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Tags LGBT issues , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 1st August 2017, 03:48 PM   #41
bruto
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...birth-son.html

Woman feels she is really a man.

Woman gets surgery, takes hormones, and lives like a man.

Now a transgender Man, "he" gets pregnant and gives birth to a healthy baby.

Someone please explain to me why I should be required to call this person a "man", even though "he" has become pregnant and gave birth to a child.
Perhaps it's more germane for you to say why you should care. What, in your world, would crumble if you call a person what he prefers.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:50 PM   #42
Hercules56
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Perhaps it's more germane for you to say why you should care. What, in your world, would crumble if you call a person what he prefers.
The Constitution protects Freedom of Speech.

It does not protect persons from feeling offended.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:50 PM   #43
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Perhaps it's more germane for you to say why you should care. What, in your world, would crumble if you call a person what he/she/ze/xe/qe/tze/per/ve/ze/etc prefers.
FTFY
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:51 PM   #44
Hercules56
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Perhaps it's more germane for you to say why you should care. What, in your world, would crumble if you call a person what he prefers.
I should not face a $125,000 fine for identifying someone by the gender listed on their birth certificate.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:56 PM   #45
sir drinks-a-lot
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As I mentioned above, I believe if someone gets sexually reassigned or dresses as a gender different than their birth gender, and prefers to be called "he" instead of "she" or vice-versa, it would be nice if we all obliged and went on our way.

If someone refuses, I don't think it's the end of the world, and I definitely don't think it should be illegal or a fineable offense.

But, nowadays, we have all of these stupid new pronouns (xe, per, etc.) and they all have stupid new plural forms and stupid new possessive forms, and even some other stupid forms as well. It is as if The Onion has become reality.

One also has to question the motivations of the people who are inventing these pronouns.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:57 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Calling someone a faggot is not the same as calling someone "sir".

I understand this issue is of significant emotional importance to you, but you cannot order me under penalty of $125,000 to call a woman "sir".
I'm not ordering you to do anything. I'm not fining you, I'm not even suggesting a fine is a good idea. I'm asking you to really think about why you have an issue with this.

My grandfather was born in 1914. He's a racist. During the civil rights struggle he repeatedly said that he'd never call a black person "sir", never shake one's hand, etc etc. My mother was born in 1944. She's not racist. She found her father's racism to be insane. Why would he be like that? Why can't he see that there's no sense in racism? she'd say. But you know what? She herself is homophobic. And she can't see the parallel. As unreasonable as she finds her father's notions, she still finds her own to be perfectly rational and thinks people are crazy to question her homophobia.

I think transgenderism is the current generation's thing like that. People my age tend to be non-racist, okay with the gays...but iffy on those weird transgender people. But that's the thing about blind spots--you can't see that they are blind spots. Future generations will look back on today's anti-transgenderism with the same bemusement (and contempt) that we look back on homophobic Baby Boomers and racist whatever you call people born during WWI. Flappers?

And as for "significant emotional importance" to me, it's not. I just wonder why people think they way they do about such things, and if they're willing to actually really think about their own way of thinking. Isn't that part of scepticism? Examining everything, even the things you believe? Especially the things you believe?

But I guess that's all just crazy ranting to you. Wild, emotional, irrational stuff. Rational people don't think about things or ask questions. They just act on instinct, and tradition. Right? That's what rationalism is.
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Old 1st August 2017, 03:59 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
No, I just think you're using the mirror defense, here. Finding it ridiculous to call said hairy biker "madam" has nothing to do with one's feelings being hurt.
I would cheerfully call that big hairy biker whatever they wanted me to call them, whether it be madam, sir, or Your Lordship. It causes me no grief whatsoever to do so.

Even if you don't like the idea, think of it this way: you have to call politicians "sir" or "ma'am" or "Mr. President" to their faces, and you're not going to stay long at Buckingham Palace if you keep referring to the Queen as "hey, Betty!"

So why not have some manners and call people what they wish to be called? It's funny that the people who most resent this are the ones who long for a return to the "Good Old Days" when polite manners were far more required in daily life.
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Old 1st August 2017, 04:05 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
I'm not ordering you to do anything. I'm not fining you, I'm not even suggesting a fine is a good idea. I'm asking you to really think about why you have an issue with this.

