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Tags donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 22nd April 2017, 04:48 PM   #1
WilliamSeger
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Donald Trump has 'dangerous mental illness', say psychiatry experts at Yale conferenc

Here we go again.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-dangerous-mental-illness-yale-psychiatrist-conference-us-president-unfit-james-gartner-a7694316.htm

Quote:
Donald Trump has a “dangerous mental illness” and is not fit to lead the US, a group of psychiatrists has warned during a conference at Yale University.


Mental health experts claimed the President was “paranoid and delusional”, and said it was their “ethical responsibility” to warn the American public about the “dangers” Mr Trump’s psychological state poses to the country.
...
The claims made in the conference have drawn criticism from some in the psychiatric establishment, who say they violate the American Psychiatric Association’s “Goldwater rule,” which states psychiatrists are not to give professional opinions on people they have not personally examined.
...
Responding to the criticism, Dr Gartner said: “This notion that you need to personally interview someone to form a diagnosis actually doesn’t make a whole lotta sense. For one thing, research shows that the psychiatric interview is the least statistical reliable way to make a diagnosis.”
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Old 22nd April 2017, 05:15 PM   #2
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Is stupid a form of crazy?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 05:28 PM   #3
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Trump will probably respond to this in a manner that proves him right.

But yeah, Trump at the very least has a severe personality disorder.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 05:37 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Trump will probably respond to this in a manner that proves him right.

But yeah, Trump at the very least has a severe personality disorder.
... and possibly early Alzheimer's:

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump...many-eu-2017-4

Quote:
Angela Merkel reportedly had to explain the 'fundamentals' of EU trade to Trump 11 times

President Trump did not understand that the US cannot negotiate a trade deal with Germany alone and must deal with the European Union as a bloc, a senior German official told The Times of London.

"Ten times Trump asked [German chancellor Angela Merkel] if he could negotiate a trade deal with Germany. Every time she replied, 'You can’t do a trade deal with Germany, only the EU,'" the official said.

They continued: "On the eleventh refusal, Trump finally got the message, 'Oh, we’ll do a deal with Europe then.'"

Merkel reportedly told her cabinet members that Trump had "very basic misunderstandings" on the "fundamentals" of the EU and trade.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 05:42 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
... and possibly early Alzheimer's:
Before I'll accept hypothesis that Trump's brain is suffering from an illness, physical or mental, I want it established that he ever had a fully functional human brain to begin with. Can anyone provide actual evidence that he's ever had anything other than a pint of bargain-price oatmeal sloshing around in his skull? I'll accept X-rays, CAT scans, affidavits from Quaker Oats researchers, and so forth. The public has a right to know: was it ever cinnamon-apple flavored, or just plain? Regular, or extra-lumpy?
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Old 22nd April 2017, 05:43 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
... and possibly early Alzheimer's:

http://www.businessinsider.com/trump...many-eu-2017-4
Yeah, I saw that. I wonder what Merkel was thinking. Probably cursing America for making her deal with him.

