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Old 23rd June 2019, 12:04 PM   #1
dann
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Why a group of US state senators are being hunted by police (BBC)

This is the first time I've heard about this: Why a group of US state senators are being hunted by police (BBC News, June 23, 2019)

To me, as a European, this sounds insane:

Quote:
Where are the senators now?
They are rumoured to have fled into neighbouring Idaho - where police are not authorised to look for them.
The current legislative session is due to end on 30 June and the Republican whip has said they will "run out the clock" on it "until this storm of false narratives and intimidation passes".
Before the walkout, Democrats had already said they would be willing to use police to try to force absent Republicans to come back.

The row has crippled Oregon's Capitol
One lawmaker, Brian Boquist, responded angrily. Speaking to a local news outlet on Wednesday, he said police should "send bachelors and come heavily armed" if they were to try to arrest him.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 12:26 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
This is the first time I've heard about this
It's not the first time it's happened. Back in 2011, Democrats in Wisconsin pulled a similar move of fleeing to prevent quorum to try to stop legislation they didn't like, and law enforcement was authorized to bring them back.

https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/g...cc4c03286.html

In the end, Republicans removed certain spending provisions from the bill, allowing it to pass by simple majority without needing a larger quorum, so the Dems lost anyways, and came back after that.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 12:35 PM   #3
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The BBC News article mentions the story about the Democrats in 2011. Did they also threaten so shoot policemen?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
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Old 23rd June 2019, 12:39 PM   #4
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It's a complete freak show in our state's capital including armed people. I think a carbon fee and dividend is a much better idea than cap and trade:
https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-e...306-story.html
And I also think this type of legislation should be national and not state by state. It is ridiculous that the GOP fight this legislation by running away.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 01:47 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The BBC News article mentions the story about the Democrats in 2011. Did they also threaten so shoot policemen?
This.

It was a dumb thing for the Dems to do in Wisconsin, and that reduced the ability of the Dems to be too critical of the GOP for doing it in Oregon.

But with the Dems in Wisconsin, there were no threats. The Dems just don't inspire the Crazies the way the Republicans do.

Armed Extremists Just Escalated Oregon’s Fight Over Climate Legislation

Quote:
One Republican senator has already threatened a more violent response. “Send bachelors and come heavily armed,” said Brian Boquist in a video captured by Pat Dooris of KGW News in Portland. He said he told Travis Hampton, superintendent of the Oregon State Police, “I’m not going to be a political prisoner in the state of Oregon. It’s just that simple.”
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Old 23rd June 2019, 03:01 PM   #6
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I seem to recall something similar in Texas:

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...131-story.html

Quote:
AUSTIN, Texas -- Texas' most eagerly sought fugitives were tracked to their lair late Tuesday when state troopers discovered more than 50 Democratic state legislators holed up just over the border in Oklahoma, where they were staying in a Holiday Inn and holding court at Denny's.

On Day 2 of the most thrilling political saga to grip Texas in years, Republicans at the domed state Capitol on Tuesday plastered the missing Democrats' faces on milk cartons and distributed decks of playing cards picturing the Democrats in the style of most-wanted Iraqis.

Meanwhile, the defiant Democrats stayed on the lam.

Lacking the ability to make arrests in Oklahoma, the Texas troopers urged the lawmakers to come home to the Lone Star State, where they are needed to do the people's business in the state House of Representatives.

But the Democrats refused, maintaining a boycott that has paralyzed all legislative business, undercut efforts to write a multibillion budget and imperiled hundreds of pending bills.
(2003)

So it's a tool that's been used by democrats in the past.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 03:06 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not the first time it's happened. Back in 2011, Democrats in Wisconsin pulled a similar move of fleeing to prevent quorum to try to stop legislation they didn't like, and law enforcement was authorized to bring them back.

https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/g...cc4c03286.html

In the end, Republicans removed certain spending provisions from the bill, allowing it to pass by simple majority without needing a larger quorum, so the Dems lost anyways, and came back after that.
Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
I seem to recall something similar in Texas:

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...131-story.html

(2003)

So it's a tool that's been used by democrats in the past.


