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Tags LGBT issues , transgender incidents

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Old 27th July 2018, 08:58 AM   #121
ahhell
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Apart from that, I've never heard of such an example. Now, Muslims don't have a problem with handling pork, only with eating it, and I'm pretty sure that applies to Jews as well.
I'm no expert on Jewish or Muslim rules but I don't think this is true, at least not universally so. I believe that some muslim's and Jews do indeed object to handling pork.

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Old 27th July 2018, 09:09 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
People have to be allowed to not be forced to do something against their will.
Absolutely. So we should immediately stop the practice of forcing people to be pharmacists against their will. No longer should we tolerate teams kidnapping people in the night and trapping them behind CVS counters.

Oh no wait... I'm being told we don't do that.
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Old 27th July 2018, 09:54 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
Some people like to pick at old scabs.

"It'll never get better if you pick it."
Dodge duly noted.
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Old 27th July 2018, 10:09 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Absolutely. So we should immediately stop the practice of forcing people to be pharmacists against their will. No longer should we tolerate teams kidnapping people in the night and trapping them behind CVS counters.

Oh no wait... I'm being told we don't do that.
These days I wish I was trapped behind a CVS counter.

But then, there aren't enough drugs in the world to blot out the Trump administration.
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Old 27th July 2018, 10:59 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I don't think he's equating the two as both evil. Merely pointing out an obvious situation where acting in accordance with the rules was not the ethical choice so, professional codes of ethics should occasionally be over ridden by personal codes of ethics. ...
And that's the ridiculousness I am questioning.
Vixen is trying to use a situation involving soldiers complicit in genocide to try to justify a pharmacist (not a doctor) dispensing (not prescribing) hormone pills to a trans person. It is a ridiculous attempt to justify religious bigotry.
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Old 27th July 2018, 11:47 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You appear to be making the common error of assuming that atheists and agnostics have no such scruples.

It is not necessarily a religious scruple either. I know people who are so incensed at what they see is ill-treatment towards animals they have become vegan. To others, that is an extreme position.

People have to be allowed to not be forced to do something against their will.
And I bet none of your vegan friends apply for jobs in slaughterhouses and butcher shops.

ETA, I see ddt already made the same point. Which seems to have been conveniently ignored.
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Old 27th July 2018, 11:57 AM   #127
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Exactly.

There's no moral dilemma (at least on society's part) about some occupational choice and their religious beliefs coming into conflict.

This idea that "Religious Freedom" (or the "Deeply held personal belief" codeword for same) means that a citizen can voluntarily put themselves in a position where two of their choices come into conflict and expect society to... make that not true is just assassin.

If you choose to be a pharmacist and choose to follow a religion that forbids a specific medication... you have to figure out which path to follow, not whine like a child and hold your breath until the government tells you "Okay just do both and pretend that makes sense."
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Old 27th July 2018, 01:02 PM   #128
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
People have to be allowed to not be forced to do something against their will.
In the examples being discussed here I'm seeing that there always seems to be an option, hence the individual is not "forced" to do something. Sometimes the option might be "find another line of work", but that does not mean that an option does not exist. To me, force means you have no other option.
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Old 27th July 2018, 01:05 PM   #129
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Yes when CVS starts conscripting people into their Pharmacy program against their will, we can have this discussion.

There's literally no reason to have it now.
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Old 27th July 2018, 01:15 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You appear to be making the common error of assuming that atheists and agnostics have no such scruples.
They may certainly have certain scruples but are understanding enough to either perform fully the job they signed up for or to find a different line of work.

You know, not just pretend that they're ethical, but actually being so.




Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Exactly.

There's no moral dilemma (at least on society's part) about some occupational choice and their religious beliefs coming into conflict.

This idea that "Religious Freedom" (or the "Deeply held personal belief" codeword for same) means that a citizen can voluntarily put themselves in a position where two of their choices come into conflict and expect society to... make that not true is just assassin.

If you choose to be a pharmacist and choose to follow a religion that forbids a specific medication... you have to figure out which path to follow, not whine like a child and hold your breath until the government tells you "Okay just do both and pretend that makes sense."
In My World, I'd have any person who claims any "deeply held personal belief" to show some evidence of their actions which support the claim before I'd even begin to look at the conflict under scrutiny.