My grandfather was born in 1914. He's a racist. During the civil rights struggle he repeatedly said that he'd never call a black person "sir", never shake one's hand, etc etc. My mother was born in 1944. She's not racist. She found her father's racism to be insane. Why would he be like that? Why can't he see that there's no sense in racism? she'd say. But you know what? She herself is homophobic. And she can't see the parallel. As unreasonable as she finds her father's notions, she still finds her own to be perfectly rational and thinks people are crazy to question her homophobia.

I think transgenderism is the current generation's thing like that.
I understand this is what you currently think.

But I disagree.

I think gender is hardwired into our DNA, biology and phenotype. We dont yet have the technology to turn a man into a woman or a woman into a man.

The question is "if a man wants to be called a woman, should we call him a woman"?

I don't know if its right for me to impose my views on this issue on someone else, or vice-versa.

If someone refuses to identify a man as a woman unless a complete surgical procedure is done to remove all womanly organs and replace them with fully-functioning male organs, there is a scientific argument to be made for that.

However, I believe if one cannot find it themselves to call a transgender man "sir/he/him", he should then always refer to that person by their NAME.

And if the transgender person does not like this compromise, he/she can go **** himself.

The law should allow a boss or co-worker to always call someone "Jane" or "Susan" or "Sally" or "David" or "Michael" or "Steve", rather than a gender-identifying pronoun, without any penalty or charges of harrassment.

Last edited by Hercules56; 1st August 2017 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 1st August 2017, 04:09 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
I have read there are some municipalities that will charge you with sexual harrassment if you intentionally use the "wrong" pronoun when discussing a transgender employee or co-worker.
I think you have read incorrectly.

However, there are some universities that might consider it whatever it is that they do in their student kangaroo courts, and of course companies might have policies that prohibit it.


Oh, and if you call that person who gave birth a man, then the terms man and woman have no meaning at all, whether or not one has good manners.
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Old 1st August 2017, 04:10 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
https://www1.nyc.gov/site/cchr/law/l...ssion.page#3.1

1. Failing To Use an Individual’s Preferred Name or Pronoun

The NYCHRL requires employers and covered entities to use an individual’s preferred name, pronoun and title (e.g., Ms./Mrs.) regardless of the individual’s sex assigned at birth, anatomy, gender, medical history, appearance, or the sex indicated on the individual’s identification.

Examples of Violations

Intentional or repeated refusal to use an individual’s preferred name, pronoun or title. For example, repeatedly calling a transgender woman “him” or “Mr.” after she has made clear which pronouns and title she uses.

https://www1.nyc.gov/site/cchr/law/l...ression.page#4

The Commission can impose civil penalties up to $125,000 for violations, and up to $250,000 for violations that are the result of willful, wanton, or malicious conduct.





Thankfully I do not live in New York City.
I stand corrected. I guess some of those people who went to those universities must have graduated.
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Old 1st August 2017, 04:13 PM   #51
Hercules56
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As far as pronouns are concerned I have come up with a fair compromise.

Always call a transgender person by their NAME, if this is an issue for you.

Jake is always Jake. Not sir, he, him, etc. Always Jake.

Susan is always Susan. Not her, madam, ma'am, she, etc. Always Susan.


You can't be accused of bigotry for calling someone by their name.

You can't be called a sellout for calling someone by their name.

Problem solved. You're welcome.

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Old 1st August 2017, 04:15 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Problem solved. You're welcome.
Thanks? For solving your own problem?
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Old 1st August 2017, 04:28 PM   #53
Hercules56
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
Thanks? For solving your own problem?
You're welcome.
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Old 1st August 2017, 04:33 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
The NYCHRL requires employers and covered entities ...
What is a covered entity?

As far as the law is concerned, it seems to be rather "nannyish". I don't need that kind of protect, I think.

Ranb

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Old 1st August 2017, 04:58 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
What is a covered entity?
Employers and agents thereof.

Quote:
As far as the law is concerned, it seems to be rather "nannyish". I don't need that kind of protect, I think.
It should first be said that there is no law against using the wrong pronoun--these are just guidelines issued by the NYCCHR as to how to comply with with the NYCHRL, which bars discrimination on the grounds of gender identity.

I don't see why it's remarkable to people that intentionally demeaning your employees (say, by insisting that they are not the gender they tell you they are) will lead to exactly the same kind of liabilities as demeaning your employees in violation of any other anti-discrimination measure. Call your female employees fat broads--what do you expect will happen?