And yes early Alzheimer's is certainly a real possibility. His father had it.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 08:30 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Yeah, I saw that. I wonder what Merkel was thinking. Probably cursing America for making her deal with him.
....
Meetings like that aren't held between the two principals alone. If anything like that happened, it's astonishing that after the second or third repetition, one of Trump's advisors didn't step up and say "Sir, you'll recall that only the EU can negotiate those deals...". Unless his advisors are equally clueless.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 08:45 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Meetings like that aren't held between the two principals alone. If anything like that happened, it's astonishing that after the second or third repetition, one of Trump's advisors didn't step up and say "Sir, you'll recall that only the EU can negotiate those deals...". Unless his advisors are equally clueless.
Advisors? Yes-men. None of them are going to interrupt the Deal Artist when he's negotiating. He doesn't care what the laws or regulations say, he'll just walk away from treaties and trade deals and go his own way. He's Donald J. Trump, Deal Artist. He doesn't like the refugee agreement the country made with Australia? He'll just huff and pout. Nato? Paris Accords? In his crappy little kleptocracy of Trump, Inc. he would be four points up in negotiating and someone could walk in and get him an advantageous agreement. ITRW, our partners just shrug and say "He's obviously a little cray-cray, we'll just wait them out. Someone will fire him or have him committed." And they don't have to wait long. He just sends in a lackie to reverse his position, affording himself plausible deniability with the deplorables.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 08:51 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Before I'll accept hypothesis that Trump's brain is suffering from an illness, physical or mental, I want it established that he ever had a fully functional human brain to begin with. Can anyone provide actual evidence that he's ever had anything other than a pint of bargain-price oatmeal sloshing around in his skull? I'll accept X-rays, CAT scans, affidavits from Quaker Oats researchers, and so forth. The public has a right to know: was it ever cinnamon-apple flavored, or just plain? Regular, or extra-lumpy?
It was steel-cut oatmeal, the best! The biggest! YUGE oatmeal!
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Old 22nd April 2017, 09:02 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Meetings like that aren't held between the two principals alone. If anything like that happened, it's astonishing that after the second or third repetition, one of Trump's advisors didn't step up and say "Sir, you'll recall that only the EU can negotiate those deals...". Unless his advisors are equally clueless.
Tough situation for the staff. If it kept happening as many times as the article describes, I'd assume that he was either incapable of understanding or understood perfectly but didn't care. Either way I'd think most members of any head of state's staff would be reluctant to correct or challenge him in front of a foreign party that he's trying to negotiate with.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 09:04 PM   #11
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Old 22nd April 2017, 09:17 PM   #12
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My favorite diagnosis is syphilis that has now reached his brain.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 09:24 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Before I'll accept hypothesis that Trump's brain is suffering from an illness, physical or mental, I want it established that he ever had a fully functional human brain to begin with.
It could be Alzheimer's on top of everything else
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Old 22nd April 2017, 09:30 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by Modified View Post
It could be Alzheimer's on top of everything else
He's an idiot, has a severe personality disorder, and suffers from Alzheimer's.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 09:44 PM   #15
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Quote:
Dr Gartner said: “This notion that you need to personally interview someone to form a diagnosis actually doesn’t make a whole lotta sense. For one thing, research shows that the psychiatric interview is the least statistical reliable way to make a diagnosis.”
Is this an accurate statement? What is the most statistically reliable way to make a diagnosis? And if it is not in the method in which Dr Gartner has comes to form an opinion on Trump, should his diagnosis be given much credence?

I have no background on this so hopefully someone here has a better foundation to give a response.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 09:45 PM   #16
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See Three Professors of Psychiatry call for "neuropsychiatric evaluation" for further answers to this thread.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 10:04 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Is this an accurate statement? What is the most statistically reliable way to make a diagnosis? And if it is not in the method in which Dr Gartner has comes to form an opinion on Trump, should his diagnosis be given much credence?

I have no background on this so hopefully someone here has a better foundation to give a response.
I'm not a shrink or anything but it makes sense to me. Someone might lie, the shrink might not ask the right questions, ect.

While it isn't difficult to looks at what Trump says and does and determine he has an obvious case of narcissistic personality disorder.

The DSM-5 says individuals with NPD have most or all of the following symptoms:

Quote:
  • Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment from others
  • Fixated on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc.
  • Self-perception of being unique, superior and associated with high-status people and institutions
  • Needing constant admiration from others
  • Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others
  • Exploitative of others to achieve personal gain
  • Unwilling to empathize with others' feelings, wishes, or needs
  • Intensely envious of others and the belief that others are equally envious of them
  • Pompous and arrogant demeanor
He may have more than that too. No reason you can't have more than one mental disorder.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 10:13 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I'm not a shrink or anything but it makes sense to me. Someone might lie, the shrink might not ask the right questions, ect.

While it isn't difficult to looks at what Trump says and does and determine he has an obvious case of narcissistic personality disorder.

The DSM-5 says individuals with NPD have most or all of the following symptoms:



He may have more than that too. No reason you can't have more than one mental disorder.
Those are symptoms of a disorder? I would have thought that was just an unpleasant personality type. I've known several folks who answered to that description quite nicely. Thought they were jerks, didn't know they were lunatics.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 10:18 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Those are symptoms of a disorder? I would have thought that was just an unpleasant personality type. I've known several folks who answered to that description quite nicely. Thought they were jerks, didn't know they were lunatics.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcis...ality_disorder
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Old 22nd April 2017, 11:14 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Those are symptoms of a disorder? I would have thought that was just an unpleasant personality type. I've known several folks who answered to that description quite nicely. Thought they were jerks, didn't know they were lunatics.
Were they also as paranoid and delusional as Trump?

