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Tags donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 23rd April 2017, 01:36 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
The problem with the poll he's referring is that it found that 96% of the people who admit that they voted for him say they would vote for him again. "Buyer's remorse" might well be a rational reason for lying about that.
He also lost the popular vote.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 02:11 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
He also lost the popular vote.
That proves that he's insane.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 02:23 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
What other method would a psychiatrist typically use to diagnose a patient?
Well, in the case of an ordinary person, a shrink might use medical records and history, observations by other doctors and medical personnel, police reports, accounts by family members, letters and diaries, etc. In other words, all evidence of how the person perceives and relates to the world around him.

In the case of Trump, we have 40+ years of his own statements, much of it recorded on video, observations by people who know him and have worked for or with him, depositions and documentation associated with as many as 4000 law suits, and accounts of his behavior in numerous varied circumstances. Much more is publicly known about Trump than any shrink would know about any ordinary person. A shrink might not be able to formally diagnose someone he has never seen as a patient, but he is certainly equipped to say something like "Trump displays the characteristics that would be associated with a diagnosis of ....."

Last edited by Bob001; 23rd April 2017 at 02:26 PM.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 02:34 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That proves that he's insane.
He's claiming he did. It's not a good sign.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 02:50 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by Stacko View Post
He's claiming he did. It's not a good sign.
ALL politicians put a positive spin on cherry picked poll results. Better send the entire congress to the looney bin.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 02:55 PM   #86
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ALL politicians put a positive spin on cherry picked poll results. Better send the entire congress to the looney bin.
I'm pretty sure Obama didn't tweet out poll results at all when he was president.

Last edited by Tony Stark; 23rd April 2017 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 03:04 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ALL politicians put a positive spin on cherry picked poll results. Better send the entire congress to the looney bin.
Why do you bring up this false equivalence that has been addressed multiple times? You know damn well Trump is so far off the chart it simply is not the same thing.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 03:09 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ALL politicians put a positive spin on cherry picked poll results. Better send the entire congress to the looney bin.
Oh, come on! How many politicians can you name that claim they won the popular vote when they didn't?

Bonus question: If Trump actually believes he won the popular vote -- i.e. it's not just "spin" -- then would you agree that that's a delusion?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 03:21 PM   #89
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Oh, come on! How many politicians can you name that claim they won the popular vote when they didn't?
The tweets said, "Would still beat Hillary in ..... ...popular vote" and you misrepresented them. Maybe you are insane.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 03:31 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ALL politicians put a positive spin on cherry picked poll results. Better send the entire congress to the looney bin.
To be fair, Trump's claim that he won the popular vote has less to do with "cherry picked poll results" and more to do with evidence-free claims that 3 million illegal immigrants voted for Hillary.

Not really the same thing at all. Not, in my opinion, evidence of mental illness necessarily, but you really mischaracterized this pathetic lie.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 04:02 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Well, duuuhhh!!! And in other news, water is wet and the sun is really hot!!!!
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Old 23rd April 2017, 04:20 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Huh, a lot of folks worried about trump's danger to the USA's democratic process are borrowing a trick from Soviet Russia: declaring political opponents insane.

Not a good look.
Feel free to show the class anecdotes, or any other form of evidence that Trump is not in fact a total loony.

From where I sit, I can point to any one of a number of examples where it is perfectly appropriate to question the sanity of that pile of trash.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 05:38 PM   #93
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Trump may be insane, but the 60 million who voted for him aren't. His behavior was well documented before the election so they knew (or should have known) what they were in for. These people need to be taught a lesson about 'lesser evil', and we shouldn't get in the way of that.

Democrats should not try to remove Trump, but just let him continue to mess things up (of course they must not work with him either, or Republicans would drop him in a heartbeat). Republicans will eventually be forced to take action, and when that happens we need them to own it.

