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Tags LGBT issues , transgender incidents , transgender issues

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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:21 AM   #201
Minoosh
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Originally Posted by Hercules56 View Post
Someone please explain to me why I should be required to call this person a "man", even though "he" has become pregnant and gave birth to a child.
You're not required to.

EDIT: Ninja'ed by everyone.
ETA2: I'm not sure you should be required to. It's simply the law in some states under certain conditions, duly passed and so on. Why should I not smoke marijuana? Because it's not legal where I live. (In my case some other good reasons).

I am WAY behind on this thread. It moved fast. I'll stop posting now.

Last edited by Minoosh; 2nd August 2017 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:30 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
How is that relevant to the question of whether we play along with their claim?
I am trying to figure out what playing along with their claim actually means. You are going to use what ever pronoun you feel is appropriate for people, so what is the act that you are doing or ignoring their wishes with transracial people?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:31 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
As I already said in the post you quoted, the main difference is that I know what a woman is in context
This is the third time I ask you to give me your criteria for making this determination. You've said that the person's identification is not the only criterion, but you have avoided giving me a full list of them. Are you going to do this now?

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and your BS argument doesn't. It in fact denies such a context by assertion.
What are you talking about? We're simply using different criteria.

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That's why you are not arguing in good faith.
That comes back to exactly what I said: I'm not arguing in good faith because it's impossible to do so and not reach the same conclusion as you.

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The conclusions of my argument have the benefit of being true though.
Argument from decree. Very bold.

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If you think my argument is BS because it echoed your form, then the mirror argument served well to show your argument by your own standards is BS.
That doesn't follow at all. If I say you're ugly, and you respond that I'm ugly too, saying that your response is BS because you just threw back mine at me doesn't mean you're not ugly.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:32 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
I am trying to figure out what playing along with their claim actually means.
That's odd. We've been discussing that for the entire thread. Where did I lose you?

- I'm a woman
- If you say so, then you are!

- I'm an orchid!
- If you say so, then you are!

etc.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:35 AM   #205
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Yes. Intentional OR repeated. So it's against the law to not cater to people's beliefs about their gender.
No, it's against the law to harass them about it. There's no verbiage in the statute that requires you to cater to them.

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Because there is, of course, no middle ground.
Why does there need to be? Say "Good morning, Roberta", get your coffee, and go about your business.

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And how is it bigoted or dehumanising? How are you defining those terms?
Any old dictionary will do.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:39 AM   #206
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The issue goes beyond politeness and social roles. I have no problem being polite and calling people what they prefer to be called.

But what we are talking about in the present case is a person who was born female-sexed but actually is male-gnedered. Thats what a Transman is, yes? The underlying idea is that this person is well and truly a male and we in society should respect his dignity as a male. But then, this man goes and has a baby. How are we supposed to reconcile this? Are we supposed to suddenly think: "Well of course, some men can have babies, NBD."
Sure why not?
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This idea goes against everything we understand about biology and gender. The current generation of humans is going to have a really hard time actually considering someone to be a man if that man has given birth.
And again biology is not clear cut. If you want to be clear cut then you have to stop thinking of people who have had hysterectomies as women. And of course people with vasectomies are not men either. As for gender, as a social construct that changes all the time. The modern ideas of what it means to be a man vs a woman is radically different than it was 50 years ago. For example no women are even allowed to sign things for themselves.
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For me, personally, if I knew and interacted with such a person, I'd remain polite. But I can't help but think that such a situation undermines the fight for acceptance of trans people in larger society. It just furthers the notion that trans people are actually suffering from a mental illness. Maybe a few generations down, men having babies will be NBD, but in current society it's going to be an issue.
Like having a woman for a boss. You grab her ass once and now suddenly it is some big deal.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:40 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
No, it's against the law to harass them about it.
Then why word it that way, "intentional OR repeated"?

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Why does there need to be?
Need? What? Do you seriously think that there are only two options there? Harass this person or pretend that what they think is true regardless of whether it is?

