Aliens!

[Chanakya]

Came across this weird bit of news about this presentation about aliens, apparently made right in the Mexican Congress, complete with claims of actual bodies of said aliens, and photographs as well:

Links:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/13/w...ss-mexico.html

-----

I guess:

(a) The debunking thing. Easy enough to throw claims out, and easy enough to doctor a photograph or two: but clearly this guy had enough cred to power through right to Mexico's parliament (presumably a high bar, I guess --- or maybe not, I don't really know). And actually debunking something like this takes time and effort --- at the armchair level, as well as at the boots-on-ground level. The first of those two is what we used to see a lot of, in old threads from the million-dollar-challenge days. So if people are interested enough to dig further, then go!

(b) Why would someone do something like this? Is the guy literally crazy? He's sure to be outed, sooner or later, so what's the point? Or maybe he's hoping to get enough fame/notoriety/celebrity-of-a-kind to make some money?

(c) Or... (dramatic whisper) ...are those actually aliens?!

-----

NASA weighs in (simply in terms of asking for clear data, what else can they say after all if they're to be strictly objective):

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-66791954

[The Great Zaganza]

Extraordinary Claims require more than one source.

[8enotto]

There is no infinite re-election in Mexico so the dude bringing it up is a bit of a loon or a believer. It's common here.

They can't find money to get the promised free books into schools or medicines into state run hospitals.

It's all bluster and a waste of time. What can they even do about these alien things?

The volcano they claim is a portal to the underworld is visible from my home. Neither I nor the government monitors all over the mountain top detect them, I salute the aliens on the cloaking tech and beating physics.
Neither of which Jaime Maussan wants to explain in detail.

[PitPat]

Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza

Extraordinary Claims require more than one source.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Chanakya

but clearly this guy had enough cred to power through right to Mexico's parliament (presumably a high bar, I guess --- or maybe not, I don't really know).

Instead of thinking of it as Mexico's parliament endorsing the claim, think of it as the claim indicting Mexico's parliament.

[Chanakya]

Originally Posted by 8enotto

There is no infinite re-election in Mexico so the dude bringing it up is a bit of a loon or a believer. It's common here.

Oh. I mean, wouldn't they need to clear some basic hurdles, some basic bar, to make it there? (Not doubting you, I'm sure you know how things are over there.)

Quote:

They can't find money to get the promised free books into schools or medicines into state run hospitals.

It's all bluster and a waste of time. What can they even do about these alien things?

The volcano they claim is a portal to the underworld is visible from my home. Neither I nor the government monitors all over the mountain top detect them, I salute the aliens on the cloaking tech and beating physics.
Neither of which Jaime Maussan wants to explain in detail.

Didn't know all of those details. Just this little snippet that caught my eye, well specifically the pics, and the fact that it was part of a presentation made to the Congress over there. So there's a whole "underworld" thing there, is it? As far as the claims I mean? Interesting!

[Chanakya]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Instead of thinking of it as Mexico's parliament endorsing the claim, think of it as the claim indicting Mexico's parliament.

Either the one or the other, I guess. You're right: 8enotto, who would know I guess, seems to think that as well.

[Chanakya]

https://apnews.com/article/extraterr...c39d899c457c76


Doesn't say much more, this link I mean to say, but apparently the guy, Maussan, has pulled stunts like this before. What stunts exactly isn't specificed, though. Apparently he "has talked to the Virgin of Guadalupe", as well. (Shouldn't it be the other way around, though, the grammar I mean? In terms of etiquette, when referring to people having conversations with the Virgin of Guadalupe?)

"Believing or not was up to each member of the legislative body, but those who testified had to swear an oath to tell the truth." And I guess if it's proved that he was lying after having sworn the oath to tell the truth, then ...something? Jail maybe? It's impressive, how completely brazenly he's doing this.


-----

Just happened to catch my eye, this thing. Not much out there so far. I guess this must be first-page news in Mexico, even if not actually large headlines? And reported more in depth?

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Chanakya

Either the one or the other, I guess. You're right: 8enotto, who would know I guess, seems to think that as well.

