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Old 26th July 2017, 03:59 AM   #1
jonesdave116
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Mod Info This is a continuation from here, and as is usual, the split point was arbitrary. Participants are free to copy & paste from the previous iteration[s] of the thread.
Posted By:Agatha








As has been pointed out by RC,, the flaring mentioned by Talbott is (presumably) to do with an increase in the non-existent electrical woo that he believed (surely he can't still believe it?) causes the jets at comets.
We already knew before Rosetta that the jets aren't any kind of electric woo. I point the interested reader to some of the papers on the Hartley 2 mission. CO2 gas and ice, was the outcome in that particular case. So, Sol discussing particular aspects of perfectly mainstream science, regarding what happens in a cometary coma during a CME, is a totally pointless discussion. Interesting, but totally unrelated to any of the woo dreamed up by T & T.
For what it's worth, we know that solar wind heavy ions are responsible for the x-ray emission seen at comets. So, an increase in the solar wind flux should see an increase in x-ray production. Want to call that a flare? Fine, if you must, but it's a perfectly mainstream one. The whole of the sunward coma will be compressed. There has been a paper on this. Again, very interesting, but nothing to do with EU woo.
Given how vague the predictions of Talbott were, it is hard to know exactly what he was on about. Which is the whole ethos of EU; keep it as vague as possible, so that you can later claim to be right. A bit like tabloid psychics.
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Old 26th July 2017, 04:21 AM   #2
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What Sol needs to concentrate on are the core claims of T & T, regarding their lunatic 'electric comet' idea. That is;

1) The jets are electrical discharges to (from?) the nucleus: Either way, that has been 100% debunked by observation and measurement. Or lack thereof.

2) The comet is a rock: Yet again, 100% disproven. By the impact at Tempel 1, and the results from MIRO and CONSERT at 67P.

3) The comet charges up due to a radial electric field around the Sun: Zero evidence of any such thing.

4) The H2O at comets is not H2O, but is OH, that stupid scientists mistake for H2O (I kid you not!): Well that was dead long before T & T wrote their horrific poster on electric comets. From 1985, in fact. And many observations since. Definitively, unarguably, 100% H2O. Solid and gaseous.

5) Said OH will be caused by solar wind H+ striking O- ions, which have been electrically machined from the non-existent rock of the comet (deary me): Not going to happen. SW H+ is far too energetic to combine with anything. There is naff all O- for it to combine with anyway, even if it were possible. And, when you do the sums, it turns out that even if every H+ ion was somehow involved in production of OH (or H2O, or magic fairy dust, whatever), then there ain't anywhere near enough of it to account for even 1 litre of water production. By many orders of magnitude. So, all in all, a really dumb idea. And very unscientific. Which is not at all surprising, given who dreamed it up.

So, Sol, how do you think all that has gone? Not well, really, eh? Console yourself by having another look at all those pretty pictures from Hartley 2, back in 2010, of all that fluffy ice floating around the comet. And then ask yourself, "why are we still discussing this woo?"
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Old 26th July 2017, 05:59 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Tusenfem says no, comets do not "flare" with the arrival of a CME.

I think the term "flare" may need to be defined because the comet most certainly responded to the CME and I'd say it in fact flared from it's "normal" state to a more active (electrically speaking) state.
No there was no "flare", it was just the CME arriving, compressing the magentic field, the higher density of SW particles interacting with the neutrals (ionization) and the ions (charge exchange) and other processes.

Has absolutely noting to do with T's flaring electrically speaking.
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Old 26th July 2017, 08:47 PM   #4
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Thumbs down Sol88 : The persistent delusion that there are images of comets that are rocks

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
As imaged by ROLIS and CIVA?
27 July 2017 Sol88: The persistent and irrelevant delusion that there are images of comets showing that they are rocks.
ROLIS and CIVA were cameras on the Philae lander. During the decent they took images of a comet nucleus made up of ices and dust.
Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
The model here is that the surface of comets initially consist of a mixture of ices and dust. Sublimation when comets get close to the Sun form a layer of weakly cohesive dust on the nucleus surface.
A layer of dust was detected by the Philae lander. Underneath that layer of dust was a layer of ice. The MUPUS instrument that you know about found that this ice layer was harder than expected.
The CONSERT instrument in the Rosetta orbiter used the Philae lander to measure the density of the interior of 67P which was not the density of rock as in your delusion as you already know.

