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Old 19th May 2017, 09:18 AM   #241
TraneWreck
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The really hilarious line in the article is the following:

Quote:
Black undergraduates at Harvard have held similar graduation events in the past, but student organizers say the new ceremony is the first that's open to students across the university.
So, the unique thing about this specific ceremony is that it's MORE inclusive than those in the past.

Truly, this is something that must be stopped immediately.
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:25 AM   #242
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I wonder if my HBC/U graduation was considered "segregated" or "divisive"?
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:26 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
I wonder if my HBC/U graduation was considered "segregated" or "divisive"?
You didn't invite me, so the answer is obviously yes.
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:30 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Again, it was a private event. They invited other black students. Do you feel equal levels of outrage that black students weren't invited to other graduation parties?
Again, not outraged. But if invitation was based on skin color, then yes, I would feel that it was unnecessarily divisive.

Quote:
I mean, it's just baffling. No one told white students to f-off. They simply weren't invited. This may come as some shock, but lots of people aren't invited to lots of events.
Obviously. And if they are invited based on their race, perhaps a little different.

Quote:
I'm sure that friends and acquaintances of the students at the private ceremonies did attend.
For at least the third time, we are not taking about the audience members.


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Yes. They are confused, deluded, or ignorant.

It is laughably absurd that you would find this divisive.
IMO it is far more absurd that you refuse to see another POV, to the point of getting insulting.
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:31 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by marplots View Post
What is "concern trolling?"
Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
It's the act of pretending to offer advice when you're really just criticizing.
Thanks. I'll add that to my glossary.
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:35 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Again, not outraged. But if invitation was based on skin color, then yes, I would feel that it was unnecessarily divisive.

Obviously. And if they are invited based on their race, perhaps a little different.
See, this is the historical ignorance part.


Quote:
For at least the third time, we are not taking about the audience members.
This is highly relevant, though. You can try to dismiss it, but it's an important element. Many people recognize the specific historical difficulties preventing African Americans from succeeding in higher ed. A lot of white people both get the importance of taking a moment to recognize that achievement and attending to throw their support behind the effort.

This shows unity, the opposite of this divisive ******** you have latched on to.

Quote:
IMO it is far more absurd that you refuse to see another POV, to the point of getting insulting.
Oh, I see it. I grew up with it. Unlike the Washington Press Corps, I find very little interesting or compelling about typical dumbass ideas from white people.

There is a reason my first reply on this thread referenced the old stupid trope about BET. For the entire history of television, shows written by black people and focused on issues of relevance to the black community were barred and ignored with explicit rules and just plain old bias (with rare exception). BET comes along to provide a platform for people who were being denied access to other media outlets, and all of sudden BET is divisive.

Again, this is the historical ignorance. Time and time again you and others are making the mistake of conflating the response to segregation and divisiveness - celebrating black achievement - with the segregation and divisiveness that made those actions necessary.
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Old 19th May 2017, 09:37 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
The really hilarious line in the article is the following:



So, the unique thing about this specific ceremony is that it's MORE inclusive than those in the past.

Truly, this is something that must be stopped immediately.
That is good news, even the black segregationist is learning that division isn't right.
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Old 19th May 2017, 10:07 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
I get that feeling because a celebration which admits the participants on purely racial lines is racially divisive. I find this uncomfortable because I find it hard to believe that deliberately dividing people along racial lines, however well intentioned, is beneficial overall.
Is it specifically the dividing by racial lines that is an issue to you? I honestly struggle to find fault in this situation. Black students make up 5% of Harvard graduates. Dividing into that subgroup gives the opportunity to more thoroughly celebrate, emphasize, and describe the achievements and experiences of that group. It also gives them sufficient numbers to collaborate a shared celebration.

We see this happen with literally everything, from culture, religion, location, race etc etc etc all down the line. If the percentages allowed, we would see this 'black' subset disperse into other groups as well. Ghanaian, Kenyan, Nigerian, well, you get the point. Not to mention that I am sure these graduates will celebrate again in other subsets when they return home (family/church/school/community).

While there are other situations where division of this sort I disagree with, this case is just not a shining example to highlight those others.
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Old 19th May 2017, 10:19 AM   #249
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nvm
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Old 19th May 2017, 10:35 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
That's a rather superficial assessment of a complicated topic.

[..]
You quoted 1 sentence out of at least six that logger wrote in the cited post. I call that a superficial assessment of a complicated topic.

Wait. I only quoted one sentence of yours. I guess that's also a superficial assessment of a complicated topic.

Now you know how I feel, and perhaps logger too.
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Old 19th May 2017, 11:39 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
You quoted 1 sentence out of at least six that logger wrote in the cited post. I call that a superficial assessment of a complicated topic.

Wait. I only quoted one sentence of yours. I guess that's also a superficial assessment of a complicated topic.