Holy ****. You really do think there's a realistic chance that someone presented real aliens to the Mexican parliament.

[Chanakya]

Originally Posted by theprestige

Holy ****. You really do think there's a realistic chance that someone presented real aliens to the Mexican parliament.

How do you figure that?

[Pixel42]

Already being discussed on another thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post14161308

[novaphile]

And... Just to reinforce what has already been mentioned in that thread.

Weird skull shapes, in a region that has a long history of 'skull shaping'* does not, aliens, make.

* Binding babies heads, including binding heads to rigid boards, to cause fashionable deformations of the skull.

[angrysoba]

It was pretty unbelievable that those hideous pair of frauds were wheeled into the Congress. I hope the electorate are suitably ashamed to see these obvious fakes that look like ET made of papier-mâché.

But enough about MTG and Lauren Boebert, did you see what they did in Mexico?

[smartcooky]

[theprestige]

Originally Posted by Chanakya

How do you figure that?

What's the point of this thread, otherwise? What's the point of you running the cautious slow play, otherwise? This is either a believer thread or a troll thread. I'm seeing troll and raising. Either you call with believer or fold with troll.

[Apathia]

Originally Posted by theprestige

What's the point of this thread, otherwise? What's the point of you running the cautious slow play, otherwise? This is either a believer thread or a troll thread. I'm seeing troll and raising. Either you call with believer or fold with troll.

IT could be a Looky-loo thread.
Looky-loo! Here's the latest silly "ET!" debacle.
Looky-loo! Here's the latest "Nessie!"
Looky-loo! Here's the latest "Sasquatch!"

Cheap skeptic's forum entertainment.

[MBDK]

Originally Posted by theprestige

What's the point of this thread, otherwise? What's the point of you running the cautious slow play, otherwise? This is either a believer thread or a troll thread. I'm seeing troll and raising. Either you call with believer or fold with troll.

Besides the fact that the thread does NOT have to have an either/or foundation, I think you have wildly misinterpreted one of Chanakya's posts.

You wrote:

Originally Posted by theprestige

Instead of thinking of it as Mexico's parliament endorsing the claim, think of it as the claim indicting Mexico's parliament.

To which Chanakya replied:

Originally Posted by Chanakya

Either the one or the other, I guess. You're right: 8enotto, who would know I guess, seems to think that as well.

It is pretty obvious to me that the post Chanakya replied to provided two options. Either someone could claim Mexico's parliament endorsed the claim, or the claim is an indictment of Mexico's parliament. Chanakya merely agreed with that position, but made no declaration as to siding one way or the other regarding THE PARLIAMENT OF MEXICO'S status in relation to the whole presentation. You can have a different belief in what Mexico's parliament thinks than what you personally think about a subject.

[Chanakya]

Originally Posted by theprestige

What's the point of this thread, otherwise? What's the point of you running the cautious slow play, otherwise? This is either a believer thread or a troll thread. I'm seeing troll and raising. Either you call with believer or fold with troll.

The OP makes the purpose clear.

This post, though? Afraid it reads like a troll post, or maybe a congenitally backside hole post. Or maybe, to be charitable, a hasn't gotten laid this year post.

I mean, what's the purpose of this post otherwise, right? I'm calling troll myself, but no, I'm not raising. Not beyond this move. Life's too short. You'll have to go elsewhere to feed, after this, sorry.


ETA: Like MBDK says. Not sure what your grouse is, I was agreeing with you there. If you absolutely needed to vent ...something, for whatever reason, and unprovoked-snark away, then you should've gone with something less stupid. Like Apathia says, maybe? Cheap? Bang on target! Agreed, this was a pretty low effort thread, to get the conversation (and the debunking) started, should people want to.

[Chanakya]

Originally Posted by Pixel42

Already being discussed on another thread:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post14161308

Yep, just checked that thread.

That skull shaping thing? Hadn't heard of that. Apparently it's been suggested that the fakery may not be simply a matter of cooking up some weird pics. Involves actual bodies, apparently.

