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Tags donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 24th April 2017, 09:46 AM   #161
Bob001
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One element of mental illness is a rejection of objective reality. Most of what Trump says and apparently believes about the military is just not true:
http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._military.html
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Old 24th April 2017, 09:53 AM   #162
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Its funny to see mentally ill shrinks give a diagnosis of Trump. The left is truly mentally ill.
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Old 24th April 2017, 09:55 AM   #163
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Its funny to see mentally ill shrinks give a diagnosis of Trump. The left is truly mentally ill.
Isn't that a bit circular?
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Old 24th April 2017, 11:15 AM   #164
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Isn't that a bit circular?
ssh... I'm not sure he/she/it realizes. It's a hoot to watch.
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Old 24th April 2017, 12:32 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by WilliamSeger View Post
Are you incapable of drawing your own conclusions?
I'm not sure what that has to do with my comment.
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Old 24th April 2017, 12:33 PM   #166
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
"Popular vote" is the not universally understood term.

What is not universally understood about the phrase "popular vote"?

Quote:

It's probably more lack of experience than insanity.

A seasoned politician can talk the pants off an interviewer without saying anything. In time, Trump should be able to develop a similar skill.

Trump has been doing interviews longer than many seasoned politicians have even been wearing pants.

How much more experience does he need?

There is going to be some point where it is evident that he's not going to improve any more than he already has.

Do you honestly believe he hasn't reached that point yet? He hasn't got all that much time left to improve. At his age and physical condition he'll be lucky to manage another decade. What's he going to pick up that he was unable to learn over the last half century?
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Old 24th April 2017, 12:56 PM   #167
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If you go back a page you will see that I have already dealt with these questions.
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Old 24th April 2017, 01:02 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
Speaking of expressing a coherent thought, if you have something to say, please try words. I'm not so good at animated GIFs.
Possibly, though I cannot be 100% certain: " I am laughing like a demented dog because I can't think of something intelligent to say and what you said was so funny to me!!!!! Give me some time to recover and catch my breath please!!!!!"
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Old 24th April 2017, 01:13 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
How is that better than interweaving three sentences into one? Give Trump his due, man.
It makes perfect sense either way though. We would, by the by, love to give trumpf his due, but we don't wish to have what the response would be were
we to do so..............
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Old 24th April 2017, 02:34 PM   #170
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It's a different ball game when you are a politician.

Why? Politicians are just trying to present themselves to the public in the best possible light. Just like any other performer.

The role they are trying to get doesn't change any of that.

The exchange being discussed didn't involve any tough policy questions, or arcane economic puzzles. It wasn't about ideology. There weren't any "trick questions".

He started digging himself a hole and couldn't stop digging long enough to get his foot out of his mouth.

Quote:

I actually understood that he doesn't like CNN in that interview. A true politician would never have given away so much information in an interview. They know that every word they utter is potentially a weapon for their opponents.

You misspelled "competent".
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Old 24th April 2017, 02:41 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Sure there is. I can think of at least two, offhand.

But it's funny how "talks like a politician" is suddenly a positive character trait--just in time to determine Trump doesn't have it.

Who was making that claim?

All I've seen is someone saying he wasn't good at it.

Nothing there about the quality of the skill. Positive or otherwise. Just the competence.
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Old 24th April 2017, 02:46 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Affectation of ignorance ("I don't understand you therefore you must be talking nonsense") is one of the ways you can dishonestly deflect a question. Good politicians know all the tricks.

Actually, I have known of a number of politicians who didn't appear to talk well in interviews. Some stuttered, some swore, some had nervous ticks etc. They provided great fodder for stand up comedians but some had very successful careers. So Trump botching an interview doesn't really prove anything one way or another.

None of those prevent someone from being coherent. Yeah, they might be a bit distracting, and they might cost a few brownie points by comparison to some more photogenic example, but they don't prevent someone from expressing themselves with complete sentences, and offering coherent concepts.
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Old 24th April 2017, 02:53 PM   #173
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dup
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Old 24th April 2017, 02:55 PM   #174
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Originally Posted by Segnosaur
It can't be syphilis.

