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Tags donald trump , fascism charges , Trump controversies

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Old 27th February 2021, 07:53 PM   #961
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Are you sure about that?

Far-Right - Check
Authoritarian - Check
Ultranationalism - America First? Check
Dictatorial power - Trump for life? Check
Forcible suppression of opposition - Voter suppression, would love to have a one-party rule? Check
Strong regimentation of society - Opposes anyone that is not white, Christian, and hetro. Check
Strong regimentation of the economy - Okay so they are missing this one, currently

Seems to me that if it quacks and floats, you might want to at least consider checking to see if its really a duck.
Those things are associated with nearly all forms of right wing authoritarianism. Though I would primarily describe them as nationalism rather than ultranationalist.

What it primarily lacks is the philosophy that only a complete mobilization by the state is a necessity to survival. Economic policy in fascism is to serve the state as a single entity..rather than the american far right view that economic policy is to promote the interests of white, christian individuals.

As to why I care....my politics are philosophical rather than realistic. In that sense, I have a closer bond to a deontological maoist than I do a Republican. When there is a politics that is meant to be philosophical, I'm going to argue that they don't get lumped in to the groups that don't think that way.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 27th February 2021 at 07:55 PM.
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Old 27th February 2021, 09:09 PM   #962
Aridas
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Originally Posted by PhantomWolf View Post
Are you sure about that?

Far-Right - Check
Authoritarian - Check
Ultranationalism - America First? Check
Dictatorial power - Trump for life? Check
Forcible suppression of opposition - Voter suppression, would love to have a one-party rule? Check
Strong regimentation of society - Opposes anyone that is not white, Christian, and hetro. Check
Strong regimentation of the economy - Okay so they are missing this one, currently

Seems to me that if it quacks and floats, you might want to at least consider checking to see if its really a duck.
Probably better to start with the 14 Early Warning Signs of Fascism, really. Your list is a little off. For example, Fascism isn't necessary solely a far right thing, given that fascist policy playbooks tend to involve policies plucked from across the political spectrum. The parts that make it actually bad are overwhelmingly far right, of course, but there's more to it than that, at last check.

Powerful and continuing nationalism - Check
Disdain for human rights - Check
Identification of enemies as a unifying cause - Check
Supremacy of the military - Probably not a check, but not really any better.
Rampant sexism - Check
Controlled mass media - Check. That's pretty much what all that "enemy of the people" crap was intended to help make happen, for example, along with the censorship, false narratives, attacks on facts in general, etc.
Obsession with national security - Conditional check. Whether the threat to national security is to be treated as such depends primarily on relationship to right-wing propaganda/narratives. Peaceful asylum seekers or protestors? Threat! Trump just giving away top secret information to hostile foreign powers and getting nothing for the country in return? Not a problem.
Religion and government intertwined - Check
Corporate power protected - Check
Labor [sic] power suppressed - Check
Disdain for intellectuals & the arts - Check
Obsession with crime & punishment - Conditional Check. Depends on right-wing propaganda narratives.
Rampant cronyism & corruption - Check
Fraudulent elections - Check



Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
He was never trying, but no.
You can justify that with technicalities, I suppose.
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Last edited by Aridas; 27th February 2021 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 27th February 2021, 09:39 PM   #963
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Even if they are using nazi symbols they are not fascists because they do not advocate fascism.
Yea, it's just one of those weird coincidences that keep popping up over and over again to the exact same people.
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Old 27th February 2021, 09:56 PM   #964
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Originally Posted by Aridas View Post
You can justify that with technicalities, I suppose.
Not an ice-cube's chance in hell!
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Old 27th February 2021, 09:58 PM   #965
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Yea, it's just one of those weird coincidences that keep popping up over and over again to the exact same people.

Indeed, no fascists openly advocate fascism, until they do, and then its too late - they're in power.
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Old 27th February 2021, 10:18 PM   #966
Aridas
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Indeed, no fascists openly advocate fascism, until they do, and then its too late - they're in power.
For better or worse, at last check, there are groups in the US that rather openly advocate fascism, but aren't really in power. The existence of the American Nazi Party, alone, though, would be enough to show the quoted to be inaccurate.

Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Not an ice-cube's chance in hell!
It's actually not that hard to find technicalities, at last check. Take this Vox article from last October, for example.

Is Trump a fascist? 8 experts weigh in.

Call him a kleptocrat, an oligarch, a xenophobe, a racist, even an authoritarian. But he doesn’t quite fit the definition of a fascist.


