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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:05 AM   #1001
Distracted1
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
There seldom is, which is why individual events can be excused as irrelevant to systemic bias.

No doubt there will always be a margin of error in such events, but perhaps it's time we allowed the error to be the assumption of bias when it's not there, rather than the denial of bias when it is. I suspect that the overall percentage of error would decrease.
You propose a "guilty unless proven innocent" approach.
In which it is impossible to prove innocence.

Tell me how The mentally ill woman could have "proven" that she was not racially motivated in this circumstance?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:23 AM   #1002
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Too much of these discussions revolve around the question of whether someone involved had the guilty internal state of "being racist".

It's a devilishly difficult claim to investigate unless the person calls out "I'm doing this for racist reasons!1 Bwahahahah!". Or maybe unless we subjected them to a high sample size of exactly equivalent situations with only the race changed.

I'm not personally THAT interested in identifying whether a particular person in a news story is or is not truly a racist in their deep inner soul. I don't think that gets at the real problem of racism in a meaningful way.

As people in this thread who otherwise disagree have pointed out, being treated differently, with suspiscion, as "not belonging here" is a pervasive issue. So for me, rather than the question of whether Braaaasch deserves a label, the question is how Yale could and should not make a student there feel treated as suspiscious because of her race.

Yale is an institution with the power to set and enforce policy, norms and training. Individuals are capricious, opaque and weird. Public sentiment isn't going to deeply understand or change Braasch. But it can motivate institutional policy.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:27 AM   #1003
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
There seldom is, which is why individual events can be excused as irrelevant to systemic bias.

No doubt there will always be a margin of error in such events, but perhaps it's time we allowed the error to be the assumption of bias when it's not there, rather than the denial of bias when it is. I suspect that the overall percentage of error would decrease.
That sounds solid in the abstract. Would you feel the same if it was you, personally, who were assumed to be racist and literally had no means of proving otherwise? I find that troubling when the rubber hits the road.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:29 AM   #1004
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Too much of these discussions revolve around the question of whether someone involved had the guilty internal state of "being racist".

It's a devilishly difficult claim to investigate unless the person calls out "I'm doing this for racist reasons!1 Bwahahahah!". Or maybe unless we subjected them to a high sample size of exactly equivalent situations with only the race changed.

I'm not personally THAT interested in identifying whether a particular person in a news story is or is not truly a racist in their deep inner soul. I don't think that gets at the real problem of racism in a meaningful way.

As people in this thread who otherwise disagree have pointed out, being treated differently, with suspiscion, as "not belonging here" is a pervasive issue. So for me, rather than the question of whether Braaaasch deserves a label, the question is how Yale could and should not make a student there feel treated as suspiscious because of her race.

Yale is an institution with the power to set and enforce policy, norms and training. Individuals are capricious, opaque and weird. Public sentiment isn't going to deeply understand or change Braasch. But it can motivate institutional policy.
Massive unwarranted starting assumption noted
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:31 AM   #1005
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Massive unwarranted starting assumption noted
Note that the highlighted was after the word "feel". It's well documented that she felt that way.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:50 AM   #1006
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Note that the highlighted was after the word "feel". It's well documented that she felt that way.
What she felt may very well have no relation to reality. That's hardly Yale's responsibility.

I assume that whatever Braasch's feelings were should also be attended to in kind, yes? Are you just as adamant about her feelings of persecution and Yale's response to them, or is this more of a one-way thing?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:59 AM   #1007
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
What she felt may very well have no relation to reality. That's hardly Yale's responsibility.
Disagree.
And i expect that at many levels of college decision making, the way that students feel is something some thought is put into.

I'm guessing that if Yale put out a press release saying something to the effect of: "We don't care how our students feel and our policies will not take their emotional state into consideration" it would not generally be well recieved.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:02 AM   #1008
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Disagree.
And i expect that at many levels of college decision making, the way that students feel is something some thought is put into.

I'm guessing that if Yale put out a press release saying something to the effect of: "We don't care how our students feel and our policies will not take their emotional state into consideration" it would not generally be well recieved.
It's almost like some people have never considered that certain treatments will cause most people to feel a certain way, and that changing the procedures for how to treat students could change how those students feel about how they are treated.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:05 AM   #1009
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Disagree.
And i expect that at many levels of college decision making, the way that students feel is something some thought is put into.

