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Old Today, 05:41 AM   #2841
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
What, precisely, is the difference between you being brought back to life, and an exact duplicate who self identifies as Jabba?
I'll take that: there is no difference but there is a distinction. It's not the same entity, and there is no continuity of the process jabba calls "self". Of course, it's doubtful that there's continuity of self in the same body from moment to moment, and the "self" is a spectator, not an actor, in the show.
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Old Today, 06:00 AM   #2842
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The difference that Jabba claims exists is essentially what is required for what he's trying to prove.
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Old Today, 06:01 AM   #2843
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- What you can't seem to conceptualize is the difference between me being brought back to life and me not being brought back to life.
I can conceptualize that too. Under H the only way to bring you back to life is to reaninate your corpse, because under H, your body is you. There's no aspect of you that isn't your body.
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Old Today, 06:02 AM   #2844
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
The difference that Jabba claims exists is essentially what is required for what he's trying to prove.
Jabba using circular logic? Get out of here!
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Old Today, 06:39 AM   #2845
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- What you can't seem to conceptualize is the difference between me being brought back to life and me not being brought back to life.
Of course he can. We all can. It's a common trope in science fiction. It's a topic of extensive debate among philosophers--who have even developed a specialized vocabulary for such discussions.

Spending five years treading a path already well worn by others would be one thing. You've spent the past five years struggling to put one foot in front of the other and actually start the journey.
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Old Today, 06:41 AM   #2846
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Elric? I mean, that's if I remember the stories correctly.
Blood and souls for my Lord Arioch! (But Elric was the wielder of the sword, which was called Stormbringer.) (About time I re-read some of those novels.)
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Old Today, 06:56 AM   #2847
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Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
Your attempt to substitute 'reincarnation' for 'brought back to life' is leading you in a circle. Moreover, soul? Really? That would be an immaterial thing that doesn't exist under H. Where are you trying to go with this?
Sense of self, not soul. The sense of self would be reproduced in the clone, exactly reproduced in every detail. That's why I wrote:
Originally Posted by jsfisher View Post
If by "brought back to life" you mean the creation of an entity with your exact sense of self, then, yes, you would be brought back to life.
If you mean something else, than you aren't addressing P(E|H).
js,
- But, if there is such a thing as reincarnation, OOFLam is wrong...
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Old Today, 06:56 AM   #2848
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Blood and souls for my Lord Arioch! (But Elric was the wielder of the sword, which was called Stormbringer.) (About time I re-read some of those novels.)
Well, there's a reference I didn't expect.
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Old Today, 07:01 AM   #2849
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave,
- What you can't seem to conceptualize is the difference between me being brought back to life and me not being brought back to life.
Originally Posted by jond View Post
What, precisely, is the difference between you being brought back to life, and an exact duplicate who self identifies as Jabba?
jond,
- That is the point. I see (or, imagine) a difference. You guys don't.
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Old Today, 07:03 AM   #2850
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Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
The difference that Jabba claims exists is essentially what is required for what he's trying to prove.
- Yeah.
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Old Today, 07:04 AM   #2851
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
jond,
- That is the point. I see (or, imagine) a difference. You guys don't.
We know. Jond was asking you to explain what that difference is.
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Old Today, 07:07 AM   #2852
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
js,
- But, if there is such a thing as reincarnation, OOFLam is wrong...
Well, no.

Your imaginary OOFLAM, which you made up, is that there is Only One Finite Life At Most. That does not preclude reincarnation. All you are trying to do is inject a conceptual soul into everything to which it does not pertain. H has no souls.
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Old Today, 07:08 AM   #2853
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
js,
- But, if there is such a thing as reincarnation, OOFLam is wrong...
That would be one avenue to pursue in making a small step towards supporting your claims.

What scientifically sound repeatable evidence is that that supports reincarnation.

BTW are copies of apes, cats and dogs missing the same thing as human copies? Why or why not?
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Old Today, 07:14 AM   #2854
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Originally Posted by The Norseman View Post
Elric? I mean, that's if I remember the stories correctly.




Now you mention it, I thought he had claimed Catholicism on his blog(s), but I could be mis-remembering.




LOL That's true!

But thanks for the deeper explanation, as always!





Interesting. I don't know much about Catholicism, so I appreciate the insight here.

It really demonstrates that theists all claim they talk about the same 'god' or 'heaven' (or Bible even), or whatever, but they really all have a separate concept and belief structure that is unique to the person.

It's equivocation all the way down!
I was raised Catholic. Feel free to delve into my ancestral enormous burden of guilt.

Yeah, the RCC actually intentionally does that. Sins of the fathers and all malarkey. Personally, I bailed out around the time that I learned Santa was fake. But that is back in the seventies.
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Old Today, 07:15 AM   #2855
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
jond,
- That is the point. I see (or, imagine) a difference. You guys don't.
And? What importance do you think this has?
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Old Today, 07:31 AM   #2856
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Originally Posted by zooterkin View Post
Blood and souls for my Lord Arioch! (But Elric was the wielder of the sword, which was called Stormbringer.) (About time I re-read some of those novels.)
If you want to be pedantic about it, Stormbringer was one of a pair of swords both with the same attributes. The other lesser know was Mournblade.
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Old Today, 07:40 AM   #2857
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
js,
- But, if there is such a thing as reincarnation, OOFLam is wrong...
If 5 minus 18 be a positive number, then Mathematics is wrong.
If Nazi Germany were victorious in winning World War II, then History is wrong.
If ....

So, where do you expect to go with your statement?
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Old Today, 07:56 AM   #2858
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Jabba using circular logic? Get out of here!
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
js,
- But, if there is such a thing as reincarnation, OOFLam is wrong...

