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Old 21st October 2019, 12:39 PM   #1
dudalb
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Two Japanese Carriers Sunk at Midway Found...

"Kaga' and "Akagi" to be exact:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-50124313

That sound you hear is Roland Emmerich rushing to try to get publicity for his upcoming film on Midway which opens in November....
Probably be as accurate as "The Patriot" and "Anoynymous"
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Old 21st October 2019, 01:19 PM   #2
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Cool!!!!
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Old 21st October 2019, 01:40 PM   #3
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Nice!
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Old 21st October 2019, 01:49 PM   #4
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And only under 18,000 feet of water.


More footage.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...und-in-pacific

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Old 26th October 2019, 12:30 AM   #5
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Midway was the first big victory for the US forces in WWII and definitely turned the tide against the Japanese. Kaga and Akagi were both present at Pearl Harbor, so their sinking was especially satisfying to the US navy.
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Old 31st October 2019, 03:21 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Brainster View Post
Midway was the first big victory for the US forces in WWII and definitely turned the tide against the Japanese. Kaga and Akagi were both present at Pearl Harbor, so their sinking was especially satisfying to the US navy.

The Coral Sea says Hi...
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Old 31st October 2019, 06:22 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Probably be as accurate as "The Patriot" and "Anoynymous"
Based on the trailer I think it will be no more accurate than the film Pearl Harbor.

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Old 31st October 2019, 07:07 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The Coral Sea says Hi...
Yup. Arguably a tactical victory for Japan, indisputably a strategic allied victory. The first time a major Japanese offensive was defeated. And they never had another one succeed.
On the Japanese side, Shokaku was significantly damaged. Zuikaku was undamaged, but lost a portion of its air wing. Both were sidelined for a couple of months.
On the Allied side, Lexington was sunk, Yorktown was significantly damaged. Maybe fewer pilots lost, but lots of aircraft. Yorktown made it back to Pearl, spent TWO DAYS in drydock, and departed for Midway, with an air wing composed of survivors of the Coral Sea, new recruits, and some planes and crews from Saratoga, then under repair from torpedo damage.
So Midway was the obvious turning point, but wouldn't have happened that way if Japan hadn't sent two carriers to the Coral Sea, and failed to get one of them back into the fray as soon as possible.

Trebuchet's list of WWII in the Pacific turning points:
1. Coral Sea. First failed Japanese offensive, none successful after. Loss of Shokaku and Zuikaku to Midway.
2. Midway. First absolute Japanese defeat.
3. The Guadalcanal campaign. First real allied offensive. Japan ALWAYS on the defensive thereafter.
0. 0755, Hawaiian Time, December 7, 1941, when the first bomb fell on Pearl Harbor. Absolutely no chance of Japanese victory after that, although it took some time for it to be clear.
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Old 1st November 2019, 09:19 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
Based on the trailer I think it will be no more accurate than the film .

Ranb

First of all, WWII naval grognards refer to that as The Film That Must Not Be Named. Second, I find it extremely difficult to believe Midway could be that bad, especially with the advances in CGI that mean they won't have to use Perry-class frigates as stand-ins for WWII-era destroyers (for example).
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Old 1st November 2019, 09:28 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Second, I find it extremely difficult to believe Midway could be that bad, especially with the advances in CGI that mean they won't have to use Perry-class frigates as stand-ins for WWII-era destroyers (for example).
Bearing in mind the job they did with the BBs, I suspect they didn't really have to use them in The Film That Must Not Be Named either, and it was just done to save cost. Which, in fact, I don't object to that much; if they'd wanted to improve the film, fixing the CGI would come a distant second to the script, the plot, the acting, the direction, the basic concept of the story... there are so many things I'm still trying to forget about that film.

Dave
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Old 1st November 2019, 09:54 AM   #11
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Of course they were found. If they hadn't been found, they wouldn't have been sunk.
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Old 1st November 2019, 10:04 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Bearing in mind the job they did with the BBs, I suspect they didn't really have to use them in The Film That Must Not Be Named either, and it was just done to save cost. Which, in fact, I don't object to that much; if they'd wanted to improve the film, fixing the CGI would come a distant second to the script, the plot, the acting, the direction, the basic concept of the story... there are so many things I'm still trying to forget about that film.

