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Tags donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 23rd April 2017, 04:38 AM   #41
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
To try and overturn an election result based on the opinions of some psychiatrists would cause serious problems. At the very least, we could see years of Supreme Court battles and at the worst, massive civil unrest - even civil war. Not to mention that this would set a precedent to drum out anybody who doesn't subscribe to the current political ideology.

The GOP isn't about to let Trump cost them the next election. If he continues to make unpopular tweets/speeches/decisions then they will try to isolate him and, if necessary, impeach him.
Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No.

Even if Trump is clinically insane and unable to hold the job, having him removed from office for that reason is a bad idea as I mentioned above. Worse, he can only be declared legally insane and you can be sure that opposing teams of psychologists will try to cancel each other out.
BTW, you seem to be confused about how the 25th Amendment works. There is nothing in the amendment to specify what qualifies as "unable to perform the duties of the office." There is no need whatsoever for professional opinion or for Trump to be "declared legally insane": The only opinions that matter are those of the VP and the Cabinet, and possible the House if Trump contests it.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 05:19 AM   #42
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Old 23rd April 2017, 05:22 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No.

Even if Trump is clinically insane and unable to hold the job, having him removed from office for that reason is a bad idea as I mentioned above. Worse, he can only be declared legally insane and you can be sure that opposing teams of psychologists will try to cancel each other out.
I don't know why you think we're saying he's crazy in order to have him removed? Can't we just say he's crazy because we think he's crazy?

And either way, there is no process by which we can somehow have Trump declared insane, and then somehow he isn't president anymore. You're the only person I've ever heard it from, I have never even considered it a possibility given that it isn't.

There is only one way he could be removed from office because he's insane. And that would require Mike Pence and most of the Cabinet to declare so and 2/3 of Congress to make permanent which would make Pence president.

If he becomes so crazy his own people decide he can't be president anymore, things have become really dire. Like he has a complete nervous breakdown and tries to launch nukes for no reason or something.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 05:27 AM   #44
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Thank God you're not saying that
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Old 23rd April 2017, 05:38 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
And your point contradicts the "diagnoses" that Trump is ill in what way?
You are conflating two separate issues. One is whether it is a good idea to remove Trump on the basis that he is insane (rather than for anything that he has done) and the other is whether Trump is actually insane.

I don't deny that he may be mentally ill but I am not going to embrace the idea just because a group of shrinks committed a massive breach of ethical standards by declaring him insane without the appropriate examinations.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 05:42 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
BTW, you seem to be confused about how the 25th Amendment works. There is nothing in the amendment to specify what qualifies as "unable to perform the duties of the office." There is no need whatsoever for professional opinion or for Trump to be "declared legally insane": The only opinions that matter are those of the VP and the Cabinet, and possible the House if Trump contests it.
The 25th amendment may not be the answer that you are looking for. If Trump decides to fight back (and given his ego you can count on it) then it would take a two-thirds vote of both Houses to kick him out.

Even if enough GOPpers went along with the vote, it wouldn't surprise me if a number of Democrats decided to go against the grain in the hope that Trump would be their best ticket to the White House.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 05:51 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
The most plausible explanation IMO is that Trump did not even bother to listen at what Merkel was telling him because he is convinced to know everything about any topic. The problem however is that this man has no clue of most of the issues he has to deal with as President. For each of them, which are really complex issues, he has in mind a simple solution which does not work in practice.

Not sure that his staff will be able to make him understand that the world is not black and white, friend or foe, and so on…
And Merkel was wrong. Germany and the US can negotiate a separate treaty. Germany is sovereign and the EU is not magic. There would be reprecussions, but that is not the same thing as Merkel declaring Germany can't.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 06:07 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And Merkel was wrong. Germany and the US can negotiate a separate treaty. Germany is sovereign and the EU is not magic. There would be reprecussions, but that is not the same thing as Merkel declaring Germany can't.
Haha

So you know better than her what Germany can and can't do?

Hilarious
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Old 23rd April 2017, 06:12 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Haha

So you know better than her what Germany can and can't do?

Hilarious
I do know the difference between "can't" and "physically can but not realistic."

They may have to invoke article 50 to do it, but Trump has 4 years, he can wait.

Last edited by BobTheCoward; 23rd April 2017 at 06:14 AM.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 06:29 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
The 25th amendment may not be the answer that you are looking for. If Trump decides to fight back (and given his ego you can count on it) then it would take a two-thirds vote of both Houses to kick him out.

