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Tags donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 24th April 2017, 09:07 PM   #201
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Before Trump, I've heard the same criticisms right here on this forum about any number of politicians. Basically, the line of argument goes, "I disagree with them so they must be crazy!" That's the USA Politics subforum in a nutshell. Something tells me that the only "normal" politicians are the ones we agree with.
They (or at least I) didn't mean that they have mental disorders.

Trump is obviously mentally disordered. And I don't say that because I disagree with him. I say that because he displays symptoms of mental disorders.

I disagree with Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan. I do not think they are mentally ill. Just complete scumbags.

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Nope. But I am able to read their code of ethics and understand it. Seems pretty clear to me that what these shrinks did violates those ethics.
Even if it is unethical it doesn't mean they can't look at the huge amount that is known about Trump (way more than any shrink would learn about a patient from an exam) and come to the obvious conclusion that he is mentally disordered. It just means they shouldn't say it in public.

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Old 24th April 2017, 09:09 PM   #202
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
1/ That's the "everybody does it" argument. It's just not true that every politician, or even most politicians, make the kind of wild, irrational, irresponsible statements that Trump makes every day.
Like I said, I've seen the accusations on this forum for years. It rings a little hollow. I get that you guys don't like Trump. Hell, I don't like him either. But I don't feel the need to label every politician that I don't like as "mentally ill." I'd rather focus on the issues rather than an irrelevant and distracting discussion about their mental state.

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2/ "Insane" is not a clinical term.
Suffering from a mental illness. Whatever floats your boat.
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The argument is that Trump displays characteristics consistent with a number of psychiatric disorders that would raise doubts about his -- or anyone's -- fitness to hold the office of president, based on his pubic remarks and behavior that go back 40+ years. I repeat, much more is known about Trump than any shrink could expect to learn about any ordinary person.
There's a difference between a public persona and the real person. There's a difference between watching someone in a media interview with Howard Stern, for example, and conducting a clinical interview with that person. That's why the ethical code exists.
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Old 24th April 2017, 09:10 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
There's a difference between watching someone in a media interview with Howard Stern, for example, and conducting a clinical interview with that person. That's why the ethical code exists.
Oh, so Trump just pretends to be crazy.
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Old 24th April 2017, 09:36 PM   #204
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The APA can reprimand, suspend or expel a psychiatrist who violates the ethical code. In a suspension or expulsion, the APA reports the action it takes to the public and to state licensing boards. The state board can then sanction the psychiatrist as it sees fit -including revoking a license. So ethics opinions do have the weight of the law behind them.
Oh for pity's sake! What nether region did you pull that out of?

It's a professional organization, not a regulating body.

Needless to say you don't have a clue which unethical actions might affect one's license or who would report such action. And you obviously don't understand what a position paper is or how it affects or doesn't affect one's practice.

Try sex with your patients or diverting narcotics. Gross negligence, maybe, depending on the circumstances and you won't find the APA making any such report. They'd not only be afraid of being sued, it's not one of their functions.

And expel one from the organization for voicing a political opinion? I think not.

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Old 24th April 2017, 10:07 PM   #205
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Trump clearly falls outside the norms of behavior- it's the reason why so many people voted for him.
Moderates wanted to believe that he was perfectly sane, playing a slightly deranged person - they didn't consider that he might be totally bonkers, trying to play an only slightly deranged person.
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Old 25th April 2017, 12:12 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by logger View Post
Its funny to see mentally ill shrinks give a diagnosis of Trump. The left is truly mentally ill.
[/quote]I've made plenty of mistakes in life, which is why I go after leftist ideology and not people personally. People need to be allowed to fail, not held to a standard of perfection. Your side has taken this type of discourse to a new level. I hope my side is up to the challenge of meeting it. [/quote]

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Old 25th April 2017, 12:41 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Politicians always say things that are provably false. Some of them are eccentric, etc. None of that means they are insane. There are a number of explanations for Trump's behavior that don't involve mental illness.

No one who hasn't conducted a clinical examination of Trump is in a position to make an assessment of his mental status. This includes a few pissed off, liberal psychiatrists.

You're certain it is only a few?

And that they are all liberals?
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Old 25th April 2017, 01:01 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Like I said, I've seen the accusations on this forum for years. It rings a little hollow. I get that you guys don't like Trump.

There is a world of difference between a bunch of people on an internet forum using hyperbole to express themselves, and medical professionals offering carefully considered diagnoses within the area of their expertise in spite of the danger it might present to their careers.

It's more than a little bit dishonest for you to try and pretend that the two are the same.

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Hell, I don't like him either. But I don't feel the need to label every politician that I don't like as "mentally ill." I'd rather focus on the issues rather than an irrelevant and distracting discussion about their mental state.

<snip>

I don't believe this is even faintly a matter of labeling every politician someone doesn't like as mentally ill. I have to wonder where you hang out that it actually happens. Maybe a little hyperbole on occasion.

Trump is not by any means falling within any standard expressions of behavior.

He has created his own, new level of disconnect with reality that even the most rabid of traditional politician has been unable to equal.