We have been through EU abysmal ignorance of astronomical images leading to the delusion of "I see rocks in images of comes made of ices and dust" a few times before. for example, 16 February 2016 Sol88: a follower of the deluded Thunderbolts cult who has the insane idea that he can look at an image of a comet and tell what it is made of
That composition is hard to establish from images is illustrated by Ziggurat's earlier post I've asked this of EU advocates before, I'm going to give it another shot. Here are two photographs. What kind of material are we looking at in each picture?

I am surprised that we did not see that delusion applied to jonesdave116's image in this post a few days ago on of Tempel 1! Look at all of the "rocks" on the surface ! We would see yet again denial that Deep Impact ejected water and dust. And ...
Two years and counting of fear of doing basic physics: 25 June 2015 Sol88: Use a impact calculator to calculate the size of the crater on a comet made of rock by the Deep Impact impactor.
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Old 26th July 2017, 09:20 PM   #5
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Question Sol88: Did the Stardust mission sample the subsurface composition of comet Wild 2

Originally Posted by Reality Check View Post
We also have Thornhill's now 12 year old () web page with lies about confirmed Deep Impact predictions
My previous analysis of the lies, etc. on this web page did not include the Stardust fantasies from Thornhill.

The "Subsurface composition" paragraph is several lies, starting with the title ! Let us see if Sol88 can understand this:
27 July 2017 Sol88: Did the Stardust mission sample the subsurface composition of comet Wild 2?
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Old 26th July 2017, 09:25 PM   #6
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Question Sol88: Where is the EU prediction of subsurface composition

27 July 2017 Sol88: Where is the EU prediction of subsurface composition in the "Subsurface composition" paragraph or linked web page?
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Old 26th July 2017, 09:45 PM   #7
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Question Sol88: What does a deluded denial of Solar System formation have to do with comets

27 July 2017 Sol88: What does a deluded denial of the formation of the Solar System have to do with the EU subsurface composition of comets
Their delusion is that planets whizz around the Solar System to match their fantasies.

We have had measurements of the subsurface composition of Tempel 1 since 2005 (the Deep Impact mission) and from 2017 there is 67P (Rosetta mission).
The ages of the planets and Sun match, i.e. they formed together.
Planets have not "remained in their present orbits ever since". The Moon was probably formed by a planet colliding with the Earth. The Nice model has Jupiter starting close to the Sun and migrating outward.
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Old 26th July 2017, 11:40 PM   #8
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From the @Rosetta_RPC tweet:
A paper on the expanding ionosphere of the comet

Vertical struct of the near-surf expanding ionosphere of comet 67P probed by Rosetta by Heritier et al. in MNRAS without any EC woo :-)
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Old 27th July 2017, 04:32 PM   #9
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New Comet: C/2017 O1 ASAS-SN Takes Earth by Surprise
Quote:
On a long term parabolic orbit probably measured in the millions of years, O1 ASAS-SN has an orbit inclined 40 degrees to the ecliptic, and reaches perihelion 1.5 AU from the Sun just outside the orbit of Mars on October 14th. This is most likely Comet C/2017 O1 ASAS-SN’s first passage through the inner solar system.
So in the EU delusion, a comet that has a period of millions of years and thus last visited the inner solar system millions of years ago (before the existence of human beings) was blasted off the Earth some thousands of years ago as reported in human myths !
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Old 27th July 2017, 11:40 PM   #10
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Quote:
The Electric Comet Theory Part III - Let's Go Round Again
Do we really need to?????
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Old 27th July 2017, 11:52 PM   #11
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Then to be more constructive, some of the latest Rosetta papers:

Marshall et al.: Spatially resolved evolution of the local H2O production rates
of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko from the MIRO instrument on Rosetta


Gunell et al.: Ion acoustic waves at comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko - Observations and computations

Hoang et al.: The heterogeneous coma of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko
as seen by ROSINA: H2O, CO2, and CO from September 2014 to February 2016


Skorov et al.: Is near-surface ice the driver of dust activity on 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

Then there are lots more papers in the ADS data base.

