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Old 20th April 2019, 01:13 PM   #521
abaddon
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
you clearly knew I meant to say gas expands, youíre just grasping at straws
Nope. If you are going to challenge science then precision is necessary and you simply dont have it and don't understand why it is necessary.
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Old 20th April 2019, 01:40 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by Lithrael View Post
Is it too late to point out that the reason why a gas wants to expand into a vacuum is because all of the particles of the gas are hitting each other and then bouncing further away from each other, and absolutely not because the vacuum is yoinking them in any way?

Actually, I think itís a bit early. Gingervytes needs to figure out Newtonís laws of motion before we start them on thermodynamics.
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Old 20th April 2019, 02:33 PM   #523
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Originally Posted by Toontown View Post
Jesus Freaking Christ.

For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. No air required.

An ongoing explosion of fuel blasts out the nozzle. That is the action.
Why nobody came up with this before? :-)
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Old 20th April 2019, 02:33 PM   #524
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Actually, depending on how you read this, it's technically correct.

If you assume "free expansion" means "expanding with nothing impeding that expansion".

You would have to look at the illustration in the video to know what it was supposed to mean: Two chambers/containers (whatever), one with gas, the other one with a vacuum, connected by a tube. The free expansion would be the gas expanding into the vacuum through the tube.

Quote:
Unfortunately, that is not the case with a windmill, or inside a rocket's combustion chamber.
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Old 20th April 2019, 02:38 PM   #525
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Take a look at the experiment in this video with the balloon car. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AubIFUsq7Ss
And did you read the comments?
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Old 20th April 2019, 02:49 PM   #526
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
There's either a gas or there's a vacuum. Said another way, the potential to do pressure-and-volume work exists any time you have two volumes with differing pressures, P1 and P2. There is no magical law that forbids either P1 or P2 to be zero. You're operating under the premise that vacuum comprises some sacred condition under which the laws of physics suddenly behave differently.
While I admire your knowledge and patience, I somehow can't shake off the feeling you are flogging a dead horse . This guy is troll, he HAS TO BE!

Last edited by curious cat; 20th April 2019 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 20th April 2019, 02:59 PM   #527
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Originally Posted by curious cat View Post
While I admire your knowledge and patience, I somehow can't shake off the feeling you are flogging a dead horse .
It's not quite dead.
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Old 20th April 2019, 03:00 PM   #528
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Originally Posted by curious cat View Post
While I admire your knowledge and patience, I somehow can't shake off the feeling you are flogging a dead horse .
Of course, it's a lose lose situation. The most obvious people to convince Gingervytes and his ilk of the truth would be rocket scientists and physicists, and here, on this very thread are real rocket scientists and physicists obvious members of the great conspiracy.
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Old 20th April 2019, 03:34 PM   #529
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Humbugs are solid, so throwing one will generate a propulsive force. Tantrums are abstract, so neither solid nor fluid. There's scope for a valuable experiment here. Try throwing a tantrum, and if it flings you backwards across the room then you'll know that abstract concepts have some of the attributes of a solid.



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When a two year old throws a tantrum they seem to propel themselves to the floor. They then appear to gain mass as it is very difficult to pick them up from this position. Excess energy from the tantrum seems to be converted into (very loud) waste noise.
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Old 20th April 2019, 03:50 PM   #530
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It's not quite dead.
And not troll either? The alternative is scary to consider!
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Old 20th April 2019, 04:18 PM   #531
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Of course, it's a lose lose situation. The most obvious people to convince Gingervytes and his ilk of the truth would be rocket scientists and physicists, and here, on this very thread are real rocket scientists and physicists obvious members of the great conspiracy.
Absolutely. Very unfair. The sane part of this forum can present (I am afraid, it had already) only a limited number of argument and formulas and can't go any further without moving to quantum physics. If the other side doesn't accept them, it can fight back with and infinite load of crap so stupid, it is virtually impossible to argue with - just look at some of the sarcastic posts that, if by different posters, could be considered serious by some. Dead end...
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Old 20th April 2019, 05:12 PM   #532
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Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
It's not quite dead.
It's resting.
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Old 20th April 2019, 05:13 PM   #533
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Reminds me of that never ending threat about how a plane cannot fly anywhere on a global sphere as it has to face a 1,000 MPH wind or something....that one was just dripping with mental denial too.
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Old 20th April 2019, 05:15 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It's resting.
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Old 20th April 2019, 06:49 PM   #535
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You would have to look at the illustration in the video to know what it was supposed to mean: Two chambers/containers (whatever), one with gas, the other one with a vacuum, connected by a tube. The free expansion would be the gas expanding into the vacuum through the tube.
I must admit, I did not watch the video.