Now you know how I feel, and perhaps logger too.
I always struggle with whether to quote whole sections, or just the thing I am immediately responding to. Lately, sometimes I quote the whole post, but highlight one part, so that the highlighted part has context.

The point of my response to logger, though, was not just that it was one sentence out of six. It was that logger had declared that something was "obvious". That's his basic approach to the whole topic. He seems to think he has identified a flaw in the liberal approach, and he states his opinion very concisely, with a minimum of elaboration.

Very good. We know his opinion. He has given us a few sentences of statement about it, and left no doubt of what he thinks. Other people, including me, have elaborated on the OP and the surrounding issues, but logger has basically stuck to a very easy to understand position, explained in very concise, but very superficial, terms.

You are right, though, that my response to him, this time, was quite superficial. I think that's appropriate. He isn't interested in providing a complex justification of his views. He does not appear interested in reading a complex response to his statements. There's no point in doing more.

Other people have elaborated, and engaged in a more in depth debate.
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Old 19th May 2017, 11:43 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
I did, in fact, answer your question. The answer is nothing. Do you need a rule or a law to (1) prevent private graduation parties and (2) mandate that everyone attend the general ceremony?

Not sure why you are talking about rules and laws. I'd settle for a broadly accepted social norm which prevents society (starting with leading elite institutions) from further splintering into groups based on personal identity and most especially circumstances at birth.

I doubt whether the very foundations of our civilization are at stake, but I'd rather my grandchildren grow up in a culture which values inclusion over identity.



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Old 19th May 2017, 11:50 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Not sure why you are talking about rules and laws. I'd settle for a broadly accepted social norm which prevents society (starting with leading elite institutions) from further splintering into groups based on personal identity and most especially circumstances at birth.
Then, once more, you have identified the wrong target for your attention. Black groups are unifying and engaging in acts of solidarity because they have been excluded, not to exclude.

Quote:
I doubt whether the very foundations of our civilization are at stake, but I'd rather my grandchildren grow up in a culture which values inclusion over identity.
Around and around we go.

The way to have a culture that values inclusion over identity is to allow access to all. American history is a story of the denial of access to various groups for various reasons, none so dramatic and consistent as the hurdles placed in front of African Americans.

The division, the lack of inclusion is what CAUSED black students to unify to celebrate their achievement. If special notice were not given, if the demand for inclusion were not made, then the power structure remains as it was - completely exclusive.
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Old 19th May 2017, 12:12 PM   #254
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Is this segregation acceptable

Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Then, once more, you have identified the wrong target for your attention.
Elsewhere on this very forum, I made various arguments against a white supremacist fraternity calling themselves Sigma Alpha Epsilon. Turns out this thread is on a different topic, though, and I'm not about to fall for your Dear Muslima gambit.

Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
The way to have a culture that values inclusion over identity is to allow access to all.
For example, a commencement ceremony where people of all genders and colors and sexual orientations share the stage together, basking in sense of common achievement.


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Old 19th May 2017, 12:37 PM   #255
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
Elsewhere on this very forum, I made various arguments against a white supremacist fraternity calling themselves Sigma Alpha Epsilon. Turns out this thread is on a different topic, though, and I'm not about to fall for your Dear Muslima gambit.
No, it's not a Dear Muslima. I'm not arguing that you should ignore a problem because a worse one exists; I'm arguing that you are focusing on something that is not a problem while ignoring the actual issue.

If you cared about inclusiveness you would focus on the forces that actually cause segregation instead of aimlessly bitching about people fighting to be included. You are obsessed with the victims while you ignore the source of the problem.

Quote:
For example, a commencement ceremony where people of all genders and colors and sexual orientations share the stage together, basking in sense of common achievement.
Like the general ceremony that these students will also attend?

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Old 19th May 2017, 12:45 PM   #256
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Like the general ceremony that these students will also attend?

I thought it was optional...?

Quote:
I'm arguing that you are focusing on something that is not a problem while ignoring the actual issue.
Much like Dawkins comparing unsolicited sexual comment to open-mouthed gum chewing, you are claiming that the problem being discussed here isn't really a problem worth discussing.

Quote:
You are obsessed with the victims while you ignore the source of the problem.
I am concerned that (re)segregation based on immutable traits will have socially deleterious consequences in the long term. Haven't said anything about specific victims, at least not in this thread.




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Old 19th May 2017, 12:54 PM   #257
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
I thought it was optional...?
You think it should be mandatory?


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Much like Dawkins comparing unsolicited sexual comment to open-mouthed gum chewing, you are claiming that the problem being discussed here isn't really a problem worth discussing.
No, I'm claiming it is not a problem, at all; it's a response to an actual problem aimed at overcoming it.

