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Tags murder cases , Oscar Pistorius , South Africa cases

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Old 21st April 2016, 02:04 AM   #521
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This is an interesting addition to the case:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=11626623
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Old 21st April 2016, 06:07 AM   #522
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Oscar has been denied leave to appeal his conviction finally, and may face 15 years, though who knows what Masipa can do. I would have thought discretion for her is gone.

The situation remains most unsatisfactory. If he knew he was shooting Reeva the sentence looks fair to on the light side.
But if he thought he was shooting an intruder, all we have is a deterrent sentence and two lives destroyed for the price of a mistake.

The appeal court did not deal with whether the probabilities were that Oscar knew it was Reeva. That was not their job. Although if one watched the appeal, they were quite skeptical, and Oscar's lawyer knew they would lose.

Ask yourself these questions.

Given that Oscar is supposed to be a high strung nervous person about break-ins, why did he not wake when Reeva got up (in the dark?), dressed, and got here cell-phone?

Why did Oscar not put his hand out to warn Reeva that she should keep quiet while he went to investigate?

Why was the evidence regarding the state of Reeva's side of the bed ignored by the High Court judge?

He said he screamed like a girl. When a man screams in a high pitched voice of fear, he still cannot match the pitch of a woman doing the same thing. The opinions of the witnesses were ignored.

Comment: When a person has "accidentally shot an intruder" they have usually been startled by a sudden appearance of a person. Oscar pleaded startle reaction to a sound but the person was behind a closed door and he was more than awake.

Does anyone think OJ was innocent? Money buys good legal council to fabricate a story.

Oscar would have done better to confess, and plead temporary insanity due to a domestic dispute. He would have saved himself money, got some sympathy, and probably a lesser sentence. 15 years is too light because he will be out after 5 years. Even less if a minister gets involved. Lying miserable SOB. No, I am not biased - that is what I think because he is clearly guilty!
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Old 21st April 2016, 06:33 AM   #523
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
This is an interesting addition to the case:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=11626623

Thanks for that. I was in NZ and attended a sentencing hearing for a man who had stabbed his wife to death. The reason was the judge was to hear a case a friend was involved in, and I wanted to assess the judge.

The man called the police who met him at the door. He was bloody. He said his wife was dead in the living room and he thinks he stabbed her, but had no recollection. His finger prints were on the knife. Found guilty, the judge said that typically he should get 10-12 years.

But the wife's sister said she had been visiting him in jail, and had forgiven him completely. He expressed a lot of remorse. No priors. The years came down to 4 1/2, with 2 already served. As he walked out the sister went up to him and the relationship between them became clear. The sister was besotted with him.

As far as I am concerned, they plotted a way to get rid of the wife so they could pursue their affair. (And not have to split the marital assets). The Judge must have seen it too, but NZ jails are way too full. He could not care about justice.

The man and his wife made a living from selling porn in their adult shop, just so you can judge what kind of characters one is dealing with. And they did drugs.
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Old 21st April 2016, 12:39 PM   #524
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Do you have a cite for that?
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Old 21st April 2016, 02:32 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Do you have a cite for that?
Which part? The porn? That stuff is all over the internet, what do you need a cite for?


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Old 21st April 2016, 02:34 PM   #526
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Photos in the Daily Mail

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rts-claim.html

It looks like the original prosecution scenario fits better by the shape and defined edges of the wounds.

I can see him being a loose unit, but beating her on the back with a cricket bat looks far fetched.
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Old 21st April 2016, 06:48 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
I can see him being a loose unit, but beating her on the back with a cricket bat looks far fetched.
Why?

He was known to have an extreme temper.

He was known to have violent proclivities.

Men are known to beat their wives/girlfriends/etc.

Why would it be far-fetched to have a bloke beating up a chick? Especially given the rumours of another bloke - which is more than enough for some specimens of the male persuasion.
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Old 21st April 2016, 07:02 PM   #528
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I don't consider it far fetched but I am a little suspicious about this being introduced so late in the trial process.
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Old 21st April 2016, 08:33 PM   #529
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Were they looking hard at the time?

Chick blown to pieces by soft-nosed bullets, how hard do you look for bruises?
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Old 22nd April 2016, 02:25 AM   #530
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Were they looking hard at the time?

Chick blown to pieces by soft-nosed bullets, how hard do you look for bruises?

I seem to remember the testimony about the bruising, so I looked it up.

These two articles are interesting. There are serious weaknesses in SA's current police-work. {{Aside - A friend's factory was burgled. The finger-print expert was so useless he could not even find a print on a item I deliberately handled. He could not find a fingerprint anywhere. I think he was using copier toner powder.}}

Of course, conjecture to sell a book could be the motive for the speculation.