I'm guessing that if Yale put out a press release saying something to the effect of: "We don't care how our students feel and our policies will not take their emotional state into consideration" it would not generally be well recieved.
Note that I said if her feelings bear no relation to reality, not a dismissal of feelings in general.

So, how do Braachs feelings rate?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:12 AM   #1010
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Too much of these discussions revolve around the question of whether someone involved had the guilty internal state of "being racist".

It's a devilishly difficult claim to investigate unless the person calls out "I'm doing this for racist reasons!1 Bwahahahah!". Or maybe unless we subjected them to a high sample size of exactly equivalent situations with only the race changed.

I'm not personally THAT interested in identifying whether a particular person in a news story is or is not truly a racist in their deep inner soul. I don't think that gets at the real problem of racism in a meaningful way.

As people in this thread who otherwise disagree have pointed out, being treated differently, with suspiscion, as "not belonging here" is a pervasive issue. So for me, rather than the question of whether Braaaasch deserves a label, the question is how Yale could and should not make a student there feel treated as suspiscious because of her race.

Yale is an institution with the power to set and enforce policy, norms and training. Individuals are capricious, opaque and weird. Public sentiment isn't going to deeply understand or change Braasch. But it can motivate institutional policy.
Fair enough.

We'll probably never know for certain whether this lady was a racist or just a generally insufferable person that dials the cops to complain about petty nonsense. Either indicate a failure of character.

Your point about institutions is the more important one. Police have discretion and have a responsibility to not be tools for capricious people like in this example. Upon arrival, they never should have insisted on ID and should have chastised Braasch for wasting their time with petty calls.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:21 AM   #1011
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Note that I said if her feelings bear no relation to reality, not a dismissal of feelings in general.

So, how do Braachs feelings rate?
I think her feelings in this situation are best cared for by her mental health professional.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:36 AM   #1012
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
I think her feelings in this situation are best cared for by her mental health professional.
So you assert that Siyonbolas feelings, however detached from reality, need to be attended to by Yale, but Braasch needs to contract externally on her own? **** her, right? Bold move there, Cotton.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:43 AM   #1013
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So you assert that Siyonbolas feelings, however detached from reality, need to be attended to by Yale, but Braasch needs to contract externally on her own? **** her, right? Bold move there, Cotton.
Your sympathies seem very melanin correlated. You asked me in another thread to point out where you did that. Here's one.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:43 AM   #1014
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
So you assert that Siyonbolas feelings, however detached from reality, need to be attended to by Yale, but Braasch needs to contract externally on her own? **** her, right? Bold move there, Cotton.
Calling the cops to settle a petty dorm dispute is not a reasonable response. Being annoyed that the cops are detaining you over petty BS is a very healthy, good response.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:45 AM   #1015
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Your sympathies seem very melanin correlated.
So do yours, though?
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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:47 AM   #1016
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Fair enough.

We'll probably never know for certain whether this lady was a racist or just a generally insufferable person that dials the cops to complain about petty nonsense. Either indicate a failure of character.

Your point about institutions is the more important one. Police have discretion and have a responsibility to not be tools for capricious people like in this example. Upon arrival, they never should have insisted on ID and should have chastised Braasch for wasting their time with petty calls.
And to the black person she's currently victimising - it doesn't nor shouldn't matter. Also the police didn't exactly cover themselves in glory, either.



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Old 3rd March 2021, 10:57 AM   #1017
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
And to the black person she's currently victimising - it doesn't nor shouldn't matter. Also the police didn't exactly cover themselves in glory, either.



"I'm picking on that black person because I have an unreasonable personal prejudice against them and not an unreasonable general prejudice against their race" sO tHaT iS AlLrIgHt
That both things are "not allright" is obvious. That does not however, make them the same.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 12:27 PM   #1018
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Originally Posted by Cavemonster View Post
Your sympathies seem very melanin correlated. You asked me in another thread to point out where you did that. Here's one.
I ask that both be treated the same, and color-blindly, which they were. Both asked for ID, and the one quickly determined to be in the wrong (Braasch) immediately reprimanded.

Tell.me all about the double standard I am employing. While you're at it, you skunk away from citing the numerous threads that I am VERY disposed to attack the complainant.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 12:31 PM   #1019
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
Calling the cops to settle a petty dorm dispute is not a reasonable response. Being annoyed that the cops are detaining you over petty BS is a very healthy, good response.
Agreed. And?

