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Tags LGBT issues , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 1st August 2017, 10:18 AM   #1
Hercules56
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Transgender man gives birth

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...birth-son.html

Woman feels she is really a man.

Woman gets surgery, takes hormones, and lives like a man.

Now a transgender Man, "he" gets pregnant and gives birth to a healthy baby.

Someone please explain to me why I should be required to call this person a "man", even though "he" has become pregnant and gave birth to a child.
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Old 1st August 2017, 10:27 AM   #2
sir drinks-a-lot
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I guess it's a manner of context. Scientifically, you could build a pretty strong case that they're really a woman that feels like that are a man, or a woman that prefers to live as a man, or some such.

In polite company, it's probably better to use the pronoun "he" out of respect for the individuals choice.

It can seem strange at times - like you mentioned, this would leave you saying things like "he gave birth to a beautiful baby girl" which can sound rather awkward. But, at least in most cases with which I am familiar, most people know the "real" by birth gender of transgenders and just look past it. For example, a coworker of mine is a woman that was born as a man. Everyone knows this, even though they refer to the person as "her" or "she" and act as if she was a woman all along.
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Old 1st August 2017, 10:38 AM   #3
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What's next? We had Katelyn Jenner, boldly shattering myths about women's athletic abilities by becoming the first-ever woman to win the men's Olympic Decathlon. And now we have the spectacle of a man giving birth. It is indeed a brave new world!
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Old 1st August 2017, 10:41 AM   #4
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Old 1st August 2017, 12:48 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...birth-son.html

Woman feels she is really a man.

Woman gets surgery, takes hormones, and lives like a man.

Now a transgender Man, "he" gets pregnant and gives birth to a healthy baby.

Someone please explain to me why I should be required to call this person a "man", even though "he" has become pregnant and gave birth to a child.
Good manners are not 'required' of you. Just don't be surprised if people treat you differently when you are rude.
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Old 1st August 2017, 12:52 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
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Old 1st August 2017, 01:15 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Someone please explain to me why I should be required to call this person a "man", even though "he" has become pregnant and gave birth to a child.
You are? I'm not. Who requires this of you anyway?

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Old 1st August 2017, 02:30 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Good manners are not 'required' of you. Just don't be surprised if people treat you differently when you are rude.
I have read there are some municipalities that will charge you with sexual harrassment if you intentionally use the "wrong" pronoun when discussing a transgender employee or co-worker.

If transgender men can still become pregnant and bring a healthy child to term, its simply absurd for it to be a crime for me to refer to such person as a "she".

As far as I am concerned only a "she" can become pregnant and gestate a fetus.

Sorry for sounding "bigoted".
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Old 1st August 2017, 02:36 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I have read there are some municipalities that will charge you with sexual harrassment if you intentionally use the "wrong" pronoun when discussing a transgender employee or co-worker.
Read where? Is it a reliable source? Or just internet outrage bait?

Quote:
If transgender men can still become pregnant and bring a healthy child to term, its simply absurd for it to be a crime for me to refer to such person as a "she".
If it were a crime there would be a mention of that in a law. Can you cite such a law? Anywhere?

Quote:
As far as I am concerned only a "she" can become pregnant and gestate a fetus.
I'm sure everybody cares deeply about your feelings on these matters.

Quote:
Sorry for sounding "bigoted".
Are you also sorry for sounding like a jerk?
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Old 1st August 2017, 02:50 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm sure everybody cares deeply about your feelings on these matters.
To be fair, he's talking about definitions, not feelings.

Quote:
Are you also sorry for sounding like a jerk?
How is he sounding like a jerk?
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Old 1st August 2017, 02:53 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Read where? Is it a reliable source? Or just internet outrage bait?

If it were a crime there would be a mention of that in a law. Can you cite such a law? Anywhere?
https://www1.nyc.gov/site/cchr/law/l...ssion.page#3.1

1. Failing To Use an Individual’s Preferred Name or Pronoun

The NYCHRL requires employers and covered entities to use an individual’s preferred name, pronoun and title (e.g., Ms./Mrs.) regardless of the individual’s sex assigned at birth, anatomy, gender, medical history, appearance, or the sex indicated on the individual’s identification.