Even if enough GOPpers went along with the vote, it wouldn't surprise me if a number of Democrats decided to go against the grain in the hope that Trump would be their best ticket to the White House.
I don't think this will happen but if it does, Democrats won't vote in Trump's favor. We already think Trump is too crazy to have nuclear weapons. If he becomes so crazy his own people think he shouldn't have nukes, Democrats won't decide to give him the nukes back just because he might be easier to defeat than Pence.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 06:30 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by The Independent
Donald Trump has a “dangerous mental illness” and is not fit to lead the US, a group of psychiatrists has warned during a conference at Yale University.

Mental health experts claimed the President was “paranoid and delusional”, and said it was their “ethical responsibility” to warn the American public about the “dangers” Mr Trump’s psychological state poses to the country.
Those psychiatrists are ones who did not vote for Trump. You will also be able to find a group of professional psychiatrists who did vote for Trump and still support him. They will say that his personality/behavior does not suggest a mental illness and that he isn't insane.

I want to see a debate or discussion between psychiatrists who oppose Trump and those who support him. That would intrigue me more than any echo chamber.

I suspect that partisanship colors everything including professional, scientific and intellectual realms.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 06:38 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I do know the difference between "can't" and "physically can but not realistic."

They may have to invoke article 50 to do it, but Trump has 4 years, he can wait.
But they're not going to do that which Merkel knows. So she's right, Trump can't do a trade deal with Germany.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 06:44 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
The most plausible explanation IMO is that Trump did not even bother to listen at what Merkel was telling him because he is convinced to know everything about any topic.
Also she's female, so it's difficult for Trump to grasp she might be worth listening to.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 06:46 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Democrats won't decide to give him the nukes back just because he might be easier to defeat than Pence.
Your faith in the altruism of politicians is touching.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 06:47 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
But they're not going to do that which Merkel knows. So she's right, Trump can't do a trade deal with Germany.
Now that is true. There is going to be a ton of things other president's can do that Trump can't.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 07:14 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Those psychiatrists are ones who did not vote for Trump. You will also be able to find a group of professional psychiatrists who did vote for Trump and still support him. They will say that his personality/behavior does not suggest a mental illness and that he isn't insane.

I want to see a debate or discussion between psychiatrists who oppose Trump and those who support him. That would intrigue me more than any echo chamber.

I suspect that partisanship colors everything including professional, scientific and intellectual realms.
Certainly possible right wing shrinks let partisanship color their opinions so much that they convinced themselves that Trump isn't nuts so they could justify voting for him.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 07:21 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Your faith in the altruism of politicians is touching.
It is in their self interest to not die in a nuclear war started by a crazy president.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 07:36 AM   #58
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Quote:
dangerous mental illness
Is that scientific? Is there peer review?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 07:38 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
The most plausible explanation IMO is that Trump did not even bother to listen at what Merkel was telling him because he is convinced to know everything about any topic.

The man-child bores easily, too. I'm sure he tunes out frequently during these kind of talks.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 07:40 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Those psychiatrists are ones who did not vote for Trump. You will also be able to find a group of professional psychiatrists who did vote for Trump and still support him. They will say that his personality/behavior does not suggest a mental illness and that he isn't insane.
.....
Trump's strongest support was among the least educated. I suspect that not many psychiatrists (who are, after all, medical doctors with years of advanced training) voted for Trump, and that the ones who did were rejecting Clinton rather than endorsing Trump.

And mental illnesses and conditions are defined in great detail in the DSM. Shrinks might disagree about the degree to which a particular person's functioning is affected or impaired, but diagnostic criteria are generally agreed upon.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 08:18 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Those psychiatrists are ones who did not vote for Trump. You will also be able to find a group of professional psychiatrists who did vote for Trump and still support him. They will say that his personality/behavior does not suggest a mental illness and that he isn't insane.
I'd suspect so but, despite all of the discussion about the issue, I haven't seen such people come forth. Is anyone aware of any examples? Closest I've seen is folks saying he can't be diagnosed solely through mass media-communicated information.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 08:33 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
So you not only know the degree of Trump's paranoia and delusion but you also know that it crosses the currently agreed threshold of insanity?
Insanity can be interpreted in a 1,000 ways. You need a more precise word if you want to ask what line Trump's pathology does or does not cross.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 08:37 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And Merkel was wrong. Germany and the US can negotiate a separate treaty. Germany is sovereign and the EU is not magic. There would be reprecussions, but that is not the same thing as Merkel declaring Germany can't.
In theory Germany could, indeed. As a matter of fact Germany, just as the other Member States of the European Union has decided to exercise this part of its sovereignty in common with the other members of the EU.