So please ignore these psychiatrists who say Trump is mentally ill. Perhaps he is, but telling people that won't do any good. It's not Trump that's the problem, but the people who support him - and any actions we take to remove him will only make them hate us more.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 07:56 PM   #94
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Indeed, best to not make the wretch a martyr. Let him hoist himself on his own petard... unless he really gets dangerous.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 08:25 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
ALL politicians put a positive spin on cherry picked poll results. Better send the entire congress to the looney bin.
It is not a positive spin. It is an outright lie or delusion.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 08:26 PM   #96
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Democrats should not try to remove Trump, but just let him continue to mess things up (of course they must not work with him either, or Republicans would drop him in a heartbeat). Republicans will eventually be forced to take action, and when that happens we need them to own it.
This would be sound advice, if Trump's actions didn't actually affect millions of people. But they do, so it is not good advice at all.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 08:46 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by NoahFence View Post
Feel free to show the class anecdotes, or any other form of evidence that Trump is not in fact a total loony.
....
This is in no way a defense of Trump. But I just note that what he is doing gets him what he wants, and it's been that way pretty much all his life. "Crazy like a fox" is the phrase that comes to mind.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 08:49 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Huh, a lot of folks worried about trump's danger to the USA's democratic process are borrowing a trick from Soviet Russia: declaring political opponents insane.

Not a good look.

How would it look different if people are thinking he should be removed from office because he actually is mentally unfit for the responsibilities?

How do you tell the difference between a political ploy and sincere concern?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 08:50 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Trump may be insane, but the 60 million who voted for him aren't. His behavior was well documented before the election so they knew (or should have known) what they were in for. These people need to be taught a lesson about 'lesser evil', and we shouldn't get in the way of that.
What lesson is supposed to be taught? That you must only vote for vertical thinking Democrats?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 08:50 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Lurch View Post
Indeed, best to not make the wretch a martyr. Let him hoist himself on his own petard... unless he really gets dangerous.
I think part of him hoisting himself (best self, truly great self, believe me) is having this dialogue ongoing. When you Google "Is Donald Trump Mentally Ill" and get 12,000,000 responses in .43 seconds, you've got someone at a considerable political disadvantage.

All you need is one celebrity (Obama, Mark Cuban, Rosie, Arnie) to tweet about the "35 Psychiatric Professionals say Donnie the T is cray-cray" and it's game over. Donald will go on Fox and Friends and do his best Captain Queeg imitation.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 09:02 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
<snip>

That said, I'm not too impressed with psychiatrists publicly diagnosing public figures from a distance, not because I think it's a propaganda trick, but because it seems unethical to me.

Do you believe that it is impossible for professionals in the field to make an accurate diagnosis without personal interviews, regardless of how much other available data there is?

Or do you think only that it is unethical to arrive at such a diagnosis publicly, regardless of whether or not it is based in fact?

Should they keep silent out of some arbitrary ethical principle, even if their concern is justified by an abundance of evidence, and the welfare of the country is at stake?

Also, what is this ethical principle based on? Are professional groups condemning these statements and calling for the responsible parties to lose their licenses?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 09:09 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
This is in no way a defense of Trump. But I just note that what he is doing gets him what he wants, and it's been that way pretty much all his life. "Crazy like a fox" is the phrase that comes to mind.
Foxes be crazy. But they're cunning and deeply self-interested.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 09:09 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by Oystein View Post
Prettiest syphilis you'll ever see. I love it, it's just great.

He should be congratulated for his syphilis.

Excellent work.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 09:25 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
<snip>

That said, I'm not too impressed with psychiatrists publicly diagnosing public figures from a distance, not because I think it's a propaganda trick, but because it seems unethical to me.

And a post just upthread also brings up this aspect.

From the OP article;
Quote:
Speaking at the conference at Yale’s School of Medicine on Thursday, one of the mental health professionals, Dr John Gartner, a practising psychotherapist who advised psychiatric residents at Johns Hopkins University Medical School, said: “We have an ethical responsibility to warn the public about Donald Trump's dangerous mental illness.”
Dueling ethics?

Do you think your command of the ethics involved is superior to someone who not only works in the field, but teaches it?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 09:29 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
I want to see a debate or discussion between psychiatrists who oppose Trump and those who support him. That would intrigue me more than any echo chamber.

.
I would want to see them in a Thunderdome death match. Now that's Entertainment!
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Old 23rd April 2017, 09:31 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
Trump may be insane, but the 60 million who voted for him aren't.

Evidence?

Quote:
His behavior was well documented before the election so they knew (or should have known) what they were in for.

<snip>
This is not an overwhelmingly convincing argument in support of their sanity.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 10:14 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I'm not a shrink or anything but it makes sense to me. Someone might lie, the shrink might not ask the right questions, ect.

While it isn't difficult to looks at what Trump says and does and determine he has an obvious case of narcissistic personality disorder.
Makes sense.

Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
I recall reading a long time ago, that the problem for diagnosis in a psychiatric interview, is that you need the cooperation of the other party to volunteer information relevant to the diagnosis, or you have to have a patient which is not able to properly control what he says and thus involuntary give the relevant diagnosis information. The problem is, highly functional sociopath can avoid both categories. You are much more likely to detect them by examining their real life , than with a personal interview.
I haven't interacted with many shrinks overall but I would hope they are well versed in posing questions in a manner which lessens the ability of the patient to consistently deceive them. Granted of course that all shrinks and patients are not created equal, some more capable than others.

Originally Posted by Sideroxylon View Post
I am not sure either but celebrities like Trump offer hundreds of hours of audio and video record, personal writings and behavioural accounts over decades upon which to base an opinion.
I don't doubt that a qualified expert can make a baseline diagnosis after overlooking a large amount of personal interactions a single person has. Honestly though, I don't believe the number of doctors that participated and shared their opinion dedicated the time to take in the vast amount of information we have on Trump. There is a vast amount of information to parse through for these guys, but I don't think they all dedicated the time and energy to going over all of it to base there decisions. Not that they have to, but putting forward the amount available does not sway me. Guess I am pessimistic to the work ethic of others when they feel the diagnosis should be obvious to everyone.

Again, this doesn't negate their experience or opinion, just that saying we have hundreds of hours of Trump interactions to base an opinion on doesn't mean these guys have actually taken the time to use those resources before coming up with their diagnosis.

My issues arise from two things mainly with the statements put forward. First that the psychiatric interview is the least statistically reliable method of forming a diagnosis. Do we not use this process to determine competency of defendants in court proceedings? If it is the least statistically reliable method, why is it used? What methods are more reliable and why are they not implemented?

Beyond that, the sentence -
“I’ve worked with murderers and rapists. I can recognise dangerousness from a mile away. You don’t have to be an expert on dangerousness or spend fifty years studying it like I have in order to know how dangerous this man is.”

This seems to equate Trump with murderers and rapists in relation to how dangerous he is, without the caveat of taking into account his position as President. Saying his personality traits/disorders are dangerous due to the position he holds seems to be a much different position than what is put forth. Maybe that distinction shouldn't matter, but to me it is a very callous omission for a professional to make.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 10:32 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
My issues arise from two things mainly with the statements put forward. First that the psychiatric interview is the least statistically reliable method of forming a diagnosis. Do we not use this process to determine competency of defendants in court proceedings? If it is the least statistically reliable method, why is it used? What methods are more reliable and why are they not implemented?
I don't think that is a good example. Courts and evidence is ridiculously unscientific and unreliable.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 10:41 PM   #109
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think that is a good example. Courts and evidence is ridiculously unscientific and unreliable.
I don't exactly agree with your statement but I will grant that the courts have other priorities to which I can see your point of view. Expediency and cost come to mind, which I agree have an overriding influence on something like this. But my questions still stands in relation to it being the least statistically reliable method. If there is no other method that can outweigh those, then the statement is not accurate or we are doing something very wrong.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 10:52 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
You are conflating two separate issues. One is whether it is a good idea to remove Trump on the basis that he is insane (rather than for anything that he has done) and the other is whether Trump is actually insane.

I don't deny that he may be mentally ill but I am not going to embrace the idea just because a group of shrinks committed a massive breach of ethical standards by declaring him insane without the appropriate examinations.
Almost right now but it is you that has done the conflating. You have assumed people accept the diagnosis as a way to get him removed.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 10:52 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I haven't interacted with many shrinks overall but I would hope they are well versed in posing questions in a manner which lessens the ability of the patient to consistently deceive them. Granted of course that all shrinks and patients are not created equal, some more capable than others.
I haven't either, but last time I looked this was a particular problem which was not addressable if the interviewed is highly functional and knew what he was interrogated upon.
At some point you have either to trust the answer, or you are searching for a particular one , in which case it isn't anymore a diagnosis, isn't it ?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 10:53 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Also she's female, so it's difficult for Trump to grasp she might be worth listening to.
To be fair he probably didn't even notice she was in the room, after all she is not usually described as "hot".
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Old 23rd April 2017, 10:55 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Huh, a lot of folks worried about trump's danger to the USA's democratic process are borrowing a trick from Soviet Russia: declaring political opponents insane.