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Any old dictionary will do.
You're using a non-standard definition. If you send me to the dictionary, I'll just tell you that your use of these words is just nonsense.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:41 AM   #208
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
It is a mental disorder. But there's nothing wrong with that. Plenty of people suffer from such disorders. Hell, as far as I know, I probably suffer from OCD myself. I know a few people with anxiety problems. We do support people with such disorders in various ways such as medication or, in the case of trans people and should they want to, transition.

But the risk in public opinion you allude to is not that they have a mental disorder, but that the entire idea of transgenderism is a hoax. Such a thing would be far more damaging to trans people than pronouns.
The thing is they don't have a disorder, or rather they have one that is cured by transitioning. But of course that isn't acceptable and you need to fight and exacerbate all mental disorders as much as possible. So they know their place.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:42 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And again biology is not clear cut. If you want to be clear cut then you have to stop thinking of people who have had hysterectomies as women
What are you on about? Why would you stop thinking of these women as women?

Are you contending that the presence of genitals at moment X is what determines whether someone's a man or a woman? Again, I've addressed it earlier today but "oddly" it went ignored: someone who loses an arm doesn't cease being human just because humans have two arms.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:44 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Of course when one points out a general rule that applies to 99.7% of the population, some wise guy will point out that it isn't 100%, as if it matters to what the first person said.
We aren't talking about 99.7% of the population, are we? Does your general rule apply to 99.7% of the trans population? That you can tell the males from the females on sight?
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I've addressed exactly this sort of argument earlier. It's objective reality that people are afraid of elevators, but that does not mean that elevators being dangerous is objective reality. I suspect that you understood the distinction quite well before you posted that.
If Joe has decided to present himself to the world as afraid of elevators, how does you challenging that make the world a better place? Maybe Joe is fine with taking the stairs. I'm just not getting what it is that you would want to achieve by, for example, calling our transwoman student "he". What is the net gain in the world?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:47 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Originally Posted by Argumemnon
It is a mental disorder. But there's nothing wrong with that. Plenty of people suffer from such disorders. Hell, as far as I know, I probably suffer from OCD myself. I know a few people with anxiety problems. We do support people with such disorders in various ways such as medication or, in the case of trans people and should they want to, transition.
The thing is they don't have a disorder, or rather they have one that is cured by transitioning. But of course that isn't acceptable and you need to fight and exacerbate all mental disorders as much as possible. So they know their place.
If anyone had any doubts as to your rank dishonesty, I can't think of a better proof than the above.

How you can respond to a reasoned post, where I make very clear that the disorder is nothing to be ashamed of and that those with it need our support, and pretend that I said the exact opposite is some of the most hateful things I've seen someone write on this forum.

That you would expend so much energy to libel other posters just to pat yourself on the back for your moral superiority is nothing short of disgusting.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:48 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Then why word it that way, "intentional OR repeated"?
Because that is standard verbiage of harassment laws.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:51 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
What are you on about? Why would you stop thinking of these women as women?
They can't get pregnant. That makes them not biologically women anymore. Simple really.
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Are you contending that the presence of genitals at moment X is what determines whether someone's a man or a woman? Again, I've addressed it earlier today but "oddly" it went ignored: someone who loses an arm doesn't cease being human just because humans have two arms.
No I am saying that if you want to really go into biology their ability to fulfill the reproductive role of male or female at a given moment is what defines it. Women stop being biologically female at menopause as well.

Simple and direct definition. Utterly useless socially but perfect in terms of biology, and that is what is really important right?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:51 AM   #214
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
We aren't talking about 99.7% of the population, are we? Does your general rule apply to 99.7% of the trans population? That you can tell the males from the females on sight?
I think you lost track of the conversation. Yes, we're talking about 99.7% of the population when someone tells me there's no way to know if someone's a man or a woman just by looking at them. That there is a tiny percentage of the population for which this is a problematic proposition doesn't change the fact that the claim that I can't do this is wrong.

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If Joe has decided to present himself to the world as afraid of elevators, how does you challenging that make the world a better place?
You're right of course. That's why nothing was ever gained by challenging the deeply-held belief that the earth was the center of the universe, or that mental illness was due to demonic possession. No, of course telling people that their beliefs are wrong has only brought us pain and misery.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:52 AM   #215
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
If anyone had any doubts as to your rank dishonesty, I can't think of a better proof than the above.

