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Tags donald trump , mental illness issues , psychiatry incidents , psychiatry issues , Trump controversies

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Old 25th April 2017, 05:08 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Considering how many people make this sort of accusation against people they don't like, it's not laughable. It might not apply to you, but it isn't far-fetched. Look at the sort of stuff that was thrown at Obama or Hillary.
Yeah, but Republicans will say anything.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:09 AM   #242
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Originally Posted by Joey McGee View Post
Must be tough sticking up for Trump while pretending not to stick up for Trump.
Who's sticking up for Trump? I'm sticking up for psychiatry. It's not a tool for attacking political opponents. It's a branch of medicine (and therefore science) meant to help the sick. It demeans the field to be misused in this fashion.

I despise Trump, too, but I'm not going to spoil everything that is good in order to fashion weapons to attack him. There seems to me to be ample evidence for unfitness for the job without needing armchair psychiatry as well.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:11 AM   #243
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Considering how many people make this sort of accusation against people they don't like, it's not laughable. It might not apply to you, but it isn't far-fetched. Look at the sort of stuff that was thrown at Obama or Hillary.
Of all the things i've seen flung at Obama and Hillary, mental illness is the least of them.

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Old 25th April 2017, 05:13 AM   #244
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I don't like George W Bush. Absolutely terrible president.

I never thought he was mentally disordered.

The notion that people are saying that Trump is crazy just because we don't like him is laughable.
Really? I've always thought Bush was crazy. Trump just strikes me as being ludicrously stupid and petulant.

I can venture such opinions because I'm not demanding they be respected with the weight of my professional authority, you'll note. I can also suggest that black holes are populated by angry ducks, whereas if I were an astrophysicist working at NASA it would be unprofessional for me to say that.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:13 AM   #245
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Who's sticking up for Trump? I'm sticking up for psychiatry. It's not a tool for attacking political opponents. It's a branch of medicine (and therefore science) meant to help the sick. It demeans the field to be misused in this fashion.

I despise Trump, too, but I'm not going to spoil everything that is good in order to fashion weapons to attack him. There seems to me to be ample evidence for unfitness for the job without needing armchair psychiatry as well.
Who says they are just doing it to attack him?

Have you ever considered that it really is their professional opinion that Trump is mentally ill? And that they believe that it is important that people know this considering that he is the president of the United States?
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:16 AM   #246
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Really? I've always thought Bush was crazy. Trump just strikes me as being ludicrously stupid and petulant.

I can venture such opinions because I'm not demanding they be respected with the weight of my professional authority, you'll note. I can also suggest that black holes are populated by angry ducks, whereas if I were an astrophysicist working at NASA it would be unprofessional for me to say that.
Bush's biggest problem was he listened to people like Darth Cheney. That's not a symptom of mental illness.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:18 AM   #247
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
I think it helps them sleep at night.

I wonder, is there a rule that says psychiatrists cannot give an opinion on the mental health of a person based on their behaviors, speeches, and other observations? Where is this rule written?
It's the Goldwater Rule from the APA.
On occasion psychiatrists are asked for an opinion about an individual who is in the light of public attention or who has disclosed information about himself/herself through public media. In such circumstances, a psychiatrist may share with the public his or her expertise about psychiatric issues in general. However, it is unethical for a psychiatrist to offer a professional opinion unless he or she has conducted an examination and has been granted proper authorization for such a statement.
Quote:
Why is it that these psychiatrists' diagnosis not valid, yet Republicans in government could diagnose Terri Schiavo based on a video?
I don't know anyone here who is defending Republican actions back then. Perhaps a few of our resident conservatives would defend it, but they haven't here.

Let me be clear: no way in hell that any congressman, with or without an MD, knew more about Schiavo than her attending physicians.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:19 AM   #248
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Bush's biggest problem was he listened to people like Darth Cheney. That's not a symptom of mental illness.
It's the paintings.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:20 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
There must come a point, if behavior becomes erratic enough, for Trump to be positively diagnosed with some disorder.


