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Tags JFK assassination , Kennedy conspiracies

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Old 31st May 2017, 09:22 AM   #121
MicahJava
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
No. You are misinterpreting the autopsy. Did you not suggest before there was something suspicious about the autopsy report being a third draft? Do you now accept those findings?
Considering all evidence with the damage to the brain, the pattern of fragments, and the trajectory required, can you try explaining how bullet could have entered the lower EOP location and exit the top-right side of the head? I'm thinking no. That's why you must rely on this "four inches higher" cowlick idea.
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Old 31st May 2017, 09:33 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The autopsy's location of the entry wound on the back of the head is incompatible with a single gunshot to the head from the sixth floor of the TSBD.
Where did another gun shot come from? Who took that other shot? With what weapon? Were any shell casings found? What caliber was the weapon? Who sold the weapon and when? Where did the other person go after taking the shot? What happened to the spent bullet?

These are all questions we have answers to for Oswald. What do you have?
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Old 31st May 2017, 09:34 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Considering all evidence with the damage to the brain, the pattern of fragments, and the trajectory required, can you try explaining how bullet could have entered the lower EOP location and exit the top-right side of the head? I'm thinking no. That's why you must rely on this "four inches higher" cowlick idea.
Where did the other person work? Who were they married to? What were their political leanings? Where did the other firearm come from? What was its country of origin? Where did that other person live?

These are all questions we have answers to for Oswald. What do you have?
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Old 31st May 2017, 09:37 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Considering all evidence with the damage to the brain, the pattern of fragments, and the trajectory required, can you try explaining how bullet could have entered the lower EOP location and exit the top-right side of the head? I'm thinking no. That's why you must rely on this "four inches higher" cowlick idea.
Yes. I believe the wound is higher than your proposal, because that is where the autopsy placed it, the WC testimony placed it, and it explains the full extents of the wound, including the damage to the brain.

You are arguing for a wound you admit is impossible because of the damage to the brain. You are LITERALLY championing the fact your own theory does not explain the evidence.

It also helps that I can see the wound right there in the photographs.
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Old 31st May 2017, 09:38 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Actually, my friend, I am the one supporting the autopsy's findings. If you disagree with the autopsy, have the gull the say it




Are you referring to the Associated Press newspaper clipping that Jack White had saved?
Holy crap. Do you mean the same Jack White who admitted he had no clue what photogrammetry was to the very same court?

Really?
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Old 31st May 2017, 09:42 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Actually, my friend, I am the one supporting the autopsy's findings. If you disagree with the autopsy, have the gull the say it
You have the "gull"? How amusing. Presumably you think that everything is yours.

Do I need to link the video?
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Old 31st May 2017, 09:48 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
And yet you provide no better explanation for how the bullets from Oswalds Gun left their fragments, and why no evidence of other bullets exist.
The fragments allegedly recovered from Kennedy's head and the limousine is not under discussion. The existence of an additional bullet to the base of the head is.

How did this fragment get in the upper neck area, represented as that little dot on the level of the right side of the chin?



This is Ceril Wecht's description of this fragment:

"There is the appearance of a very small particle on the right side of the mandible near the midline. No density corresponding to this location is seen on the lateral x-ray. Its location could be in the region of the spinal column and thus relate to the President's back wound."

http://jfk.hood.edu/Collection/Weisb.../Item%2001.pdf

Do you think that's really a bullet fragment? If so, how did it get there?

Last edited by MicahJava; 31st May 2017 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 31st May 2017, 09:50 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Tomtomkent View Post
Yes. I believe the wound is higher than your proposal, because that is where the autopsy placed it, the WC testimony placed it, and it explains the full extents of the wound, including the damage to the brain.

You are arguing for a wound you admit is impossible because of the damage to the brain. You are LITERALLY championing the fact your own theory does not explain the evidence.

It also helps that I can see the wound right there in the photographs.
You are either confused or are trying to confuse others. I am the one advocating for the wound location endorsed by the autopsy report, autopsy doctors, and the Warren Commission. You are the one saying it was four inches higher than where those entities placed it. I hope this clears confusion for you in the future.

Last edited by MicahJava; 31st May 2017 at 09:55 AM.
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Old 31st May 2017, 09:58 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
https://i.imgur.com/qu2yKFS.gifNOTICE: My first question posted on this thread has yet to be answered.https://i.imgur.com/qu2yKFS.gif

To all cowlickers: If the red spot on the BOH photographs is supposed to be an entry wound int he scalp, why is the scalp being pulled back? Wouldn't the doctors choose to photograph the scalp entry wound in it's original location to avoid confusion or misinterpretation?