How you can respond to a reasoned post, where I make very clear that the disorder is nothing to be ashamed of and that those with it need our support, and pretend that I said the exact opposite is some of the most hateful things I've seen someone write on this forum.

That you would expend so much energy to libel other posters just to pat yourself on the back for your moral superiority is nothing short of disgusting.
You are against the effective cure for gender dysphoria, why pick on just that one mental problem?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 09:56 AM   #216
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You are against the effective cure for gender dysphoria, why pick on just that one mental problem?
You CAN read the highlighted part, right? You CAN see that I've argued for the exact opposite of what you say I argued for, right? You know that means you're lying, right?

Well, if you can't, other posters can for sure.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:12 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post

I think a pretty good trans-inclusive definition of "woman" would go something like "an adult, human female, or someone who exhibits the gender attributes (especially gender identity) traditionally associated with adult, human females". That's non-circular and does not evacuate the word of all meaning.
It does not exclude transmen.


That's not the only problem with the definition, but that's enough to demonstrated that it doesn't meet the criteria I posted.

Reminder:
1. includes transwomen
2. excludes transmen
3. is not circular
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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:14 AM   #218
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
If anyone had any doubts as to your rank dishonesty, I can't think of a better proof than the above.

How you can respond to a reasoned post, where I make very clear that the disorder is nothing to be ashamed of and that those with it need our support, and pretend that I said the exact opposite is some of the most hateful things I've seen someone write on this forum.

That you would expend so much energy to libel other posters just to pat yourself on the back for your moral superiority is nothing short of disgusting.
This
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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:16 AM   #219
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
You CAN read the highlighted part, right? You CAN see that I've argued for the exact opposite of what you say I argued for, right? You know that means you're lying, right?

Well, if you can't, other posters can for sure.
You have been clear that for this you will focus on some biological fact instead of what will actually help them. But you repeatedly ignore all the complexity of biological sex too.

How about this, what is an acceptable fine for refusing to rent apartments to transgender people? Does it change if you are renting out the top floor of your home vs being a slum lord?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:18 AM   #220
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
It does not exclude transmen.


That's not the only problem with the definition, but that's enough to demonstrated that it doesn't meet the criteria I posted.

Reminder:
1. includes transwomen
2. excludes transmen
3. is not circular
It does meet that, it just does not list the various traits that one signals gender with in our society.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:21 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You have been clear that for this you will focus on some biological fact instead of what will actually help them.
The two aren't mutually-exclusive. But of course, someone who sees everything in black-and-white terms wouldn't understand that.

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But you repeatedly ignore all the complexity of biological sex too.
Oh, amaze me about this complexity you speak of.

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How about this, what is an acceptable fine for refusing to rent apartments to transgender people?
I've already told you that I have no idea. I only know that the price of a house is too high, ok?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:26 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
The two aren't mutually-exclusive. But of course, someone who sees everything in black-and-white terms wouldn't understand that.
In this case you are acting in ways well documented to increase the suicide rate of people with these conditions.


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Oh, amaze me about this complexity you speak of.
Androgen insensitive men. They are men but they look like ladies. Clearly they need to use the men's locker room.


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I've already told you that I have no idea. I only know that the price of a house is too high, ok?
So what should the cap be? It needs to be high because it needs to be something that will effect large companies. Or you just get the fox news sexual harassment situation where you just accept the fines as the cost of doing business.

So lets make it cap out at $5. That way we can't even pretend that it will effect the rich and powerful.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:30 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by tyr_13 View Post
No, Zigg, it actually isn't, no matter how many times you've also fallen into that 'childish' trap too.

Again, context matters.
Which is another way of saying "because reasons".

And it's not a trap when you can't raise a legitimate argument and resort to straw man bad faith arguments instead.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:33 AM   #224
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
In this case you are acting in ways well documented to increase the suicide rate of people with these conditions.
That would only be true if you think medication and transition increase their suicide rate.