Probably because Germany considers that trough a global negotiation at EU level it can reach much better and wider agreements than when it negotiates alone for its own account. The second reason is that Germany considers that when it signs an international treaty it has a commitment to fully respect the clauses of said treaty (and the EU results from international treaties). I know this might seem strange to someone like Trump who is not a reliable business partner, but this is a fact. The third reason is that Germany does not want to play the "divide et impera" game proposed by Trump where it has nothing to win.

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Old 23rd April 2017, 08:39 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
I recall reading a long time ago, that the problem for diagnosis in a psychiatric interview, is that you need the cooperation of the other party to volunteer information relevant to the diagnosis, or you have to have a patient which is not able to properly control what he says and thus involuntary give the relevant diagnosis information. The problem is, highly functional sociopath can avoid both categories. You are much more likely to detect them by examining their real life , than with a personal interview.

How correct is that ? I have no idea, I have not checked any psychiatric stuff for a decade. But it makes sense to me.
Not at all.

Behavior is observable. You don't need cooperation if you have sufficient observation.

As for "able to fool" to some extent when a particular issue is being determined (parole, child custody, etc) people can fool psychiatrists and other evaluators. But that's true of anything, just look at the con artist who got millions of people to elect him POTUS.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 09:19 AM   #65
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"Crazy Trump" would be ousted due to crazy actions, not for being crazy. It's possible.

Meantime, a quote from I dunno who or where- "Sane people never accomplish anything". You have to be fringe to stir things into actuality.

Also, making people think you are near the edge is an excellent defense mechanism. Works in international politics too.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 09:28 AM   #66
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Huh, a lot of folks worried about trump's danger to the USA's democratic process are borrowing a trick from Soviet Russia: declaring political opponents insane.

Not a good look.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 09:33 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Huh, a lot of folks worried about trump's danger to the USA's democratic process are borrowing a trick from Soviet Russia: declaring political opponents insane.

Not a good look.
It may not be a good look, but the fact is that someone can (1) be a danger to the democratic process and (2) be insane. The fact that you're concerned about (1) doesn't make (2) false or declaring (2) a "trick".

That said, I'm not too impressed with psychiatrists publicly diagnosing public figures from a distance, not because I think it's a propaganda trick, but because it seems unethical to me.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 09:49 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Huh, a lot of folks worried about trump's danger to the USA's democratic process are borrowing a trick from Soviet Russia: declaring political opponents insane.

Not a good look.
This is an exceptionally dishonest post.

The Soviets classified political dissent as a mental illness. If you weren't a communist, you were crazy.

Trump being crazy has nothing to do with him being a Republican. If John Kasich was president, I would not call him crazy.

Trump is crazy based on him having the symptoms of at least one mental disorder.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 09:50 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Huh, a lot of folks worried about trump's danger to the USA's democratic process are borrowing a trick from Soviet Russia: declaring political opponents insane.

Not a good look.
Hardly comparable.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 10:00 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Loss Leader View Post
My favorite diagnosis is syphilis that has now reached his brain.
Now I have this image of syphilis saying, "Umm . . . it's gotta be here somewhere, right?"

[/derail]
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Old 23rd April 2017, 10:00 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by casebro View Post
"Crazy Trump" would be ousted due to crazy actions, not for being crazy. It's possible.

Meantime, a quote from I dunno who or where- "Sane people never accomplish anything". You have to be fringe to stir things into actuality.

Also, making people think you are near the edge is an excellent defense mechanism. Works in international politics too.
Yeah. Being crazy works so well that a psycho might have to shoot himself to avoid capture by the people he set out to slaughter wholesale. Not naming any names...

I'm provisionally assuming your definition of "works in international politics" is also correspondingly fuzzy. I've not yet been able to assure myself that anything about international politics actually "works" in any reliable sense. The fact that a broken clock doesn't explode if you try to wind it doesn't mean it "works". That just means it won't explode if you try to wind it. Which is sometimes more than can be said about international politics. Possibly, in part, because some people actually believe being crazy "works" in international politics.

More generally, I would have to take issue with the implication that there are many endeavors in which being crazy is actually a benefit. Carrying out a rape or a murder comes to mind. But being crazy doesn't help get away with it. Maybe a gunfight? A loon might be too crazy to be nervous, which could be an advantage. Unless the loon has a twitch or something.

Might as well face facts, dude. There is no way to normalize this Trump president aberration. It's just plain crazy that he's president and has the authority to launch the world's most lethal nuclear arsenal.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 10:16 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Were they also as paranoid and delusional as Trump?
No one is as paranoid and delusional as Trump - he' the most paranoid and delusional person everywhere, it's ridiculous. This paranoia is YUGE.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 10:20 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
And syphilis. Don't forget the syphilis.
Prettiest syphilis you'll ever see. I love it, it's just great.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 10:27 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Degeneve View Post
...The third reason is that Germany does not want to play the "divide et impera" game proposed by Trump where it has nothing to win.
The question then is simply: What can Trump offer that is a net win for Germany?