They rightly point out that the judge did not visit the house to see how close it was to the voice-identification witnesses.

Quote:
http://www.sabc.co.za/news/a/b7b0618...cks-and-breast
Model and law graduate Reeva Steenkamp sustained bruising to her back, buttocks and breast, the High Court in Pretoria heard on Monday.

Pathologist Gert Saayman said Steenkamp had two scratches on her back. This could have been caused by a blunt object or shrapnel.

Her right buttock was bluish in colour.

Saayman said this could have stemmed from the injury that Steenkamp had sustained on her right hip, where a bullet had penetrated.
Quote:
http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/artic.../#.VxnqOzFkngA
The Molletts have just published their third book, Oscar vs The Truth (Piquet Publishers) and have drawn several shocking conclusions in relation to Reevaís murder, including that two oval abrasions that were found on her back appeared to match the corner of the Lazer bat Pistorius said he had used to bash down the door after shooting.

This would suggest, say the brothers, that Reeva sustained this injury, as well as other bruises on her body that were overlooked or unexplained in the pathologistís report and testimony, during a heated, life-and-death struggle that took place in Pistoriusís house before Reeva sought refuge from a raging Pistorius by locking herself in the bathroom.
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Old 22nd April 2016, 03:20 AM   #531
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
Were they looking hard at the time?

Chick blown to pieces by soft-nosed bullets, how hard do you look for bruises?
Actually you should. . . .I have been listening to Real Crime Profiles and one of the hosts is Laura Richards - Formerly of New Scotland Yards and a domestic abuse specialist. She would certainly argue that one should get such evidence.

I was willing to entertain the argument that he did not know whom was in the bathroom but I was doubtful. Assuming that she had bruising, that absolutely slams that door and it is the equivalent of first degree murder.
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Old 22nd April 2016, 03:47 AM   #532
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Actually you should. . . .I have been listening to Real Crime Profiles and one of the hosts is Laura Richards - Formerly of New Scotland Yards and a domestic abuse specialist. She would certainly argue that one should get such evidence.

I was willing to entertain the argument that he did not know whom was in the bathroom but I was doubtful. Assuming that she had bruising, that absolutely slams that door and it is the equivalent of first degree murder.
Except the prosecution said those bruises were consistent with falling after being shot, and of course Oscar carried her here and there in a panic, any such handling possibly resulting in bruising from adrenaline fueled urgency.
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Old 22nd April 2016, 06:09 PM   #533
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At trial the prosecution actually argued the back bruises came from a shot that missed her, struck a wall of the cubicle and that the fragments then struck Reeva Steenkamp in the back causing the bruising. The defense contended the bruises were caused by Steenkamp falling into a magazine rack after she was struck by the first shot (which broke her right hipbone).

Quote:
In highly aggressive exchanges, Pistorius’s defence counsel Barry Roux repeatedly suggested wounds on Ms Steenkamp’s back came from the magazine rack, not from secondary bullet fragments, and that their own expert analysis will show that. Captain Mangena, a respected ballistics expert with 20 years experience, stated more than ten times, that “I disagree.” news link
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Old 22nd April 2016, 06:25 PM   #534
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Clearly the case can turn on this evidence. I would like to see the magazine rack, and other objects that would deliver those bruises in a fall. I reject the notion it was a bat to the back. I think employing the bat twice for different parts of the theory is far fetched. The rubber on the handle could easily be torn without needing a struggle. I think we need to keep searching for some data point that is unambiguous, so far it is conjecture. If his story is true a correct account can be written. This is always the way, as in David Bain, and so on. The truth is like dominos toppling, one end to the other.
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Old 13th June 2016, 12:53 AM   #535
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Just bumping this to point out that the sentencing hearing starts today, and could last about a week. There is no appeal possible.

BBC
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Old 13th June 2016, 01:19 AM   #536
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Facing 15 years. Any less would be a disgrace.
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Old 13th June 2016, 01:46 AM   #537
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Mitigation could reduce it, plus of course, time-served. I'll take a stab at 12 years, less time served, which means say 10 years.......out in about 5. I don't know whether murderers get the option of serving some of the sentence at home. All in all, that looks a bit lenient to me.
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Old 13th June 2016, 02:08 AM   #538
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The latest episode of Real Crime Profiles talks about the case in terms of domestic abuse.
https://soundcloud.com/real-crime-pr...scar-pistorius
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Old 13th June 2016, 04:05 AM   #539
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Let us hope fiction never obscures the facts. A scared man in obsessivly defending his paramour tragically kills her.
Pistorious is innocent of the charge.

