ISF Logo   IS Forum
Forum Index Register Members List Events Mark Forums Read Help

Go Back   International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories
 


Welcome to the International Skeptics Forum, where we discuss skepticism, critical thinking, the paranormal and science in a friendly but lively way. You are currently viewing the forum as a guest, which means you are missing out on discussing matters that are of interest to you. Please consider registering so you can gain full use of the forum features and interact with other Members. Registration is simple, fast and free! Click here to register today.
Reply
Old 12th October 2016, 07:58 AM   #241
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,092
Originally Posted by ceptimus View Post
The competitor personal JetPack JB10, which only uses two jet turbines rather than four (or six counting the two small auxiliaries) was also demonstrated at Monaco this month.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.
I AGREE
I have a video in production about that.

I'm sure you will enjoy it.

Last edited by esspee; 12th October 2016 at 08:03 AM.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 08:16 AM   #242
Macgyver1968
Philosopher
 
Macgyver1968's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 5,164
That looks like, at least to me, to be a better, more stable design. Rather than having the jets under your feet, and the balance of the rider coming into play....it's strapped to your back so rider balance doesn't affect it much, and would probably be a lot easier to fly.
__________________
"Fixin' crap that ain't broke."
Macgyver1968 is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 10:11 AM   #243
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,973
Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
That looks like, at least to me, to be a better, more stable design. Rather than having the jets under your feet, and the balance of the rider coming into play....it's strapped to your back so rider balance doesn't affect it much, and would probably be a lot easier to fly.
That was the premise behind Bell's original rocket pack.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 10:15 AM   #244
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,973
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
Just more weirdness as per usual.
No, just more stuff that doesn't meet your ad hoc subjective expectations. You have the burden to show your expectations are reasonable in light of the conclusion you wish draw. That last bit is important. It's not enough to show that your expectations are not unreasonable. You have to show that your expectations are such a foregone conclusion that it compels us to consider such a sensational hypothesis as fraud as the more probable explanation. "They aren't publicizing this the way I would" is not sufficient.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 12:00 PM   #245
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,450
Originally Posted by Macgyver1968 View Post
That looks like, at least to me, to be a better, more stable design. Rather than having the jets under your feet, and the balance of the rider coming into play....it's strapped to your back so rider balance doesn't affect it much, and would probably be a lot easier to fly.
I have two problems with it if is using RC turbines.

1. Only two motors. The highest thrust RC turbine on the market at the moment is the AMT Nike 800N, (80 kg thrust), If either of the engines fail, you lose 50% of your thrust. There will not be enough thrust to keep you airborne. At any decent altitude over land you will likely be toast. The Flyboard Air has four engines and if one fails you lose only 25% of your thrust. It will happily fly on three.

2. #1 above might be moot because having the two engines so far off the centre axis means that engine failure will lead to severe asymmetric thrust... it will flip you over like a coin. You will almost certainly be toast. Flyboard Air has its four engines in a bunch, so losing one doesn't cause this problem. The Bell jetpack got around this problem by using a centrally mounted engine with a split exhaust, but it has only one engine....nuff said!

While having the engines mounted higher might seem to be intuitively more stable than having them under your feet, it is simply not true. This is known as the "pendulum rocket fallacy", the assumption that a top mounted engine would be more stable than a bottom mounted engine because the body of the rocket would hang under it like a pendulum. In fact, there is no difference in stability, or lack of.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum_rocket_fallacy
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 12:21 PM   #246
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,973
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In fact, there is no difference in stability, or lack of.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pendulum_rocket_fallacy
No. The Bell design is explicitly a "pendulum" rocket -- up to a point. The rocket nozzles articulate via a ball joint with the chassis at the operator's shoulder level, meaning they are decoupled from the operator in a way that makes him a true pendulum in the design. That's how Bell achieved the passive stability, and it's the same way the LLRV and LLTV achieved passive stability via the gimbaled jet engine.

You are correct in most respects, however, about the likely effects of the loss of one engine. In the Bell design there was one reactor that fed two nozzles, so not a likely problem.