Dave

Good point about the BBs. And yes, it's true that the modern ships as stand-ins might have been forgiven if the movie had had a good plot and characters. However, I didn't mean to imply that Midway will necessarily be good. I just meant that it's unlikely to be as bad as The Film That Must Not Be Named.
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Old 1st November 2019, 10:07 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
However, I didn't mean to imply that Midway will necessarily be good. I just meant that it's unlikely to be as bad as The Film That Must Not Be Named.
Oh, I realise that. It's just that the very mention of it triggers the flashbacks.

Dave
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Old 1st November 2019, 11:39 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by Dave Rogers View Post
Bearing in mind the job they did with the BBs, I suspect they didn't really have to use them in The Film That Must Not Be Named either, and it was just done to save cost. Which, in fact, I don't object to that much; if they'd wanted to improve the film, fixing the CGI would come a distant second to the script, the plot, the acting, the direction, the basic concept of the story... there are so many things I'm still trying to forget about that film.

Dave
If they stick to the real story and don't insert fictional persons for dramatic reason, then Midway should be far better.

I recall reading about a diver bomber who pulled out at 500 feet after releasing his bomb; the explosion killed him. The trailer shows a plane pulling out just above sea level and barely missing the ship it was trying to bomb. I'm trying to find out more about the bombing profiles of dive bombers, but I think the trailer is showing something misleading.
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Old 4th November 2019, 03:17 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
First of all, WWII naval grognards refer to that as The Film That Must Not Be Named. Second, I find it extremely difficult to believe Midway could be that bad, especially with the advances in CGI that mean they won't have to use Perry-class frigates as stand-ins for WWII-era destroyers (for example).
For it's flaws, Tora Tora Tora was a vastly better film on Pearl Harbor.
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Old 4th November 2019, 03:20 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
If they stick to the real story and don't insert fictional persons for dramatic reason, then Midway should be far better.

I recall reading about a diver bomber who pulled out at 500 feet after releasing his bomb; the explosion killed him. The trailer shows a plane pulling out just above sea level and barely missing the ship it was trying to bomb. I'm trying to find out more about the bombing profiles of dive bombers, but I think the trailer is showing something misleading.
This is Roland Emmerich we are talking about.
He used historical charecters for "Anoymous" and Anoynmous" is still the biggest piece of historical BS I have ever seen in a movie.
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Old 6th November 2019, 09:01 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
For it's flaws, Tora Tora Tora was a vastly better film on Pearl Harbor.

Absolutely. Whenever non-history buffs ask me about The Film That Must Not Be Named, I tell them to watch Tora! Tora! Tora! and Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo instead.
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Old 7th November 2019, 06:42 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by SpitfireIX View Post
Absolutely. Whenever non-history buffs ask me about The Film That Must Not Be Named, I tell them to watch Tora! Tora! Tora! and Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo instead.
And it they want a good drama about the military in Hawaii before Pearl Harbor, I recommend From Here To Eternity.
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Old 9th November 2019, 10:24 PM   #19
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I saw the movie Midway today. It was rated 6.2 on IMDB, so I considered worth the risk. I had to do something while my wife was shopping. I have to say I was pleasantly surprised. I recently read the book by Craig Symonds; the movie actually matches it well for something meant to be entertainment.

At 2 hours 18 minutes it was not too long. However it was not long enough to include events from December 1941 to the battle of Midway so it felt like things were shoehorned into place. The Japanese were fairly portrayed like they were in Tora Tora Tora. I thought some of the flight action, especially the diver bomber footage was "video gamish".

It has an ensemble cast, but sharing screen time with so many meant that the Nimitz and Best characters got the most.

The small amount of footage of the Dolittle raid was more accurate than the trash depicted in the movie Pearl Harbor.

The Japanese are shown war gaming the attack with senior officers refusing to believe that the Americans would not be surprised.

The movie depicts the US Army planes attacking from Midway as ineffective at bombing ships; their glide bombing technique failed to do any damage.