There is also the EPSC meeting in September with 2 cometary sessions:
Comets: Observations, laboratory simulations and models Oral session
Comets: Observations, laboratory simulations and models Poster session

What do we know and what don’t we know following the cessation of the operational phase of the Rosetta mission Oral session
What do we know and what don’t we know following the cessation of the operational phase of the Rosetta mission Poster session
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Old 30th July 2017, 04:56 PM   #12
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An interesting line from he EU conference woo:
Quote:
few if any “dirty snowball” comets;
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/201...17-homepage-2/

Strange that, eh? Few? So, they still think 'dirty snowballs' are possible? Wow. Mainstream gave that up a while ago. Shame that these people are still basing their unscientific nonsense on Whipple's model from the 1950's. Having said that, they still think it is possible. Weird. Wish they'd make their minds up. Come on Wal, what is it that you actually believe, you old charlatan? So how are you going to spin this? I've got an idea; given that all of the comets that have been visited, and all of the comets that have been spectroscopically investigated by instruments that can detect H2O have detected H2O, why not start your woo with comets that have never been visited, nor probed by IR or sub-mm? Good place to start for a conman, yes?
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Old 30th July 2017, 06:18 PM   #13
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To put that woo in more context :
Quote:
Speakers will not be projecting popular ideas and mathematical contrivances into an imagined future. EU2017 will call for science minus the fiction. No Big Bang, no dark matter, no black hole singularities, no neutron stars, no thermonuclear core of the sun, no planets on clockwork orbits for billions of years; few if any “dirty snowball” comets; and no claim whatsoever that comets and asteroids trace to the primitive origins of the solar system (one of the more popular fictions).
All sorts of idiocy in the Thunderbolts dogma.
  • The evidence for the Big Bang is overwhelming, e.g. the CMB temperature, black body spectrum and power spectrum.
  • The evidence for dark matter is very strong with many independent lines of evidence.
  • Black hole singularities are a simple consequence of the known laws of physics, i.e. nothing we know can stop their formation.
    In reality this is Thunderbolts idiocy that black holes do not exist. But that does not depend on the singularities in GR which are expected to vanish when QM is added. If there is matter with enough density a black hole will form, with or without a singularity.
  • "no neutron stars" is really delusional when we have observed neutron stars since 1967.
  • "no thermonuclear core of the sun" is abysmally ignorant about basic astronomy.
    Basic astronomy: A stable star needs a balance between gravity and pressure. That needs an interior where pressure and temperature increases with depth. That leads to conditions at the core of a star where thermonuclear reactions have to happen. We have observed the neutrino flux produced by that fusion.
    This may be the repeated idiocy of the solved solar neutrino problem + neutrino oscillations do not exist.
  • "no planets on clockwork orbits for billions of years"
    At last - simple ignorance rather than delusions!
    The Nice model has Jupiter starting close to the Sun and migrating outward. Planetary migration is a standard part of the formation of planetary systems.
    We do not have "clockwork orbits" as in fixed orbits. Interactions change the orbits.
    This is probably the Thunderbolts idiocy of believing in planets whizzing around to fit with what they imagines myths say they do, e.g. Venus erupting from Jupiter, Saturn moving around, etc.
  • The comet delusion is that only a few and maybe no comets are made of ices and dust.
    Over 60 years of comet observations show that assertion is abysmally deluded about comets. No comet has been measured to have a density of rock. Deep Impact did not hit rock and ejected water and dust. Then there is the Rosetta mission.
  • A lie about "one of the more popular fictions".
    The scientific evidence is that "comets and asteroids trace to the primitive origins of the solar system".
    Meteorites are dated to be a bit younger than the Sun, like the Earth and Moon.
    Comets can have periods of millions of years, i.e. that is a minimum age for comets.
    Some comets have hyperbolic orbits so we see them just once. That means that they have a origin in a existing reservoir of bodies, e.g. the Oort cloud.
    No comet has an orbit that originates in the inner solar system at the Earth or other planet as in the Thunderbolts delusion.
    Stardust collected dust from a comet that are consistent with material from the early solar system, including possible interstellar dust particles.
    One of the Thunderbolts lies seems to be that Stardust confirmed their delusion that comets are rock blasted from planets. However nothing characteristic of planets was detected - no basalt, granite, limestone, sandstone, etc.