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Androgen insensitive men. They are men but they look like ladies. Clearly they need to use the men's locker room.
That's not a complexity of sex. That's a rare disorder that has an occurance of 0.005. Complexity of sex would include listing the various genes that are responsible for the expression of sex and how they make it difficult to determine sex in a sizeable proportion of the population. If significantly less than 1% of the population has such identification problems, it isn't a matter of the complexity of sex.

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So what should the cap be?
No idea. As I said, higher for those with higher means.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:43 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Then why word it that way, "intentional OR repeated"?
Because that's how harassment is being defined in the statute. Also, you left out a key bit of context. It's an intentional or repeated refusal.

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Need? What? Do you seriously think that there are only two options there? Harass this person or pretend that what they think is true regardless of whether it is?
No, I'm asking you why you need that middle ground. Why can't you just call Bob "Roberta" and get on with your life? Why do you need to move closer to the harassment end of the spectrum?

Also, no one is telling you that you have to pretend something is true that you don't think is. All you have to do is exhibit a modicum of respect and courtesy by referring to someone as the gender to which they wish to be referred.

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You're using a non-standard definition. If you send me to the dictionary, I'll just tell you that your use of these words is just nonsense.
Awesome. You have fun with your tedious and pointless semantic game. I won't be taking part.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:45 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
I only know that the price of a house is too high, ok?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:48 AM   #227
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
Because that's how harassment is being defined in the statute. Also, you left out a key bit of context. It's an intentional or repeated refusal.
We're running in circles. The way it's written, a single intentional refusal is defined as harassment? That's crazy. It has to be repeated to make any sense.

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No, I'm asking you why you need that middle ground.
Why do you keep using that word, "need"? I'm pointing out that you left out possibilities, creating a false dichotomy.

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Why can't you just call Bob "Roberta" and get on with your life?

Also, no one is telling you that you have to pretend something is true that you don't think is.
Of course they are. They're telling me to call Bob "Roberta" and get on with my life.

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Awesome. You have fun with your tedious and pointless semantic game. I won't be taking part.
I tell you that you're using non-standard definitions, and I'm the one playing semantic games?

Or did you feel that you couldn't defend your use of those words?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:56 AM   #228
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
We're running in circles. The way it's written, a single intentional refusal is defined as harassment? That's crazy. It has to be repeated to make any sense.
File a complaint with your legislator then, I guess. I didn't draft the law, so I can't help you with that. I personally don't have a problem with how it's worded, nor do I find myself at risk of running afoul of it.

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Why do you keep using that word, "need"? I'm pointing out that you left out possibilities, creating a false dichotomy.
I presented two options. I didn't suggest no other ones exist.

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Of course they are. They're telling me to call Bob "Roberta" and get on with my life.
And you feel that would somehow force you to pretend to believe something to be true that you don't? Weird.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 10:58 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by johnny karate View Post
File a complaint with your legislator then, I guess.
Come on now, Johnny. I don't live in NYC but I can still disagree with aspects of the law.

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I presented two options. I didn't suggest no other ones exist.
Fair enough, then. I still don't know how that's bigoted or dehumanising.

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And you feel that would somehow force you to pretend to believe something to be true that you don't?
Pretend, yes, since I should shut up about it and not challenge it. At least you're not asking me to believe it.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:01 AM   #230
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Originally Posted by mumblethrax View Post
I think a pretty good trans-inclusive definition of "woman" would go something like "an adult, human female, or someone who exhibits the gender attributes (especially gender identity) traditionally associated with adult, human females". That's non-circular and does not evacuate the word of all meaning.
What about a person who is an adult, human female, or someone who exhibits the gender attributes traditionally associated with adult, human females that chooses to identify as male?
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:02 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
That would only be true if you think medication and transition increase their suicide rate.
And you are rejecting transition. And opposing laws to make discrimination illegal.

Make some proposals of how you want it to work.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:05 AM   #232
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And you are rejecting transition. And opposing laws to make discrimination illegal.
And you are advocating killing babies for food. And opposing laws to make slavery illegal.

When you have something to say about what I actually write, let me know.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:05 AM   #233
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Just for clarity, Arg, are you saying that you prefer to refer to people as the gender you think is appropriate based on how well they are passing as that gender in your judgement, and if they request something else you want to be free to ignore that?