Haven't commented there, nothing to add, I really know no more than the little that's on this thread, but I've put that thread in my Subscriptions. Shouldn't take too long to clearly debunk this thing, I'm thinking, even if it so happens he's got skulls actually "shaped" like that (how weird is that). And given he's done the high stakes thing of taking it to their Congress, I guess people will look into it, instead of it getting quietly forgotten in a few days or weeks?

[Pixel42]

Originally Posted by Chanakya

And given he's done the high stakes thing of taking it to their Congress, I guess people will look into it, instead of it getting quietly forgotten in a few days or weeks?

My guess is that, now the believers who had the clout to get this nonsense brought before Congress have been indulged, the adults can go back to ignoring it for at least a few years.

And that goes for both the US and the Mexican Congress.

[Puppycow]

Originally Posted by 8enotto

The volcano they claim is a portal to the underworld is visible from my home. Neither I nor the government monitors all over the mountain top detect them, I salute the aliens on the cloaking tech and beating physics.
Neither of which Jaime Maussan wants to explain in detail.

Oooh, there's a portal to the underworld too! I haven't really looked beyond the paper mache E.T. "corpses which look like they were made by school children.

Even Ryan Graves, a UFO promoter himself who was present at the hearing, called it "a huge step backwards" and an "unsubstantiated stunt".

[dann]

Quote:

Beginning to suspect we're going to be hearing about how Grusch, Graves, and others were taken in by Russian disinformation very soon
Robert Skvarla (Twitter/X, Sep 13, 2023)

Includes tweets from Clint Ehrlich.

[8enotto]

The only bar to getting into office in Mexico is undetectable corruption and popular vote. Any idiot brazen enough can do it. Then steal all you can in the one term you get and prepare the getaway to Aruba.

To me this all was useless showboating of a pet interest.

Many believe, it's the 3rd religion in Mexico after christians and soccer. Skywatchers is a huge and loose group with cameras pointed up into the blue, and mostly over Mexico City do they catch the best unexplained video. Not counting of course a load of random light sources, smog, cloud refraction and personal bias.
Then they get on TV for it. Pretty strong influence to stay uninformed.
How can they see spacecraft entering a magma column on the volcano from miles away when government monitors on the rim of it only see it gassing off with no surface disruption?
It's all willful ignorance.

The Peruvian govt also seen evidence of deformed skull and long three fingered hands aliens right in their congress chamber. Mummies and all. Then they refused to leave the evidence in the hands of professional mummy experts because the finders need to study them more.
All this after the fraudster who made them from regular human mummies made a video showing how he did it.
Jaime Maussan was knee deep in that mess too.

[Solitaire]

The Alien Autopsy Has Begun

[Puppycow]

Awesome!

[Chanakya]

Originally Posted by novaphile

And... Just to reinforce what has already been mentioned in that thread.

Weird skull shapes, in a region that has a long history of 'skull shaping'* does not, aliens, make.

* Binding babies heads, including binding heads to rigid boards, to cause fashionable deformations of the skull.

****. Double ****.

I hadn’t even heard of this skull “shaping” business before this. That the Peruvians did this as a matter of course was an interesting snippet I learned in the course of this thread. But I’d assumed that’s something they did to the mummies. I mean, you’re embalming and hocus-pocusing and entombing the body of the king, or priest, or whoever, and what’s more packing in goodies for them to use, and wives and concubines and armies as well; so okay, while you’re at it you also file away their skull, and their hands also, why not. It’s completely weird, sure, but making mummies of them in the expectation that they’ll resume life afterwards, that’s weird too, so this weirdness doesn’t really stand out particularly.

But when I checked a bit (cursorily, a quick look at a few articles that Google threw up, just now), I see that they did this skull shaping things to people who were still alive, and not to the mummies! How utterly horrible is that! (Not that that has anything to do with religion per se, apparently, more a social-status thing, or so a quick look-through seems to indicate.)

I’d heard of the Chinese strapping young girls’ feet to have them, the feet, all small and dainty. I suppose this is something like that. But it’s …ewww-inducing, this thing, about “shaping” skulls, not of mummies but of live babies and children!