Suppose he's found on the front lawn of the White house, clucking like a chicken and sincerely telling the world that his next one will be the best egg ever. At that point, would the stance still be 'no diagnosis without examination, let him keep doing it'?
Yes, because we need the eggs.

(I'm sure I've been beaten to this punchline, no pun intended.)
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:23 AM   #250
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Who says they are just doing it to attack him?

Have you ever considered that it really is their professional opinion that Trump is mentally ill? And that they believe that it is important that people know this considering that he is the president of the United States?
It may be their opinion but that opinion is not a professional one unless they have examined him. Until then it's at best a professional guess.

What is your profession? Surely whatever it is there are matters within it that you would require study before pronouncing your professional opinion.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:28 AM   #251
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
It may be their opinion but that opinion is not a professional one unless they have examined him. Until then it's at best a professional guess.

What is your profession? Surely whatever it is there are matters within it that you would require study before pronouncing your professional opinion.
They probably know more about Trump than they do people who are actually their patients.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:38 AM   #252
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Yeah, but Republicans will say anything.
Don't be like logger, now. It's a tendency of people because of bias, not political affiliation.

Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
Of all the things i've seen flung at Obama and Hillary, mental illness is the least of them.

eta - except from logger.
I didn't mean literally the same thing. But they were accused of a number of things because they were on the "wrong" side of the political spectrum. You know, I almost put that in my post because I half expected someone to post what you did, but decided not to because I expected people to get the point. As usual my naiveté got the better of me.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:41 AM   #253
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
Much more is known about Trump than any shrink would learn from examining a patient.
I keep seeing this point put forward, but I am not sure why. Do you believe these shrinks are going through hundreds of hours of video footage before forming their opinion on Trump? For example -

Quote:
“Worse than just being a liar or a narcissist, in addition he is paranoid, delusional and grandiose thinking and he proved that to the country the first day he was President. If Donald Trump really believes he had the largest crowd size in history, that’s delusional,”
A statement on crowd size is proof he's delusional? And I am suppose to believe this guy is forming his opinion only after dedicating the time to go through the huge amount public information about Trump?

I am not even arguing with the diagnosis, just this optimistic view of the work ethic of professionals that agree with your opinion.


Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Nonsense, professional and ethical are intertwined.

You can moan all you what that you don't think psychiatrists should do [fill in the blank]. At the end of the day, they know their own profession better than you do and obviously they disagree or they wouldn't have made public statements.

And it's nonsense that you believe you can assert they violate the basic tenets and methodologies of that profession. Upon what knowledge and authority do you base this wisdom?

Dunning Kruger comes to mind. Sorry, but as a professional in the medical field, I don't find you assertions about professionalism and ethics holding water. You heard somewhere it was wrong/unethical/unprofessional and you decided to adopt that POV. Ain't nothing more than that to see here folks.
What kind of random nonsense is this? Is your qualifications as a nurse give your opinion more weight than the APA? You know, the collection of professionals with expertise in this specific field, that have stated it is wrong/unethical/unprofessional. The vast majority still work within the confines of that rule, including at the specific event mentioned. Only the organizer went as far as to bend/break it, not any other doctor on the panel itself. Why argue that the outlier of the group is the correct one, just because his opinion matches yours?

Dunning Kruger indeed.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:46 AM   #254
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
I keep seeing this point put forward, but I am not sure why. Do you believe these shrinks are going through hundreds of hours of video footage before forming their opinion on Trump? For example -



A statement on crowd size is proof he's delusional? And I am suppose to believe this guy is forming his opinion only after dedicating the time to go through the huge amount public information about Trump?

I am not even arguing with the diagnosis, just this optimistic view of the work ethic of professionals that agree with your opinion.

.
I know a whole crapload about Trump so it isn't hard for me to believe that other people do too.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:49 AM   #255
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Dr. John Gartner who founded Duty to Warn disagrees.

“This is definitely not a partisan effort. You know, I despised George Bush. It never occurred from me for a minute that he was mentally ill and I never heard from my colleagues that he was mentally ill. Yet, 41,000 of my colleagues have signed a petition saying that Donald Trump is mentally ill.”
Contradicting Iron Man's impression anyway.

