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Old 12th August 2017, 09:54 AM   #1081
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
-- though, I still do believe it myself, do have some more ideas as to how to strengthen my case and do believe that a less skeptical audience would tend to "see what I mean."

Jabba, the audience here sees what you mean well enough to raise reasoned and detailed objections to your argument.

Objections that you have failed to address. You should start here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=3198
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Old 12th August 2017, 10:03 AM   #1082
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- How do you disagree so far?
How about you start making your case for your claims, and we'll tell you where we disagree. This game of only making claims and debating definitions, essentially arguing about where the starting line should be or exactly how the official should shoot the gun to begin the race, is not worth a score.
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Old 12th August 2017, 10:06 AM   #1083
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
jond,
- Yes it does. According to the materialist model, if someone reproduced my DNA after my death, the new life would look like me, but it wouldn't actually be me. I would not be brought back to life.
- The materialist model accepts that that "self" did exist, but would not return. Another self would take its place. Those two selves are not the same -- they are separate entities.
No, no, no.

First of all, they are not entities. They are processes.

Second, yes, the process in the original and the process in the copy are distinct, but that's not what you were discussing: the process and the body are not distinct. It's a nice bait-and-switch attempt, but it is far too transparent.
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Old 12th August 2017, 10:21 AM   #1084
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- OK.
- Another hypothetical: if I were able to solve the TSS problem, what more would I need to solve?
You would need to show how that had any connection what so ever with your immortality.

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Old 12th August 2017, 10:22 AM   #1085
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I wouldn't be brought back to life in the self produced by the replica DNA. That's the difference. And that is probably the best I can do in trying to communicate what I perceive to be the difference.
The "best you can do" to explain the difference is just to state "there's a difference" over and over without expanding, explaining, or supporting.

"The difference is there is a difference" is just another way of wording "I'm right if you assume I'm right."
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Old 12th August 2017, 04:50 PM   #1086
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
jond,
- Yes it does. According to the materialist model, if someone reproduced my DNA after my death, the new life would look like me, but it wouldn't actually be me. I would not be brought back to life.
- The materialist model accepts that that "self" did exist, but would not return. Another self would take its place. Those two selves are not the same -- they are separate entities.
The two "selves" are not entities, they are processes arising from a functioning brain and body.

If you run a computer program and get a certain result (words, graphs, music, flashing lights, whatever), then run the same computer program again an hour later on the same computer (or an identical computer) you will get the same results. The results are separate but identical.

Is a new entity created each time the program runs? No. Is there anything special or surprising in that the second time the program runs it produces the same result? No. Does anyone think either instance of the result is special simply because it is a different instance? No.

Likewise, in the materialist world, your "self" is an emergent property, a process, that comes from your physical body and experiences. It is no more special than that.
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Old 12th August 2017, 05:57 PM   #1087
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Jabba a half dozen people have spent a half decade explaining all of this to you and you haven't given us the base courtesy of acting as if you are listening.

You have a match. You light it. You use this this match to light a second match. You then blow out the first match.

Which one is the "real" fire? Which one is the "first" fire.

How many "Going 60 miles per hour" are there? If I drive 60 miles per hour today and do it again tomorrow is it a new "Going 60 miles per hour?"

Or any of the questions valid? Do any of them matter? Do any of them even make sense? Of course not.

THIS HAS ALL BEEN EXPLAINED TO YOU!

I have zero faith that you will acknowledge this in the slightest.
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Old 13th August 2017, 03:28 AM   #1088
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
jond,
- Yes it does. According to the materialist model, if someone reproduced my DNA after my death, the new life would look like me, but it wouldn't actually be me. I would not be brought back to life.
Indeed. (And, as aside, it would only probably look like you, and would be unlikely to be identical to you. Remember that so-called identical twins have the same DNA, but are not, in fact, identical.)
Quote:
- The materialist model accepts that that "self" did exist, but would not return. Another self would take its place. Those two selves are not the same -- they are separate entities.
Equivocation ahoy!