No wonder this story seemed like deja vu all over again.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 03:16 PM   #8
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There is a good deal of irony in the story. Our current governor, who issued orders to the state police to round up the truant representatives, herself led a five day walkout when she was leader of the house democrats.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 03:18 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by crescent View Post
The Dems just don't inspire the Crazies the way the Republicans do.
Yes, actually, they do. The style is a little different, but the substance is much the same.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 03:54 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, actually, they do. The style is a little different, but the substance is much the same.
Incorrect. Unlike Brian Boquist, James Hodgkinson wasn't elected to a state senate. Both sides have violent nutjobs. Only Republicans elect them to public office.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 04:50 PM   #11
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State senator hunting season doesn't start until September, and requires a permit.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 05:47 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by TragicMonkey View Post
State senator hunting season doesn't start until September, and requires a permit.
You also can't hunt them at night when they tend to freeze in the headlights of oncoming cars.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 07:55 PM   #13
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Republican State Senators chased away by Killer Rabbits

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Old 23rd June 2019, 07:59 PM   #14
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If they threaten violence like republicans always do then kill them. They are anti-American trash. Burn them down.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 08:34 PM   #15
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Republican and white supremacists, standing hand-in-hand against the evil liberals.
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Old 23rd June 2019, 09:18 PM   #16
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The issue isn't the climate change legislation per se. The Republicans in this state have already derailed at least two earlier pieces of legislation through this method with essentially no consequences. The state Democrats are fed up with it.
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Old 24th June 2019, 04:28 AM   #17
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In real Democracies, this kind of **** cannot happen.

In this country, if the minority party walked out of Parliament because they cant stop a bill they don't like being passed, tough-titty. That's their choice, the bill will still get passed, and it will do so unopposed (their will be no votes recorded against the bill).

This stops the minority party holding the Government hostage.
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Old 24th June 2019, 05:05 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by smartcooky View Post
In real Democracies, this kind of **** cannot happen.

In this country, if the minority party walked out of Parliament because they cant stop a bill they don't like being passed, tough-titty. That's their choice, the bill will still get passed, and it will do so unopposed (their will be no votes recorded against the bill).

This stops the minority party holding the Government hostage.
That is the point. The US system does not like democracy and majority rule.
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Old 24th June 2019, 05:37 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by Shadowdweller View Post
The issue isn't the climate change legislation per se. The Republicans in this state have already derailed at least two earlier pieces of legislation through this method with essentially no consequences. The state Democrats are fed up with it.

What were the earlier pieces of legislation that they derailed up?
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Old 24th June 2019, 05:41 AM   #20
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I guess this is the logical conclusion in a country that still has "I'm literally just gonna keep talking and not stop so you can't pass this bill" as a bonafide legislative procedure.
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Old 24th June 2019, 05:48 AM   #21
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Another failure of US laws assuming lawmakers would be responsible, honorable men.

The law requiring a quorum of senators exists so that laws can't be snuck through the legislature when the lawmakers aren't around. No one anticipated that a minority party would use this rule to prevent the majority from passing laws. Oregon GOP is acting like a deadbeat that dodges debts by avoiding being served court papers.

The law should be changed such that, after a certain period of time and adequate notice, a quorum can be established with whoever cares enough to show up. This might solve this particular problem, but not the larger problem of faithless lawmakers acting dishonorably to game the system.
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Old 24th June 2019, 05:50 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Another failure of US laws assuming lawmakers would be responsible, honorable men.
Well yeah.

This comes up, in some version or another, across the entire of political discourse.

Why does X happen? How did X happen? Why isn't there something in place to keep X from happening?