Last edited by Samson; 13th June 2016 at 04:13 AM.
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Old 13th June 2016, 04:36 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Let us hope fiction never obscures the facts. A scared man in obsessivly defending his paramour tragically kills her.
Pistorious is innocent of the charge.
Provably incorrect.

Come on, do a Fonzie. You are wrong. Admit it.
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Old 13th June 2016, 05:50 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Let us hope fiction never obscures the facts. A scared man in obsessivly defending his paramour tragically kills her.
I agree with you 100%, but....


Originally Posted by Samson View Post
Pistorious is innocent of the charge.
......this conclusion does not follow. Even if you think Attila the Hun or Vlad the Impaler is behind a closed door, firing through it turns you into a murderer.
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Old 13th June 2016, 07:34 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Provably incorrect.

Come on, do a Fonzie. You are wrong. Admit it.
Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
I agree with you 100%, but....




......this conclusion does not follow. Even if you think Attila the Hun or Vlad the Impaler is behind a closed door, firing through it turns you into a murderer.
So time served is fine because he will never kill again.
Why is this not front and center here?
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Old 13th June 2016, 07:36 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Provably incorrect.

Come on, do a Fonzie. You are wrong. Admit it.
Except I think there is available anamnestic proof of mistaken identity.
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Old 13th June 2016, 07:50 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
So time served is fine because he will never kill again.
Why is this not front and center here?
Because bizarrely you insist on endlessly dragging us back to the silly notion that the guy is innocent. We have to discuss it over and over, ad infinitum, because you fail to grasp the simple principle that you can't just kill people you are frightened of, and just because someone is in your house doesn't give you the right to kill them. He is a murderer. You're the only person left on the planet who can't see that. The rest of us, whatever motivations we think he may or may not have had, are reconciled to the law: he's a murdererer awaiting sentence.
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Old 13th June 2016, 07:57 AM   #545
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Because bizarrely you insist on endlessly dragging us back to the silly notion that the guy is innocent. We have to discuss it over and over, ad infinitum, because you fail to grasp the simple principle that you can't just kill people you are frightened of, and just because someone is in your house doesn't give you the right to kill them. He is a murderer. You're the only person left on the planet who can't see that. The rest of us, whatever motivations we think he may or may not have had, are reconciled to the law: he's a murdererer awaiting sentence.
You realise you hold the least common ground, mistaken identity yet murderer.
A very large majority says killed girl friend in hot blood.
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Old 13th June 2016, 08:02 AM   #546
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
You realise you hold the least common ground, mistaken identity yet murderer.
A very large majority says killed girl friend in hot blood.
You're on the least common ground. You claim innocence. I claim he had exactly the same motivation as you claim......but the fact is, the law in SA does not allow you kill people if you aren't in imminent danger.
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Old 13th June 2016, 08:48 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
You're on the least common ground. You claim innocence. I claim he had exactly the same motivation as you claim......but the fact is, the law in SA does not allow you kill people if you aren't in imminent danger.
Personally, I think he knew he was shooting at his girlfriend through the door but I don't think that is provable.
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Old 14th June 2016, 11:53 AM   #548
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*Trigger Warning*

Poor Oscar now has PTSD from murdering his girlfriend.

Or, much more likely, having been nailed for it is causing his PTSD. The over-privileged little twat thought he could get away with murder. It must've been hell finding out that was wrong.

The boy belongs in a hospital, not a prison. This story is just so sad I'm blinking back tears. I think we should start a change.org petition to ensure he gets the help he needs.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=11656565
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Old 14th June 2016, 11:57 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by Desert Fox View Post
Personally, I think he knew he was shooting at his girlfriend through the door but I don't think that is provable.
My view as well.
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Old 14th June 2016, 11:57 AM   #550
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Originally Posted by Samson View Post
So time served is fine because he will never kill again.
Even assuming your reading of the events: Why do you assume he will never kill again?

Do you think he no longer suffers from fear? If so why?
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Old 14th June 2016, 12:27 PM   #551
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Originally Posted by MikeG View Post
Because bizarrely you insist on endlessly dragging us back to the silly notion that the guy is innocent. We have to discuss it over and over, ad infinitum, because you fail to grasp the simple principle that you can't just kill people you are frightened of, and just because someone is in your house doesn't give you the right to kill them. He is a murderer. You're the only person left on the planet who can't see that. The rest of us, whatever motivations we think he may or may not have had, are reconciled to the law: he's a murdererer awaiting sentence.
Well, technically you can in the U.S.

ETA: Which, I might say, I am quite satisfied with.
If Oscar had been in the U.S. I suppose he would have had an acceptable defense.