The point here is that employers have a positive obligation to create non-discriminatory conditions of employment (that is, to avoid "hostile workplaces"). The main difference in NYC is that gender identity is a protected class, too.

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Old 1st August 2017, 04:58 PM   #56
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According to this, there is an even more expensive penalty for " willful, wanton, or malicious conduct".

What is the lower fine for then? Accidentally saying the wrong thing more than once without malice?

Quote:
The Commission can impose civil penalties up to $125,000 for violations, and up to $250,000 for violations that are the result of willful, wanton, or malicious conduct.

Remember when the people against gay marriage said that it will be a slippery slope to a lot of other things, like people wanting to marry their dogs? The response to them was, "We just want the same legal rights as you have"

I'm pro gay marriage, but this stuff is getting ridiculous. Sounds like a bunch of lawyers trying to make a big deal where there isn't one, and winning.
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Old 1st August 2017, 05:29 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And of course I don't think a fine is warranted, unless this particular behavior is part of an ongoing harrassment. Which would be a different situation, don't you think?
That's entirely reasonable. We're on the internet, however. Can't have that, TM.
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Old 1st August 2017, 05:33 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by deadrose View Post
I would cheerfully call that big hairy biker whatever they wanted me to call them, whether it be madam, sir, or Your Lordship. It causes me no grief whatsoever to do so.
From now on I want you to call me Emperor of the World every time you address me. See, I feel like the Emperor of the World and your silly objective reality has no dominion over me.

Quote:
Even if you don't like the idea, think of it this way: you have to call politicians "sir" or "ma'am" or "Mr. President" to their faces
I really don't.

Quote:
So why not have some manners and call people what they wish to be called?
False dichotomy.
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Old 1st August 2017, 05:36 PM   #59
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Take people as you find them and treat them the way you'd want to be treated...or, perhaps better yet, treat them the way you'd want your beloved child to be treated it they were in the same situation. It's pretty hard to go wrong like that, and I highly doubt any municipality will attempt to fine you for it.
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Old 1st August 2017, 05:37 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Take people as you find them and treat them the way you'd want to be treated...or, perhaps better yet, treat them the way you'd want your beloved child to be treated it they were in the same situation.
I'd like them to be treated to the truth. The truth doesn't have to be told in a way that hurts, but is it wrong of me to want my utterances to correspond to objective reality?
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Old 1st August 2017, 05:39 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...birth-son.html

Someone please explain to me why I should be required to call this person a "man", even though "he" has become pregnant and gave birth to a child.
Because we are living in The Crazy Years
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Old 1st August 2017, 05:40 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I'd like them to be treated to the truth. The truth doesn't have to be told in a way that hurts, but is it wrong of me to want my utterances to correspond to objective reality?
Why do you have to utter at all? Who asked you? Is it your place to pass judgment, aloud, on everybody else?
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Old 1st August 2017, 05:47 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why do you have to utter at all? Who asked you? Is it your place to pass judgment, aloud, on everybody else?
What in the blue hell are you talking about?

Are you now saying that, if I don't call you want you want to be called, I should instead shut up? I do have to actually talk to people, you know? I just said that the truth can be told politely. Would you rather hear a more comfortable lie? If so, you can expect it from someone else.
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Old 1st August 2017, 05:51 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I'd like them to be treated to the truth. The truth doesn't have to be told in a way that hurts, but is it wrong of me to want my utterances to correspond to objective reality?
Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Why do you have to utter at all? Who asked you? Is it your place to pass judgment, aloud, on everybody else?
Exactly.

I wonder if the stated compulsions here to act so rudely to people are real or if they constitute yet another manifestation of "internet tough."
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Old 1st August 2017, 05:52 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What in the blue hell are you talking about?

Are you now saying that, if I don't call you want you want to be called, I should instead shut up? I do have to actually talk to people, you know? I just said that the truth can be told politely. Would you rather hear a more comfortable lie? If so, you can expect it from someone else.
Lady, if you think you know the 'truth' of someone else's gender better than they do themselves and can tell them in a 'polite' way, you don't know what 'polite' means.
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Old 1st August 2017, 05:53 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Take people as you find them and treat them the way you'd want to be treated...or, perhaps better yet, treat them the way you'd want your beloved child to be treated it they were in the same situation. It's pretty hard to go wrong like that, and I highly doubt any municipality will attempt to fine you for it.

I hate my kids.


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Old 1st August 2017, 05:55 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What in the blue hell are you talking about?