Examples of Violations

Intentional or repeated refusal to use an individual’s preferred name, pronoun or title. For example, repeatedly calling a transgender woman “him” or “Mr.” after she has made clear which pronouns and title she uses.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/cchr/law/l...ression.page#4

The Commission can impose civil penalties up to $125,000 for violations, and up to $250,000 for violations that are the result of willful, wanton, or malicious conduct.





Thankfully I do not live in New York City.
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Old 1st August 2017, 02:55 PM   #12
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
If it were a crime there would be a mention of that in a law. Can you cite such a law? Anywhere?
NYC Human Rights Law, Title 8 of the Administrative Code of the City of New York

Examples of Violations

Intentional or repeated refusal to use an individual’s preferred name, pronoun or title. For example, repeatedly calling a transgender woman “him” or “Mr.” after she has made clear which pronouns and title she uses.
Refusal to use an individual’s preferred name, pronoun, or title because they do not conform to gender stereotypes. For example, calling a woman “Mr.” because her appearance is aligned with traditional gender-based stereotypes of masculinity.
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Old 1st August 2017, 02:56 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
How is he sounding like a jerk?
It appears my unacceptance of what I see as absurd rules and regs has triggered him to insult me.

Oh well, life goes on.
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Old 1st August 2017, 02:56 PM   #14
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How presumptively bigoted of this man and man to assign their biological child the gender of male without knowing its preferred gender first.

At at least there is some potentially good news for the little tike, it will someday be able to claim a victim status if it decides it's not the gender it was assigned at birth.

One question though: will its whiteness overrule its status as a CAMAB (coercively assigned male at birth) on the victimhood hierarchy?

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Old 1st August 2017, 02:56 PM   #15
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Old 1st August 2017, 02:58 PM   #16
Hercules56
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Originally Posted by Bogative View Post
How presumptively bigoted of this man and man to assign their biological child the gender of male without knowing its preferred pronoun first.

At at least there is some potentially good news for the little tike, it will someday be able to claim a victim status if it decides it's not the gender it was assigned at birth.

One question though: will its whiteness overrule its status as a CAMAB (coercively assigned male at birth) on the victimhood hierarchy?
I hear its now fashionable to not announce to anyone the gender of a newborn baby until say its 3rd year of life, so as to prevent gender social construct discrimination against him, like buying boys or girls toys.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:00 PM   #17
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A $125,000 fine for calling a transgender male co-worker a "she", will certainly deserve a hearing at the Supreme Court. One has the right to their own beliefs regarding this VERY complicated matter.

It is unreasonable to fine someone $125,000 for calling a transgender male "madam".

I mean, come on folks. Let's get real.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:04 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
https://www1.nyc.gov/site/cchr/law/l...ssion.page#3.1

1. Failing To Use an Individual’s Preferred Name or Pronoun

The NYCHRL requires employers and covered entities to use an individual’s preferred name, pronoun and title (e.g., Ms./Mrs.) regardless of the individual’s sex assigned at birth, anatomy, gender, medical history, appearance, or the sex indicated on the individual’s identification.

Examples of Violations

Intentional or repeated refusal to use an individual’s preferred name, pronoun or title. For example, repeatedly calling a transgender woman “him” or “Mr.” after she has made clear which pronouns and title she uses.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/cchr/law/l...ression.page#4

The Commission can impose civil penalties up to $125,000 for violations, and up to $250,000 for violations that are the result of willful, wanton, or malicious conduct.
Wow, that's steep price to pay for something so trivial. You'd think you stole their Aston Martin or something.

Of course, the SJWs will say that this is because not using someone's prefered pronouns is dehumanising, despite the fact that such a claim is ludicrous on its face. I'd invite them to look up real dehumanising behaviours, but it'd probably require a trigger warning.

The sad thing is that this all started from a real problem and with good intentions for a solution, but has blown up to ridiculous proportions. By all accounts, trans people represent 0.3% of the population, and yet if one believes some of the stuff we hear online, everybody and their mother has a peculiar sexual orientation or identity (remember Facebook's infamous list of genders?), which seems to indicate that a lot of people have prefered pronouns that have nothing to do with gender dysphoria. In their case, a fad maybe? I guess being part of what your peers see as a super-oppressed minority while at the same time being one of the most comfortable people on the planet sure helps.