I wonder how often it happens that any one single person is analysed and discussed by quite so vast a swathe of professionals. The argument will go back and forth as regards ethical standards of pronouncing their conclusion, but what are the chances of them being totally incorrect in the speculative diagnosis that Trump presents a real danger?

If their diagnosis is correct, it would be trivial to come up with plan to troll Trump into doing something spectacularly foolish. I have no doubt that plans like this already exist. I have very little doubt that they would work to some degree or other.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:49 AM   #256
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Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
It's the Goldwater Rule from the APA.
On occasion psychiatrists are asked for an opinion about an individual who is in the light of public attention or who has disclosed information about himself/herself through public media. In such circumstances, a psychiatrist may share with the public his or her expertise about psychiatric issues in general. However, it is unethical for a psychiatrist to offer a professional opinion unless he or she has conducted an examination and has been granted proper authorization for such a statement.
I see. Now, how about the psychologists who have chimed with the same opinion? The Goldwater Rule doesn't apply to psychologists.

There is also this from : https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywi.../#709182c364f3

Gartner said that the Tarasoff rule applies here. “I would argue that those mental health professionals who don’t speak up are being unethical,” he said. “They are not following the Tarasoff rule, not warning the public about the clear and present danger” Donald Trump poses.

Quote:

I don't know anyone here who is defending Republican actions back then. Perhaps a few of our resident conservatives would defend it, but they haven't here.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilywi.../#709182c364f3

There is an interesting opinion here about this: "Gartner said that the Tarasoff rule applies here. “I would argue that those mental health professionals who don’t speak up are being unethical,” he said. “They are not following the Tarasoff rule, not warning the public about the clear and present danger” Donald Trump poses."

Let me be clear: no way in hell that any congressman, with or without an MD, knew more about Schiavo than her attending physicians.
Perhaps, but Republicans seemed to believe so. A different topic, since hypocrisy is an accepted Republican virtue.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:50 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I didn't mean literally the same thing. But they were accused of a number of things because they were on the "wrong" side of the political spectrum. You know, I almost put that in my post because I half expected someone to post what you did, but decided not to because I expected people to get the point. As usual my naiveté got the better of me.
Perhaps you should have put it in your post so that we lesser intellects can keep up.
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Old 25th April 2017, 05:59 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
Contradicting Iron Man's impression anyway.
???

I said that I don't think that Bush is mentally ill.
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:00 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
???
I said that I don't think that Bush is mentally ill.
/Apologies!
It was tragicmonkey replying to you who thought he was crazy.
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:10 AM   #260
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Originally Posted by Tony Stark View Post
I know a whole crapload about Trump so it isn't hard for me to believe that other people do too.
You do understand my point though. The availability of information doesn't mean that it is being utilized. The sentence that I quoted by one of these doctors shows their opinion can be formed or cemented by a single statement.

Continuously stating 'vast amounts of information is available' on Trump does not change that for me.
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:18 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
Perhaps you should have put it in your post so that we lesser intellects can keep up.
Don't feel bad. I wasn't smart enough to put it in in the first place.
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:21 AM   #262
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
You do understand my point though. The availability of information doesn't mean that it is being utilized. The sentence that I quoted by one of these doctors shows their opinion can be formed or cemented by a single statement.

Continuously stating 'vast amounts of information is available' on Trump does not change that for me.
How do you know they haven't aren't aware of other information on Trump?

Trump's saying that he had the largest crowds ever is just an obvious example and something that happened on day one.
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:23 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by rdwight View Post
A statement on crowd size is proof he's delusional? And I am suppose to believe this guy is forming his opinion only after dedicating the time to go through the huge amount public information about Trump?
I understood that as being put forward as an example that he's delusional.
I'm not sure how you've arrived at a conclusion about how much time the person you quoted has spent studying Trump.
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:23 AM   #264
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41000 people are acting unethically
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:26 AM   #265
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Don't feel bad. I wasn't smart enough to put it in in the first place.
No. It was your faith in our (my) smarts that failed. By your own words.
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:27 AM   #266
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Originally Posted by TofuFighter View Post
No. It was your faith in our (my) smarts that failed. By your own words.
Yeah but my faith was due to my own lack of smarts. Stop trying to be dumber than me, dammit!
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:33 AM   #267
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I still want to know - if one cannot diagnose with examination and one cannot examine without consent, how are there people that have never consented to examination that have been given firm diagnoses of mental illness?