Do you think it is all an act?
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Old 25th April 2017, 01:07 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Like I said, I've seen the accusations on this forum for years. It rings a little hollow. I get that you guys don't like Trump. Hell, I don't like him either. But I don't feel the need to label every politician that I don't like as "mentally ill." I'd rather focus on the issues rather than an irrelevant and distracting discussion about their mental state.
You are in serious denial: Neither Trump nor the reaction to Trump are like anything in my lifetime. As someone who thinks it is an issue that the most powerful man in the world is either delusional or an extraordinarily brazen liar who constantly exhibits bizarre and irrational behavior, I'd like to hear your explanation for why you think that's irrelevant.
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Old 25th April 2017, 01:23 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
There are a number of explanations for Trump's behavior that don't involve mental illness.
Perhaps. Why don't you provide some?

Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
...I get that you guys don't like Trump. Hell, I don't like him either. But I don't feel the need to label every politician that I don't like as "mentally ill."
1. it's remarkable how many Trump supporters say this.
2. Maybe you can present some examples from the past... 6 months(?) where people on the forum have posed a serious or even semi-serious accusation about the mental health of either the other GOP presidential candidates, or even Trump appointees. I'm not sure you will find it that easy to prove that people on this forum feel the need to label every politician that I don't like as "mentally ill."
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Old 25th April 2017, 01:42 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Sorry, but as a professional in the medical field, I don't find you assertions about professionalism and ethics holding water.
Congratulations on your acquisition of degrees in psychotherapy. That is quite a step up from nursing. You can rightly be proud of your achievement.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:02 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Nonsense, professional and ethical are intertwined.

You can moan all you what that you don't think psychiatrists should do [fill in the blank]. At the end of the day, they know their own profession better than you do and obviously they disagree or they wouldn't have made public statements.

And it's nonsense that you believe you can assert they violate the basic tenets and methodologies of that profession. Upon what knowledge and authority do you base this wisdom?

Dunning Kruger comes to mind. Sorry, but as a professional in the medical field, I don't find you assertions about professionalism and ethics holding water. You heard somewhere it was wrong/unethical/unprofessional and you decided to adopt that POV. Ain't nothing more than that to see here folks.
Thanks, you have demonstrated my point for me. I would find it difficult to imagine a more unprofessional diatribe.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:04 AM   #213
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Personally I always personally interview raccoons before I decide if they have rabies or not.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:06 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
And expel one from the organization for voicing a political opinion? I think not.
But it's not a political opinion they're expressing, it's a psychiatric one. They cannot have it both ways and simultaneously demand respect from the pulpit of their profession while also catagorizing it as a purely political opinion and therefore free speech without the constraints of professionalism.

Diagnosis without examination is unprofessional. Full stop.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:07 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
Personally I always personally interview raccoons before I decide if they have rabies or not.
Here's a photo of a raccoon and somebody's remarks about what they think the raccoon is thinking. Does it have rabies?
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:08 AM   #216
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Someone says something obviously correct and someone else says you can't say that because of the rules. Just another day at the academy.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:09 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
Someone says something obviously correct and someone else says you can't say that because of the rules. Just another day at the academy.
Do you know what science is? It's where you examine things before you declare the truth of them. The sun obviously revolves around the earth, you can see it. How stupid of anyone to study the matter!
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:11 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Do you know what science is? It's where you examine things before you declare the truth of them. The sun obviously revolves around the earth, you can see it. How stupid of anyone to study the matter!
Much more is known about Trump than any shrink would learn from examining a patient.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:12 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Here's a photo of a raccoon and somebody's remarks about what they think the raccoon is thinking. Does it have rabies?
I could tell if I had extensive video.

And, we have extensive video.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:17 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Do you know what science is? It's where you examine things before you declare the truth of them. The sun obviously revolves around the earth, you can see it. How stupid of anyone to study the matter!
How many courses/books on philosophy of science have you consumed? Give me a break. Clearly this is a matter of what constitutes a proper and reliable observation. If Trump went to a therapist he would be less honest than he was in his campaign speeches about what he really thinks, anyone who treats narcissists will tell you that... We have his behavior, reliable accounts of private behavior, the statements of long-time acquaintances, family and friends, all colored by their own biases and that is the professional job to be done. To say well a personal interview with him means relatively nothing, that's a fact. Everyone knows it, but, rules are rules. And they broke the rules. The academy really warms the soul doesn't it?
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:18 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
But it's not a political opinion they're expressing, it's a psychiatric one. They cannot have it both ways and simultaneously demand respect from the pulpit of their profession while also catagorizing it as a purely political opinion and therefore free speech without the constraints of professionalism.

Diagnosis without examination is unprofessional. Full stop.

Are you saying that there has been no examination? I suspect they've examined an awful lot of factors.

Or that any examination without the consent of the subject cannot produce a valid result?

Or that examination without being 'hands on' with the subject cannot produce a valid result?