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Old Today, 07:58 AM   #2859
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Jabba using circular logic? Get out of here!
Originally Posted by Mojo View Post
The difference that Jabba claims exists is essentially what is required for what he's trying to prove.
Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah.

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Old Today, 08:02 AM   #2860
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
But, if there is such a thing as reincarnation, OOFLam is wrong...
True, but you haven't proven there is such a thing as reincarnation. And your goal is to prove immortality, not prove that one of the number of possible alternatives to immortality is wrong. You're so wrapped up in the gyrations of the proof that you've forgotten what it is you're trying to prove.

You've chosen to prove immortality by suggesting that one of its alternatives, materialism, is very unlikely. As part of the method you have selected, you must reckon P(E|H). And to do so, you must reckon it as if H were true. H does not include reincarnation. So you don't get to wave reincarnation around as your method for "disproving" H. This is a very basic error. No nuance or special ways of thinking required.
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Old Today, 08:02 AM   #2861
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
jond,
- That is the point. I see (or, imagine) a difference. You guys don't.

It doesn't matter. Whatever you believe, or imagine, H doesn't include souls, so the existence of souls cannot be used as a factor in calculating the likelihood of something under H.
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Old Today, 08:03 AM   #2862
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah.
So you agree that your reasoning is circular? I'll take your non-answer as agreement.
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Old Today, 08:14 AM   #2863
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
That is the point. I see (or, imagine) a difference. You guys don't.
We don't see your claimed difference. That's because it exists only in your imagination. It exists without any sort of evidence or attribute you can articulate. You even admitted there would be no discernible difference between the two copies.

So in your rush to continue insinuating that your critics are somehow laboring under limited thinking -- how rude! -- all you've done is express a fervent wish that there be some vague but crucial difference for which there is no evidence. That is nothing more than asking people to take your personal faith as proof of fact.

No.

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Old Today, 08:20 AM   #2864
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
jond,
- That is the point. I see (or, imagine) a difference. You guys don't.
I see a difference too, at first glance. But when I think about it more deeply, I realise that there really isn't one.
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Old Today, 08:23 AM   #2865
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
jond,
- That is the point. I see (or, imagine) a difference. You guys don't.
Which is fine but nothing to do with H. H is the thing you're meant to be reckoning right?
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Old Today, 08:42 AM   #2866
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Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan View Post
Which is fine but nothing to do with H. H is the thing you're meant to be reckoning right?
I gather he believes such a thing should exist under either H or ~H. E, the event H and ~H are supposed to variously explain, is the sense of self. Jabba appears to be arguing that this sense necessarily incorporates some element that creates a key difference between the naturally-produced organism and a hypothetical materially-perfect copy of it. By trying to attach that to E, he's trying to sneak his concept of a soul into the observation as something H would have to explain. ~H already explains it, so he thinks he has an advantage.

And of course it's the soul he's considering the missing element; he's said as much, and explained why he doesn't just say so up front: he's trying to conceal his begging of the question. This is likely why he can't or won't define this supposed missing element -- any description he came up with would allow his critics to confirm he's back-dooring the soul into the observation.

When Jabba says "You guys don't [see a difference]," that's equivocal and disingenuous. We know what he means, but we don't agree that E embodies any such element as Jabba is trying to foist onto it. Jabba's using his special skills to make it sound like if we don't accept his begged premise of a soul, we somehow lack erudition or insight. He's pulled this stunt before. It's one of his less noble tactics.
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Old Today, 08:56 AM   #2867
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
jond,
- That is the point. I see (or, imagine) a difference. You guys don't.
The only difference I see is that there would be two identical bodies. You have yet to demonstrate any other difference other than that you want there to be. Under H, there is no difference.
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Old Today, 09:07 AM   #2868
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Originally Posted by jond View Post
The only difference I see is that there would be two identical bodies. You have yet to demonstrate any other difference other than that you want there to be. Under H, there is no difference.
Save for spacetime coordinates, and those change all the time anyway.
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Old Today, 09:24 AM   #2869
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Save for spacetime coordinates, and those change all the time anyway.
Yes, and also nothing non-physical which he can add to H.
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Old Today, 09:27 AM   #2870
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Yeah.
Which means you can't include it in your mathematical formulation of H, you need to demonstrate it's existence. And you have utterly failed to do so.
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Old Today, 09:44 AM   #2871
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Save for spacetime coordinates, and those change all the time anyway.
HaHaHa. No. Co-ordinates have been done to death.

Jabba claims that "something" would be missing from any copy. Jabba has no clue what that is, only that it must perforce be missing.

Work that out if you will.
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Old Today, 10:20 AM   #2872
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
js,
- But, if there is such a thing as reincarnation, OOFLam is wrong...
Originally Posted by Waterman View Post
That would be one avenue to pursue in making a small step towards supporting your claims.

1)What scientifically sound repeatable evidence is that that supports reincarnation.

2)BTW are copies of apes, cats and dogs missing the same thing as human copies? Why or why not?
Waterman,
#1. It's all anecdotal, but there are real efforts to submit the anecdotes to objective science. Try this to get you started: http://www.jimbtucker.com/.
#2. I assume that they would be. I assume that they are conscious and have "selves." I assume that their selves would be less "focused" than ours.
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Old Today, 10:25 AM   #2873
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Waterman,
#1. It's all anecdotal, but there are real efforts to submit the anecdotes to objective science. Try this to get you started: http://www.jimbtucker.com/.
#2. I assume that they would be. I assume that they are conscious and have "selves." I assume that their selves would be less "focused" than ours.
LOL....."Proof of immortality"
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