(This reminds me of some of the stuff in Marvel comics right now. Reading their issues, you'd think LGBTQ folk represent 70% of the population.)

The sad thing is that one would hope this is an extremist position, but it's gotten pretty mainstream.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:09 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:11 PM   #20
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So is she the mom or dad?
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:12 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
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Wow. Prophetic.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:16 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
So is she the mom or dad?
She is the mother since she gave birth to the child.

I don't give a **** what anyone else says.

Scientific facts are facts.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:17 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
How is he sounding like a jerk?
By being unnecessarily rude to someone. It doesn't hurt you to indulge someone in their choice of pronoun, whether it's "correct" or not in your opinion. Courtesy is the art of making people comfortable. It doesn't hurt me if someone wants to be called "she". So why wouldn't I call them what they want? Is being right more important than being polite in this matter?

You don't have to agree with someone to be polite to them.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:20 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
It appears my unacceptance of what I see as absurd rules and regs has triggered him to insult me.

Oh well, life goes on.
The funny part is that it's you who are having your tender feelings hurt. Why do you care what someone else calls themselves? I don't. If someone wants to be considered a woman or a man it doesn't hurt me in the least. Or interest me, either. So I'll call them what they like and move on with my life. I see no need to stamp my foot and declare "that ain't right!" and complain about it on the internet. The question is: why do you?
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:20 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
By being unnecessarily rude to someone. It doesn't hurt you to indulge someone in their choice of pronoun, whether it's "correct" or not in your opinion. Courtesy is the art of making people comfortable. It doesn't hurt me if someone wants to be called "she". So why wouldn't I call them what they want? Is being right more important than being polite in this matter?

You don't have to agree with someone to be polite to them.
First of all, I have not called anyone by the wrong pronoun.

Now, do you believe that a fine is warranted in such a case?

How much? $1,000? $500? $125,000? $1 million?

How about 5 years in prison?
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:20 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
By being unnecessarily rude to someone.
Oh, ok. You didn't mean in this thread. Sorry.

Quote:
It doesn't hurt you to indulge someone in their choice of pronoun, whether it's "correct" or not in your opinion.
It doesn't hurt you to call me emperor of the world, either. But it ain't true.

Quote:
Courtesy is the art of making people comfortable.
Yes, and we all engage in it. To a degree. As with all things, the question is: how far do you go to make people comfortable? When does it become pandering or treating people like children?

(These are honest questions. I don't know the answers.)

Quote:
It doesn't hurt me if someone wants to be called "she". So why wouldn't I call them what they want?
Even the big hairy biker who doesn't have a hint of woman in his body or mind? How about calling him an Apache attack helicopter?
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:22 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The funny part is that it's you who are having your tender feelings hurt. Why do you care what someone else calls themselves? I don't. If someone wants to be considered a woman or a man it doesn't hurt me in the least. Or interest me, either. So I'll call them what they like and move on with my life. I see no need to stamp my foot and declare "that ain't right!" and complain about it on the internet. The question is: why do you?
Oh, I have zero problem whatsoever if you call yourself he, she, madam, it, dog, cat, horse, Martian, or Jon Snow. Whatever feels best for you.

However I don't believe its fair to require employers and co-workers to comply with the pronoun of a person's choice, under penalty of $125,000.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:22 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The funny part is that it's you who are having your tender feelings hurt.
No, I just think you're using the mirror defense, here. Finding it ridiculous to call said hairy biker "madam" has nothing to do with one's feelings being hurt.

Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
First of all, I have not called anyone by the wrong pronoun.

Now, do you believe that a fine is warranted in such a case?

How much? $1,000? $500? $125,000? $1 million?

How about 5 years in prison?
Summary execution?
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:23 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
First of all, I have not called anyone by the wrong pronoun.

Now, do you believe that a fine is warranted in such a case?

How much? $1,000? $500? $125,000? $1 million?