The American torpedoes were shown accurately as 100% duds although a single PBY did manage to score one hit on a tanker with a torpedo; not shown on screen.

It does show Nagumo's dilemma in regards to equipping his planes for land or sea attacks. It also touches on how vulnerable his carriers were to attack while fueling and arming planes in the hanger bay.

The plight of the Zero with their limited ammo load and requirement to frequently land to re-arm was barely touched upon although it does shown a pilot with empty tanks looking down on his burning carrier. The effect of the suicidal American torpedo plane attacks keeping the Zero CAP occupied while the dive bombers sunk the carriers was barely seen.

One scene shows an American officer and enlisted man plucked out of the ocean by a Japanese destroyer. When the enlisted man refuses to talk, he is thrown overboard with an anchor tied to his legs. This seems to be related to the violent interrogation of Ensign Osmus who gave up vital information (according to Japanese records found after the war) prior to be thrown overboard.

The night carrier landings with the risky lighting of the Enterprise was not shown.

It shows Ensign Gay's ringside seat to the battle after he was shot down.

Best's three plane attack on the Akagi was shown to be under fierce AA fire, actually the Japanese anti aircraft gunners only got off a few shots before the planes bombed them. It does show only one direct hit on the Akagi by LT. Best that sunk the carrier.

For some reason it does not show how fogging of the dive bomber wind screens was a constant problem for the bombers until they learned to open up their canopy a bit.

Lt. Best is shown successfully glide bombing across the flight deck of the Hiryu. He most likely dive bombed and possibly hit it with one bomb. It does accurately depict him inhaling caustic soda from his oxygen bottle which injured him enough to be hospitalized a month later and eventually discharged.
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Old 11th November 2019, 10:56 PM   #20
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No Coral Sea? The forgotten turning point. Two Japanese carriers removed from events at Midway.
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Old 12th November 2019, 04:20 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
No Coral Sea? The forgotten turning point. Two Japanese carriers removed from events at Midway.
I saw the New Movie, and Coral Sea gets about one minute in a shot of the Lexingron sinking.
And they spend more then ten minutes on Doolittle's escape from the Japanese in China. Just a coincidence, of course, Emmrich got most of his finiancing from Chinese Procution companies.

All in all, it is not quite as bad as I had feared from the director of "Anoymous".
He does treat history more respectfully then he has in his past historical films.
But his faults as a filmmaker remain:A fondness for really cheesy dialogue and way too much CGI action. Worst example: A dogfight in the Mountains of the Marshall Islands. problem being that Marshall islands have no mountians;thye are classic coral atolls, just about as flat as a pancake.
A few nice touches;showing John Ford Filming the attack on Midway Island,and makeup did do a good job of making Harrision look like Nimitz.
And they openly swipe Yamamoto's famous "we have awakened a sleeping giant"line from "Tora Tora Tora". Yamamoto did not really say that,it was created by the Tora TOra Tora screenwriters.
But King really did say, after he was made head of the Navy after Pearl Harbor '"When things get rough, they send for the Sons of Bitches". King was under no illusion that he was well liked in the service.
And the whole fiasco of the US Torpedo Squadrons at Midway was summed up in a good line from a Japanese Captian watching the attack: "Brave Men;lucky for us they have such bad planes".
The Devastator was indeed a disaster. US Navy knew, even before Pearl Harbor it was a bad plane, and were rushing a replacement into production as a high priority, but, even so, these thngs take time and they did not reach the fleet until July of 1942.
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Old 12th November 2019, 08:06 PM   #22
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USN torpedoes weren't so hot either...
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Old 13th November 2019, 05:29 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
USN torpedoes weren't so hot either...

The Torpedo scandal was probably the worst US weapons scandle of World War 2. It took nearly two years to solve the problems, thanks to the Navy's Bureau of Ordanance refusing to believe anything could be wrong with their Torpedos, and crediting the 50% failure to detonate on contact rate to user error....
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Old 14th November 2019, 12:38 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
No Coral Sea? The forgotten turning point. Two Japanese carriers removed from events at Midway.
The USS Lexington was found in march 2018.
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