With the scalp being pulled back in the BOH photographs, the red spot has the appearance of being situated somewhere between the location of the EOP and the depressed cowlick fracture.
Still no convincing reason to think the red spot on the photographs is an entry wound.

Last edited by MicahJava; 31st May 2017 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 31st May 2017, 10:15 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Actually, my friend, I am the one supporting the autopsy's findings. If you disagree with the autopsy, have the gull the say it
I am supporting that there is one and only head wound with an entrance from the rear exit the front and taking a good deal of tissue and bone with it.
Quote:

Are you referring to the Associated Press newspaper clipping that Jack White had saved?
I didn't/won't look at any link that has Jack White's analysis, if the links do not contain his analysis, then I missed reading them.
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Old 31st May 2017, 10:20 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
https://i.imgur.com/qu2yKFS.gif Still no convincing reason to think the red spot on the photographs is an entry wound. https://i.imgur.com/qu2yKFS.gif
No evidence it is not.
No evidence of any bullet fired by any rifle, other than Oswalds.
No evidence of any entry wound to the skull other than the one you deny.
No explanation for why the only damage to the brain is consistent with the wound you deny!
No evidence of additional head wounds in the film footage of the assassination.
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Old 31st May 2017, 11:18 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by bknight View Post
You consider yourself a "real truth seeker"?
Yes, this is the strategy of trying to seize the moral high ground and drown out the reasonable criticisms of one's opponents. Very common in CT. It also justifies an endless, unproductive process of "seeking": no obligations to the burden of proof, or the evidence, or rational argumentation. Just the "truth."
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Old 31st May 2017, 11:27 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by OKBob View Post
Yes, this is the strategy of trying to seize the moral high ground and drown out the reasonable criticisms of one's opponents. Very common in CT. It also justifies an endless, unproductive process of "seeking": no obligations to the burden of proof, or the evidence, or rational argumentation. Just the "truth."
From Vincent Bugliosi's 53 reasons for Oswald's guilt:

Quote:
13. Although in his interrogation on Friday afternoon, November 22, Oswald said he was having lunch on the first floor of the Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination, during Sunday’s interrogation Oswald slipped up and placed himself on the sixth floor at the time of the assassination, making him the only employee of the Book Depository Building who placed himself on the sixth floor, or was placed there by anyone else, at the time we know an assassin shot Kennedy from the sixth floor. In his Sunday-morning interrogation he said that at lunchtime, one of the “Negro” employees invited him to eat lunch with him and he declined, saying, “You go on down and send the elevator back up and I will join you in a few minutes.” He said before he could finish whatever he was doing, the commotion surrounding the assassination took place and when he “went downstairs,” a policeman questioned him as to his identification, and his boss stated that he was one of their employees. The latter confrontation, of course, refers to Officer Marrion Baker, in Roy Truly’s presence, talking to Oswald in the second-floor lunchroom within two minutes after the shooting. Where was Oswald at the time the Negro employee invited him to lunch, and before he descended to the second-floor lunchroom? The sixth floor. Charles Givens testified that around 11:55 a.m., he went up to the sixth floor to get his jacket with cigarettes in it and saw Oswald on the sixth floor. He said to Oswald, “Boy, are you going downstairs…it’s near lunchtime.” He said Oswald answered, “No, sir. When you get downstairs, close the gate to the elevator.” There is another very powerful reason why we can know that Oswald, at the time of his confrontation with Baker in the second-floor lunchroom, had just come down from the sixth floor, not up from the first floor, as he claimed. It is an accepted part of conspiracy dogma to believe what Oswald told Fritz during his interrogation—that he had been eating lunch in the lunchroom on the first floor at the time of the shooting and had walked up to the second floor to get a Coke from the Coke machine just before Baker called out to him.
Edited by Agatha:  Trimmed for rule 4


So Oswald is guilty because he (allegedly) drank a Coke instead of a Dr. Pepper? Does that sound like something a real truth-seeker would even try to say and write in their book?