Not a good look.
Are they?
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Old 23rd April 2017, 11:11 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
I haven't either, but last time I looked this was a particular problem which was not addressable if the interviewed is highly functional and knew what he was interrogated upon.
At some point you have either to trust the answer, or you are searching for a particular one , in which case it isn't anymore a diagnosis, isn't it ?
I don't doubt there is an issue with highly intelligent and knowledgeable patients capable of deceiving their shrinks and causing missed diagnosis or misdiagnosis. Maybe the inclusion of outside information in conjuncture with the psychiatric evaluation lessens the error rate. I wonder what number of patients match your description and are capable of deceiving a trained professional to diminish the method entirely.

As to your second question, not sure if that is a dig at me or a sincere point to put forward. I am not questioning the diagnosis, only the accuracy of the method in which it is discerned. The expert quoted expresses that the method prescribed is not accurate. My focus is on this claim, not his personal diagnosis of Trump.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 11:44 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Almost right now but it is you that has done the conflating. You have assumed people accept the diagnosis as a way to get him removed.
No, I have been reading the posts in this thread. Of course, it's possible that you have a lot of people on ignore.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 11:47 PM   #116
WilliamSeger
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
That proves that he's insane.
For those claiming this is just a political tactic, please read the following excerpt from an AP interview. Whatever label you want to put on it, Donald Trump is not a normal person:

Originally Posted by AP
TRUMP: OK. The one thing I've learned to do that I never thought I had the ability to do. I don't watch CNN anymore.

AP: You just said you did.

TRUMP: No. No, I, if I'm passing it, what did I just say (inaudible)?

AP: You just said —

TRUMP: Where? Where?

AP: Two minutes ago.

TRUMP: No, they treat me so badly. No, I just said that. No, I, what'd I say, I stopped watching them. But I don't watch CNN anymore. I don't watch MSNBC. I don't watch it. Now I heard yesterday that MSNBC, you know, they tell me what's going on.

AP: Right.

TRUMP: In fact, they also did. I never thought I had the ability to not watch. Like, people think I watch (MSNBC's) "Morning Joe." I don't watch "Morning Joe." I never thought I had the ability to, and who used to treat me great by the way, when I played the game. I never thought I had the ability to not watch what is unpleasant, if it's about me. Or pleasant. But when I see it's such false reporting and such bad reporting and false reporting that I've developed an ability that I never thought I had. I don't watch things that are unpleasant. I just don't watch them.

AP: And do you feel like that's, that's because of the office that you now occupy —

TRUMP: No.

AP: That you've made that change?

TRUMP: I don't know why it is, but I've developed that ability, and it's happened over the last, over the last year.

AP: That's interesting.

TRUMP: And I don't watch things that I know are going to be unpleasant. CNN has covered me unfairly and incorrectly and I don't watch them anymore. A lot of people don't watch them anymore, they're now in third place. But I've created something where people are watching ... but I don't watch CNN anymore. I don't watch MSNBC anymore. I don't watch things, and I never thought I had that ability. I always thought I'd watch.

AP: Sure.

TRUMP: I just don't. And that's taken place over the last year. And you know what that is, that's a great, it's a great thing because you leave, you leave for work in the morning you know, you're, you don't watch this total negativity. I never thought I'd be able to do that and for me, it's so easy to do now. Just don't watch.

AP: That's interesting.

TRUMP: Maybe it's because I'm here. I don't know.
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Old 23rd April 2017, 11:59 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
No, I have been reading the posts in this thread. Of course, it's possible that you have a lot of people on ignore.
When you made that comment you were whether by mistake or misunderstanding conflating two different things. It would seem you've now understood your mistake/misunderstanding which is what we all strive to do.
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Old 24th April 2017, 01:21 AM   #118
psionl0
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
For those claiming this is just a political tactic, please read the following excerpt from an AP interview. Whatever label you want to put on it, Donald Trump is not a normal person:
Point taken. It's possible to find a more spurious reason to label Trump insane than that he didn't get a majority of the national vote.
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Old 24th April 2017, 01:24 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
When you made that comment you were whether by mistake or misunderstanding conflating two different things. It would seem you've now understood your mistake/misunderstanding which is what we all strive to do.
You will have to take all those posters off ignore in order to realize that it is not an assumption that there are calls here to have Trump removed because he's insane.
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Old 24th April 2017, 03:32 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
For those claiming this is just a political tactic, please read the following excerpt from an AP interview. Whatever label you want to put on it, Donald Trump is not a normal person:
I feel sorry for his translator. Toughest gig out there after Press Secretary.
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