Remember, Trump's "Personal Vietnam" was his ability to avoid STDs in the 70s.

http://people.com/politics/trump-boa...sonal-vietnam/

“It’s amazing, I can’t even believe it. I’ve been so lucky in terms of that whole world, it is a dangerous world out there. It’s like Vietnam, sort of. It is my personal Vietnam. I feel like a great and very brave solider,” Trump said in the interview when Howard Stern asked how he handled making sure he wasn’t contracting STDs from the women he was sleeping with. The business-mogul-turned-politician elaborated on the fact in the interview, calling women’s vaginas “potential landmines” and saying “there’s some real danger there.”

Taking into account Trump's total lack of familiarity with anything even marginally resembling the truth, his apparently compulsive need to lie even when he doesn't have to, and his propensity to defend himself by making bombastic brags about the exact opposite of what he is trying to discount ...

... I have to say that that might be the most compelling evidence that he had contracted an STD I've seen so far.
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Old 24th April 2017, 03:04 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
What's to explain? Clarity of speech is a desirable trait except in politics where the opposite is the case.

Evasive discourse, political doubletalk, the ability to keep from being persuaded into committing to a particular position or viewpoint ... these are the types of "lack of clarity" which competent politicians engage in. To do so convincingly requires even more clarity of speech and care in the words being spoken than does someone not practicing evasion.

Trump did none of that. He demonstrated an inability to even form coherent concepts, much less express them.

There was no political art there. No art at all. Just someone trying desperately and unsuccessfully to form an entire sentence, and not bothering much about its content.

Quote:

There is no question that Trump didn't talk very well in the interview but his problem was making his views on CNN and MSNBC known too clearly.

Bullhockey. Everyone knew that already.
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Old 24th April 2017, 03:20 PM   #176
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
If you go back a page you will see that I have already dealt with these questions.

Is that what you think you did?
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Old 24th April 2017, 03:23 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I don't know whether diagnosis requires personal interviews, but I do think publicly discussing diagnoses is an issue, whether the person is your patient or not.

Do you think public statements and behavior are covered by some sort of HIPPA obligations?

Quote:

I don't know about the actions of professional groups in this regard.

Maybe that should be left to them, then.

Presumably they do know.
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Old 24th April 2017, 03:40 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I remain underwhelmed to the point of mild disgust by "professionals" who publicly diagnose peopl they haven't examined.

Just like astronomers! How could those "professionals" claim to know anything about star systems they've never actually been to? Disgusting.

"You can't make an accurate diagnosis without personal interaction," seems to be a pretty common protest. What I've never seen, however, is an explanation of why this must be the case, especially with regard to Trump. Do you, Cleon, have one? Anyone else? Because there's already plenty to examine when it comes to Trump. What crucial piece is missing that a personal interview would provide?

Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
It's a different ball game when you are a politician.

What is it about being a politician that you think naturally makes the "inexperienced" into babbling idiots? There is a significant difference between not being able to talk your way around a question and not being able to communicate your thoughts in a coherent manner. I doubt that difference is the person's current occupation.

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Old 24th April 2017, 03:47 PM   #179
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
I don't know whether diagnosis requires personal interviews, but I do think publicly discussing diagnoses is an issue, whether the person is your patient or not.

I don't know about the actions of professional groups in this regard.
Technically, patient confidentiality only applies to health care providers revealing things they learned about Trump in the course of their role as his doctor.

At least one professional organization weighed in after a past candidate was called insane by professional psychiatrists and the organization said it would be unethical to give such opinions going forward.

But times change. A POTUS in a wheelchair would no longer be a medical secret, nor would the illness Kennedy had be kept secret these days. National interest and the fact Trump's behavior is on public display would negate the ethical restraint and instead psychiatrists might consider it their ethical duty to warn the public what to expect from a POTUS with a pathological personality disorder.

I don't get it why a faction of people on this forum are miffed that some psychiatrists would weigh in on Trump's behavior issues. If forumites were making the argument, Trump's disorder was not relevant to him doing his job as POTUS, I could see the rationale. Were that the case, one could say it was no more than medical voyeurism.

But that's not the case. Those with expertise regarding pathologic personality disorders should weigh in.