Last edited by Agatha; 31st May 2017 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 31st May 2017, 11:55 AM   #134
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
From Vincent Bugliosi's 53 reasons for Oswald's guilt:



So Oswald is guilty because he (allegedly) drank a Coke instead of a Dr. Pepper? Does that sound like something a real truth-seeker would even try to say and write in their book?
Nice strawman, but don't you know that everything goes better with Coke?

LHO's is guilty, and you still have yet to explain why your sideshow act pin-the-headwound jive means anything in the larger context of the established evidence
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Old 31st May 2017, 03:00 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
So Oswald is guilty because he (allegedly) drank a Coke instead of a Dr. Pepper? Does that sound like something a real truth-seeker would even try to say and write in their book?
Non-sequitur. But, no, Oswald is not guilty or innocent because of one detail, though CT types revel in bellwether fallacies. His guilt is highly probable because of all the other pieces of evidence that piled up against him--all of which Bugliosi cites. Get off Coke.

Last edited by OKBob; 31st May 2017 at 03:03 PM.
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Old 31st May 2017, 03:15 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Yeah, nobody said they saw two separate head shots. Gunshots to the head don't always look like the movies.
Again, there are enough Youtube videos of people getting shot in the head to get a base-line for what to expect.

The only movies which matter are the Zapruder and the Nix footage - NEITHER shows a second head-shot.
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Old 31st May 2017, 03:18 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by pgwenthold View Post
On the contrary, I am of the opinion that Oswald could only have done it alone. You start talking about this with others, and it gets around quickly, and the next thing you know, the whole thing is exposed.

The only way to pull it off is to be completely alone.
I get that...NOW...
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Old 31st May 2017, 03:29 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
The autopsy's location of the entry wound on the back of the head is incompatible with a single gunshot to the head from the sixth floor of the TSBD.
No.

Again, you have no access to all of the autopsy photographs and x-rays (nobody does), so you have no concrete data to base a conclusion upon, certainly one which runs counter to the facts. After-the-fact testimony is borderline speculation, especially if the testimony comes years or decades later. Cherry-picking testimony of pathologists only digs your hole deeper as it shows your lack of understanding.

Finally, the head wound is almost exclusive to the 6.5x52mm, 160 grain, round fired from a rifle whose barrel has a 1:8 gain-twist. Of all the smoking guns in the history of smoking guns the Oswlad's Carcano should have come with a neon sign he could have hung in the 6th floor window.
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Old 31st May 2017, 03:34 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
From Vincent Bugliosi's 53 reasons for Oswald's guilt:


Edited by Agatha:  Trimmed for rule 4


So Oswald is guilty because he (allegedly) drank a Coke instead of a Dr. Pepper? Does that sound like something a real truth-seeker would even try to say and write in their book?
Sometimes it helps to read the stuff you cut & paste first before posting.

He says that Oswald claimed to have lunch on the first floor, and then bought a soda on the second floor, but all of the other TSBD employees said he was on the 6th floor.

Look, I admire someone who swings for the fences, but not at a football game.
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Old 31st May 2017, 03:36 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
https://i.imgur.com/qu2yKFS.gif Still no convincing reason to think the red spot on the photographs is an entry wound. https://i.imgur.com/qu2yKFS.gif
It's matted hair.
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Old 31st May 2017, 04:33 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
So Oswald is guilty because he (allegedly) drank a Coke instead of a Dr. Pepper?
It's so obvious from even a casual reading of the quote you posted that Posner is saying no such thing, that it looks like you're trying to portray yourself as a liar. Have you honestly deluded yourself so much that you believe the nonsense you're spouting?

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Old 31st May 2017, 05:04 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
https://i.imgur.com/qu2yKFS.gif Still no convincing reason to think the red spot on the photographs is an entry wound. https://i.imgur.com/qu2yKFS.gif
Certainly not to a dyed in the wool CTist who sees this as his religion.

It is to rational people.
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Old 31st May 2017, 05:13 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
It's so obvious from even a casual reading of the quote you posted that Posner is saying no such thing, that it looks like you're trying to portray yourself as a liar. Have you honestly deluded yourself so much that you believe the nonsense you're spouting?

Dave
We would really have a conspiracy if Vincent Bugliosi and Gerald Posner are one in the same, but I'll assume you made an error.