My alcohol consumption leaves me too few brain cells to sacrifice any of them to rampant stupidity
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Old 20th April 2019, 07:32 PM   #536
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
Of course, it's a lose lose situation. The most obvious people to convince Gingervytes and his ilk of the truth would be rocket scientists and physicists, and here, on this very thread are real rocket scientists and physicists obvious members of the great conspiracy.
This is a mistake made again and again and again by skeptics, thinking that the greatest experts in the field are the ones most qualified to convince people about something having to do with their profession. It's not true. If knowledge of physics were all that was necessary to convince the non-believers, this particular subject could be tackled by anyone who scored a 4 or better on their physics AP exam, or who had equivalent education.

The problem isn't lack of physics knowledge on the part of people trying to explain the problem. The problem is lack of understanding of psychology. To convince someone of something that you see as an obvious truth, you have to get to the underlying reason why those people can't see that obvious truth. Unfortunately, that's a very difficult task, because each believer in whatever brand of flim flam is being peddled may have different psychological reasons for not believing the scientific explanation for whatever phenomenon is being discussed.

As far as convincing Gingervites, specifically, about how rockets work and that they really have been used in space, I have no answers. It's different for each person, and that assumes that Gingervites isn't just yanking our chains and having some laughs at our reactions.


The latest issue of Skeptical Inquirer has a good article about "Respectful Skepticism". It touches on barriers to acceptance of scientific beliefs, and on better ways to turn people away from wooish beliefs.


I will not pretend to be good at persuading any of our various unorthodox thinkers that visit the JREF/ISF forums over the years. What I am sure of, however, is that a deeper understanding of quantum physics, or a greater facility with calculating required size of reaction masses to attain various orbits, would not make me more persuasive to someone who does not accept this rather elementary, fundamental, aspect of physics.
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Old 20th April 2019, 08:38 PM   #537
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Meadmaker, the best contribution to this thread so far.
Except, I still think Gingervytes is a troll :-).

Last edited by curious cat; 20th April 2019 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 20th April 2019, 09:37 PM   #538
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Originally Posted by Meadmaker View Post
This is a mistake made again and again and again by skeptics, thinking that the greatest experts in the field are the ones most qualified to convince people about something having to do with their profession. It's not true. If knowledge of physics were all that was necessary to convince the non-believers, this particular subject could be tackled by anyone who scored a 4 or better on their physics AP exam, or who had equivalent education.

The problem isn't lack of physics knowledge on the part of people trying to explain the problem. The problem is lack of understanding of psychology. To convince someone of something that you see as an obvious truth, you have to get to the underlying reason why those people can't see that obvious truth. Unfortunately, that's a very difficult task, because each believer in whatever brand of flim flam is being peddled may have different psychological reasons for not believing the scientific explanation for whatever phenomenon is being discussed.

As far as convincing Gingervites, specifically, about how rockets work and that they really have been used in space, I have no answers. It's different for each person, and that assumes that Gingervites isn't just yanking our chains and having some laughs at our reactions.


The latest issue of Skeptical Inquirer has a good article about "Respectful Skepticism". It touches on barriers to acceptance of scientific beliefs, and on better ways to turn people away from wooish beliefs.


I will not pretend to be good at persuading any of our various unorthodox thinkers that visit the JREF/ISF forums over the years. What I am sure of, however, is that a deeper understanding of quantum physics, or a greater facility with calculating required size of reaction masses to attain various orbits, would not make me more persuasive to someone who does not accept this rather elementary, fundamental, aspect of physics.
I do, of course, realize it's a mistake, which is why I put it as I did. A person woefully ignorant of basic science ought, of course, to be persuaded by people who know what they're talking about, but it's quite clear that this is not actually effective in cases like this where, though it's perhaps impolite to say so, the problem is more akin to madness than to ignorance.
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Old 21st April 2019, 02:57 AM   #539
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It's worth bearing in mind that the notion that rockets can't work outside the atmosphere may just be a supporting argument the OP stumbled upon which seems to justify their core belief, e.g that the moon landings were faked.