For example, if it's a Christian who claims that he can discriminate against a gay couple and not bake a cake for them, he'd have to first present photos, work history, neutral witnesses that show he follows most of the rules of the holy book in order to support the "deeply held..." portion. My reasoning is that if they don't bother to follow the majority of the rules that he finds sacred, why should society exempt the one thing that happens to be a bigoted, discriminatory thing?
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Old 27th July 2018, 02:15 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
I'm no expert on Jewish or Muslim rules but I don't think this is true, at least not universally so. I believe that some muslim's and Jews do indeed object to handling pork.
I'm no expert either, and I'll happily concede the point. Which makes this whole thing even more ridiculous. There is no minority of Muslims or Jews that consciously go work in a regular butcher shop and then go about complaining they won't touch pork, but there is a loud-mouthed Christian minority that consciously goes work in pharmacies and then refuse to do part of their job.
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Old 27th July 2018, 02:48 PM   #132
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One of the things that bothers me here is the implication by the apologists for the pharmacist that such moral dilemmas might be a surprise.

I suppose there are some older pharmacists for whom the prescription of hormones for transsexuals might be new and surprising, if they're very old or have been hiding under a log. After all, people have only been having sex changes for the last 80 years or so. But in general, I think it likely that anyone who has trained in the occupation must be aware that there are instances where one or the other drug or procedure is going to conflict with individual principle. If they have not figured out a suitable way to negotiate this issue before now, including taking it up with their employer beforehand, it occurs to me to wonder, not only whether such a person is a coercive busybody trying to impose his or her religion on others, but whether that person might also be an idiot who has paid so little attention to the subject at hand that his or her competence might be open to question.
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Old 27th July 2018, 03:12 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
One of the things that bothers me here is the implication by the apologists for the pharmacist that such moral dilemmas might be a surprise.

Actually, the best part of the whole thing is that, being a Christian myself, and one who has actually studied scripture, refusing to fill a prescription for a transperson's hormone treatment is a violation of how they are commanded by Christ to behave.

But very, very few modern Evangelicals and Fundamentalist Christians even know what Christ's commandments were, let alone care about following them. Scripture has some rather harsh things to say about such people.
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Old 27th July 2018, 03:38 PM   #134
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Actually, the best part of the whole thing is that, being a Christian myself, and one who has actually studied scripture, refusing to fill a prescription for a transperson's hormone treatment is a violation of how they are commanded by Christ to behave.

But very, very few modern Evangelicals and Fundamentalist Christians even know what Christ's commandments were, let alone care about following them. Scripture has some rather harsh things to say about such people.
Well yes, that's true too. Though not a believer myself I was brought up by some very nice and intelligent Christians, of the sort you would likely like, and it's always good to remind oneself that though some here see it otherwise, and though some fundamentalists would exclude them from the lists, there are an awful lot of Christians for whom the episode in question here would simply never have been an issue. And that includes many who do indeed have a tipping point at which they would refuse to do something on principle. But then also many of those folks have traditionally been the sort who would go to jail for their principles, rather than forcing others to adopt them.
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Old 27th July 2018, 05:21 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Actually, the best part of the whole thing is that, being a Christian myself, and one who has actually studied scripture, refusing to fill a prescription for a transperson's hormone treatment is a violation of how they are commanded by Christ to behave.

But very, very few modern Evangelicals and Fundamentalist Christians even know what Christ's commandments were, let alone care about following them. Scripture has some rather harsh things to say about such people.
Thank you.
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Old 27th July 2018, 07:30 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I'm no expert either, and I'll happily concede the point. Which makes this whole thing even more ridiculous. There is no minority of Muslims or Jews that consciously go work in a regular butcher shop and then go about complaining they won't touch pork, but there is a loud-mouthed Christian minority that consciously goes work in pharmacies and then refuse to do part of their job.
Wasn't there a case where a Muslim man who worked for a grocery or the like refused to load alcohol into a woman's car? I've also heard of cases of Muslim cashiers refusing to cash out certain items, although I have not heard mention of any of those recently.
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Old 27th July 2018, 08:59 PM   #137
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I find the whole purposefully taking a job where you know you will not be able to carry out part of its role quite incredible.