(This won’t be news to you, clearly you know about this already, but still, a link: https://www.iflscience.com/why-ancie...t-aliens-46179)


…Oh, and apparently it isn’t something done only in Peru. This article says “skull elongation” was practiced across different cultures, all over the world, not just in the Americas but also in Africa, and the Far East, and, yes, in Europe as well. Wow.

[Chanakya]

Originally Posted by 8enotto

The only bar to getting into office in Mexico is undetectable corruption and popular vote. Any idiot brazen enough can do it. Then steal all you can in the one term you get and prepare the getaway to Aruba.

To me this all was useless showboating of a pet interest.

Many believe, it's the 3rd religion in Mexico after christians and soccer. Skywatchers is a huge and loose group with cameras pointed up into the blue, and mostly over Mexico City do they catch the best unexplained video. Not counting of course a load of random light sources, smog, cloud refraction and personal bias.
Then they get on TV for it. Pretty strong influence to stay uninformed.
How can they see spacecraft entering a magma column on the volcano from miles away when government monitors on the rim of it only see it gassing off with no surface disruption?
It's all willful ignorance.

The Peruvian govt also seen evidence of deformed skull and long three fingered hands aliens right in their congress chamber. Mummies and all. Then they refused to leave the evidence in the hands of professional mummy experts because the finders need to study them more.
All this after the fraudster who made them from regular human mummies made a video showing how he did it.
Jaime Maussan was knee deep in that mess too.

As far as “bar”, I’d meant a certain minimum level, a minimal quality, as far as the thing itself, the content of the presentation itself, in order for it to make to that (presumably august) platform; and not so much a bar for the candidates in terms of getting elected. But I suppose that is, in effect, the same thing, in that they’re probably closely correlated, those two: if you get the foolish and the ignorant and the corrupt elected, then they in turn will likely enough take these nonsensical ideas seriously (or else maybe pretend to, to pander to their gullible votebanks).

I’d asked about the situation in Mexico because I wasn’t really aware, but it isn’t as if other places are any different! I mean, take the US, right? Same thing, more or less, even as things stand right now! …And imagine, if Trump had managed to get in again last time, or, FSM forbid, should he get manage to get his foul butt in through the door next time, then one shudders to think what might be the state of affairs under this vilest and stupidest head-of-state to ever have besmirched high office in the US, and his cross-eyed spineless supporters and hangers-on: I’ve no doubt we’ll end up discussing completely whacko things being done in the US government then, and telling ourselves that the US isn’t unique in this respect, and maybe bringing up this aliens weirdness in Mexico as example!


----------

In any case, this nonsense, is it really any more nonsensical than the other kinds of nonsense that people believe? Those cargo cults, for instance: When Christian missionaries went down there to “civilize” these savages, and questioned them about their absurd beliefs about John Frum returning to them despite not having done that for decades together, apparently they in turn were asked, in all earnestness, why John Frum taking mere decades was unreasonable, given that the missionaries were waiting literally millennia for their messiah to return.

What I’m saying is, while all of this mummies-and-aliens business appears completely cock-eyed, but it’s not one bit more so than the absurd beliefs that Jesus-worshiping half-wits entertain. Or Allah-worshiping idiots, or …Vishnu-worshiping loons, or whoever else. Belief in the nonsense of Christianity is no less laughable really than belief in aliens, after all, right?!


----------

What’s that you say there, the part about the guy/s who’d doctored these mummies having actually admitted to having done that? Why’d they do that, then, admit to doing this? And if they’ve already admitted to fraud, then that’s the end to this whole business right there, surely?

[Chanakya]

Originally Posted by Solitaire

The Alien Autopsy Has Begun

Hahaha, priceless!

[Chanakya]

A bunch of Mexico's scientists had a conference where this thing was discussed.

Heh, both POVs were expressed at the conference. What Pixel42 said a few posts up, and she was perfectly justified in saying it, was reflected there: “Faced with the serious problems we are experiencing in Mexico and the entire planet, starting with climate change, war, and pandemics, it is sad to gather to talk about the misdeeds of a professional charlatan.”