Are you now saying that, if I don't call you want you want to be called, I should instead shut up? I do have to actually talk to people, you know? I just said that the truth can be told politely. Would you rather hear a more comfortable lie? If so, you can expect it from someone else.
And these conversations you must have with the transgendered, they require you to bring up your opinions about transgenderism? "Hello, yes, I'd like to rent the Acura. Also you are biologically male." "I'll have the 8 ounce filet with green beans and a potato, and your possession of a uterus disqualifies you from being called by a male pronoun by me." "Excuse me, what are your chromosomes like? I need to know because we're in a meeting to watch a PowerPoint presentation about shipping costs."

eta: like my racist grandpa, who would ask people "what are you?" if they didn't seem obviously white or black to him.
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Old 1st August 2017, 05:57 PM   #68
sir drinks-a-lot
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Take people as you find them and treat them the way you'd want to be treated
Even if they're Republicans?
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Old 1st August 2017, 06:02 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
Exactly.

I wonder if the stated compulsions here to act so rudely to people are real or if they constitute yet another manifestation of "internet tough."
Why is it so difficult to read what I post for comprehension. Here it is again:

Quote:
I'd like them to be treated to the truth. The truth doesn't have to be told in a way that hurts, but is it wrong of me to want my utterances to correspond to objective reality?
Did you miss that part? Was it easier to focus on the part you disagreed with?

Tell me, is there no lie you wouldn't tell someone just because they ask you to?
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Old 1st August 2017, 06:04 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
Lady, if you think you know the 'truth' of someone else's gender better than they do themselves and can tell them in a 'polite' way, you don't know what 'polite' means.
I said I was Emperor of the World, Tyr. I think I know my rank better than you do.

See how that works? No. I'm not emperor of the world, and there are objective measures of who's a he and who's a she.

Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
And these conversations you must have with the transgendered, they require you to bring up your opinions about transgenderism? "Hello, yes, I'd like to rent the Acura. Also you are biologically male." "I'll have the 8 ounce filet with green beans and a potato, and your possession of a uterus disqualifies you from being called by a male pronoun by me." "Excuse me, what are your chromosomes like? I need to know because we're in a meeting to watch a PowerPoint presentation about shipping costs."

eta: like my racist grandpa, who would ask people "what are you?" if they didn't seem obviously white or black to him.
Wow, that's some pretty massive chip you have on your shoulder, there, to be utterly unable to address what someone actually says. All you know is "Argumemnon disagrees with my obviously superior moral opinion. How dare he?"

I'll have you know that when you speak to someone you often address them as "sir" or "ma'am" or something like that. So yeah, I do have to use pronouns they might not like. It's not as if this is some arcane, long-forgotten obscure social more.

How about you respond to what I actually say rather than address some social boogeyman of your own design? That way it may appear as if you're having a conversation like an adult.
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Old 1st August 2017, 06:15 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Why is it so difficult to read what I post for comprehension. Here it is again:



Did you miss that part? Was it easier to focus on the part you disagreed with?

Tell me, is there no lie you wouldn't tell someone just because they ask you to?
You seem to be under the impression that you are in the possession of truth as it applies to others. It's both arrogant and bigoted to believe it, and it's extremely rude for you to point out your personal truth about someone else's gender unless they *********** well ask you for it.

If you want to correct someone's math, go to it. If someone attributes a quote to Shakespeare that was actually written by Keats, feel free to let them know. If someone corrects your use of mister or miss because they don't identify as the gender you thought they did, correct yourself or shut up. There is no non-rude, non-hurtful way you can insist on referring to them according to your preference rather than theirs.
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Old 1st August 2017, 06:17 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
By being unnecessarily rude to someone. It doesn't hurt you to indulge someone in their choice of pronoun, whether it's "correct" or not in your opinion. Courtesy is the art of making people comfortable. It doesn't hurt me if someone wants to be called "she". So why wouldn't I call them what they want? Is being right more important than being polite in this matter?

You don't have to agree with someone to be polite to them.
You don't have to be polite to someone to agree with them either.
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Old 1st August 2017, 06:19 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Wow, that's some pretty massive chip you have on your shoulder, there, to be utterly unable to address what someone actually says. All you know is "Argumemnon disagrees with my obviously superior moral opinion. How dare he?"
Yeah, that must be it.