The only semi-equivalent thing I can think of where I might be in the same situation is if I worked in a pharmacy and they tried to make me push homeopathy products on people who were genuinely in bad health and not just rich trendy people
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Old 28th July 2018, 04:01 AM   #138
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
I'm no expert either, and I'll happily concede the point. Which makes this whole thing even more ridiculous. There is no minority of Muslims or Jews that consciously go work in a regular butcher shop and then go about complaining they won't touch pork, but there is a loud-mouthed Christian minority that consciously goes work in pharmacies and then refuse to do part of their job.
There are. You talk as though people have a choice of job, when sometimes they are forced to take anything due to financial pressure or supplementing a lousy student grant.

I've seen people in Muslim clothing working at places like McDonalds and KFC.

I think KFC products might be Halal, but doubt McDonalds is.
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Old 28th July 2018, 04:05 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There are. You talk as though people have a choice of job, when sometimes they are forced to take anything due to financial pressure or supplementing a lousy student grant.

I've seen people in Muslim clothing working at places like McDonalds and KFC.

I think KFC products might be Halal, but doubt McDonalds is.
I doubt all Muslims follow the letter of their religious law, just like the loads of Christians who work on Sundays
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Old 28th July 2018, 04:40 AM   #140
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There are. You talk as though people have a choice of job, when sometimes they are forced to take anything due to financial pressure or supplementing a lousy student grant.

I've seen people in Muslim clothing working at places like McDonalds and KFC.

I think KFC products might be Halal, but doubt McDonalds is.
Wow, there you go again with your ridiculous stretching to justify the behavior.

"You know the ONLY job I could get was by going to school for 4 years and becoming a pharmacist and making 100k a year, and now they are forcing me to give pills to those icky trans people. Woe is me."
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Old 28th July 2018, 11:21 AM   #141
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Originally Posted by sylvan8798 View Post
Wasn't there a case where a Muslim man who worked for a grocery or the like refused to load alcohol into a woman's car? I've also heard of cases of Muslim cashiers refusing to cash out certain items, although I have not heard mention of any of those recently.

I can only think of a single local instance, a Muslim taxi driver refused to pick up a fare because the couple had been drinking and were in possession of alcohol. Rather than being granted a "religious exemption", the city threatened to pull his medallion, and affirmed that because it was a public businesses, he did not have a right to discriminate. I'd really like to see these so-called "Christian" bigots treated the same way, instead of this ******** "religious freedom" nonsense.
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Old 28th July 2018, 12:06 PM   #142
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I remember a few scattered one-off cases of X demographic not doing Y job, but they don't seem to be the common occurrence that refusing birth control/emergency contraceptives/hormones.
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Old 28th July 2018, 01:54 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
There are. You talk as though people have a choice of job, when sometimes they are forced to take anything due to financial pressure or supplementing a lousy student grant.

I've seen people in Muslim clothing working at places like McDonalds and KFC.

I think KFC products might be Halal, but doubt McDonalds is.
And when you ordered your burger or bucket of chicken, did they berate you for not ordering halal food and denied to give you your order? Or did they just do their job?

And, of course, what The Sparrow said.

Another epic fail of analogy.
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Old 29th July 2018, 08:48 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I can only think of a single local instance, a Muslim taxi driver refused to pick up a fare because the couple had been drinking and were in possession of alcohol. Rather than being granted a "religious exemption", the city threatened to pull his medallion, and affirmed that because it was a public businesses, he did not have a right to discriminate. I'd really like to see these so-called "Christian" bigots treated the same way, instead of this ******** "religious freedom" nonsense.
I agreed the Arizona pharmacist's behaviour was poor, based on the facts presented here.

I doubt it has anything to do with religious belief. In my congregation there is a pharmacist with a big city hospital, a scientist with an oncology pharmaceutical company and a doctor constantly on call. They are the nicest people you could possibly meet. They would never refuse anyone treatment, except on proper professional grounds. Compassion is one of the key tenets.
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Old 29th July 2018, 08:50 AM   #145
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Old 29th July 2018, 09:12 AM   #146
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I agreed the Arizona pharmacist's behaviour was poor, based on the facts presented here.

I doubt it has anything to do with religious belief. In my congregation there is a pharmacist with a big city hospital, a scientist with an oncology pharmaceutical company and a doctor constantly on call. They are the nicest people you could possibly meet. They would never refuse anyone treatment, except on proper professional grounds. Compassion is one of the key tenets.

Why do you believe that your congregation is at all representative of every congregation?

Do you know a lot of fundamentalist Christians? Inerrant Southern Baptists? Have you ever visited any of their congregations? Listened to their preachers? Read their diatribes on the innumerable things they believe go against "God's Word"?