Mod shortened my quote because of copyright. I've posted the link to the Reclaiming History ebook several times, go ahead and search "Dr. Pepper" in his book, he literally uses Oswald drinking a Coke instead of a Dr. Pepper as evidence of his guilt. Meanwhile in reality, we can never know for sure how true the Oswald-Baker-Truly encounter is. Even if the encounter really did happen, the details are so fuzzy that the "Coca-Cola" in Oswald's hands could've really been a Dr. Pepper. "Coke" is, after all, a common noun to describe all soft drinks. And both are a brown liquid in a glass bottle with a red label.

But either way, who cares? Bulio probably just put it in his book to justify some of his wasted time spent on tracking down which soft drink machines were on which floor of the TSBD.
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Old 31st May 2017, 05:16 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
No.

Again, you have no access to all of the autopsy photographs and x-rays (nobody does), so you have no concrete data to base a conclusion upon, certainly one which runs counter to the facts. After-the-fact testimony is borderline speculation, especially if the testimony comes years or decades later. Cherry-picking testimony of pathologists only digs your hole deeper as it shows your lack of understanding.

Finally, the head wound is almost exclusive to the 6.5x52mm, 160 grain, round fired from a rifle whose barrel has a 1:8 gain-twist. Of all the smoking guns in the history of smoking guns the Oswlad's Carcano should have come with a neon sign he could have hung in the 6th floor window.
Apparently not. Over a dozen experts, including a couple who were there at the autopsy, have examined the full collection of autopsy films and either didn't agree with the cowlick entry theory or just didn't happen to identify any particular entry wound.
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Old 31st May 2017, 05:20 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Certainly not to a dyed in the wool CTist who sees this as his religion.

It is to rational people.
You know what else is dyed? The autopsy face sheet, dyed in specks of the President's blood, and dyed in the ink of Dr. Humes and Dr. Boswell's illustrations of the President's wounds while his body was laying right beside them, of which was verified by Dr. Finck and the written signature of President's personal physician Dr. Burkley. It shows the small head wound low in the occipital area, don't you know?

Last edited by MicahJava; 31st May 2017 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 31st May 2017, 05:30 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
We would really have a conspiracy if Vincent Bugliosi and Gerald Posner are one in the same, but I'll assume you made an error.
That's correct. My mistake.

Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I've posted the link to the Reclaiming History ebook several times, go ahead and search "Dr. Pepper" in his book, he literally uses Oswald drinking a Coke instead of a Dr. Pepper as evidence of his guilt.
One very small piece of evidence in the consilience of evidence, of course, however much you would like to imply that it was a significant piece of evidence without which the case would be significantly weakened. What makes you think you're fooling anyone any more?

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Old 31st May 2017, 06:30 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
You know what else is dyed? The autopsy face sheet, dyed in specks of the President's blood, and dyed in the ink of Dr. Humes and Dr. Boswell's illustrations of the President's wounds while his body was laying right beside them, of which was verified by Dr. Finck and the written signature of President's personal physician Dr. Burkley. It shows the small head wound low in the occipital area, don't you know?
So what is your comprehensive theory to explain a consilience of evidence?
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Old 31st May 2017, 06:31 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
We would really have a conspiracy if Vincent Bugliosi and Gerald Posner are one in the same, but I'll assume you made an error.

Mod shortened my quote because of copyright. I've posted the link to the Reclaiming History ebook several times, go ahead and search "Dr. Pepper" in his book, he literally uses Oswald drinking a Coke instead of a Dr. Pepper as evidence of his guilt Meanwhile in reality, we can never know for sure how true the Oswald-Baker-Truly encounter is. Even if the encounter really did happen, the details are so fuzzy that the "Coca-Cola" in Oswald's hands could've really been a Dr. Pepper. "Coke" is, after all, a common noun to describe all soft drinks. And both are a brown liquid in a glass bottle with a red label.

But either way, who cares? Bulio probably just put it in his book to justify some of his wasted time spent on tracking down which soft drink machines were on which floor of the TSBD.
And if I understand it correctly, you're asserting that because the soda in question wasn't correctly identified it constitutes exculpatory evidence?

If I remember correctly neither Posner or Bugliosi hung their hats on that single factoid. I seem to remember some stuff in there about the rifle, the paper trail connecting it to LHO and some other behavior related to a murder of a DPD officer and the subsequent arrest of LHO with that murder weapon in hand. Somehow in all of that, the pin-the-soda narrative got lost.