For the 'no diagnosis without examination' side of the argument, is there no point at which is words or behavior sufficiently concerning for something to be done about it?
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:52 AM   #268
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I'm definitely in the group that it is none of our business if he is mentally ill.
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Old 25th April 2017, 06:57 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm definitely in the group that it is none of our business if he is mentally ill.
You don't think mental illness could be a problem for a president?

You don't think the electorate should know this?
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Old 25th April 2017, 07:02 AM   #270
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You don't think mental illness could be a problem for a president?

You don't think the electorate should know this?
I absolutely don't think simply having any illness is a problem and I absolutely don't think the electorate should know.
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Old 25th April 2017, 07:12 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I absolutely don't think simply having any illness is a problem and I absolutely don't think the electorate should know.
Who said anything about "any" illness? Why did you just add that in the middle of the conversation?
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Old 25th April 2017, 07:12 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I'm definitely in the group that it is none of our business if he is mentally ill.
This is beyond the simple question of whether he has *some sort of* mental illness. The question is whether he has some sort of mental illness that would impair his ability to do what may be the most consequential single job on the planet in a way that doesn't create huge and unnecessary risk to the well being of the world as a whole.

Any factors that may impair the behavior of the person with the nuclear launch codes are absolutely, 100% our business.
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Old 25th April 2017, 07:14 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Who said anything about "any" illness? Why did you just add that in the middle of the conversation?
Because my stance applies to any medical illness, mental or physical.
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Old 25th April 2017, 07:15 AM   #274
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Because my stance applies to any medical illness, mental or physical.
Including sociopathy, for example? If a candidate for President is a dangerous lunatic, you don't think that's something people should know?
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Old 25th April 2017, 07:15 AM   #275
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post

Any factors that may impair the behavior of the person with the nuclear launch codes are absolutely, 100% our business.
I don't think so.
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Old 25th April 2017, 07:16 AM   #276
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
I don't think so.
You must be joking. The inability to do a job properly is the business of an employer, but not of the people who elect someone for public office?
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Old 25th April 2017, 07:17 AM   #277
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Including sociopathy, for example? If a candidate for President is a dangerous lunatic, you don't think that's something people should know?
No.

I'm​ worried that you called people with sociopathy "dangerous lunatics."
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Old 25th April 2017, 07:18 AM   #278
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Because my stance applies to any medical illness, mental or physical.
So let's say a President takes office knowing he has terminal, inoperable cancer and barring some impossible miracle, will be dead within a month of the inauguration.

You're saying that it is not the business of the American people to know that the person they have elected will be unable to serve and that there is no valid argument that they should know ahead of time that the Vice president will serve for the entirety of the term?
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Old 25th April 2017, 07:18 AM   #279
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
No.

I'm​ worried that you called people with sociopathy "dangerous lunatics."
I did no such thing. You might have noticed that the two sentences are separate.

And you're not "worried" for a second. Stop playing around.

But thanks for the answer. You think dangerous lunatics should be not only eligible for the position of most powerful person on the planet, but shielded from public knowledge of this face.

Bombs away!
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Old 25th April 2017, 07:18 AM   #280
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You don't think mental illness could be a problem for a president?

You don't think the electorate should know this?
Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
This is beyond the simple question of whether he has *some sort of* mental illness. The question is whether he has some sort of mental illness that would impair his ability to do what may be the most consequential single job on the planet in a way that doesn't create huge and unnecessary risk to the well being of the world as a whole.

Any factors that may impair the behavior of the person with the nuclear launch codes are absolutely, 100% our business.

Consider to whom you are addressing these comments.

Consider the probability of there being anything productive from the exchange.

Act accordingly.
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