It may well be that the OP is not interested in how rockets work, but having found a clever looking (to them) reason to reject the moon landings they will just keep repeating it to justify their gut feeling, which is no more than that their government lied.
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Old 21st April 2019, 04:02 AM   #540
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It's worth bearing in mind that the notion that rockets can't work outside the atmosphere may just be a supporting argument the OP stumbled upon which seems to justify their core belief, e.g that the moon landings were faked.

It may well be that the OP is not interested in how rockets work, but having found a clever looking (to them) reason to reject the moon landings they will just keep repeating it to justify their gut feeling, which is no more than that their government lied.
You may be right. I said I believe Gingervytes is a troll - well. that is what the rational part of my mind says because nobody can be THAT stupid you know ;-). But my experience tells me otherwise. Scary.
Anyway, it looks like all the ideas our friend used come from that video he pointed at in the end. I watched it eventually and it is all there. Totally moronic. At one stage the author is talking about a rocket and he is showing it all on a picture of a jet engine... No wonder it wouldn't work in vacuum! I am singling out this point only because it is the easiest one to show, but the whole vid is just a continuous chain of absurd nonsense presented as rocket science. Highly recommended for its entertainment value, don't miss it!
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Old 21st April 2019, 04:53 AM   #541
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
It's worth bearing in mind that the notion that rockets can't work outside the atmosphere may just be a supporting argument the OP stumbled upon which seems to justify their core belief, e.g that the moon landings were faked.

It may well be that the OP is not interested in how rockets work, but having found a clever looking (to them) reason to reject the moon landings they will just keep repeating it to justify their gut feeling, which is no more than that their government lied.
It goes deeper than that with a number of them.

Anything that is 'official' is a lie, this includes space, gravity, the earth being a globe rockets working in a vacuum etc.
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Old 21st April 2019, 05:19 AM   #542
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
It goes deeper than that with a number of them.

Anything that is 'official' is a lie, this includes space, gravity, the earth being a globe rockets working in a vacuum etc.
This is genuinely where they think all knowledge is kept:

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Old 21st April 2019, 06:27 AM   #543
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Reminds me of that never ending threat about how a plane cannot fly anywhere on a global sphere as it has to face a 1,000 MPH wind or something....that one was just dripping with mental denial too.
Ever hear of the sound barrier? Ever hear of friction.
https://www.quora.com/Will-a-plane-g...m-air-friction
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:30 AM   #544
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Originally Posted by curious cat View Post
You may be right. I said I believe Gingervytes is a troll - well. that is what the rational part of my mind says because nobody can be THAT stupid you know ;-). But my experience tells me otherwise. Scary.
Anyway, it looks like all the ideas our friend used come from that video he pointed at in the end. I watched it eventually and it is all there. Totally moronic. At one stage the author is talking about a rocket and he is showing it all on a picture of a jet engine... No wonder it wouldn't work in vacuum! I am singling out this point only because it is the easiest one to show, but the whole vid is just a continuous chain of absurd nonsense presented as rocket science. Highly recommended for its entertainment value, don't miss it!
All I ask is for a simple experiment showing an equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force. Until you do that, you have no proof of rockets working in space
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:31 AM   #545
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What about the sound barrier and friction?
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:31 AM   #546
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Experiments showing that there is no equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AubIFUsq7Ss
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:33 AM   #547
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Originally Posted by Hans View Post
Reminds me of that never ending threat about how a plane cannot fly anywhere on a global sphere as it has to face a 1,000 MPH wind or something....that one was just dripping with mental denial too.

One or other of these?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=174090
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...d.php?t=319960
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:34 AM   #548
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Experiments showing that there is no equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AubIFUsq7Ss

Does the exhaust of a rocket expand equally in all directions?
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:34 AM   #549
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Experiments showing that there is no equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AubIFUsq7Ss
Can you link me to the papers or journal they were published in?