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Old 24th April 2017, 03:53 PM   #180
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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
I remain underwhelmed to the point of mild disgust by "professionals" who publicly diagnose peopl they haven't examined.
Can you say just which exam they need to perform in person to complete the diagnosis?

Seems people in the forum who cannot answer the above question refuse to consider they may be wrong, and no additional in-person exam is needed.

In fact, in the case of a pathologic narcissistic personality disorder, observing the patient in his/her natural setting is by far more diagnostic than an in-office test or interview.
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Old 24th April 2017, 03:55 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Do you think public statements and behavior are covered by some sort of HIPPA obligations?
No, I'm speaking about my personal moral judgment, rather than particular laws or professional codes of conduct (though, this does seem to violate the "Goldwater rule", but whether that's a formal code or not, I don't know).


Quote:
Maybe that should be left to them, then.

Presumably they do know.
Oh? You never make moral judgments if there are professional bodies that are relevant?

Sorry, but that is not my tendency. I do tend to form opinions while still being ready to defer judgment to the appropriate authorities (in this case, medical ethicists more so than professional organizations, in my opinion).
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Old 24th April 2017, 04:15 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
No, I'm speaking about my personal moral judgment, rather than particular laws or professional codes of conduct (though, this does seem to violate the "Goldwater rule", but whether that's a formal code or not, I don't know).




Oh? You never make moral judgments if there are professional bodies that are relevant?

Sorry, but that is not my tendency. I do tend to form opinions while still being ready to defer judgment to the appropriate authorities

Like you, I am ready to defer judgement to the appropriate authorities. But when I choose to disagree with them I at least try to be able to articulate the reasons for that disagreement.

Quote:
(in this case, medical ethicists more so than professional organizations, in my opinion).

Why do you feel that medical ethicists and professional organizations constitute two separate and distinct groups?
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Old 24th April 2017, 05:04 PM   #183
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Yet one more example of Trump's pathology:

Donald Trump Brags That He Got “Higher Ratings” Than 9/11 In His First 100 Days
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Old 24th April 2017, 05:26 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Next he'll brag that it also will wind up killing more people than 9/11.
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Old 24th April 2017, 05:38 PM   #185
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Like you, I am ready to defer judgement to the appropriate authorities. But when I choose to disagree with them I at least try to be able to articulate the reasons for that disagreement.




Why do you feel that medical ethicists and professional organizations constitute two separate and distinct groups?
Some medical ethicists might work for professional organizations. Some certainly do not.

By the way, from Wikipedia's entry on the Goldwater rule.
The Goldwater rule is the informal name given to Section 7.3 in the American Psychiatric Association's (APA) code of ethics,[1] which states it is unethical for psychiatrists to give a professional opinion about public figures they have not examined in person, and from whom they have not obtained consent to discuss their mental health in public statements.[2] It is named after presidential candidate Barry Goldwater.[3][4]
So, there you go. An ethical judgment about exactly this sort of situation from a relevant professional organization.
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Old 24th April 2017, 05:59 PM   #186
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
So, there you go. An ethical judgment about exactly this sort of situation from a relevant professional organization.
An organisation of professional psychiatrists, not ethicists : its judgement is potentially self-serving. Not to say transparently so.

I don't regard it as unethical to make an honest judgement based on expertise and a mass of evidence. It's not self-evidently so by any means.

The mass of evidence provided by Trump consistently points to narcissistic personality disorder. A lot of people might want to know that. They can tell there's something wrong with the man - everybody can see that - but not precisely what.
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Old 24th April 2017, 06:03 PM   #187
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Originally Posted by CapelDodger View Post
An organisation of professional psychiatrists, not ethicists : its judgement is potentially self-serving. Not to say transparently so.
Quadraginta was asking about the opinion of a professional organization. This is the relevant ethics rule of a relevant professional organization.

(I'm not sure why you think this rule is self-serving. Looks like self-policing to me. What do you have in mind?)

I don't know if this rule was written by a professional ethicist or not.
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Old 24th April 2017, 06:34 PM   #188
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Said ethics position statements are not like Ten Commandments or the Constitution. They do not constitute law either.

Position statements are opinion by committee.

Two things they are not: 1) absolute under any and all circumstances, and 2) eternal.