Last edited by JayUtah; 12th October 2016 at 12:57 PM.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 02:55 PM   #247
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,450
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
No. The Bell design is explicitly a "pendulum" rocket -- up to a point. The rocket nozzles articulate via a ball joint with the chassis at the operator's shoulder level, meaning they are decoupled from the operator in a way that makes him a true pendulum in the design. That's how Bell achieved the passive stability, and it's the same way the LLRV and LLTV achieved passive stability via the gimbaled jet engine.
Oh right Jay. Not the same Bell jet pack that was used at the opening of the 1984 LA Olympics.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 03:26 PM   #248
RussDill
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Charleston
Posts: 5,399
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
The party happened.

i followed it up in detail on facebook. However no mention appeared on their facebook page of the flying hoverboard. No photo of it. This video only appeared recently, although one small clip seen in this video appeared in a september video.

Even with the link you gave me, they still don't have still photos up of it from the day on their facebook. Photos of everything but it.

Still photos (that are not screengrabs of videos) are rarer than hens teeth of the Flyboard air.

To summarize - the event happened, but no record of it outside of the videos existed online until around September, and now in early October. (That i could find - or that any of my fans and supporters on this page could find)

The only mention of it was on Zapata Racing website, no where else on google, and even that page about it on Zapata Racing got swiftly removed. It was up for a very short time - why did it vanish?

Just more weirdness as per usual.

I already provided video from the day after the event. Heck one of the videos of the post you are replying to is from well before September. I even provided media mention. You'd like to forget all that now? But lets gloss over that. Lets say you are right, video didn't come out until September. Please be clear in what you are suggesting. You are suggesting that a) The party happened. And b) ...? There was no flyboard air? Everyone at the party has kept their mouth shut about flyboard air not actually being there?
__________________
The woods are lovely, dark and deep
but i have promises to keep
and lines to code before I sleep
And lines to code before I sleep
RussDill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 03:28 PM   #249
RussDill
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Charleston
Posts: 5,399
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
I have a video in production about that.

I'm sure you will enjoy it.
Sorry, after spending my time on the facebook live video and providing a thorough response without so much as a thank you or acknowledgement, and even worse, a repeating of the same claims later on, I'm not going to be spending my time on your videos.
__________________
The woods are lovely, dark and deep
but i have promises to keep
and lines to code before I sleep
And lines to code before I sleep
RussDill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 03:32 PM   #250
RussDill
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Charleston
Posts: 5,399
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
The Bell jetpack got around this problem by using a centrally mounted engine with a split exhaust, but it has only one engine....nuff said![/url]
Ah, but a design with 1 engine is much safer than a design with 2 engines if a single engine failure will lead to a fatal crash in either design (assuming similar reliability)
__________________
The woods are lovely, dark and deep
but i have promises to keep
and lines to code before I sleep
And lines to code before I sleep
RussDill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 04:22 PM   #251
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,092
Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
I already provided video from the day after the event. Heck one of the videos of the post you are replying to is from well before September. I even provided media mention. You'd like to forget all that now? But lets gloss over that. Lets say you are right, video didn't come out until September. Please be clear in what you are suggesting. You are suggesting that a) The party happened. And b) ...? There was no flyboard air? Everyone at the party has kept their mouth shut about flyboard air not actually being there?
the NEW footage did not come out until september. No footage FROM SUNSET on SUNSETS facebook page appeared until september. Nor any mention of the event ON THEIR PAGE. This recent, high def good quality footage from a decent angle basically only appeared in OCtober - with a short clip of it appearing in september ( to teh best of my knowledge)

Sorry if I did not make that crystal for you. I just assumed we were on the same page.

Yes I am aware of the video taken after the event - we all talked about it on this thread months ago, in detail.
I am not saying VIDEO did not come out. You are mistaking my words - or I am not communicating well - or both.
It happens.



and yes A - the party clearly happened
and B- why no mention of (the Flyboard AIr demo) on SUNSET facebook page until recently? ( long after the event). Also why no mention online of it leadding up to of after the demo? Exception being Frankies page which deleted the article super quick.

p.s
"I even provided media mention."
Which mention? - remind me please.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 04:25 PM   #252
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,092
Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
Sorry, after spending my time on the facebook live video and providing a thorough response without so much as a thank you or acknowledgement, and even worse, a repeating of the same claims later on, I'm not going to be spending my time on your videos.
I appreciate all of your posts and you have been really helpful
Sorry if i did not make that clear.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 05:16 PM   #253
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,973
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
Oh right Jay. Not the same Bell jet pack that was used at the opening of the 1984 LA Olympics.
Perhaps, I don't immediately have any details on the version that flew in 1984. The 1966 Bell patent clearly describes the articulation between the pilot restraint and fuel-tank assembly, and the thrust assembly. When I said it was a pendulum rocket "up to a point," I was referring to the limits of the ball joint, which I don't believe would be enough to recover from asymmetric thrust and which (I believe) do not entirely prevent the pilot from controlling his flight shifting his center of gravity. However, you get much passive stability from even a limited articulation. Without that, as you are well aware, non-centerline thrust would constantly apply its moment, without respect to the vehicle's orientation.