Yes, I am quietly chuckling, too.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 11:46 AM   #75
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Responding to the criticism, Dr Gartner said: “This notion that you need to personally interview someone to form a diagnosis actually doesn’t make a whole lotta sense. For one thing, research shows that th psychiatric interview is the least statistical reliable way to make a diagnosise.”
What other method would a psychiatrist typically use to diagnose a patient?

I've been to a few in my life. They didn't mount a GoPro camera on me for two weeks and watch how I live. They talked to me and observed my behavior. If his statement is true then there are probably a lot of misdiagnosed patients!

Will watching someone on TV really help form a diagnoses? Analyzing what they have done publicly?

Would this doctor tell a new patient the same thing? He seems to be undermining his own profession.

ETA
Did the actually say "dangerous" medical condition? Because that is the part that has my eyes rolling a bit.

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Old 23rd April 2017, 12:07 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
....
ETA
Did the actually say "dangerous" medical condition? Because that is the part that has my eyes rolling a bit.
Do you think a person who could single handedly start a war is potentially dangerous?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 12:43 PM   #77
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
What other method would a psychiatrist typically use to diagnose a patient?

I've been to a few in my life. They didn't mount a GoPro camera on me for two weeks and watch how I live. They talked to me and observed my behavior. If his statement is true then there are probably a lot of misdiagnosed patients!
It's not hard to believe that misdiagnoses are common. But since psychiatrists can't typically mount a GoPro on you and they don't have hundreds of hours of video from elsewhere, interviews are about all they can do, isn't it?

Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
Did the actually say "dangerous" medical condition? Because that is the part that has my eyes rolling a bit.
From the OP article:

Quote:
Speaking at the conference at Yale’s School of Medicine on Thursday, one of the mental health professionals, Dr John Gartner, a practising psychotherapist who advised psychiatric residents at Johns Hopkins University Medical School, said: “We have an ethical responsibility to warn the public about Donald Trump's dangerous mental illness.”
...
James Gilligan, a psychiatrist and professor at New York University, told the conference he had worked some of the “most dangerous people in society”, including murderers and rapists — but that he was convinced by the “dangerousness” of Mr Trump.

“I’ve worked with some of the most dangerous people our society produces, directing mental health programmes in prisons,” he said.

“I’ve worked with murderers and rapists. I can recognise dangerousness from a mile away. You don’t have to be an expert on dangerousness or spend fifty years studying it like I have in order to know how dangerous this man is.”
If the most powerful man in the world is actually delusional -- i.e. if he is unable to distinguish his own imagination from reality -- then he's extremely dangerous. But, hey, maybe he isn't really delusional; maybe he's just a pathological liar who simply can't control his impulses to lie, or maybe he's just a manipulative, narcissistic conman who has coldly calculated that the benefits of outrageous lying outweigh the potential downside.

Obviously, Trump sycophants will yelp about the "dangerous mental illness" possibility, but I have yet to see any possible explanation for his bizarre behavior and "alternative facts" that isn't "dangerous."
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Old 23rd April 2017, 01:22 PM   #78
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“I say pathological because I actually think Donald, if you hooked him up to a lie detector test, he could say one thing in the morning, one thing at noon and one thing in the evening, all contradictory and he’d pass the lie detector test each time. Whatever lie he’s telling, at that minute he believes it, but the man is utterly amoral.”
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Old 23rd April 2017, 01:34 PM   #79
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Why does he personally call Washington Post reporters if they are fake news?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 01:34 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post


“I say pathological because I actually think Donald, if you hooked him up to a lie detector test, he could say one thing in the morning, one thing at noon and one thing in the evening, all contradictory and he’d pass the lie detector test each time. Whatever lie he’s telling, at that minute he believes it, but the man is utterly amoral.”
The problem with the poll he's referring is that it found that 96% of the people who admit that they voted for him say they would vote for him again. "Buyer's remorse" might well be a rational reason for lying about that.

ETA: The "popular vote" thing Trump mentioned is based on the poll finding that only 85% of those who say they voted for Clinton would vote for her now. Since nothing changed other than she lost, I suspect that some of those "buyer's remorse" Republican are hiding in this group. Again, perfectly rational lying.

Last edited by WilliamSeger; 23rd April 2017 at 01:43 PM.
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