Last edited by WilliamSeger; 22nd April 2017 at 11:43 PM. Reason: typo
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Old 22nd April 2017, 11:34 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Were they also as paranoid and delusional and Trump?
Not quite. They'd exaggerate their abilities and achievements like Trump would, but Trump also seems to be quite willing to just invent things from whole cloth sometimes and that's not a trait I've seen in the folks I'm thinking of.
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Old 22nd April 2017, 11:45 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Were they also as paranoid and delusional and Trump?
So you not only know the degree of Trump's paranoia and delusion but you also know that it crosses the currently agreed threshold of insanity?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 12:06 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Is stupid a form of crazy?
No but sociopathic narcissism is.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 12:17 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So you not only know the degree of Trump's paranoia and delusion but you also know that it crosses the currently agreed threshold of insanity?
I reread the article and couldn't find any mention of any "currently agreed threshold of insanity," but there is certainly no lack of evidence that Trump is paranoid and delusional. What "degree" of mental illness do you find acceptable in a President?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 12:18 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Here we go again.
You need to stop beating this drum. There is no way that the "Trump is crazy" meme will end with a positive result.

To try and overturn an election result based on the opinions of some psychiatrists would cause serious problems. At the very least, we could see years of Supreme Court battles and at the worst, massive civil unrest - even civil war. Not to mention that this would set a precedent to drum out anybody who doesn't subscribe to the current political ideology.

The GOP isn't about to let Trump cost them the next election. If he continues to make unpopular tweets/speeches/decisions then they will try to isolate him and, if necessary, impeach him.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 12:22 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Is this an accurate statement? What is the most statistically reliable way to make a diagnosis? And if it is not in the method in which Dr Gartner has comes to form an opinion on Trump, should his diagnosis be given much credence?

I have no background on this so hopefully someone here has a better foundation to give a response.
I recall reading a long time ago, that the problem for diagnosis in a psychiatric interview, is that you need the cooperation of the other party to volunteer information relevant to the diagnosis, or you have to have a patient which is not able to properly control what he says and thus involuntary give the relevant diagnosis information. The problem is, highly functional sociopath can avoid both categories. You are much more likely to detect them by examining their real life , than with a personal interview.

How correct is that ? I have no idea, I have not checked any psychiatric stuff for a decade. But it makes sense to me.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 12:28 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Before I'll accept hypothesis that Trump's brain is suffering from an illness, physical or mental, I want it established that he ever had a fully functional human brain to begin with. Can anyone provide actual evidence that he's ever had anything other than a pint of bargain-price oatmeal sloshing around in his skull? I'll accept X-rays, CAT scans, affidavits from Quaker Oats researchers, and so forth. The public has a right to know: was it ever cinnamon-apple flavored, or just plain? Regular, or extra-lumpy?

I am reminded of the story about a doctor who had perfected a process for brain transplants, but said it could only be done with the brains of Republicans as donors ...

... because he needed ones that had never been used before.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 12:31 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Meetings like that aren't held between the two principals alone. If anything like that happened, it's astonishing that after the second or third repetition, one of Trump's advisors didn't step up and say "Sir, you'll recall that only the EU can negotiate those deals...". Unless his advisors are equally clueless.

I have a suspicion that Trump doesn't choose his subordinates for their willingness to interrupt, correct, or contradict him. Especially in the presence of others.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 12:35 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You need to stop beating this drum.
You need to stop hoping that will happen, because it won't. Donald Trump will never be "normalized" because too many people can clearly see that Donald Trump is manifestly unfit for office.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 12:35 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
I have a suspicion that Trump doesn't choose his subordinates for their willingness to interrupt, correct, or contradict him. Especially in the presence of others.
They contradict him all the time. Though, no, not when he's in the room.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 01:14 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
They contradict him all the time. Though, no, not when he's in the room.