The materialist model (AKA 'reality') has no place for the meaning of 'self' you keep trying to crowbar into it, to wit, 'soul'. The "sense of self" that is a feature of human consciousness is an emergent property of the brain.
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:26 PM   #1089
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Jabba, you seem to be assuming that if there are two selves there must necessarily be a difference between them. Can you explain why you are assuming that?
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:39 PM   #1090
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Jabba, you seem to be assuming that if there are two selves there must necessarily be a difference between them. Can you explain why you are assuming that?
This ought to be good, even if five years old and recycled.
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Old 13th August 2017, 12:43 PM   #1091
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Originally Posted by JoeBentley View Post
Jabba a half dozen people have spent a half decade explaining all of this to you and you haven't given us the base courtesy of acting as if you are listening.
You know, when you put it like that rather than just saying "five years" it's even more ridiculous. You can get a PhD in less time.
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Old 13th August 2017, 02:23 PM   #1092
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Jabba, you seem to be assuming that if there are two selves there must necessarily be a difference between them. Can you explain why you are assuming that?
- I'll try.
- Reincarnationists think that their selves come back to life. They think that whatever it is that they mean by "self" will be the same in the next lifetime.
- Materialists have the same experience that reincarnationists call the self, but materialists do not think that it will come back. Materialists believe that even if we produced a perfect copy of a particular brain, the copy would not produce the same self...
- According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would be different in whatever respect that is.
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Old 13th August 2017, 02:29 PM   #1093
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'll try.
- Reincarnationists think that their selves come back to life. They think that whatever it is that they mean by "self" will be the same in the next lifetime.
- Materialists have the same experience that reincarnationists call the self, but materialists do not think that it will come back. Materialists believe that even if we produced a perfect copy of a particular brain, the copy would not produce the same self...
- According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would be different in whatever respect that is.
There would be two identical brains and thus two identical selves. I'm trying to figure out what difference you think they would have. I don't think they would be different in any respect.
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Old 13th August 2017, 02:36 PM   #1094
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
There would be two identical brains and thus two identical selves. I'm trying to figure out what difference you think they would have. I don't think they would be different in any respect.
As has been pointed out many times, the only difference would be their spacetime coordinates. Jabba seems to be unable to grasp that two things can be identical without being the same thing.
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Old 13th August 2017, 02:53 PM   #1095
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'll try.
- Reincarnationists think that their selves come back to life. They think that whatever it is that they mean by "self" will be the same in the next lifetime.
- Materialists have the same experience that reincarnationists call the self, but materialists do not think that it will come back. Materialists believe that even if we produced a perfect copy of a particular brain, the copy would not produce the same self...
- According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would be different in whatever respect that is.
You're leaving out the fact that, under H, the mind and the body are one and the same. The mind is not a separate entire. You have two identical but separate bodies, that's all.
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Old 13th August 2017, 02:55 PM   #1096
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You know, when you put it like that rather than just saying "five years" it's even more ridiculous. You can get a PhD in less time.
It's.... surreal. This isn't like watching paint dry, it's like just watching paint.

Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- Reincarnationists think that their selves come back to life. They think that whatever it is that they mean by "self" will be the same in the next lifetime.
And as has been explained to you a thousand times what people "think" and what you "claim" doesn't mean diddly squat if you can't back it up with evidence or at the very, very least discuss it on a level beyond "I say it is so."


Quote:
Materialists have the same experience that reincarnationists call the self, but materialists do not think that it will come back. Materialists believe that even if we produced a perfect copy of a particular brain, the copy would not produce the same self.
Jabba do you understand that "materialist" isn't just slur you can drop at anyone who disagrees with you.

Every time a Woo Slinger tries to treat "materialist" a dirty word all I can hear is someone trying badly to make "Accepts reality" into a bad thing.

Quote:
According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would be different in whatever respect that is.
Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
As has been pointed out many times, the only difference would be their spacetime coordinates. Jabba seems to be unable to grasp that two things can be identical without being the same thing.
And this has gotten beyond ridiculous in trying to explain to him.