The rule made sense after the Goldwater matter. It does not make sense today as applied to Trump.

Consider just the concepts: a mentally ill POTUS is elected. Does the psychiatric community have a duty to inform the public or provide information that might be relevant/pertinent/important to the nation?
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Old 24th April 2017, 06:57 PM   #189
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Whether it's ethical is one question, whether it's professional is another. I would say it's unprofessional for a psychiatrist to publicly volunteer a diagnosis on someone whom they have never examined. If nothing else doing so suggests their profession is either quackery holding no true diagnostic value, or else it's so easy a branch of science that you can do it yourself based on TV clips!

If people who happen to be psychiatrists wish to express political or personal opinions, that's fine. But if they want to simultaneously claim authority of their profession while violating the basic tenets and methodologies of that profession...well, who on earth would take them seriously in this, or in actual professional matters?
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Old 24th April 2017, 07:54 PM   #190
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Yet one more example of Trump's pathology:
As far as I'm concerned, Trump has the same "pathology" as any career politician. He just wears it on his sleeve. I find it kind of refreshing.
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Old 24th April 2017, 07:56 PM   #191
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As far as I'm concerned, Trump has the same "pathology" as any career politician. He just wears it on his sleeve. I find it kind of refreshing.
nonsense.
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Old 24th April 2017, 08:25 PM   #192
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Whether it's ethical is one question, whether it's professional is another. I would say it's unprofessional for a psychiatrist to publicly volunteer a diagnosis on someone whom they have never examined. If nothing else doing so suggests their profession is either quackery holding no true diagnostic value, or else it's so easy a branch of science that you can do it yourself based on TV clips!

If people who happen to be psychiatrists wish to express political or personal opinions, that's fine. But if they want to simultaneously claim authority of their profession while violating the basic tenets and methodologies of that profession...well, who on earth would take them seriously in this, or in actual professional matters?
Nonsense, professional and ethical are intertwined.

You can moan all you what that you don't think psychiatrists should do [fill in the blank]. At the end of the day, they know their own profession better than you do and obviously they disagree or they wouldn't have made public statements.

And it's nonsense that you believe you can assert they violate the basic tenets and methodologies of that profession. Upon what knowledge and authority do you base this wisdom?

Dunning Kruger comes to mind. Sorry, but as a professional in the medical field, I don't find you assertions about professionalism and ethics holding water. You heard somewhere it was wrong/unethical/unprofessional and you decided to adopt that POV. Ain't nothing more than that to see here folks.
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Old 24th April 2017, 08:32 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Said ethics position statements are not like Ten Commandments or the Constitution. They do not constitute law either.
The APA can reprimand, suspend or expel a psychiatrist who violates the ethical code. In a suspension or expulsion, the APA reports the action it takes to the public and to state licensing boards. The state board can then sanction the psychiatrist as it sees fit -including revoking a license. So ethics opinions do have the weight of the law behind them.

Quote:
Position statements are opinion by committee.

Two things they are not: 1) absolute under any and all circumstances, and 2) eternal.
This is true. However, the guideline in question is quite clear, in force right now and is applicable beyond the political world. Here is the APA's commentary:

https://www.psychiatry.org/psychiatr...ractice/ethics (You have to download the APA Commentary on Ethics in Practice pdf)
Quote:
A psychiatrist may render a professional opinion about an individual
after an appropriate clinical examination and accompanying waiver of confidentiality and should not do so unless the examination and waiver have occurred. When a personal examination has not been performed and when a psychiatrist is asked for a professional opinion about a person in light of public attention, a general discussion of relevant psychiatric topics — rather than offering opinions about that specific person — is the best means of facilitating public education...Moreover, labeling public figures cavalierly with psychiatric conditions, based on limited or indirect clinical knowledge is not consistent with this approach and undermines public trust in the profession of psychiatry.
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The rule made sense after the Goldwater matter. It does not make sense today as applied to Trump.
Why not? How does it not make sense in these days to discourage psychiatrists from attacking people that they haven't even examined or interviewed personally under the guise of giving their expert opinion? This isn't an impersonal matter like climate change.