Last edited by JayUtah; 12th October 2016 at 05:19 PM.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 05:50 PM   #254
Trebuchet
Penultimate Amazing
 
Trebuchet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: The Great Northwet
Posts: 13,327
Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
Ah, but a design with 1 engine is much safer than a design with 2 engines if a single engine failure will lead to a fatal crash in either design (assuming similar reliability)
As I expect you know, but others my not, that's very true. It was explained to me by a co-worker (private pilot and aerospace engineer) whose father-in-law had recently survived an engine failure on his small airplane. It was a single engine plane, and afterwards, at the insistence of his wife, bought a twin. "That's good", I said. "No", he said, "not necessarily". GA aircraft, unlike commercial airliners, don't have to be certified to climb after an engine failure on takeoff. If they can't, such an event is generally fatal, due to loss of ability to climb and asymmetric thrust. A single engine plane, losing power on takeoff, can usually glide to a forced landing. A twin, with twice the probability of failure, generally loses both power and control.
__________________
Cum catapultae proscribeantur tum soli proscripti catapultas habeant.
Trebuchet is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 06:05 PM   #255
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,092
Originally Posted by RussDill View Post
Ah, but a design with 1 engine is much safer than a design with 2 engines if a single engine failure will lead to a fatal crash in either design (assuming similar reliability)
Totally true. Less critical things to go wrong is always safer.

So a safer design for the JB-10 would have been to have one engine and had two outlets - kind of like the 'rocket belt' design and the Bell design. ( IMO)

I would imagine such a design to not only to be safer, but also easier to build and easier to control.

One engine two outlets must be easier all round than having to keep two jets producing exactly (or as close as possible exactly) the same thrust.

From a design point of view and from simplicity ( not just from safety) having two separate jets seems like a hell of a ball ache - but to be honest i am not (yet) fully up to speed on the stated workings of this JB-10

Last edited by esspee; 12th October 2016 at 06:09 PM.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 06:22 PM   #256
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,092
I uploaded a new video.

I'm pretty much expecting it is going to get taken down - so watch it while you can.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQP7bwps4Qg

Last edited by esspee; 12th October 2016 at 06:31 PM.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 06:32 PM   #257
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,450
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
the NEW footage did not come out until september. No footage FROM SUNSET on SUNSETS facebook page appeared until september.
And this proves a hoax because... how exactly?

Originally Posted by esspee View Post
Nor any mention of the event ON THEIR PAGE. This recent, high def good quality footage from a decent angle basically only appeared in OCtober - with a short clip of it appearing in september ( to teh best of my knowledge)
And this proves a hoax because... how exactly?

Originally Posted by esspee View Post
why no mention of (the Flyboard AIr demo) on SUNSET facebook page until recently? ( long after the event). Also why no mention online of it leadding up to of after the demo? Exception being Frankies page which deleted the article super quick.
And this proves a hoax because... how exactly?
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 06:39 PM   #258
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,092
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
And this proves a hoax because... how exactly?



And this proves a hoax because... how exactly?



And this proves a hoax because... how exactly?
It wouldn't be a very good hoax if was easy to disprove now would it.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 06:47 PM   #259
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,973
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
It wouldn't be a very good hoax if was easy to disprove now would it.
Easy or hard, it still takes a lot more than "These details didn't come out the way I expected them to." Do you have a stronger line of reasoning?
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 06:51 PM   #260
smartcooky
Philosopher
 
smartcooky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Nelson, New Zealand
Posts: 6,450
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
It wouldn't be a very good hoax if was easy to disprove now would it.
You are starting from a flawed premise. You are assuming that its a hoax unless it can be proved otherwise. JayUtah has explained this to you a few times already; this is not how things work.