And the answer is always "An engaged, educated voter base that doesn't elect idiots."
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Old 24th June 2019, 06:02 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
I guess this is the logical conclusion in a country that still has "I'm literally just gonna keep talking and not stop so you can't pass this bill" as a bonafide legislative procedure.
Between the gerrymandering, fillibustering, electoral college, and senators litterally skipping work and going into hiding... I just don't know what to make of American democracy.
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Old 24th June 2019, 06:04 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Safe-Keeper View Post
Between the gerrymandering, fillibustering, electoral college, and senators litterally skipping work and going into hiding... I just don't know what to make of American democracy.
*Sighs* I don't want to piss on my country too much but... as best I can put it it's a lot of (potentially) halfway decent leaders who have mistaken the forest that is the political dance for the trees that are... the point of politics in the first place.

Too many of them have a "whatever stops the other side is worth it, no price is too high to achieve that goal" mentality.
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Old 24th June 2019, 06:15 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Well yeah.

This comes up, in some version or another, across the entire of political discourse.

Why does X happen? How did X happen? Why isn't there something in place to keep X from happening?

And the answer is always "An engaged, educated voter base that doesn't elect idiots."
If you were an elected official, is there ant position you would use this quorum strategy on?
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Old 24th June 2019, 06:29 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
If you were an elected official, is there ant position you would use this quorum strategy on?
It wasn't directed at me, but I'd say no. I think the Dems in whatever state they did it in are just as lame and childish as this is now. That's how we get here though. The second post of this thread by Zigg was nothing more than a whataboutism. Whataboutism's have replaced holding ones party accountable. Why say that your party is wrong when you can point out that someone else did it too therefore....? **** I don't know.

If you don't like the bill, vote against it. If it passes, then let the terribleness of the bill take effect and campaign on it the next time around. I'd rather have 5 "I told you so's" than 1 whataboutism. They're obnoxious and mentally bankrupt.
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Old 24th June 2019, 06:43 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
It wasn't directed at me, but I'd say no. I think the Dems in whatever state they did it in are just as lame and childish as this is now. That's how we get here though. The second post of this thread by Zigg was nothing more than a whataboutism. Whataboutism's have replaced holding ones party accountable. Why say that your party is wrong when you can point out that someone else did it too therefore....? **** I don't know.
:democrats do something:

Trumpkins: see? Dems bad !

:republicans do same thing:

Trumpkins: oh, but that's fine, becaus dems did it too !
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Old 24th June 2019, 06:48 AM   #28
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*Sighs* One day, one day a political discussion will happen again that is concerned with anything, anything beyond Left/Right point scoring.
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Old 24th June 2019, 06:55 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
*Sighs* One day, one day a political discussion will happen again that is concerned with anything, anything beyond Left/Right point scoring.
Has that happened in the past? If it has, I haven't run into it. The entire political past of the US has been nothing more than a battle of left vs. right. I guess I must have missed this fantastical time you're referencing.
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Old 24th June 2019, 05:40 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
What were the earlier pieces of legislation that they derailed up?
There were bills that toughened vaccine requirements and increased firearm regulations. I don't know the particulars. They also managed to get a school funding bill (paid for with a business tax increase) cut by about half.
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Old 24th June 2019, 07:23 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by plague311 View Post
Has that happened in the past? If it has, I haven't run into it. The entire political past of the US has been nothing more than a battle of left vs. right. I guess I must have missed this fantastical time you're referencing.
It just seems worse now, and is, I think. This is mainly because the Republican party has turned into the cult of Trump that labels everyone not in the cult as a liberal.
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Old 25th June 2019, 02:35 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by thaiboxerken View Post
It just seems worse now, and is, I think. This is mainly because the Republican party has turned into the cult of Trump that labels everyone not in the cult as a liberal.
IMO it pre-dates that. When the GOP announced that it had no intention of working with the Democrats following Obama's election and would instead devote itself entirely to obstructing any attempt to implement legislation.