On the other hand, I think differently, and more to the point, and regardless of what I think --- not about the truth value of the aliens claim, that's obvious, I mean what I think about which should be the right course of action, ignore it, or actively 'solve' the case --- regardless of what I think about that, what I expect would be reasonable for the Mexican government/ scientific community to think and to do, was voiced there as well: “(The claims had) made scientific rationality in Mexico the subject of ridicule... What is at stake here is whether our country will follow science or superstitions and quackery.”

Link: https://www.wired.com/story/mexico-f...nce-fightback/

(Like I said, the article doesn't spell out anything concrete they did, though, to set the debunking ball rolling. Just talk, seems like.)


-----

Circling back to what I think, as far as what should be done, I firmly believe that this should be debunked. Not ignored, but clearly examined and very clearly debunked. Not just forgotten about and moved on from. That's, like, kind of exactly what the whole Million Dollar Challenge was about, right? Kind of exactly what a not insubstantial part of the whole skeptical thing is about, which is (not exclusively, maybe not necessarily even primarily, but certainly not insubstantially) about, and that is debunking fallacious and often fraudulent claims that the gullible might be taken in by.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Solitaire

The Alien Autopsy Has Begun

Cellular Peptide cake.... with mint frosting!

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by Solitaire

The Alien Autopsy Has Begun

Not very appetizing, needs more food coloring ... among other things.

[Ethan Thane Athen]

Originally Posted by Chanakya

****. Double ****.

I hadn’t even heard of this skull “shaping” business before this. That the Peruvians did this as a matter of course was an interesting snippet I learned in the course of this thread. But I’d assumed that’s something they did to the mummies. I mean, you’re embalming and hocus-pocusing and entombing the body of the king, or priest, or whoever, and what’s more packing in goodies for them to use, and wives and concubines and armies as well; so okay, while you’re at it you also file away their skull, and their hands also, why not. It’s completely weird, sure, but making mummies of them in the expectation that they’ll resume life afterwards, that’s weird too, so this weirdness doesn’t really stand out particularly.

But when I checked a bit (cursorily, a quick look at a few articles that Google threw up, just now), I see that they did this skull shaping things to people who were still alive, and not to the mummies! How utterly horrible is that! (Not that that has anything to do with religion per se, apparently, more a social-status thing, or so a quick look-through seems to indicate.)

I’d heard of the Chinese strapping young girls’ feet to have them, the feet, all small and dainty. I suppose this is something like that. But it’s …ewww-inducing, this thing, about “shaping” skulls, not of mummies but of live babies and children!


(This won’t be news to you, clearly you know about this already, but still, a link: https://www.iflscience.com/why-ancie...t-aliens-46179)


…Oh, and apparently it isn’t something done only in Peru. This article says “skull elongation” was practiced across different cultures, all over the world, not just in the Americas but also in Africa, and the Far East, and, yes, in Europe as well. Wow.

And incredibly, some cultures still chop bits off baby's dicks

ETA: Sorry, couldn't resist...

[dlorde]

Originally Posted by Solitaire

The Alien Autopsy Has Begun

Wonderful!

[dudalb]

Aliens...the movie is better then the thread.

[smartcooky]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

Not very appetizing, needs more food coloring ... among other things.

yeah... "Let them eat cake"

[8enotto]

The Peruvian who modified the mummies didn't do himself but showed how soaking a mummy in water and reshaping hands and feet into three long 7 jointed fingers was possible.
To put a name and face to it is maga stupid in scale. It's a serious crime. He released his video before the people that "found" the mummies presented them to Peruvian government folks. Then they scooped it all up and ran when it was declared a cultural crime and ran.
I understand the Peruvian govt has some of the material now anyway. The mini mummies are best. One has no knee joints. Another has gold metal disks inside the body. It's art more than archeological finds.

It was very publicized for a bit until someone demanded they turn them over and start telling truths, not stories of odd aliens. There is a thread here somewhere too, with links.