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Old 30th July 2017, 06:48 PM   #14
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Quote:
Speakers will not be projecting popular ideas and mathematical contrivances....
Lol. No, we won't see anything mathematical. Ever. How many electrons to power the Sun? Simple maths. Where are they? Do they have an associated magnetic field? What strength is it? What happens when it inevitably encounters the outflowing IMF? All these questions, and more, will be totally ignored by the Velikovskian woo merchants during their totally irrelevant conference. Hey guys, here's a thought; how about doing some science, eh? Been about 30 years of this garbage now, hasn't it? Anybody else thinking that they should have got further than "it's electric!"? Prawns.
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Old 30th July 2017, 07:40 PM   #15
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[quote=jonesdave116;11939521]
Originally Posted by jonesdave116
Quote:
Speakers will not be projecting popular ideas and mathematical contrivances....
Lol. No, we won't see anything mathematical. Ever. [snip] Anybody else thinking that they should have got further than "it's electric!"? Prawns.
Absolutely. I find this idea that mathematics, somehow, can't represent reality, or is inferior to qualitative layman's descriptions, fascinating. Posters may remember Micheal Mozina (now banned), who nicely encapsulated this sort of view in a couple of statements:
  • "Don't trust the math, trust the science"
  • "math bunnies"
(the latter in response to people referring to his repeated pareidolia as "seeing bunnies").

Thing is, we need the mathematics to get it right; otherwise we'd be still doing astrology. (Oh, wait, most people are ).

Seems to me that most of these people, if they can't understand the math, assume there's something wrong with the math, not them - even when their own skills are demonstrably lacking.
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Old 1st August 2017, 05:00 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
An interesting line from he EU conference woo:
https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/201...17-homepage-2/

Strange that, eh? Few? So, they still think 'dirty snowballs' are possible? Wow. Mainstream gave that up a while ago. Shame that these people are still basing their unscientific nonsense on Whipple's model from the 1950's. Having said that, they still think it is possible. Weird. Wish they'd make their minds up. Come on Wal, what is it that you actually believe, you old charlatan? So how are you going to spin this? I've got an idea; given that all of the comets that have been visited, and all of the comets that have been spectroscopically investigated by instruments that can detect H2O have detected H2O, why not start your woo with comets that have never been visited, nor probed by IR or sub-mm? Good place to start for a conman, yes?

Quote:
Conclusions. In the framework of the presented model, which can be considered common in terms of assumptions and physical
parameters in the cometary community, the dust removal by a gas drag force is not a plausible physical mechanism. The sublimation
of not only water ice, but also of super-volatile ice (i.e., CO) is unable to remove dust grains for illumination conditions corresponding
to 1.3 AU. A way out of this impasse requires revision of the most common model assumption employed by the cometary community.
Skorov et al.: Is near-surface ice the driver of dust activity on 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

So JD116, what is the mainstream model?
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Old 1st August 2017, 06:53 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Skorov et al.: Is near-surface ice the driver of dust activity on 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

So JD116, what is the mainstream model?
Well, having read that paper some months ago, I'm not sure what they are suggesting. Unless I'm being thick, or they were being excessively cryptic, I didn't see an alternative suggestion. Probably best to email the author for clarification. Perhaps they were suggesting that the smaller dust grains are due to a distributed source in the coma from larger particles containing volatiles. The paper is referenced in this preprint:
Seasonal Mass Transfer on the Nucleus of Comet 67P/Chuyumov-Gerasimenko
Keller, H. U. et al. (Skorov is a co-author)
https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1707/1707.06812.pdf

What it will not involve is any of the nonsense I mentioned in the post further up:

Quote:
1) The jets are electrical discharges to (from?) the nucleus: Either way, that has been 100% debunked by observation and measurement. Or lack thereof.

