else going on to causd it" despite a complete failure to prevent evidence of that "something else going on" or "well, that happened to me so it can't be racism". Again, that's not skepticism, that's denialism.

As noted many times previously by myself an others, the purpose of the LWB threads isn't to say "this specific is a clear and obvious and undeniable incident of racism", but to illustrate a wider pattern of behaviour and experience that points up a deeper cultural racism. Racism isn't just the neo-Nazi handing out anti-semitic leaflets on the streetcorner, or the KKK rallies, or the old guy yelling about all the n-words and spic destroying his neighborhood, it's the snide responses to questions, it's the pseudo-compliment, it's the selective enforcing of rules, it's the making up rules that only apply to minorities, it's always assuming the worst about minorities vs. whites, it's myriad petty attempts at exclusion.

You don't see that because you don't want to see that, because it disrupts your chosen worldview. So rather than acknowledge the possible existence of the pattern, you insist on treating all incidents as isolated, occurring in a vacuum, and resorting to the same plausible deniability to avoid having to acknowledge and address the deeper issues.

Minority people have been complaining about this sort of subtle pervasive plausibly-deniable racism for decades, and been constantly told that they're imagining it, that they're making it up, that they're just being too sensitive and misinterpreting things. So when they finally start to provide evidence of what they've been talking about their entire lives, white people turn around and dismiss it all as insufficient evidence, and treat each incident captured as entirely non-representative of the minority experience. Again, not skepticism, denialism.

Quote:
If the face of racism is a get-off-my-lawn neighbor, some rebranding would be beneficial.

I have read this multiple times, and I cannot find any way in which this makes the slightest bit of sense. What does "branding" have to do with anything?
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Old 10th August 2018, 08:26 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
And here is where you demonstrate my point. You're denying the reality that these threads are very much representative of the day-to-day experiences of black people and other minorities, and insisting that they're just as rare for them as they are for you, because why? Because no one is capturing every single moment of every single day for every single person? A complete impossibility.
And these few videos that manage to go viral aren't intended to be some kind of exhaustive diary of every racist incident African-Americans face. Black people are not filming every single racist confrontation or incident that happens to them; they would have to leave a camera running for their entire waking lives in order to capture that. These are just a very few choice incidents. So the objection that in order for these videos to be at all meaningful it MUST mean that racism is uncommon because "I can find just as many videos of people getting struck by lightning" makes absolutely no sense.
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Old 10th August 2018, 08:41 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
And these few videos that manage to go viral aren't intended to be some kind of exhaustive diary of every racist incident African-Americans face. Black people are not filming every single racist confrontation or incident that happens to them; they would have to leave a camera running for their entire waking lives in order to capture that. These are just a very few choice incidents. So the objection that in order for these videos to be at all meaningful it MUST mean that racism is uncommon because "I can find just as many videos of people getting struck by lightning" makes absolutely no sense.
Please, just for a moment, consider rationally what I am trying to say.

You and others are conflating the larger issue of racism with the critical evaluation of the thread stories. They are separate issues.

In this OP, the guy is shown to be violently racist, but after the woman has left. While he was confronting her, he seemed more concerned about the bike and a recent shooting than her race. Would you agree?

Is it likely that he was a die hard racist, but that had nothing to do with the initial OP confrontation?

BTW, you have claimed that I deny new information to stick to a narrative. If you recall, I thanked you specifically when you linked additional info and acknowledged that it made it a very different story than the OPs version.
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Old 10th August 2018, 09:50 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
In this OP, the guy is shown to be violently racist, but after the woman has left. While he was confronting her, he seemed more concerned about the bike and a recent shooting than her race. Would you agree?
Actually, I would not agree; watching the video yet again, I can find no reason to believe he had a strong special objection to the motorcycles. Although the victim defends herself by insisting she can park wherever she wants, he himself doesn't seem to ever mention them specifically. He certainly does carry on about how he doesn't intend to let the victims "shoot him", that is true, and I think at one point he does briefly allude to a recent shooting in the area. More than anything else, however, what he most repeatedly and explicitly objects to is their presence in "his" neighborhood. Which leads us to the next question:

Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Is it likely that he was a die hard racist, but that had nothing to do with the initial OP confrontation?
Given what we know about what happened later, I would say not remotely likely.

As in every one of these cases in which the n-word isn't dropped until the very end - subtext is still a real thing that exists and is detectable. Although the man waited to begin using racial slurs until after the victim left and he knew he was no longer being recorded, and thus the victim herself never heard any of the racial slurs personally by the time she posted the video, she nevertheless correctly identified the racist subtext behind his harassment, and what we now know about the events that took place in the immediate aftermath of the confrontation corroborates her interpretation. She did not need to hear the n-word in order to accurately detect that the person confronting her was racist.

Don't forget, she actually does live in that general neighborhood too. She would know about any recent shootings just as much as he does, and she knows full well none of them had anything to do with motorcycles.

So no; I believe that his expressed concerns about shootings or (I'll even allow it) "motorcycles", were pretexts to justify the confrontation, but that in reality he just consciously went off on a "black intruder".

The weakest scenario I'm willing to agree is actually plausible given the totality of the facts, is that he was indeed primarily "concerned about getting shot" rather than consciously "confronting a black person", but that racism remains the driving factor since the only reason the man was "concerned about getting shot" is because there was a black stranger in his neighborhood.
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Old 10th August 2018, 10:15 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It's a reasonable line of inquiry, but it appears to be fruitless. A web search shows that Dorchester seems prone to shooting incidents actually, there have been several over the past couple of years; but only one of the incidents I was able to find involved motorcycles in any way, and it was a spree shooting last fall in which two motorcyclist bystanders were among the victims. There doesn't appear to be any recent event that would give this man any reasonable basis to connect these motorcylists with any recent shootings in that area by virtue of the fact that they are motorcyclists.
My immediate educated guess - the usual domestic disputes and gang violence, same as it's been for the past few decades.

(Since I grew up and still know people there, this one's *easy*. This dude's spouting the same Black Brute stereotype that people like this always are.)
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Old 10th August 2018, 10:26 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Is it likely that he was a die hard racist, but that had nothing to do with the initial OP confrontation?
Remote possibility? Sure.

Likely? No. Just no. You can't be serious. Do you think if the biker looked just like him, the confrontation would have happened?

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Old 10th August 2018, 01:06 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Mycroft View Post
I think what's behind it is an idea that being called a racist is such an awful, AWFUL, AWFUL thing that experienceing being called a racist must be way worse than experiencing racism itself.

From the point of view of a white person even thinking about another white person being labeled as racist is horrible. It means their career is ruined and all good people will shun them forever. They may as well be labeled as people who poop in drinking water and have incest with dead people.

You just can't do that to someone without being absolutely positively 110% sure, and you can never be that sure because we can't read minds and there is always some way you can look at it where if you make the right assumptions and squint your eyes exactly right you see it's not really racist, even if it really looks like it is to someone who hasn't thought it through enough or someone who's black. Because black people are biased about racism, obviously.

What is darkly amusing is that they keep doing this for people who are engaged in reprehensible actions regardless of whether that person is a racist or not.

'Don't call him racist, he's just a normal murderer!' 'That guy isn't a racist, he's just a horrible, aggressive *******!' 'That cashier is just abusing police reports to intimidate and possibly harm the customer's life, but not because they're racist!'

Oh, well that's...no problem then?
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