Some of the objections seem to have been shown to be in error with Trump's actions after he lost, including the events of 1/6, but there's a number of others. Either way, "wanna-be fascist but without having gathered enough power yet and trying to maintain plausible deniability, so didn't try for some of the things as directly" would likely be more descriptive of Trump's Administration during his term than actually fascist. If Trump had won a second term (while retaining a Congress rendered impotent by his loyalists), there's far too good of a chance that the gathering of power would have been sufficient to actually become openly fascist. He didn't, thankfully, and that remains a theoretical.
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Last edited by Aridas; 27th February 2021 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 28th February 2021, 05:53 AM   #967
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Originally Posted by trustbutverify View Post
Yea, it's just one of those weird coincidences that keep popping up over and over again to the exact same people.
Or, much like people here, they confuse outcome for philosophy and fail to achieve the end goal.
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Old 1st March 2021, 09:17 AM   #968
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
As someone said in that link... "This does not happen by accident. This had to be approved by a mess of people. They didn't just show up on event day and slap it together. If 'this' is an accident? Someone should be fired so hard it'll look like they were shot out of a cannon."

I doubt it was deliberate by the GOP, unless some individual on the design team did it off his own bat.

The highlighted looks a lot like weaselly "plausible deniability" excuses wrapped up in a nebulous target.

More to the point, who in the GOP owned and operated CPAC organization okayed the design? Somebody ... probably a committee of somebodies ... did. They didn't just toss an envelope full of money out the window with a note reading "PLease design a stage for our rally." and then wait until it was built to see what they got. It went through planning stages. There were sketches, design approval, etc., etc..

The idea that the design is just coincidentally similar to a specific Nazi insignia related to White Supremacy is beyond laughable. It took careful work for that image to be so perfectly reproduced, and it doesn't serve any useful function as a stage configuration. Quite the opposite. It makes the stage harder to use for its intended purpose.

Considering the make-up of CPAC organizers and the all-but-certain affiliations of many (most?) of them with right-wingnut groups it is beyond reasonable doubt that the figure was recognized. It took more than one person to achieve this.

Were they all 'punk'd' by some insidious leftist mole who was out to embarrass them?

I doubt it. For one thing, none of them seem particularly embarrassed. "Duh ... it was a coinkydink. Har, har, har." is the best, in fact only excuse they or their apologists can seem to come up with.
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Old 4th March 2021, 12:24 PM   #969
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The highlighted looks a lot like weaselly "plausible deniability" excuses wrapped up in a nebulous target.

More to the point, who in the GOP owned and operated CPAC organization okayed the design? Somebody ... probably a committee of somebodies ... did. They didn't just toss an envelope full of money out the window with a note reading "PLease design a stage for our rally." and then wait until it was built to see what they got. It went through planning stages. There were sketches, design approval, etc., etc..

The idea that the design is just coincidentally similar to a specific Nazi insignia related to White Supremacy is beyond laughable. It took careful work for that image to be so perfectly reproduced, and it doesn't serve any useful function as a stage configuration. Quite the opposite. It makes the stage harder to use for its intended purpose.

Considering the make-up of CPAC organizers and the all-but-certain affiliations of many (most?) of them with right-wingnut groups it is beyond reasonable doubt that the figure was recognized. It took more than one person to achieve this.

Were they all 'punk'd' by some insidious leftist mole who was out to embarrass them?

I doubt it. For one thing, none of them seem particularly embarrassed. "Duh ... it was a coinkydink. Har, har, har." is the best, in fact only excuse they or their apologists can seem to come up with.
Given some of the GOP prior efforts at "planning", the highlighted scenario wouldn't really surprise me if it were true. I can easily imagine a committee dropping the work in the lap of some design company without much oversight. Without the light colored detail in the middle of the square, the resemblance is much less, and that detail would have been added only near the end of construction. I could see it not being noticed by people that prefer reading pre-digested summaries to actually looking into details of anything.
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Old 4th March 2021, 01:17 PM   #970
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Were they all 'punk'd' by some insidious leftist mole who was out to embarrass them?
I've worked with a lot of graphic designers over the years. I've learned three things:

1. They will do any project that pays, preferably up front;
2. They will be late more often than not; and
3. They are often very funny people who like to slip in jokes.

I can see a designer giving this design as an option and then being shocked that it was chosen and approved.

I had a label designer who changed out his lorem ipsum to be rude jokes in latin about me. He thought it was funny that it took several reviews for anyone to notice that my name was in the lorem ipsum. I would not be surprised at all if there isn't some random easter egg in one of those projects still.
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Old 7th March 2021, 08:54 PM   #971
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Presumably they also want to keep working, in which case "never blame the client" is holy writ.

In fact, the more strenuously it is argued that the design firm is responsible for the odal rune, the more I'm inclined to append a silent "because we kept rejecting all the swastika asks."
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