2) The comet is a rock: Yet again, 100% disproven. By the impact at Tempel 1, and the results from MIRO and CONSERT at 67P.

3) The comet charges up due to a radial electric field around the Sun: Zero evidence of any such thing.

4) The H2O at comets is not H2O, but is OH, that stupid scientists mistake for H2O (I kid you not!): Well that was dead long before T & T wrote their horrific poster on electric comets. From 1985, in fact. And many observations since. Definitively, unarguably, 100% H2O. Solid and gaseous.

5) Said OH will be caused by solar wind H+ striking O- ions, which have been electrically machined from the non-existent rock of the comet (deary me): Not going to happen. SW H+ is far too energetic to combine with anything. There is naff all O- for it to combine with anyway, even if it were possible. And, when you do the sums, it turns out that even if every H+ ion was somehow involved in production of OH (or H2O, or magic fairy dust, whatever), then there ain't anywhere near enough of it to account for even 1 litre of water production. By many orders of magnitude. So, all in all, a really dumb idea. And very unscientific. Which is not at all surprising, given who dreamed it up.
As for what the mainstream model is; it is based upon observation and measurement from near and far. It changes, and has continued to do so, as more and more measurements and observations become available. That is the obvious way to do science. A model is proposed and is then tested against observation. As per Whipple. When observation suggests the model needs tweaking, it is tweaked. And so we get ever closer to understanding the whole of the complex behaviour of comets.
What we don't do is to dream up scientifically impossible woo, based upon nothing more than mythology, and suggest that it is a viable, scientific model.
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Old 1st August 2017, 02:28 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
Skorov et al.: Is near-surface ice the driver of dust activity on 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko

So JD116, what is the mainstream model?
Pardon my newbie question, but what I'm still wondering is what the 'Electric Comet Model' is. I've just finished reading a large chunk of the stuff on the 'thunderbolt' website as well as the threads on this very internationalskeptics forum, and apart some vague - and sometimes contradictory - claims at a strictly narrative/descriptive level, I've found nothing clear.

To me, it looks like philosophical talk. Was an EU-based comet model ever simulated on a computer, for example?

What's the point of asking others about their models if there is not even an EU-based one to discuss?
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Old 1st August 2017, 04:28 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by lauwenmark View Post
Pardon my newbie question, but what I'm still wondering is what the 'Electric Comet Model' is. I've just finished reading a large chunk of the stuff on the 'thunderbolt' website as well as the threads on this very internationalskeptics forum, and apart some vague - and sometimes contradictory - claims at a strictly narrative/descriptive level, I've found nothing clear.

To me, it looks like philosophical talk. Was an EU-based comet model ever simulated on a computer, for example?

What's the point of asking others about their models if there is not even an EU-based one to discuss?
Well, I see that this is your first post here, lauwenmark, so welcome.
And, yes, you've pretty much summed it up. There is no 'electric comet' model. Never has been. If you wish to read more of this scientifically illiterate nonsense, then I may be able to find a link; http://www.thunderbolts.info/pdf/ElectricComet.pdf
Please try to keep your sanity as you read that garbage. Not easy, I know. Essentially, the things you need to bear in mind, are the facts that neither of the idiots that came up with this woo are scientifically qualified. Certainly not in the relevant subject area. They tend to make stuff up. One of them is a bloke called David Talbott: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/David_Talbott
The other is a loon called Wallace Thornhill. Doesn't even rate a mention on Rational Wiki. Allegedly has a BSc in physics. Can't do maths. Can't do science. And they are both Velikovskian woo merchants. Bear that in mind, and you'll not go wrong
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Old 1st August 2017, 05:39 PM   #20
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Thumbs down Sol88: Confirms once again that he is arguing from a stance of abysmal ignorance

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
So JD116, what is the mainstream model?
Oh dear!
2 August 2017 Sol88: Confirms once again that he is arguing from a stance of abysmal ignorance about comets!
The mainstream model backed up by empirical evidence is that comets are made of ices and dust. There are a lot of other details. As new evidence is found the details change (this is called the scientific process) but the basics are not changed by the paper you cite. It is still deeply deluded to state that comets are rocks.