The exemptions these people want to create as an excuse for professionals not doing their job are specifically founded on their religious beliefs and the beliefs of those "professionals" ().
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Old 29th July 2018, 09:40 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I agreed the Arizona pharmacist's behaviour was poor, based on the facts presented here.
Cool!
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Old 29th July 2018, 12:17 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post

As a comparison. There is a movement among architects and engineers to refuse to design prisons. That would be similarly refusing a particular service for personal moral/ethical reasons.

News to me. Source/Link please.
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Old 29th July 2018, 12:46 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Architect View Post
News to me. Source/Link please.
Was thinking the same thing

Govt prisons are usually tenders so it is an opt in thing, not a trawling round finding someone
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Old 29th July 2018, 01:18 PM   #150
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I doubt it has anything to do with religious belief. In my congregation there is a pharmacist with a big city hospital, a scientist with an oncology pharmaceutical company and a doctor constantly on call. They are the nicest people you could possibly meet. They would never refuse anyone treatment, except on proper professional grounds. Compassion is one of the key tenets.
Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Why do you believe that your congregation is at all representative of every congregation?

Do you know a lot of fundamentalist Christians? Inerrant Southern Baptists? Have you ever visited any of their congregations? Listened to their preachers? Read their diatribes on the innumerable things they believe go against "God's Word"?

The exemptions these people want to create as an excuse for professionals not doing their job are specifically founded on their religious beliefs and the beliefs of those "professionals" ().

I grew up in those churches, in Fundamentalist and Evangelical churches; and watched what they evolved into over the decades. They would, and very much do, refuse treatment to anyone that they feel is too far outside their narrow little worldview. They will block even medically-necessary abortions, they will tacitly support anti-abortion terrorists who shoot doctors, they lobby to block any form of sex-education that isn't religiously-based abstinence-only, they lobby to block access to contraception, they've been involved in slandering and attempting to defund and shut down Planned Parenthood, they lobby to exclude AIDS victims from medical treatment, they lobby to get HIV+ positive people denied employment and healthcare, they lobby against anything and anyone who isn't involved in their religious fanticism and bigotry.

All of these exemption laws are based on one thing and one thing only, "sincerely-held religious beliefs". And the only "sincerely-held religious beliefs" they are willing to consider are those of Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christianity, and some of the more fanatical factions of Judaism.

You're in a more liberal church? Good for you. Millions of American church-goers are far, far more conservative and reactionary.
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Old 29th July 2018, 02:03 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I grew up in those churches, in Fundamentalist and Evangelical churches; and watched what they evolved into over the decades. They would, and very much do, refuse treatment to anyone that they feel is too far outside their narrow little worldview. They will block even medically-necessary abortions, they will tacitly support anti-abortion terrorists who shoot doctors, they lobby to block any form of sex-education that isn't religiously-based abstinence-only, they lobby to block access to contraception, they've been involved in slandering and attempting to defund and shut down Planned Parenthood, they lobby to exclude AIDS victims from medical treatment, they lobby to get HIV+ positive people denied employment and healthcare, they lobby against anything and anyone who isn't involved in their religious fanticism and bigotry.

All of these exemption laws are based on one thing and one thing only, "sincerely-held religious beliefs". And the only "sincerely-held religious beliefs" they are willing to consider are those of Fundamentalist/Evangelical Christianity, and some of the more fanatical factions of Judaism.

You're in a more liberal church? Good for you. Millions of American church-goers are far, far more conservative and reactionary.
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Old 29th July 2018, 03:52 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Why do you believe that your congregation is at all representative of every congregation?

Do you know a lot of fundamentalist Christians? Inerrant Southern Baptists? Have you ever visited any of their congregations? Listened to their preachers? Read their diatribes on the innumerable things they believe go against "God's Word"?

The exemptions these people want to create as an excuse for professionals not doing their job are specifically founded on their religious beliefs and the beliefs of those "professionals" ().
I don't see any evidence that Vixen meant to represent all Christians, but rather to point out that it is possible to be a Christian and not be a jerk. That seems a useful thing to remember, even if, unfortunately, Vixen's sort of Christian is out of favor these days.
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Old 29th July 2018, 04:04 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I doubt it has anything to do with religious belief.
I, on the other hand, would be astounded if it does not. Never underestimate the depths to which the religious right in America will sink.
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Old 29th July 2018, 05:39 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
You appear to be making the common error of assuming that atheists and agnostics have no such scruples.