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Old 14th June 2016, 11:34 PM   #552
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
Even assuming your reading of the events: Why do you assume he will never kill again?

Do you think he no longer suffers from fear? If so why?
Indeed. He has shown his hot-headed, wreckless temperament many times.
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Old 16th June 2016, 12:02 PM   #553
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Originally Posted by The Atheist View Post
*Trigger Warning*

Poor Oscar now has PTSD from murdering his girlfriend.

Or, much more likely, having been nailed for it is causing his PTSD. The over-privileged little twat thought he could get away with murder. It must've been hell finding out that was wrong.

The boy belongs in a hospital, not a prison. This story is just so sad I'm blinking back tears. I think we should start a change.org petition to ensure he gets the help he needs.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ectid=11656565
Yeah, that's enough to make me cry. Boo-hoo for poor Oscar. And here his uncle wants him to work with under privledged children, instead of being incarcerated.

Can't help but think about the woman he murdered and how she will never have children, or a life of any kind.
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Old 18th June 2016, 05:02 AM   #554
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There is no doubt Reeva ate after midnight on stomach contents. If they were heard screaming at each other at 1 am this is tough for Pistorius, because he lied about that event.
This does not prove he hunted her into a bathroom and shot her 2 hours later however, because he would lie about that 1 am argument when considering they would be highly inculpatory, but to an innocent Pistorius, irrelevant, and indeed not known to anyone but himself.
Stomach contents are very very important in these matters because they show who is manufacturing evidence.

Last edited by Samson; 18th June 2016 at 05:04 AM.
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Old 18th June 2016, 12:21 PM   #555
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One thing about recent developments sickens me.

Reeva's parents have asked that the photos of her injuries be released.

Obviously, the vultures of the the world's media have been all over it, and the freshly-murdered pics are now forever embedded in the internet.

What the hell for?

What purpose is there in anyone outside of the court seeing those pictures? They don't change the facts, and it's just sop to a media that already largely thrives on disaster- and violence-porn.

Reeva's parents are not doing anyone a favour here, except perhaps appeasing a guilty conscience. An absurd decision.
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Old 22nd June 2016, 07:08 PM   #556
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...fe-behind-bars

Pistorius gave an interview on ITV that will be aired Friday.

Quote:
News of the ITV interview clearly annoyed the state prosecutor Gerry Nel, who told the court it gave the lie to the claim that the athlete was unable to testify, adding that it was “disrespectful”.
The Atheist:

Quote:
Reeva's parents are not doing anyone a favour here, except perhaps appeasing a guilty conscience. An absurd decision
Who is appeasing their guilty conscience?
Are the parents guilty of something?
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Old 22nd June 2016, 07:15 PM   #557
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Originally Posted by snoop_doxie View Post
Who is appeasing their guilty conscience?
Are the parents guilty of something?
Not trying to stop their daughter going out with a psycho, maybe?

I'm surmising, because I think public release of the post mortem photos is a bizarre thing to do.
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Old 23rd June 2016, 12:46 AM   #558
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The original timeline was for a new sentence by last Friday. Does anyone have any idea when we can expect it?
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Old 23rd June 2016, 03:40 AM   #559
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This report by Oscar is interesting. I guess as usual, it won't change anyone's mind as to whether he thought it was Reeva or an intruder, certainly it confirms for me he thought it was an intruder.

"And I'm scared; I'm terrified and I get my firearm and I say to Reeva, I said, 'call the police and get down on the floor. Call the police and get down on the floor'. But I'm still whispering at this stage.

"The first thing was thinking that I need to grab my firearm

"Basically on one of my hands, both my stumps and pointing the firearm. So I'm low down and I'm starting to shake and sweating and become.. Overcome with fear.

"And at that point I just entered into the passage and I start shouting and I start screaming get the ****** out of my house. Get out of my house. And I start screaming. And the more I start screaming the more scared I'm actually getting. The more like... the more, the more real this is feeling."


and

"Why didn't she shout at me from the toilet and all these things. I can't say, why did she do them, she didn't do anything wrong. But it's difficult. It's difficult to know if one of those small things didn't happen that the situation would be different. And I would still have her here with me."

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news...ectid=11662145
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Old 23rd June 2016, 03:56 AM   #560
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I'd personally take more notice of his sworn testimony in a courtroom where it is subject to cross examination, than to an interview in which he gets the opportunity to present whatever version of his story is foremost in his mind at the time, without contradiction. I also think it interesting that he is supposedly too emotionally unstable to be able to speak in court at the moment, yet he is fine to do an in depth TV interview.
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