You cannot even remember a week ago! Or this could be the idiocy that pops up sometimes of asking everyone in a thread the same question to waste their time.
27 July 2017 Sol88: The delusion that comets are rocks is not supported by the delusion that a paper is about comets being rocks.
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Old 1st August 2017, 06:01 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by lauwenmark View Post
Pardon my newbie question, but what I'm still wondering is what the 'Electric Comet Model' is.
There is no real 'Electric Comet Model' !

There is whatever a Thunderbolts ("Electric Universe") person makes up when asked that question, web pages with vague and even incoherent assertions, crank books and even worse YouTube videos. They start with the debunked fantasies of Immanuel Velikovsky and add their delusions. My take on it:
We will lie about comparing myths (plural) to find common stories on astronomical events witnessed by humans in the last few thousand or 10 thousand years.
  • Venus erupted from Jupiter (a Greek myth borrowed by Romans).
  • Venus travelled to Earth and stopped its spin with no effect, e.g. the Moon retained it orbit, people did not undergo many g's of de-acceleration, noting fell over.
    This only a Hebrew story of the Sun stopping taken as poetic license by scholars. Electric magic is evoked to explain that there were no effects.
  • Venus restored exactly the same spin with no effects and only recorded by 1 people.
  • Venus passed by again to drop manna to Moses and his people.
    This only a Hebrew story. There is a bit of ignorance where Venus drops hydrocarbons (petrol!) rather than carbohydrates (food).
  • Venus comes back again to blast rocks from the surface of the Earth using electrical discharges and creates the comets.
    Big problem - comets are not rocks!
    Bigger problem - blasting to produce the number of observed comets would probably turn the surface of any planet into lava. To produce the number of objects in the sources of comets means stripping the entire crusts from planets.
The last is where Thunderbolts is a bit cowardly - it seems to be vague "electrical discharges between planets" rather than naming the culprits.

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Old 1st August 2017, 11:48 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
So JD116, what is the mainstream model?
If you would just actually read the Rosetta papers then you would know what the current mainstream model is. And no, it is not the long abandoned "dirty snowball", a term which for historical reasons keeps hanging around.

Several special issues of Science (31 July 2015, 23 January 2015), Astronomy & Astrophysics (vol 583, 2015), Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society (Vol 462, Issue Suppl_1, 2016) give enough reading material, and that is only the surface of what is being published.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 01:26 AM   #23
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So "Dirtysnowball" is out...

The new model is...based upon observation and measurement from near and far.????

Ok let's ask the new poster here, welcome lauwenmark.

What, at this time, is your understanding of the MAINSTREAM model of comets?

hint, the experts say the Dirtysnowball is dead and buried and the new model is...based upon observation and measurement from near and far.????

and read the papers and that's the new model.

Feel free to ask the "experts"

PS if you have not read the paper yet give Comets: looking ahead Michael F. A’Hearn a crack, see what ya reckon.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 01:26 AM   #24
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Ha! I just noticed in the reservations that Yuri Skorov is coming to visit my institute!
I will let him give a seminar.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 01:45 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
If you would just actually read the Rosetta papers then you would know what the current mainstream model is. And no, it is not the long abandoned "dirty snowball", a term which for historical reasons keeps hanging around.

Several special issues of Science (31 July 2015, 23 January 2015), Astronomy & Astrophysics (vol 583, 2015), Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society (Vol 462, Issue Suppl_1, 2016) give enough reading material, and that is only the surface of what is being published.

is it deep fried ice cream??
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"No, never electric discharges" [Tusenfem]

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Old 2nd August 2017, 01:52 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
Ha! I just noticed in the reservations that Yuri Skorov is coming to visit my institute!
I will let him give a seminar.

Great, can you ask him please what he meant by the statement
Quote:
A way out of this impasse requires revision of the most common model assumption employed by the cometary community
???