There is a good amount of evidence that strengthening solidarity within the population of black students enhances performance:

Quote:
Texas Tech created a program called Mentor Tech, which focuses on connecting students of color with faculty and local churches and community groups. “The mentors we match them with commit to assisting them with navigating the system, sharing the unwritten rules of culture, connecting them with resources, being that listening ear, being that caring arm, and sometimes being that voice of correction to help them bounce back from failure,” Cory Powell, the director of the program, told Education Trust. The graduation rate for black students on campus is 19 points higher at 56 percent than it was 10 years ago.
https://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...udents/475077/

This is connecting black students to black faculty and black community leaders.

This is a good review of the current state of things, Graduation rates are not improving for black students at 50% of the colleges that are experiencing overall increases in graduation rates:

https://edtrust.org/resource/risingtideii/

That is why it's specifically an accomplishment for black students to graduate.

Quote:
I am concerned that (re)segregation based on immutable traits will have socially deleterious consequences in the long term. Haven't said anything about specific victims, at least not in this thread.
No, you have. Over and over.

And once more, your concern is deeply misplaced. The "segregation" you are pointing to is a response to segregation that has been effective at improving the performance of black students at institutions that previously did segregate them.

You are way, way off. If you actually care about desegregation and inclusiveness, you should be celebrating efforts to improve performance of minority students enhancing their opportunities.
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Old 19th May 2017, 01:18 PM   #258
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Is this segregation acceptable

Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post


https://www.theatlantic.com/educatio...udents/475077/


[Mentor Tech] is connecting black students to black faculty and black community leaders.

No doubt they do that (among other things) but the article doesn't say anything about the program being as exclusionary as you seem to be saying here.

Judging by their web page I'd say they appear to be a reasonably diverse group:



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Old 19th May 2017, 01:21 PM   #259
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Originally Posted by d4m10n View Post
No doubt they do that (among other things) but the article doesn't say anything about the program being as exclusionary as you seem to be saying here.

From their web page:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...8f581bbc17.jpg
Let's see what a picture of the crowd at this graduation ceremony looks like. I bet it will look a lot like that.
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Old 19th May 2017, 01:25 PM   #260
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Let's see what a picture of the crowd at this graduation ceremony looks like. I bet it will look a lot like that.

Let's hope so.



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Old 20th May 2017, 07:14 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Right, but this is just a situation that doesn't compare.

With housing discrimination, specifically, the same government that passed those laws is still in existence and huge numbers of the people who were discriminated against are still alive.

If your grandparents couldn't buy a house and were forced to live in ghettos, that constrained the life choices of your parents. Your parents' constrained life choices affect the position where you start.
It does compare: if my ancestors didn't become destitute at Tours, maybe my grandfather would've had a castle to sell in France rather than being poor. The point is that at some point you have to go forward, not backward.
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Old 20th May 2017, 07:18 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
It's the act of pretending to offer advice when you're really just criticizing.

The most common use you will see is in politics, like Hannity saying, "If the Democrats really wanted to win elections, they'd do X.

Hannity doesn't want Democrats to win elections, so the concern is fake.
No, that's not concern trolling. At no point does Hannity pretend to care. He's just providing his (dumb) opinion.
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Old 20th May 2017, 07:22 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It does compare: if my ancestors didn't become destitute at Tours, maybe my grandfather would've had a castle to sell in France rather than being poor. The point is that at some point you have to go forward, not backward.
Right...like attending college - at Harvard, no less - despite the myriad issues making that difficult for African Americans today.
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Old 20th May 2017, 08:24 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Right...like attending college - at Harvard, no less - despite the myriad issues making that difficult for African Americans today.
Well I couldn't have gotten into Harvard, either. Damned Saracens!
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Old 20th May 2017, 09:26 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Right...like attending college - at Harvard, no less - despite the myriad issues making that difficult for African Americans today.
Yep.

I grew up in the 80s, in Boston. Back then, we were all told "By the time you're 25, you'll probably be in jail, or dead". Both myself, and multiple black friends, had Cambridge police just straight walk up and attack them, without reason. That sort of thing still happens - Even Henry Louis Gates got arrested without cause, a few years ago.

I think it's something that many people here don't get - they're discussing ancient history - no, it was just the other day.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 08:25 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Is it specifically the dividing by racial lines that is an issue to you? I honestly struggle to find fault in this situation. Black students make up 5% of Harvard graduates. Dividing into that subgroup gives the opportunity to more thoroughly celebrate, emphasize, and describe the achievements and experiences of that group. It also gives them sufficient numbers to collaborate a shared celebration.