Jabba an infant understands the difference between "identical" and "the same." I'm done trying to explain the difference to a grown man.
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Old 13th August 2017, 03:27 PM   #1097
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
As has been pointed out many times, the only difference would be their spacetime coordinates. Jabba seems to be unable to grasp that two things can be identical without being the same thing.
Even more confusing, he does seem to be able to grasp it as long as the things in question aren't selves.
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Old 13th August 2017, 03:29 PM   #1098
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would be different in whatever respect that is.
No, we say they would be separate. Like 2 orange crayons, one on the desk here, one in the drawer there. Otherwise Identical. Just separate, because, there are two of them.
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Old 13th August 2017, 04:00 PM   #1099
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Even more confusing, he does seem to be able to grasp it as long as the things in question aren't selves.
And his reason that "selves" aren't the same is just a pleading "But they wouldn't be the same."

Probably whenever Jabba gets around to writing this "roadmap" for the "neutral audience" it's all gonna be about how the big mean closed minded skeptics couldn't explain how two sets of selves would be different but conveniently leave out why they are different so the narrative is that Jabba wins.
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Old 13th August 2017, 04:39 PM   #1100
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'll try.
- Reincarnationists think that their selves come back to life. They think that whatever it is that they mean by "self" will be the same in the next lifetime.
- Materialists have the same experience that reincarnationists call the self, but materialists do not think that it will come back. Materialists believe that even if we produced a perfect copy of a particular brain, the copy would not produce the same self...
- According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would be different in whatever respect that is.
Jabba, this has been explained to you at least a hundred times. Every dullard on Earth (except the single obvious exception) would understand by now.
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Old 13th August 2017, 11:56 PM   #1101
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Bears repeating.
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Old 14th August 2017, 12:08 AM   #1102
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would be different in whatever respect that is.

Jabba, you have been told that this isn't the case enough times to make your statement of it here a lie.
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Old 14th August 2017, 12:23 AM   #1103
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Lies for Jesus, though. The same as lies, but different in whatever respect that is*.



*I felt dirty typing that jabbarish**

** the same as "gibberish," but different in wha.... you get the idea
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Old 14th August 2017, 12:23 AM   #1104
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Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
Even more confusing, he does seem to be able to grasp it as long as the things in question aren't selves.
He's stuck on his feeling that the thing that is currently in his head calling itself "I" would not be the same thing as the thing that would be calling itself "I" in the head of a future duplicate. His mistake is thinking of either as a "thing" which can be "in" a head.
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Old 14th August 2017, 01:52 AM   #1105
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Originally Posted by MetalPig View Post

That is just ... just ...

Argh.
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Old 14th August 2017, 05:15 AM   #1106
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'll try.
- Reincarnationists think that their selves come back to life. They think that whatever it is that they mean by "self" will be the same in the next lifetime.
- Materialists have the same experience that reincarnationists call the self, but materialists do not think that it will come back. Materialists believe that even if we produced a perfect copy of a particular brain, the copy would not produce the same self...
- According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would be different in whatever respect that is.
No, 'materialists' don't think that. We keep explaining to you that this is your strawman, and after all this time I really don't understand why you keep misrepresenting the materialist position.

In your words, corrected:

- Materialists have the same experience that reincarnationists call the self, but materialists do not think that it will come back. Materialists believe that even if we produced a perfect copy of a particular brain, the copy would not produce the same self...
- According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would not be different in whatever respect that is.


Next time you want to represent the materialist position, please make the above corrections.
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Old 14th August 2017, 05:37 AM   #1107
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
- I'll try.
- Reincarnationists think that their selves come back to life. They think that whatever it is that they mean by "self" will be the same in the next lifetime.
- Materialists have the same experience that reincarnationists call the self, but materialists do not think that it will come back. Materialists believe that even if we produced a perfect copy of a particular brain, the copy would not produce the same self...
- According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would be different in whatever respect that is.
Originally Posted by godless dave View Post
There would be two identical brains and thus two identical selves. I'm trying to figure out what difference you think they would have. I don't think they would be different in any respect.
Originally Posted by Agatha View Post
No, 'materialists' don't think that. We keep explaining to you that this is your strawman, and after all this time I really don't understand why you keep misrepresenting the materialist position.