All you ever seem to give us is youtube video.
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:37 AM   #550
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Well can you help
Get my work published?
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:46 AM   #551
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Well can you help
Get my work published?
Youtube videos don't work very well in printed form, just saying.
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:49 AM   #552
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Well can you help
Get my work published?
Have you tried 'The Onion'?

or maybe if you are in the UK 'Vis' may be interested.
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:54 AM   #553
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Have you tried 'The Onion'?

or maybe if you are in the UK 'Vis' may be interested.
Nitpick: "Viz"

If they were interested, I foresee a whole slew of "Roger Irrelevant" spinoffs.
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Old 21st April 2019, 06:55 AM   #554
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
All I ask is for a simple experiment showing an equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force. Until you do that, you have no proof of rockets working in space
The balloon car is such an experiment. Our explanation for why the balloon car moves forward is that the pressure gradient causes the air to be expelled from the balloon. The force on the air is coupled with an opposite and equal force on the balloon in the other direction, and since the balloon is attached to the car, the car moves forward.


In the video, they show a balloon car working, but they have an alternative explanation. They say that the forward motion of the car is caused when the air from the balloon pushes off the air from the atmosphere. Then, they show that it goes slower if a vacuum cleaner is activated behind the car. Their explanation is that the air is less dense behind the car, so there's less to push off of.

What do you think would happen if a second vacuum cleaner were to be operated in front of the car? What is predicted by each of the two theories? (i.e. by our conventional theory, and by your theory challenging that conventional theory?)
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Old 21st April 2019, 07:02 AM   #555
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Well can you help
Get my work published?
Those publications usually demand a bit more mathematical rigor than you, or your videos seem to demonstrate.

If you were to work out all the forces in the balloon car experiment, and then make some predictions about similar experiments based on your theory, you would have some hope. So far, you, and your sources are a bit too vague.
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Old 21st April 2019, 07:05 AM   #556
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Well can you help
Get my work published?

OK. Here’s a handy checklist. You already comply with some of the points, so you have a head start.
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Old 21st April 2019, 07:14 AM   #557
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Originally Posted by EvilBiker View Post
Nitpick: "Viz"

If they were interested, I foresee a whole slew of "Roger Irrelevant" spinoffs.
I was thinking more of 'Buster gonad' theme because of the huge amount of balls.
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Old 21st April 2019, 07:21 AM   #558
Meadmaker
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
All I ask is for a simple experiment showing an equal and opposite force from gas movement due to pressure gradient force. Until you do that, you have no proof of rockets working in space
I thought of a very simple experiment to test the theories. The vacuum cleaner experiment from the youtube video is explained, in your theory, by the lower atmospheric pressure behind the car.

So, why not compare the speed of the balloon car at sea level, versus the speed of the balloon car at high altitude. Your theory predicts that the car would go slower in the lower pressure found at high altitude. Our theory predicts that there would be a slight, probably difficult to measure, increase in speed because of a slight increase in exit velocity of the air, plus a tiny decrease in atmospheric drag.


Another very, very, simple experiment would be to fire a rocket in space. A lot of us think this experiment was conducted successfully by Werner Von Braun in the 1940s, and repeated thousands of times since them, but you seem to have some doubt about those experiments.
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Old 21st April 2019, 07:28 AM   #559
pgwenthold
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Originally Posted by Gingervytes View Post
Well can you help
Get my work published?
Here's what I do to get my work published

1) Have a new result that would be a contribution to our scientific knowledge - you think you have that
2) write it up so to communicate it with the scientific world - YouTube videos and notes don't work here
3) submit it to an appropriate journal - something like Phys Rev A would be appropriate here

Most journals have straightforward submission interfaces, so easy enough to do

4) if the editor deems it worthy, it will be sent to experts in the field for their assessment about suitability for publication
5) the reviewers may recommend revisions before publication, or may recommend rejection straight out. The editor will use the advice of the reviewers to determine whether to publish the paper

That's the best help I can give, the rest is up to you.

I fear your process is going to stall at step 4. There's no way the editor is going to waste reviewers' time with it. The reason I know that is that you've already had comments from actual experts, and they've laughed at you.
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Old 21st April 2019, 07:48 AM   #560
EvilBiker
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
I was thinking more of 'Buster gonad' theme because of the huge amount of balls.
Well, there don't seem to be any large cojones around in his case, judging by the lack of responses to our resident rocket scientists (among others).
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