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Consider just the concepts: a mentally ill POTUS is elected.
How do you know he/she is insane? Maybe you just vehemently disagree with them and want to find a way to discredit them. How is the public supposed to know the difference between genuine scientific opinion or simple personal attack?
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Does the psychiatric community have a duty to inform the public or provide information that might be relevant/pertinent/important to the nation?
No. They have a duty to uphold the ethics of their profession.
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Old 24th April 2017, 08:34 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
As far as I'm concerned, Trump has the same "pathology" as any career politician. He just wears it on his sleeve. I find it kind of refreshing.
It's a mistake to see Trump as a career politician, or really any kind of politician. He has spent his entire life running and promoting his family business. A career politician -- someone who has run for and held multiple offices of increasing responsibility -- has a basic understanding of how government works. Trump has demonstrated a fundamental ignorance of the role and limitations of the presidency, and a deep contempt ("so-called judges" etc.) for the foundations of our society.
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Old 24th April 2017, 08:40 PM   #195
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
.....
How do you know he/she is insane? Maybe you just vehemently disagree with them and want to find a way to discredit them. How is the public supposed to know the difference between genuine scientific opinion or simple personal attack?
.....
Disagreement about policy is one thing. Trump's ignorance about matters of fact, his insistence on making provably false statements (we used to call them "lies"), his rambling, bizarre interview responses and tweets, etc. etc., raise basic questions about his relationship to reality that have nothing to do with his opinions about health insurance and corporate taxes.

As cited above:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.f550b112d19a

Last edited by Bob001; 24th April 2017 at 08:42 PM.
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Old 24th April 2017, 08:43 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
How do you know he/she is insane? Maybe you just vehemently disagree with them and want to find a way to discredit them. How is the public supposed to know the difference between genuine scientific opinion or simple personal attack?
Because he behaves like a crazy person.
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Old 24th April 2017, 08:44 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
Disagreement about policy is one thing. Trump's ignorance about matters of fact, his insistence on making provably false statements (we used to call them "lies"), his rambling, bizarre interview responses and tweets, etc. etc., raise basic questions about his relationship to reality that have nothing to do with his opinions about health insurance and corporate taxes.
Politicians always say things that are provably false. Some of them are eccentric, etc. None of that means they are insane. There are a number of explanations for Trump's behavior that don't involve mental illness.

No one who hasn't conducted a clinical examination of Trump is in a position to make an assessment of his mental status. This includes a few pissed off, liberal psychiatrists.
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Old 24th April 2017, 08:48 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Politicians always say things that are provably false. Some of them are eccentric, etc. None of that means they are insane. There are a number of explanations for Trump's behavior that don't involve mental illness.
No, normal politicians do not behave like Trump does.

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No one who hasn't conducted a clinical examination of Trump is in a position to make an assessment of his mental status. This includes a few pissed off, liberal psychiatrists.
How do you know? Are you a shrink?
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Old 24th April 2017, 08:53 PM   #199
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Politicians always say things that are provably false. Some of them are eccentric, etc. None of that means they are insane. There are a number of explanations for Trump's behavior that don't involve mental illness.

No one who hasn't conducted a clinical examination of Trump is in a position to make an assessment of his mental status. This includes a few pissed off, liberal psychiatrists.
1/ That's the "everybody does it" argument. It's just not true that every politician, or even most politicians, make the kind of wild, irrational, irresponsible statements that Trump makes every day.

2/ "Insane" is not a clinical term. The argument is that Trump displays characteristics consistent with a number of psychiatric disorders that would raise doubts about his -- or anyone's -- fitness to hold the office of president, based on his pubic remarks and behavior that go back 40+ years. I repeat, much more is known about Trump than any shrink could expect to learn about any ordinary person.
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Old 24th April 2017, 09:01 PM   #200
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
No, normal politicians do not behave like Trump does.
Before Trump, I've heard the same criticisms right here on this forum about any number of politicians. Basically, the line of argument goes, "I disagree with them so they must be crazy!" That's the USA Politics subforum in a nutshell. Something tells me that the only "normal" politicians are the ones we agree with.


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How do you know? Are you a shrink?
Nope. But I am able to read their code of ethics and understand it. Seems pretty clear to me that what these shrinks did violates those ethics.
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