Quote:
I'll have you know that when you speak to someone you often address them as "sir" or "ma'am" or something like that.
Are you from the nineteenth century? If you don't know whether someone's male or female you can just omit the terms. Or in your case if you disagree with their gender. But it will still work regardless.

Quote:
So yeah, I do have to use pronouns they might not like. It's not as if this is some arcane, long-forgotten obscure social more.
How many people get mad if you don't call them "sir" or "ma'am"? Do you work in a really snooty retail establishment?

Quote:
How about you respond to what I actually say rather than address some social boogeyman of your own design? That way it may appear as if you're having a conversation like an adult.
You can't really try to come across as the adult when you're dispensing the childish insults.
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Old 1st August 2017, 06:21 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
You seem to be under the impression that you are in the possession of truth as it applies to others.
If you believe in objective reality at all then you know that truth is independant of one's beliefs. So, in fact, everyone is in possession of truth as it applies to others.

Quote:
It's both arrogant and bigoted to believe it, and it's extremely rude for you to point out your personal truth about someone else's gender unless they *********** well ask you for it.
And there we have it _again_. The ONLY argument that you have on this topic is that anyone who disagrees with you is a big meanie. You have no argument.

Quote:
If you want to correct someone's math, go to it.
Why? What if they believe with all their heart that 2+2=5? Wouldn't it be rude to tell them that they're wrong? Aren't you being arrogant to tell them such things? Or does that principle only apply to the things you agree with?
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Old 1st August 2017, 06:24 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Perhaps it's more germane for you to say why you should care. What, in your world, would crumble if you call a person what he prefers.
"When dealing with the insane, the best method is to pretend to be sane." - Hermann Hesse
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Old 1st August 2017, 06:25 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
And there we have it _again_. The ONLY argument that you have on this topic is that anyone who disagrees with you is a big meanie. You have no argument.
I have no argument? Treating people with respect should be everyone's default position. Why? Because it makes socialization work. Your stated desire to vomit your truth all over others, even if you know that it means treating them in a way they would dislike, is the position that is indefensible.
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Old 1st August 2017, 06:28 PM   #77
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It's the new "Why do black people get to say the N-word but I can't?" argument.
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Old 1st August 2017, 06:28 PM   #78
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
Are you from the nineteenth century?
You know, for all your talk of being nice to other people you seem to dislike the words we've used to be nice to each other for centuries. Apparently you think calling a man you don't know "sir" is some sort of weird, antiquated manner alien to our time. I assure you, it's still very much in use. It sure beats calling people "you there" or "hey".

Quote:
If you don't know whether someone's male or female you can just omit the terms.
I've never had that problem, see?
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Old 1st August 2017, 06:31 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by Babbylonian View Post
I have no argument? Treating people with respect should be everyone's default position.
Hey, this is the third time I have to repeat myself to you. Pay attention:

I'd like them to be treated to the truth. The truth doesn't have to be told in a way that hurts, but is it wrong of me to want my utterances to correspond to objective reality?

Do you see the highlited part, this time? Why are you trying to teach me that you shouldn't be rude to people when this is exactly what I've been saying?

But there's a difference between being nice and telling people what they want to hear all the time. It would be really respectful if you at least acknowledged that.

Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
It's the new "Why do black people get to say the N-word but I can't?" argument.
It's absolutely nothing like it at all. "Him" is not a derogatory word.
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Old 1st August 2017, 06:34 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You know, for all your talk of being nice to other people you seem to dislike the words we've used to be nice to each other for centuries. Apparently you think calling a man you don't know "sir" is some sort of weird, antiquated manner alien to our time. I assure you, it's still very much in use. It sure beats calling people "you there" or "hey".
You can still omit the terms when in doubt. There is no part of the English language that requires use of them to make sense of your speech. If you are talking to someone and don't call them either "sir" or "ma'am" do they get confused and wonder who you are talking to? How often do you call them "sir" or "ma'am"? In every remark you make? "It's a nice day, sir. The traffic was heavy, sir. Sir, did you see the game last night? Sir, it was a ludicrous display, sir." Are you a butler? When people speak to each other it's usually pretty obvious who is talking to whom, without using extra terminology.

Quote:
I've never had that problem, see?
You think you don't have that problem but apparently you do. You seem to have some compulsion to dwell on the sex of whoever you're talking to, to the extreme of arguing with them if you think they've gotten it wrong. That you don't see it as a problem doesn't mean it isn't a problem.
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