Not to mention that if confronted with such a contradiction they will cheerfully deny ever having done anything of the sort. Video of them doing it notwithstanding.

After all, any news which puts any of that bunch in a bad light is "fake news". Right?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 01:23 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Not to mention that if confronted with such a contradiction they will cheerfully deny ever having done anything of the sort. Video of them doing it notwithstanding.

After all, any news which puts any of that bunch in a bad light is "fake news". Right?
Or, sometimes they just say Trump meant what he really meant, not what he said, so it's your fault for misinterpreting him.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 01:30 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
Is this an accurate statement? What is the most statistically reliable way to make a diagnosis? And if it is not in the method in which Dr Gartner has comes to form an opinion on Trump, should his diagnosis be given much credence?

I have no background on this so hopefully someone here has a better foundation to give a response.
I am not sure either but celebrities like Trump offer hundreds of hours of audio and video record, personal writings and behavioural accounts over decades upon which to base an opinion.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 03:23 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
You need to stop hoping that will happen, because it won't.
Considering that you have already started at least two threads on the same theme, I guess that this is just the beginning. You have clearly become emotionally invested in the idea that declaring Trump crazy is a good way to get rid of him - even though it's not.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 03:28 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
He's an idiot, has a severe personality disorder, and suffers from Alzheimer's.
And syphilis. Don't forget the syphilis.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 03:47 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Considering that you have already started at least two threads on the same theme, I guess that this is just the beginning. You have clearly become emotionally invested in the idea that declaring Trump crazy is a good way to get rid of him - even though it's not.
You seem to be implying that WilliamSeger doesn't think that Trump is crazy and is only saying to try to get rid of him?

I will let WilliamSeger speak for himself, but personally I say that Trump is crazy (has at least one diagnosable mental disorder) because I think he is.

I do not believe that calling Trump crazy is good way of getting rid of him. Though it is possible that his mental state will devolve to the point of incapacity and he will be removed. I think it is very unlikely that this will happen.

More likely that he gets impeached because the Russian treason stuff is true. Or resigns before he can be removed. I doubt it will happen.

Trump will most likely be the president until at least January 20th, 2021.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 04:03 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
You seem to be implying that WilliamSeger doesn't think that Trump is crazy and is only saying to try to get rid of him?
No.

Even if Trump is clinically insane and unable to hold the job, having him removed from office for that reason is a bad idea as I mentioned above. Worse, he can only be declared legally insane and you can be sure that opposing teams of psychologists will try to cancel each other out.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 04:12 AM   #38
Darat
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No.

Even if Trump is clinically insane and unable to hold the job, having him removed from office for that reason is a bad idea as I mentioned above. Worse, he can only be declared legally insane and you can be sure that opposing teams of psychologists will try to cancel each other out.
And your point contradicts the "diagnoses" that Trump is ill in what way?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 04:12 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Considering that you have already started at least two threads on the same theme, I guess that this is just the beginning. You have clearly become emotionally invested in the idea that declaring Trump crazy is a good way to get rid of him - even though it's not.
Not quite: It's a good reason to get rid of him, but I don't harbor any hope that there is any good way to get Republicans to do what's best for the country. The people who could either enforce the 25th Amendment (Pence and cabinet) or initiate an impeachment (House) seem to be as willing as you are to ignore both his mental illness and his corruption, as long as their reactionary, corporatist agenda is being pursued.

Last edited by WilliamSeger; 23rd April 2017 at 04:20 AM. Reason: clarity
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Old 23rd April 2017, 04:17 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Civet View Post
Tough situation for the staff. If it kept happening as many times as the article describes, I'd assume that he was either incapable of understanding or understood perfectly but didn't care. Either way I'd think most members of any head of state's staff would be reluctant to correct or challenge him in front of a foreign party that he's trying to negotiate with.
The most plausible explanation IMO is that Trump did not even bother to listen at what Merkel was telling him because he is convinced to know everything about any topic. The problem however is that this man has no clue of most of the issues he has to deal with as President. For each of them, which are really complex issues, he has in mind a simple solution which does not work in practice.

Not sure that his staff will be able to make him understand that the world is not black and white, friend or foe, and so on…
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