And if so you are aware that that is the sort of thing that does actually in fact aggravate suicide rates but too bad? After all if they want your cooperation they just need to get further along in transition? The distress is worth the stand?

Do you think that people in this situation need you to remind them that they don't deserve to be called sir or madam as the case may be? Do you think it will do a single ounce of good to try to reinforce what they already know practically everyone besides themselves, their doctors, and hopefully their close friends thinks about them? Do you really think they haven't already heard and considered this? Do you think they need you to correct their misconceptions?

It sounds a little like you were walking it back to just saying it sounded like the bar for calling it harassment instead of honest mistakes was too low or the fines too high.

Being continually intentionally referred to by the opposite of your preferred pronouns at work is definitely being harassed, it's stressful and dehumanizing and also annoying. Disagree? Too bad?

Last edited by Lithrael; 2nd August 2017 at 11:10 AM.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:06 AM   #234
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
We're running in circles. The way it's written, a single intentional refusal is defined as harassment? That's crazy. It has to be repeated to make any sense.
Sure it depends on context. Like sexual harassment, some things are clearly harassment, and somethings become harassment through repeated unwanted use.


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Of course they are. They're telling me to call Bob "Roberta" and get on with my life
And god help Bob if he wants to go by Robert. He will still be Bob.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:08 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Just for clarity, Arg, are you saying that you prefer to refer to people as the gender you think is appropriate based on how well they are passing as that gender in your judgement, and if they request something else you want to be free to ignore that?

And if so you are aware that that is the sort of thing that does actually in fact aggravate suicide rates but too bad? After all if they want your cooperation they just need to get further along in transition? The distress is worth the stand?
Gertrude clearly does not care about their lives or deaths.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:09 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Just for clarity, Arg, are you saying that you prefer to refer to people as the gender you think is appropriate based on how well they are passing as that gender in your judgement, and if they request something else you want to be free to ignore that?
The issue in these sorts of thread is that we're frequently presented with a conflation of two things: objective reality and etiquette. Just because I think someone isn't a man just because they think of themselves as a man doesn't mean I go around telling random people on the street their gender according to my observations.

My crucial point is that one's beliefs does not change reality, and that sex/gender are not determined by one's beliefs. It's that simple. The idea of challenging people on those beliefs was brought up by others as a distraction.

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Do you think that people in this situation need you to remind them that they don't deserve to be called sir or madam as the case may be?
There's that word again, "need". Everything circles right back to how people feel, when I'm arguing about objective reality. So it does seem like people are arguing that the former should trump the latter.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:10 AM   #237
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Gertrude clearly does not care about their lives or deaths.
Are you aware that misrepresenting my actual beliefs is dehumanising? You are invalidating my experiences! How bigoted of you! You've just increased my rate of suicide.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:12 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
Are you aware that misrepresenting my actual beliefs is dehumanising? You are invalidating my experiences! How bigoted of you! You've just increased my rate of suicide.
You need to accept some responsibility for your actions.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:17 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
You need to accept some responsibility for your actions.
HA! How amusing. I say that I support trans people in their quest to become the gender of their choice, that I oppose discrimination against them based on their condition, and then you come in and pretend like I said the exact opposite, repeatedly and even after I show to the world that you're the dishonest party in the discussion, and now _I_ have to be responsible for the "actions" you made up for me?

You are an exceptional comedian. A dishonest and despicable comedian, but an exceptional one nonetheless.

I do hope that in the future you run afoul of your own ideological allies and get a taste of your own medecine, however. Ideologues have a tendency to splinter in mutually-heretical groups, despised by the others for not being "pure" enough in their beliefs, and those who are the most vicious and fanatical tend to learn that lesson before the others.
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Old 2nd August 2017, 11:19 AM   #240
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Originally Posted by Argumemnon View Post
HA! How amusing. I say that I support trans people in their quest to become the gender of their choice, that I oppose discrimination against them based on their condition, and then you come in and pretend like I said the exact opposite, repeatedly and even after I show to the world that you're the dishonest party in the discussion, and now _I_ have to be responsible for the "actions" you made up for me?
You just refuse to properly gender them.
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