In your words, corrected:

- Materialists have the same experience that reincarnationists call the self, but materialists do not think that it will come back. Materialists believe that even if we produced a perfect copy of a particular brain, the copy would not produce the same self...
- According to materialists, the selves produced by the two brains would not be different in whatever respect that is.


Next time you want to represent the materialist position, please make the above corrections.
Dave and Agatha,
- Do you guys agree with each other? Would the identical self be the same self?
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Old 14th August 2017, 05:41 AM   #1108
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave and Agatha,
- Do you guys agree with each other? Would the identical self be the same self?
Really, Jabba? This again?
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Old 14th August 2017, 05:41 AM   #1109
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Identical but separate. I have said this many times.
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Old 14th August 2017, 05:44 AM   #1110
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave and Agatha,
- Do you guys agree with each other? Would the identical self be the same self?
Would the identical body be the same body?

Would the identical head be the same head?

Would the identical brain be the same brain?

The answer is the same for selves as it is for the above three, for the same reasons.
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Old 14th August 2017, 05:52 AM   #1111
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Originally Posted by MetalPig View Post
Well, played, sir.
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Old 14th August 2017, 05:53 AM   #1112
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave and Agatha,
- Do you guys agree with each other? Would the identical self be the same self?
Stop playing the "do you agree" game. You've been asked to support your claims. Stop defining them. Stop re-stating them. Stop looking for agreements and materials for your map. Just support your damned claims.
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Old 14th August 2017, 06:16 AM   #1113
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave and Agatha,
- Do you guys agree with each other? Would the identical self be the same self?

Nobody agrees with that. They just agree that identical people would each think they are the one, true original.

"Selves" as you use it is meaningless, the self constantly changes in intelligence, abilities, loves, tastes, hunger, environmental factors, etc. It is not a thing, it is a process.
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Old 14th August 2017, 06:26 AM   #1114
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Originally Posted by Jabba View Post
Dave and Agatha,
- Do you guys agree with each other? Would the [u]identical[/u] self be the [u][u][u]same[/u][/u][/u] self?
Jabba,

- Do you agree that the sense of self is a process rather than a thing separate from the organism?
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Old 14th August 2017, 06:26 AM   #1115
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Originally Posted by Pixel42 View Post
As has been pointed out many times, the only difference would be their spacetime coordinates. Jabba seems to be unable to grasp that two things can be identical without being the same thing.
Oh, I think he knows. But he must pretend that when we say they will not be the same, we mean that they are different. ALL of Jabba's arguments are built around little deceptions like that.

Hans
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Old 14th August 2017, 06:26 AM   #1116
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would the identical orange crayon on the table be the 'same' orange crayon in the desk drawer?
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Old 14th August 2017, 06:30 AM   #1117
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Oh, I think he knows. But he must pretend that when we say they will not be the same, we mean that they are different. ALL of Jabba's arguments are built around little deceptions like that.

Hans
So he wants us to be the befuddled old man?
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Old 14th August 2017, 06:53 AM   #1118
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So he wants us to be the befuddled old man?
Or perhaps is projecting. There is no amount of befuddlement which can excuse this abject nonsense idea.

Or at least very few, and I will not raise those.
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Old 14th August 2017, 07:03 AM   #1119
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
So he wants us to be the befuddled old man?
Misery loves company, to coin a phrase.

But hey, I'm Jabba's age. I volunteer for BOM.

-So Jabbo, do you agree that Metal Pig's bears (8 or 10 of 'em? right? or do they stand in for infinity?) are all the same except they don't have something you had when you were 14?

-?

-But do I agree that virtually proving stuff is the same as climbing Ranier?

-I'm slow, you're slow, we're ALL slow.

-Wait, that's a big city in Norway. Never mind.-

-Will I be back? -Or front?

-
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Old 14th August 2017, 07:07 AM   #1120
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Originally Posted by sackett View Post
Misery loves company, to coin a phrase.

But hey, I'm Jabba's age. I volunteer for BOM.

-So Jabbo <snip>
Nice start.
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