When will you explain how your pin-the-headwound jive means anything in the context of the established evidence. You're inability to answer that question does not bolster your position.
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Old 31st May 2017, 10:30 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Apparently not. Over a dozen experts, including a couple who were there at the autopsy, have examined the full collection of autopsy films and either didn't agree with the cowlick entry theory or just didn't happen to identify any particular entry wound.
Not really.
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Old 31st May 2017, 10:36 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
You know what else is dyed? The autopsy face sheet, dyed in specks of the President's blood, and dyed in the ink of Dr. Humes and Dr. Boswell's illustrations of the President's wounds while his body was laying right beside them, of which was verified by Dr. Finck and the written signature of President's personal physician Dr. Burkley. It shows the small head wound low in the occipital area, don't you know?
It's just approximate.

If you've ever seen the sheets from Nicole Brown and Ron Goldman you'd understand how basic they are compared with the actual wounds.

We have the ONE headshot on film, we know what position the President's head was in at the moment of impact. Everything lines up. You're arguing a false point on data you're unqualified to assess based on zero information due to restrictions on viewing autposy materials. Worse, all of your sourcing is from CT sites and not independent, objective work.
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Old 1st June 2017, 10:56 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by Axxman300 View Post
Not really.
Oh?
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Old 1st June 2017, 11:26 AM   #152
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Oh?
So?
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Old 1st June 2017, 11:43 AM   #153
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
Oh?
I suppose for a CTist, this is about as coherent as it's going to get.

You really have nothing that addresses a consilience of evidence? Nothing at all?
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Old 1st June 2017, 11:59 AM   #154
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
You really have nothing that addresses a consilience of evidence? Nothing at all?
CT doesn't have much patience with or interest in consilience. CT is committed to anomaly-hunting. By definition, that rules out the much more (to them) mundane activity of acknowledging the great preponderance of evidence converging from different domains. Inherent in much CT is a hero complex, a kind of virtuous vigilantism that finds explanatory power in evidentiary exceptionalism (the one witness who contradicts six others). A priori, CT rejects consensus (agreement of analysts) and consilience (agreement of data) on the ground that the fix was in, investigators and commissioners were tainted, evidence was altered, the media are hard-wired for easy, status-quo-supporting answers. CT poses as the great defense lawyer, ever able to produce the one oddity that will cause the jury to acquit. But their implicit paradigm of a criminal trial is just another begged question, on the level of methodology. And the jury remains unconvinced.
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Old 1st June 2017, 12:56 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by OKBob View Post
CT doesn't have much patience with or interest in consilience. CT is committed to anomaly-hunting. By definition, that rules out the much more (to them) mundane activity of acknowledging the great preponderance of evidence converging from different domains. Inherent in much CT is a hero complex, a kind of virtuous vigilantism that finds explanatory power in evidentiary exceptionalism (the one witness who contradicts six others). A priori, CT rejects consensus (agreement of analysts) and consilience (agreement of data) on the ground that the fix was in, investigators and commissioners were tainted, evidence was altered, the media are hard-wired for easy, status-quo-supporting answers. CT poses as the great defense lawyer, ever able to produce the one oddity that will cause the jury to acquit. But their implicit paradigm of a criminal trial is just another begged question, on the level of methodology. And the jury remains unconvinced.
LNers, on the other hand, don't know to recognize a problem where there is one.
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Old 1st June 2017, 01:38 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
LNers, on the other hand, don't know to recognize a problem where there is one.
Have you identified all of the problems with your comprehensive scenario that addresses a consilience of evidence?
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Old 1st June 2017, 02:13 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
LNers, on the other hand, don't know to recognize a problem where there is one.
You are so wrong on that one.

I once had a guy assert that because he had a piece of paper in his hand, he couldn't have committed the criminal act I observed him commit.

That's about a half step away, at best, from citing the soda pop controversy as a discussion point in this thread.
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Old 1st June 2017, 02:28 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Have you identified all of the problems with your comprehensive scenario that addresses a consilience of evidence?
He's avoided it so far.

No reason to act reckless and address the established evidence - that would only **** up a perfectly good CT talking point.
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Old 1st June 2017, 03:58 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by RoboTimbo View Post
Have you identified all of the problems with your comprehensive scenario that addresses a consilience of evidence?
I don't know, maybe you could say what you think about that fragment in the upper neck that Cyril Wecht identified?
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Old 1st June 2017, 04:27 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by MicahJava View Post
I don't know
When will you know? You do have a comprehensive theory that incorporates all of your loose ends along with a consilience of evidence, don't you?
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