It is not necessarily a religious scruple either. I know people who are so incensed at what they see is ill-treatment towards animals they have become vegan. To others, that is an extreme position.

People have to be allowed to not be forced to do something against their will.
Most people accept that it's OK that we're are forced to do some things against our will all the time. Try running a red light, and see what that gets ya.

What I generally object to in these laws as they've been pushed out is that they're not generalized moral objection wording. They're specifically protecting conservative Christians' wishes to reject specific types of requests. If a Scientologist refused to dispense antipsychotics, or a Moslem refused to allow a blind customer into the store to get a life saving epinephrine shot until she tied her dog outside, they would not be protected, the law is not for false morals. Just Christian morals, and ultraconservative Christian morals at that.

Depending on the state, the religions and scenarios are very explicitly spelled out, and a previous poster nailed it. It's about controlling women's sexual activities and bodies.
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Old 29th July 2018, 05:42 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Apart from that, I've never heard of such an example. Now, Muslims don't have a problem with handling pork, only with eating it, and I'm pretty sure that applies to Jews as well.
This isn't true, and there have been dozens of examples of Muslim cashiers refusing to handle or even ring up pork products in a grocery store. Another example is refusing service to people with service dogs. They typically lose their jobs, because these 'moral freedom' laws are not for them.
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Old 30th July 2018, 01:36 AM   #156
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I don't see any evidence that Vixen meant to represent all Christians, but rather to point out that it is possible to be a Christian and not be a jerk. That seems a useful thing to remember, even if, unfortunately, Vixen's sort of Christian is out of favor these days.

Perhaps she didn't. But it did appear that she was using her congregation as evidence to defend her claim that the objection to filling out the prescription was not based on religion.
Originally Posted by Vixen View Post
I agreed the Arizona pharmacist's behaviour was poor, based on the facts presented here.

I doubt it has anything to do with religious belief. In my congregation there is a pharmacist with a big city hospital, a scientist with an oncology pharmaceutical company and a doctor constantly on call. They are the nicest people you could possibly meet. They would never refuse anyone treatment, except on proper professional grounds. Compassion is one of the key tenets.

How else would you interpret the highlighted?
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Old 30th July 2018, 03:01 AM   #157
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
Actually, the best part of the whole thing is that, being a Christian myself, and one who has actually studied scripture, refusing to fill a prescription for a transperson's hormone treatment is a violation of how they are commanded by Christ to behave.

But very, very few modern Evangelicals and Fundamentalist Christians even know what Christ's commandments were, let alone care about following them. Scripture has some rather harsh things to say about such people.
But that would require them to care what some long haired hippy thought.
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Old 30th July 2018, 03:03 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I can only think of a single local instance, a Muslim taxi driver refused to pick up a fare because the couple had been drinking and were in possession of alcohol. Rather than being granted a "religious exemption", the city threatened to pull his medallion, and affirmed that because it was a public businesses, he did not have a right to discriminate. I'd really like to see these so-called "Christian" bigots treated the same way, instead of this ******** "religious freedom" nonsense.
Ah but clearly drunks are a protected class or something.
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Old 30th July 2018, 03:06 AM   #159
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Originally Posted by luchog View Post
I grew up in those churches, in Fundamentalist and Evangelical churches; and watched what they evolved into over the decades. They would, and very much do, refuse treatment to anyone that they feel is too far outside their narrow little worldview. They will block even medically-necessary abortions,
Though I think that catholics by often running a majority of local hospitals are better at blocking medically necessary abortions. Something that should make Vixen think about conversion.
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Old 30th July 2018, 05:33 AM   #160
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
Perhaps she didn't. But it did appear that she was using her congregation as evidence to defend her claim that the objection to filling out the prescription was not based on religion.

How else would you interpret the highlighted?
As a very poor attempt at apologetics that, no, Christians, are not evil, while she knows some are. This is what she wrote a month ago:
Quote:
Unfortunately, some Lutheran pastors' beliefs are not far removed from fascism. A Norwegian pastor visited my church a few weeks ago. I went into shock by his attitude as he ranted on about how he was against women being ordained, abortion, gay marriage, etc., so much so I stayed away a couple of weeks.
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