YOU are making the claim, so the burden of proof is on YOU to prove that Flyboard Air is a hoax, it is not anyone else's job e to disprove YOUR claim.
__________________
► 9/11 was a terrorist attack by Islamic extremists; 12 Apollo astronauts really did walk on the Moon; JFK was assassinated by Lee Harvey Oswald,who acted alone.
► Never underestimate the power of the Internet to lend unwarranted credibility to the colossally misinformed. - Jay Utah
► Heisenberg's Law - The weirdness of the Universe is inversely proportional to the scale at which you observe it, or not.
smartcooky is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 10:37 PM   #261
RussDill
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Charleston
Posts: 5,399
Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
As I expect you know, but others my not, that's very true. It was explained to me by a co-worker (private pilot and aerospace engineer) whose father-in-law had recently survived an engine failure on his small airplane. It was a single engine plane, and afterwards, at the insistence of his wife, bought a twin. "That's good", I said. "No", he said, "not necessarily". GA aircraft, unlike commercial airliners, don't have to be certified to climb after an engine failure on takeoff. If they can't, such an event is generally fatal, due to loss of ability to climb and asymmetric thrust. A single engine plane, losing power on takeoff, can usually glide to a forced landing. A twin, with twice the probability of failure, generally loses both power and control.
I remember a some of incidents in the Grand Canyon involving twin engine aircraft hammering that home.
__________________
The woods are lovely, dark and deep
but i have promises to keep
and lines to code before I sleep
And lines to code before I sleep
RussDill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 10:39 PM   #262
RussDill
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Charleston
Posts: 5,399
Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
You are starting from a flawed premise. You are assuming that its a hoax unless it can be proved otherwise. JayUtah has explained this to you a few times already; this is not how things work.
Not only that, but the more vague the evidence is that it's a hoax, the more difficult it is to disprove, the more difficult it is to disprove, the better the hoax.
__________________
The woods are lovely, dark and deep
but i have promises to keep
and lines to code before I sleep
And lines to code before I sleep
RussDill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 11:18 PM   #263
RussDill
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Charleston
Posts: 5,399
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
the NEW footage did not come out until september. No footage FROM SUNSET on SUNSETS facebook page appeared until september. Nor any mention of the event ON THEIR PAGE. This recent, high def good quality footage from a decent angle basically only appeared in OCtober - with a short clip of it appearing in september ( to teh best of my knowledge)
*sigh*

July 8th, "Sunset GP 2016 video finally out! share it and enjoy your summer!". Contains footage of Flyboard air, matches general timeline of other video releases from other Sunset events. Additionally, is in 1080p.

https://www.facebook.com/events/2103...2471699792999/

Quote:
Yes I am aware of the video taken after the event - we all talked about it on this thread months ago, in detail.
I am not saying VIDEO did not come out. You are mistaking my words - or I am not communicating well - or both.
It happens.
I'm trying to understand the substance of your claims.

Quote:
and yes A - the party clearly happened
and B- why no mention of (the Flyboard AIr demo) on SUNSET facebook page until recently? ( long after the event). Also why no mention online of it leadding up to of after the demo? Exception being Frankies page which deleted the article super quick.
There are a very long list of possible explanations as to why. (And again, a video was posted by sunset earlier). It's their social media page, it's their to promote their brand. What media they put up and when is up to their social media team. I'm not sure how "because flyboard air is a hoax" gets on the list of reasons or why it takes the #1 spot. This is like attributing an unexplained flight delay to chemtrails. There's a lot of reasons for a flight delay before you get down to "because there was a problem with the chemtrail dispenser".

Quote:
p.s
"I even provided media mention."
Which mention? - remind me please.
https://soundcloud.com/radiomonaco95...apata-20052016 (Radio Monaco is 98.2FM in Monaco)

You still need to explain how they convinced everyone at the party to not out the hoax.
__________________
The woods are lovely, dark and deep
but i have promises to keep
and lines to code before I sleep
And lines to code before I sleep
RussDill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 12th October 2016, 11:39 PM   #264
RussDill
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Charleston
Posts: 5,399
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
I uploaded a new video.

I'm pretty much expecting it is going to get taken down - so watch it while you can.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQP7bwps4Qg
Tried watching, couldn't get much further than the claim of it being bought and sold many times "especially in recent years". Although the claim has absolutely no bearing on whether or not flyboard air is a hoax, what's the point in making the claim if you aren't going to cite your facts or even by whom it was purchased and when.