I'm not sure how one would successfully diagnose a hostile subject as in any way mentally deficient if one cannot diagnose without the consent of the subject.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:22 AM   #222
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The rules are pretty much political posturing, oh we always use our expertise to comment on public matters, except for the most important public matters, we don't want to act too big for our britches, we are too transcendentally fair to do that! Posturing political nonsense of the worst kind while pretending not to be political... sad.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:24 AM   #223
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Eating a sandwich is not a political act. Keeping your mouth shut on a political matter is a political act. They are expressing their politics the other way and you call them unprofessional? What a stupid cult.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:26 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You can moan all you what that you don't think psychiatrists should do [fill in the blank]. At the end of the day, they know their own profession better than you do and obviously they disagree or they wouldn't have made public statements.
Yeah but one has to take their conclusions with a grain of salt since they didn't do an actual examination of the guy. It's informed (and credible) speculation, but it's still speculation.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:26 AM   #225
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Maybe we can have a compromise on this. Psychiatrists can not, accurately, declare Trump mentally ill because he has not been diagnosed. However, we can accept their declaration that Trump is exhibiting behaviors of a mentally ill person.

Personally, I think he is mentally ill because he exhibits such behavior. If he talks like he's unstable, and acts like he's unstable, he's probably unstable.

I doubt the psychiatrists are forming their opinions on partisan politics. If they did, I wonder why they never declared a POTUS mentally ill before. Trump is the first, except for maybe Reagan, who did prove to have a cognitive debilitating disease.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:30 AM   #226
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What the hell do people think a diagnosis is? They talk to the person, they talk to the family, they ask them pointed questions regarding their mental state and gauge the reactions. Hundreds of journalists have asked him and the people that know him the right questions. What you have to believe, and believe me, this is really, really funny to me, is that Trump would somehow answer differently in the hell has frozen over situation where he would actually talk to a shrink. This is such a big joke it has made my day. April 25th, 2017, yep, I won't forget this day, the day I finally accepted that my beloved academy is a laughingstock.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:31 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Thanks, you have demonstrated my point for me. I would find it difficult to imagine a more unprofessional diatribe.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:31 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
Maybe we can have a compromise on this. Psychiatrists can not, accurately, declare Trump mentally ill because he has not been diagnosed. However, we can accept their declaration that Trump is exhibiting behaviors of a mentally ill person.
Works for me.

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I doubt the psychiatrists are forming their opinions on partisan politics.
SCOTUS judges can, so I wouldn't put it past them.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:33 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post

Diagnosis without examination is unprofessional. Full stop.
/end thread
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:35 AM   #230
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This Thread is a witch.




It got better.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:37 AM   #231
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Must be tough sticking up for Trump while pretending not to stick up for Trump.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:39 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Diagnosis without examination is unprofessional. Full stop.
That would be true if the examination is for a physical ailment. But for the mental ailment we are speaking of (narcicism among other) I contend that you probably get as good a grasp at the person mental situation from recorded conversation where she does not know she is speaking to a psychiater, than when she does and is aware her mental health is being evaluated.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:40 AM   #233
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
/end thread
pffft, not using their expertise to comment would be unprofessional since there is no chance of a proper diagnosis and their job is to make the world a more mentally healthy place, not kowtow to *********** mind-bogglingly hoity-toity political mores. What do you say to that?
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:41 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Aepervius View Post
That would be true if the examination is for a physical ailment. But for the mental ailment we are speaking of (narcicism among other) I contend that you probably get as good a grasp at the person mental situation from recorded conversation where she does not know she is speaking to a psychiater, than when she does and is aware her mental health is being evaluated.
I guess one of the questions boils down to whether Trump is acting up his public persona. Without actually meeting him in private it'd be hard to tell.
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:42 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
Must be tough sticking up for Trump while pretending not to stick up for Trump.
I think it helps them sleep at night.

I wonder, is there a rule that says psychiatrists cannot give an opinion on the mental health of a person based on their behaviors, speeches, and other observations? Where is this rule written?

Why is it that these psychiatrists' diagnosis not valid, yet Republicans in government could diagnose Terri Schiavo based on a video?
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:45 AM   #236
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Old 25th April 2017, 04:59 AM   #237
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There must come a point, if behavior becomes erratic enough, for Trump to be positively diagnosed with some disorder.


Suppose he's found on the front lawn of the White house, clucking like a chicken and sincerely telling the world that his next one will be the best egg ever. At that point, would the stance still be 'no diagnosis without examination, let him keep doing it'?
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Some seem to think the UK leaving the EU is like Robbie leaving Take That.
In reality it's more like Pete leaving The Beatles.

We are lions, not tigers.
Turns out I don't know a lot about tigers.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:04 AM   #238
Tony Stark
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I don't like George W Bush. Absolutely terrible president.

I never thought he was mentally disordered.

The notion that people are saying that Trump is crazy just because we don't like him is laughable.

Last edited by Tony Stark; 25th April 2017 at 05:05 AM.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:06 AM   #239
Argumemnon
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
The notion that people are saying that Trump is crazy just because we don't like his laughable.
Considering how many people make this sort of accusation against people they don't like, it's not laughable. It might not apply to you, but it isn't far-fetched. Look at the sort of stuff that was thrown at Obama or Hillary.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:07 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
/end thread
nope.
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