How about 5 years in prison?
You started a thread to declare your principle unto the world that you would not call someone by a pronoun you don't think they merit.

And of course I don't think a fine is warranted, unless this particular behavior is part of an ongoing harrassment. Which would be a different situation, don't you think?
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:24 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, I just think you're using the mirror defense, here. Finding it ridiculous to call said hairy biker "madam" has nothing to do with one's feelings being hurt.



Summary execution?
Exile to the Phantom Zone sounds appropriate.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:25 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
A $125,000 fine for calling a transgender male co-worker a "she", will certainly deserve a hearing at the Supreme Court. One has the right to their own beliefs regarding this VERY complicated matter.

It is unreasonable to fine someone $125,000 for calling a transgender male "madam".

I mean, come on folks. Let's get real.
These are civil (not criminal) penalties, and "up to $125,000" does not mean "exactly $125,000".

It doesn't seem controversial to me that you can rack up liabilities for intentionally demeaning your employees, or for creating a workplace environment where such behavior is tolerated.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:25 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Oh, I have zero problem whatsoever if you call yourself he, she, madam, it, dog, cat, horse, Martian, or Jon Snow. Whatever feels best for you.
But you'd start a thread to complain about it. Why?

Quote:
However I don't believe its fair to require employers and co-workers to comply with the pronoun of a person's choice, under penalty of $125,000.
You don't think employers should be prevented from harrassing their employees? Does that just apply to matters of gender, or are you in favor of allowing any kind of employer harrassment?
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:25 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
You started a thread to declare your principle unto the world that you would not call someone by a pronoun you don't think they merit.

And of course I don't think a fine is warranted, unless this particular behavior is part of an ongoing harrassment. Which would be a different situation, don't you think?
I don't support harrassment of any kind.

However, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding, I don't consider it to be harrassment to call someone who looks like a guy "he/him" or who looks like a gal "she/her".
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:30 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
By being unnecessarily rude to someone. It doesn't hurt you to indulge someone in their choice of pronoun, whether it's "correct" or not in your opinion. Courtesy is the art of making people comfortable. It doesn't hurt me if someone wants to be called "she". So why wouldn't I call them what they want? Is being right more important than being polite in this matter?

You don't have to agree with someone to be polite to them.
Calling someone a jerk isn't very polite.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:30 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I don't support harrassment of any kind.

However, evidence to the contrary notwithstanding, I don't consider it to be harrassment to call someone who looks like a guy "he/him" or who looks like a gal "she/her".
And there you have it. If the perpetrator doesn't consider it harrassment, it's acceptable.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:31 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
Calling someone a jerk isn't very polite.
I agree. I also said he was sounding like a jerk, not that he is one.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:32 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
The funny part is that it's you who are having your tender feelings hurt. Why do you care what someone else calls themselves? I don't. If someone wants to be considered a woman or a man it doesn't hurt me in the least. Or interest me, either. So I'll call them what they like and move on with my life. I see no need to stamp my foot and declare "that ain't right!" and complain about it on the internet. The question is: why do you?
You have no consideration for others feelings? How unfeeling of you.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:32 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And there you have it. If the perpetrator doesn't consider it harrassment, it's acceptable.
Calling someone "he" is slightly different than calling someone a "******".

But I don't expect you to understand this.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:36 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Calling someone "he" is slightly different than calling someone a "******".

But I don't expect you to understand this.
Is it? To them?

You're drawing a line. You think some behavior, and terminology, is harrassment, and other behavior and terminology is not. Why do you draw that line where you draw it? Why not further one way or another? If you're not willing to call someone "******", are you willing to call them "fag"? What is the difference between those situations that makes you qualify them differently?
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:47 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Is it? To them?

You're drawing a line. You think some behavior, and terminology, is harrassment, and other behavior and terminology is not. Why do you draw that line where you draw it? Why not further one way or another? If you're not willing to call someone "******", are you willing to call them "fag"? What is the difference between those situations that makes you qualify them differently?
Calling someone a faggot is not the same as calling someone "sir".

I understand this issue is of significant emotional importance to you, but you cannot order me under penalty of $125,000 to call a woman "sir".
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