JD1116 is confused on the statement.
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"No, never electric discharges" [Tusenfem]

Give up. Your idiocy knows no bounds. The electric comet woo is dead. R.I.P. [Jonesdave116]
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:05 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
Ha! I just noticed in the reservations that Yuri Skorov is coming to visit my institute!
I will let him give a seminar.
I just went through his paper a couple more times. I also had a look at some of the other papers he referenced in there. The problem seems to come down to cohesiveness of the < 1mm sized dust particles. As suggested in another paper, the model suggests that such particles must come from the disintegration of larger aggregates in the coma, as gas drag cannot account for them. From what I remember, this is in keeping with the findings from GIADA, which finds that the dust is an agglomerate of ever smaller grains.

What drives the dust activity of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko?
Gundlach, B. et al.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1506.08545.pdf
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:05 AM   #28
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JD116, what are the most common model assumption employed by the cometary community they may need revision?
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"Goes without saying that nothing electrical happened." [Jonesdavid116]

"No, never electric discharges" [Tusenfem]

Give up. Your idiocy knows no bounds. The electric comet woo is dead. R.I.P. [Jonesdave116]
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:09 AM   #29
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OK, let's have a look at what T & T have to say about the dust;....................er, nothing. Except the bit where they confuse the sunlight reflected from jets of such material, and claim that it's an electrical discharge. Oh dear.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:11 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
I just went through his paper a couple more times. I also had a look at some of the other papers he referenced in there. The problem seems to come down to cohesiveness of the < 1mm sized dust particles. As suggested in another paper, the model suggests that such particles must come from the disintegration of larger aggregates in the coma, as gas drag cannot account for them. From what I remember, this is in keeping with the findings from GIADA, which finds that the dust is an agglomerate of ever smaller grains.

What drives the dust activity of comet 67P/Churyumov-Gerasimenko?
Gundlach, B. et al.
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1506.08545.pdf
and your blind to the contradictions???

Model it still fluffy dust covered solid ice??
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:13 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
JD116, what are the most common model assumption employed by the cometary community they may need revision?
Why don't you email the author? Then I wouldn't need to speculate. However, I will - the assumption that ALL the dust is in the coma is due to gas drag from the nucleus. Some of it (i.e. < 1mm) is more likely to be from disintegration of larger particles within the coma.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:16 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
and your blind to the contradictions???

Model it still fluffy dust covered solid ice??
Yes. Please point me to a finding that says otherwise. Start with GIADA. What did they find? Instead of writing nonsense, why don't you actually have the cojones to say what you mean. What contradictions? How does it work in your mind? With evidence to back it up, please.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:47 AM   #33
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Here, this didn't strain my research skills too much:

Quote:
Rosetta thus gives evidence for a significant amount of fluffy particles in the solid material ejected by comets.
Physical properties of dust particles in cometary comae: from clues to evidence with the Rosetta mission
Levasseur-Regourd, A. C. et al.
https://hal-insu.archives-ouvertes.f...11564/document

And:
DENSITY AND CHARGE OF PRISTINE FLUFFY PARTICLES FROM COMET 67P/CHURYUMOV–GERASIMENKO
Fulle, M. et al.
http://oro.open.ac.uk/44289/1/apjl_802_1_L12o.pdf

Lots of fluffy particles floating around. Apparently as unseen by electric comet advocates as the snowstorm of ice around Hartley 2.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 03:27 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
Yes. Please point me to a finding that says otherwise. Start with GIADA. What did they find? Instead of writing nonsense, why don't you actually have the cojones to say what you mean. What contradictions? How does it work in your mind? With evidence to back it up, please.
Oh, puhleese! jonesdave, that would require solly to do some actual reading and thinking ....
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Old 2nd August 2017, 03:47 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
Oh, puhleese! jonesdave, that would require solly to do some actual reading and thinking ....
Yes, true. Although it is possibly unfair to ask Sol to do any research, when the originators of this nonsense couldn't be bothered doing any themselves:

From 2006:
Quote:
But a much different vantage point on the water question is possible. When
astronomers view the comas of comets spectroscopically, what they actually
see is the hydroxyl radical (OH), which they assume to be a residue of water...
http://www.thunderbolts.info/pdf/ElectricComet.pdf

From 1986:
Quote:
We have reported the first definite detection of H20 in Halley's comet, and the first interpretable and unequivocal detection for any comet.
Bolding mine.