Prior to that there was always partisanship and friction but at least there were some on both sides of the aisle who were willing to compromise in the interests of their constituents. That ship seems to have sailed and those willing to work with the other party are painted as traitors and not people willing to compromise.
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Old 25th June 2019, 05:27 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO it pre-dates that. When the GOP announced that it had no intention of working with the Democrats following Obama's election and would instead devote itself entirely to obstructing any attempt to implement legislation.

Prior to that there was always partisanship and friction but at least there were some on both sides of the aisle who were willing to compromise in the interests of their constituents. That ship seems to have sailed and those willing to work with the other party are painted as traitors and not people willing to compromise.
Instead it is no compromise in the interest of constituents.
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Old 25th June 2019, 06:48 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
Yes, actually, they do. The style is a little different, but the substance is much the same.
That is an outright lie and you know it. No Democrat went to Hodgkinson to personally appeal to him. In fact, they all went out of their way to condemn the attack. Besides, his rhetoric sounds like it would right at home in a Rand Paul supporters meeting.

Republicans have, for decades, courted the right wing domestic terrorist vote. And right now, these state senators are camping out with them, encouraging them to get into gun battles with police.

So drop the false equivalency. It only serves to derail the conversation and obfuscate the truth.
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Old 25th June 2019, 06:51 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
That is an outright lie and you know it. No Democrat went to Hodgkinson to personally appeal to him. In fact, they all went out of their way to condemn the attack. Besides, his rhetoric sounds like it would right at home in a Rand Paul supporters meeting.

Republicans have, for decades, courted the right wing domestic terrorist vote. And right now, these state senators are camping out with them, encouraging them to get into gun battles with police.

So drop the false equivalency. It only serves to derail the conversation and obfuscate the truth.
The ties between democrats and the KKK is far worse.
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Old 25th June 2019, 07:01 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO it pre-dates that. When the GOP announced that it had no intention of working with the Democrats following Obama's election and would instead devote itself entirely to obstructing any attempt to implement legislation.

Prior to that there was always partisanship and friction but at least there were some on both sides of the aisle who were willing to compromise in the interests of their constituents. That ship seems to have sailed and those willing to work with the other party are painted as traitors and not people willing to compromise.
The seeds were planted years ago. Newt Gingrich brought his "contrasting words" to the mainstream Republican strategy.

Go back further into the mid 70s and you'll see the Republicans jumping into bed with the right wing extremist Christian sects. When you make your party's policies the Word of God, what does that make the other party?
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Old 25th June 2019, 07:02 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
The ties between democrats and the KKK is far worse.
You mean Southern Conservatives. Because that is the real link.

Also, another dishonest attempt at a derailment. If you can't argue the facts, maybe you should hang back, keep quiet, and learn a few things.
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Old 25th June 2019, 07:18 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Donal View Post
You mean Southern Conservatives. Because that is the real link.

Also, another dishonest attempt at a derailment. If you can't argue the facts, maybe you should hang back, keep quiet, and learn a few things.
Those southern conservatives were democrats. You can't pick and choose your history. That is doubled when they were an essential block in passing the new deal, which serves as an inspiration to so much democratic policy today.

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Old 25th June 2019, 07:23 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by Ziggurat View Post
It's not the first time it's happened. Back in 2011, Democrats in Wisconsin pulled a similar move of fleeing to prevent quorum to try to stop legislation they didn't like, and law enforcement was authorized to bring them back.

https://madison.com/wsj/news/local/g...cc4c03286.html

In the end, Republicans removed certain spending provisions from the bill, allowing it to pass by simple majority without needing a larger quorum, so the Dems lost anyways, and came back after that.
A damned circus, that is.
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Old 25th June 2019, 09:21 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Those southern conservatives were democrats. You can't pick and choose your history. That is doubled when they were an essential block in passing the new deal, which serves as an inspiration to so much democratic policy today.
Your historically inaccurate attempt to derail the conversation has no place here. Please stick to the topic at hand.
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