Founded, 1951.
As part of a larger merger, Guinness PLC becomes part of Diageo, 1997
Diageo is acquired by Gullane Entertainment, 2001
Gullane Entertainment is acquired by HiT Entertainment, 2002
Guinness World Records is purchased by the Jim Pattison Group in 2008

So the only actual sale occurred in 2008, the rest were just mergers and acquisitions of parent companies. Do you really think that the above timeline fits in with statement? Was it really worth my time to bother looking that up?

And of course, while it helps that the organization involved was Guinness, since their brand worth is almost entirely tied up with trust and brand recognition, it doesn't really matter if it was Guinness doing the officiating or The local piggly wiggly. The people were still there, the personal footage was still released, companies still went in for sponsorship, and the local news still showed up. The other items are give far more evidence than a verified document from Guinness ever could. Sure they've released a document that says they verified the record occurred, but shred that document and all the other attendance and coverage of the event proves it even stronger.
__________________
The woods are lovely, dark and deep
but i have promises to keep
and lines to code before I sleep
And lines to code before I sleep
RussDill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 04:33 AM   #265
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,092
@RussDill -

I will concede my point about Sunset. One month and one week is a totally reasonable time to expect it to take to do a vid like that. SO you were right and I was wrong there.
I will concede the French speaking radio slot too. Even though i do not speak french - i trust that you do and your sources and research tends to be better than mine.

I also agree that i could have used different language than 'many' and 'recent years'
to be more precise in my video.

However it has changed owners 5 times in the last 20 years.
The reason I did not go into great detail is because it is a youtube video - one that is already too long.
IMO youtube vids have to be to the point. I kind of failed a little in that respect.

It was mostly made for people who leave comments linkng to the World Record as 100% proof - so that i can link this video to them.

The whole point of the video was to try to communicate my opinion that GWR is not a reliable trustworthy authority.
They answer to no one but their clients, their incentive is money and publicity, and they are just a marketing group.

IN retrospect - i could have just missed out the whole 'changing hands' aspect and kept the video simpler and shorter. But its a learning curve.

I only have 3 more videos i want to make - and then i guess it will be time to hang up my tin foil hat.
I was kind of thinking the hoax would have been busted by october. So who knows. Maybe I have been wrong all along.

Even if i am wrong - i think its good to have this thread and my videos out there as a perspective. And if I am proven wrong - the vids will all stay up - but i will add an annotation to the start claiming I was wrong/completely ******* insane.

Last edited by esspee; 13th October 2016 at 04:53 AM.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 05:04 AM   #266
catsmate
No longer the 1
 
catsmate's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 19,126
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
what teh F is VC funding?

haha
Oh good grief.
__________________
As human right is always something given, it always in reality reduces to the right which men give, "concede," to each other. If the right to existence is conceded to new-born children, then they have the right; if it is not conceded to them, as was the case among the Spartans and ancient Romans, then they do not have it. For only society can give or concede it to them; they themselves cannot take it, or give it to themselves.
catsmate is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 05:17 AM   #267
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,092
Lets lighten the mood in here.

Here is the latest - and maybe greatest - Zapata Flyboard Air video yet.

Its the Florida demonstration but from a new angle,

CHeck it out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMmGux8Jw1o
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 06:50 AM   #268
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,973
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
Even if i am wrong - i think its good to have this thread and my videos out there as a perspective.
Nonsense. There is no value in glorifying unsupported claims made in ignorance. Conspiracy theorists always think they're doing the world a great service even if they are wrong, ostensibly by promoting a critical evaluation of claims. That's a very selfish interpretation. Nothing you are doing constitutes a critical evaluation of evidence. Nothing you are doing constitutes a serious investigation into claims. It's simply an exercise in pretending that ignorant expectations are some sort of viable standard of proof and that ignorant opinions merit attention and respect. Find a different way to matter.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 06:56 AM   #269
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Biggest Little City in the World
Posts: 29,518
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Nonsense. There is no value in glorifying unsupported claims made in ignorance. Conspiracy theorists always think they're doing the world a great service even if they are wrong, ostensibly by promoting a critical evaluation of claims. That's a very selfish interpretation. Nothing you are doing constitutes a critical evaluation of evidence. Nothing you are doing constitutes a serious investigation into claims. It's simply an exercise in pretending that ignorant expectations are some sort of viable standard of proof and that ignorant opinions merit attention and respect. Find a different way to matter.