Detection of Water Vapor in Halley's Comet
Mumma, M. J. et al.
http://go.galegroup.com/ps/anonymous...mousEntry=true

ETA: Just to add that the above detection was from the Kuiper Airborne Observatory
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuiper...ne_Observatory
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Old 2nd August 2017, 08:38 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by lauwenmark View Post
Pardon my newbie question, but what I'm still wondering is what the 'Electric Comet Model' is. I've just finished reading a large chunk of the stuff on the 'thunderbolt' website as well as the threads on this very internationalskeptics forum, and apart some vague - and sometimes contradictory - claims at a strictly narrative/descriptive level, I've found nothing clear.

To me, it looks like philosophical talk. Was an EU-based comet model ever simulated on a computer, for example?

What's the point of asking others about their models if there is not even an EU-based one to discuss?
Welcome to the forum!

It is mostly lacking any data which supports it's views.
In a nut shell, it is the idea that bodies away from the sun acquire some electrical charge and then when they move to the inner solar system they interact with some other existing field and the coma is an electrical discharge.

The fact that does not work is something the EC proponents are oblivious to.

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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:08 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Dancing David View Post
Welcome to the forum!

It is mostly completely lacking any data which supports it's views.
In a nut shell, it is the idea that bodies away from the sun acquire some electrical charge and then when they move to the inner solar system they interact with some other existing field and the coma is an electrical discharge.

The fact that does not work is something the EC proponents are oblivious to.

FTFY.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:55 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by jonesdave116 View Post
FTFY.
Ha ha ha ha ha

Alot of there 'data' is just pictures and cramming square pegs in their imaginary theory
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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:57 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
and your blind to the contradictions???

Model it still fluffy dust covered solid ice??
So uh huh and why don't Apollo objects show comas?

remove the very large wooden object the size of a small city from thine eye...
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Old 2nd August 2017, 02:52 PM   #40
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Question Sol88: a delusion that science is not based on " observation and measurement..."?

Originally Posted by Sol88 View Post
The new model is...based upon observation and measurement from near and far.????
3 August 2017 Sol88: A delusion that science is not based on " observation and measurement from near and far"?

For lauwenmark:
Tthis thread is not about your knowledge of the mainstream and working comet model. Sol88 is using tactics we see from cranks of
  1. Wasting peoples time by asking them about irrelevant information.
    This thread is about the Electric Comet Theory which is the delusion that comets are rocks that were blasted off the Earth as witnessed by humans, by electric discharges between the Earth and Venus, comet jets are electrical discharges between the comet and the Sun, electrical discharge machining of the surface, etc.
  2. Sol88 is asking you about the mainstream in order to compare it to his delusion that comets are rocks, etc.
    Any issues with the mainstream become a fantasy of support for that delusion. That is the logical fallacy of false dichotomy. An issue with a model A is never support for a totally debunked theory (to the point it becomes delusional) B.

3 August 2017 Sol88: A repeated lie about a "Dirtysnowball" model which has never existed.
Sol88 has been repeating this delusion about comet descriptions for some time (years?)
The model of comets that has existed since the 1950's and still exists today is that comets are made of ices and dust as shown by their measured densities of less than that of water, etc.
Astronomers started with the expectation of ices dominating in an "average" comet. Average is in quotes because comets start with a lot of volatiles, lose a proportion of those volatiles with each visit to the Sun and eventually end up as not a comet any more. Thus the dirty snowball description.
Then along came the 2005 Deep Impact mission. The result of the impact was at least twice more dust (10 to 25 million kilograms) than water (5 million kilograms). This was the start of astronomers such as A'Herne in this press release describing comets as "snowy dirtballs".

I will address Sol88's next post here:
3 August 2017 Sol88: An implied lie about a "deep fried ice-cream" model which has never existed.
This is another description of comets.

Two years and counting of fear of doing basic physics: 25 June 2015 Sol88: Use a impact calculator to calculate the size of the crater on a comet made of rock by the Deep Impact impactor.
The parroting of the Thunderbolt cult ignorance, delusions and lies in this thread alone (continuation of a thread that is now 8 years of delusions from Sol88 and Haig!).
10th April 2015: The ignorance, delusions and lies in the Thunderbolts web site, videos, etc.

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