We see this happen with literally everything, from culture, religion, location, race etc etc etc all down the line. If the percentages allowed, we would see this 'black' subset disperse into other groups as well. Ghanaian, Kenyan, Nigerian, well, you get the point. Not to mention that I am sure these graduates will celebrate again in other subsets when they return home (family/church/school/community).
Yes. In the area where I live, there is intense racial hatred, but it is black against white. I have been told to get my 'white ass' out of more than one establishment, yet I have never seen a black person treated this way. Dividing along racial lines has not, in my experience, been beneficial in any way, and I think the sooner we can move past it, the better.

Quote:
While there are other situations where division of this sort I disagree with, this case is just not a shining example to highlight those others.
Agreed. This one was presented, but does not represent the archetypal problem. But the more we reinforce that there are blacks and whites and that they are separate, I think that we encourage divisiveness, even if well-intentioned.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 12:45 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
Again, you will continue to make silly arguments as long as you persist in believing there is a symmetry between a group unifying to exclude and oppress and a group unifying to battle against exclusion and oppression.
Just in case some hadn't read that you ended the thread on page two.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 12:51 PM   #268
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As the court found in this case segregation is fine.

http://pilotonline.com/news/nation-w...50692484b.html

Just because the reason they wanted to separate the school districts was to keep the blacks out isn't unconstitutional.
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Old 22nd May 2017, 06:24 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
As the court found in this case segregation is fine.

http://pilotonline.com/news/nation-w...50692484b.html

Just because the reason they wanted to separate the school districts was to keep the blacks out isn't unconstitutional.
There's obvious issues to the ruling, but it's an improvement to John Roberts' "Ah, c'mon, do you really think republicans will try to suppress black voters" ruling, which was proven stupid by Texas immediately upon release.
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Old Yesterday, 06:49 PM   #270
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I like to add this to the thread, you can't make this stuff up. Here's what the segregationist seem to want.
https://heatst.com/culture-wars/u-ch...n-to-graduate/
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Old Yesterday, 06:54 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
I like to add this to the thread, you can't make this stuff up. Here's what the segregationist seem to want.
https://heatst.com/culture-wars/u-ch...n-to-graduate/
And on this point, I agree with you. It's insane. (Although the "diversity" requirement is pretty common these days. I didn't read the article, but the headline reminds me of a requirement that went in at the University of Michigan just after I left there. One "diversity" class.)
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Old Yesterday, 06:58 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by MostlyDead View Post
Yes. In the area where I live, there is intense racial hatred, but it is black against white. I have been told to get my 'white ass' out of more than one establishment, yet I have never seen a black person treated this way. Dividing along racial lines has not, in my experience, been beneficial in any way, and I think the sooner we can move past it, the better.



Agreed. This one was presented, but does not represent the archetypal problem. But the more we reinforce that there are blacks and whites and that they are separate, I think that we encourage divisiveness, even if well-intentioned.
I see the point of this. I wish these students wouldn't call it a "commencement", making it seem like there's a separate black graduation. A "graduation celebration" for black people would send a different, and more comfortable, message.

On the other hand, I don't know which is more divisive, holding the ceremony, or complaining about it.
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Old Yesterday, 07:08 PM   #273
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
And on this point, I agree with you. It's insane. (Although the "diversity" requirement is pretty common these days. I didn't read the article, but the headline reminds me of a requirement that went in at the University of Michigan just after I left there. One "diversity" class.)
Shazam!
You mean this isn't so superficial?
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Old Yesterday, 07:44 PM   #274
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Can we have a Jew-only graduation too?
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Old Yesterday, 07:46 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Can we have a Jew-only graduation too?
Sure the left seems to be all for it!
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Old Yesterday, 08:16 PM   #276
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Shazam!
You mean this isn't so superficial?
No, it's still superficial. I just happen to agree with it.
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Old Yesterday, 08:46 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by TraneWreck View Post
See, this is the historical ignorance part.
What "historical ignorance" are you taking about?
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Old Yesterday, 09:05 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by Tony View Post
What "historical ignorance" are you taking about?
Not my question, but it looks like he's justifying the segregation, like a chickens come home to roost argument. Or a they did it to us now we'll do it to them.
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Old Yesterday, 09:09 PM   #279
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Can we have a Jew-only graduation too?
Jew-only graduation Those evil Harvard Jews supports an evil oppressive ethnostate!!!1!

Now who's the segregationist, Hmm?? *struts around like he's done something impressive*.

A lot of people here have a serious bug up their asses when it comes to black people. That's one reason I don't trust these sorts of threads in general. There's no doubt that you'll find similar ceremonies at Hillel, various Brahmin groups and clubs, and so forth - as well as the usual group on sports teams, drunkards, and so forth. But let the black kids get together, and it's time to set your hair on fire for some of 'em - not meaning you, Herc.
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Old Yesterday, 09:13 PM   #280
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Originally Posted by Mumbles View Post
But let the black kids get together, and it's time to set your hair on fire for some of 'em - not meaning you, Herc.
So you're in favor of segregating? Shocking!
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