Or, like many CTists, the OP is simply trying to make a buck off the ad revenue on their YT channel.
__________________
"Oh god...What have you done, zooterkin? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!" - Cleon
Hokulele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 07:14 AM   #270
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,092
Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
Or, like many CTists, the OP is simply trying to make a buck off the ad revenue on their YT channel.
My channel is not monetised.
None of my videos are monetised.
I have no interest in monetizing the channel, even if my channel was popular - which it not, nor likely to ever be.
I make them because i like to share my opinion.
And I am also hoping that the videos will help uncover proof (in the way of information from a viewer or in this thread) one way of the other about if it is real or not.

My current opinion is that the Flyboard Air is a hoax.

This opinion is subject to change at any time.

Is yours?

Last edited by esspee; 13th October 2016 at 07:16 AM.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 07:17 AM   #271
Hokulele
Deleterious Slab of Damnation
 
Hokulele's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: The Biggest Little City in the World
Posts: 29,518
My opinion that there is a financial incentive to most publicized CTs?

Nope.
__________________
"Oh god...What have you done, zooterkin? WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!" - Cleon
Hokulele is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 07:18 AM   #272
Jack by the hedge
Safely Ignored
 
Jack by the hedge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 8,575
My current opinion is he needs a flight suit that looks like an Iron Man costume.
Jack by the hedge is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 07:23 AM   #273
Jrrarglblarg
Guest
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 12,673
Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
How different to other grades of kerosene is it? That is basically paraffin, is it not?
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
The fuels are typed and graded based on their impurities (everything aside from the base spirits). RP-1 for rockets, for example, is essentially JP-1 with less sulphur.
It also has to do with length of long chain hydrocarbons, and consistency of length within product, which is also a form of purity. Oils with weird mixtures of longer and shorter chains within range burn okay in some systems but not others, so jet fuel is more like vodka and "lamp oil" kerosene is like Kentucky Gent bourbon-flavored distillery waste.
Jrrarglblarg is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 07:40 AM   #274
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,973
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
My current opinion is that the Flyboard Air is a hoax.
Your opinion is irrelevant. it is either real or fake as a matter of fact, and you are doing pretty much everything you can to avoid determining fact. My conclusion is that, you take some sort of perverse satisfaction from continuing to insinuate that it is fake despite the balance of evidence to the contrary. I don't agree with my colleagues that money is invariably the motivator. In my experience conspiracy theorists are far more likely to be motivated by the prospect of being seen as important or noteworthy.

Conspiracism is like intellectual vandalism. Unable to achieve notoriety by their own achievements, they spray-paint their names on the achievements of others in hopes that when the achievements are mentioned, the vandals will be too.

Quote:
Is yours?
Yes, given suitable evidence. You don't have any of that. As I said, all you have is the observation that the facts don't meet your expectations. It takes very little questioning to discover that your expectations are not based on anything substantial. Hence you have no more credibility than any other conspiracy theorist trying to show the world how very smart he is.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 07:40 AM   #275
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,092
Originally Posted by Hokulele View Post
My opinion that there is a financial incentive to most publicized CTs?

Nope.

If you switched the word financial for 'agenda' or 'interest', then i would say you are spot on.

You might not think its about money for most - but IMO it is..

The problem with the 'conspiracy' world is that its fully mainstream now.

Most of the sites or youtube channels disussing any or all kinds of paranormal, conspiracy, metaphysical, weird stuff, and woo are just doing it for clicks.

SO their content might be good but it is not really authentic opinion. Its for the dollars and for the audience.

There have been some CT channels where IMO with no finacial. But they tend to sell out in the end. Like clockwork. As soon as they get popular.

I have been on youtube for a long time - I have seen so many interesting channels change for the worst as soon as they monetise.
Once someone monetizes it all becomes about the views on a subconscious level.

"will this video do well" is in their minds even if hey do not think it is.

Last edited by esspee; 13th October 2016 at 08:01 AM.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 07:57 AM   #276
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,092
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
I don't agree with my colleagues that money is invariably the motivator. In my experience conspiracy theorists are far more likely to be motivated by the prospect of being seen as important or noteworthy.

.....


Yes, given suitable evidence. You don't have any of that. As I said, all you have is the observation that the facts don't meet your expectations. It takes very little questioning to discover that your expectations are not based on anything substantial. Hence you have no more credibility than any other conspiracy theorist trying to show the world how very smart he is.
SOme small element truth to that for sure. Everyone has an ego do they not?

But its not my motivating factor here.

My motivating factor is to uncover proof either way of it being real or fake.
Then it can finally be put to bed.

Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Unable to achieve notoriety by their own achievements, they spray-paint their names on the achievements of others
You sir are a poet. And i know exactly where you are coming from with that point.

This line reminds me so much of a passage from a famous poem that simply have to quote it.


"not being able to create art
they will not understand art
they will consider their failure as creators
only as a failure of the world
not being able to love fully
they will believe your love incomplete
and then they will hate you
and their hatred will be perfect"



Lets be clear.
I have no hatred for Franky.
When i first saw this thing i was over the moon. Then, almost immediately, i was gutted because it looked to me like a hoax. And no matter how hard i looked, i could find no satisfactory proof that it was real.

Now hoax or not, Franky is either the greatest backyard aviator of all time, or he is the greatest hoaxer of all time.
So he has my respect either way
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 07:59 AM   #277
esspee
black goo
 
esspee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,092
Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
Yes, given suitable evidence. You don't have any of that.
As soon as i see suitable evidence and proof that it is real I too will change my mind.

People in this thread will be the first to know if this happens.
esspee is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 08:19 AM   #278
RussDill
Philosopher
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Charleston
Posts: 5,399
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
However it has changed owners 5 times in the last 20 years.
Lots of companies and things have changed owners 5 times in the last 20 years though. Why does that indicate anything nefarious? A very large number of companies are owned by holding groups and get bought and sold on a regular basis.

Quote:
The reason I did not go into great detail is because it is a youtube video - one that is already too long.
Just cite your sources in the description. Plenty of room. You got the information in the video from somewhere.

Quote:
They answer to no one but their clients, their incentive is money and publicity, and they are just a marketing group.
By that standard, you've described pretty much every privately held company. What you keep leaving out though is that the only reason they have anything to market is brand recognition and trust. Anyone could start verifying world records. What you've described is the exact opposite of a motive to go along with a hoax. If they went along with hoaxes, it would destroy their reputation. There are many other companies with such a reliance and "selling out" is often a death blow.
__________________
The woods are lovely, dark and deep
but i have promises to keep
and lines to code before I sleep
And lines to code before I sleep
RussDill is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 08:22 AM   #279
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
 
JayUtah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 13,973
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
My motivating factor is to uncover proof either way of it being real or fake.
No. The balance of evidence is clearly on the side of authenticity, and your efforts at impeaching it are, for lack of a better word, laughable.

Quote:
Then it can finally be put to bed.
You beg the question that your argument has any objective merit. Again, it's just you trying to set up your ignorant expectations as some sort of standard of proof. I asked you if you had a stronger line of reasoning, and it appears you do not.

Quote:
I have no hatred for Franky.
When i first saw this thing i was over the moon. Then, almost immediately, i was gutted because it looked to me like a hoax. And no matter how hard i looked, i could find no satisfactory proof that it was real.
No.

Again, this is right out of the nut-job playbook. Every conspiracy theorist claims he was at first enamored by a thing, then was dragged against his will to believe it was fake, by the shear weight of evidence, and felt shocked and betrayed because of it. That's all just an act.

You were not compelled against your will to believe it. That's not at all consistent with your behavior here. Your behavior is more consistent with someone who decided ahead of time it was a hoax and is trying his very best to backfill a case toward that conclusion. If you were so "gutted" by Franky's alleged betrayal, it makes more sense that you would be relieved to discover that all your claimed suspicions have reasonable explanations that don't require it to be a hoax. But you cling to the hoax explanation, despite all rational alternatives, like a drowning man to a buoy.
JayUtah is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Old 13th October 2016, 08:27 AM   #280
Tolls
Illuminator
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,582
Originally Posted by esspee View Post
As soon as i see suitable evidence and proof that it is real I too will change my mind.
Your idea of "suitable" keeps shifting and is, currently, far away from what anyone else would consider reasonable.
Tolls is offline   Quote this post in a PM   Nominate this post for this month's language award Copy a direct link to this post Reply With Quote Back to Top
Reply

International Skeptics Forum » General Topics » Conspiracies and Conspiracy Theories

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:43 PM.
Powered by vBulletin. Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
2014, TribeTech AB. All Rights Reserved.
This forum began as part of the James Randi Education Foundation (JREF). However, the forum now exists as
an independent entity with no affiliation with or endorsement by the JREF, including the section in reference to "JREF" topics.

Disclaimer: Messages posted in the Forum are solely the opinion of their authors.