Siyonbola had every right to be annoyed. Are you suggesting she was not bright enough to realize that the responding officers didn't know what was going on yet, and didn't know she had every right to sleep in Braasch Towers? That's racist. I would take it as a given that a grad student would be sharp enough to work that out.

Kidding about "that's racist", btw. I know you could figure that out but I also know there is a poster or two here that couldn't.
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Old 3rd March 2021, 02:29 PM   #1020
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Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You propose a "guilty unless proven innocent" approach.
In which it is impossible to prove innocence.

Tell me how The mentally ill woman could have "proven" that she was not racially motivated in this circumstance?
Nothing can be proven either way, of course. It's not exactly a guilty unless proven innocent situation, when the default case is to count the complainer as guilty. I am not confusing legal principles with attitudes.
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Old 4th March 2021, 06:45 AM   #1021
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But police harassment can happen to anyone there was never any proof it was racially motivated.
Originally Posted by bruto View Post
There seldom is, which is why individual events can be excused as irrelevant to systemic bias.

No doubt there will always be a margin of error in such events, but perhaps it's time we allowed the error to be the assumption of bias when it's not there, rather than the denial of bias when it is. I suspect that the overall percentage of error would decrease.
Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
That sounds solid in the abstract. Would you feel the same if it was you, personally, who were assumed to be racist and literally had no means of proving otherwise? I find that troubling when the rubber hits the road.
Originally Posted by Distracted1 View Post
You propose a "guilty unless proven innocent" approach.
In which it is impossible to prove innocence.

Tell me how The mentally ill woman could have "proven" that she was not racially motivated in this circumstance?
Read the exchange again.

It is not a criminal trial. It is not even between individuals, it's looking at the behaviour of the police with respect to someone who had been maliciously reported as trespassing.

There is clear statistical evidence of systemic racial discrimination in US policing.

It is appropriate that in any such complaint the benefit of the doubt is given to the individual - due to the disparity in power between the state and the individual, combined with the data that shows a general pattern of racially discriminatory acts by many police forces.
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Old 4th March 2021, 06:49 AM   #1022
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed. And?

Siyonbola had every right to be annoyed. Are you suggesting she was not bright enough to realize that the responding officers didn't know what was going on yet, and didn't know she had every right to sleep in Braasch Towers? That's racist. I would take it as a given that a grad student would be sharp enough to work that out.

Kidding about "that's racist", btw. I know you could figure that out but I also know there is a poster or two here that couldn't.
It's reasonable for people to expect that police don't let themselves be useful tools for frivolous and malicious 911 calls, and it's entirely fair for Siyonbola to criticize the cops for insisting on ID and otherwise intruding on her life well after it is plainly obvious that they aren't needed.

I don't fault the cops for showing up, but it's entirely fair to criticize them for insisting on ID and other such "investigation" when it was plainly obvious that this was a pointless call.
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Old 4th March 2021, 06:50 AM   #1023
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Agreed. And?

Siyonbola had every right to be annoyed. Are you suggesting she was not bright enough to realize that the responding officers didn't know what was going on yet, and didn't know she had every right to sleep in Braasch Towers? That's racist. I would take it as a given that a grad student would be sharp enough to work that out.

Kidding about "that's racist", btw. I know you could figure that out but I also know there is a poster or two here that couldn't.
Don't be silly.

It is not the job of a citizen (or even non-citizen) to second-guess what a public servant is thinking.

It's utterly irrelevant to the situation.

It was part of the role of the police to work out as soon as possible that Siyonbola was the victim of a malicious report, especially when her name was on the system, albeit with a typo.
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Old 4th March 2021, 07:16 AM   #1024
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Read the exchange again.

It is not a criminal trial. It is not even between individuals, it's looking at the behaviour of the police with respect to someone who had been maliciously reported as trespassing.

There is clear statistical evidence of systemic racial discrimination in US policing.

It is appropriate that in any such complaint the benefit of the doubt is given to the individual - due to the disparity in power between the state and the individual, combined with the data that shows a general pattern of racially discriminatory acts by many police forces.
Ah but sure collectively cops are racist but the standard being advocated here is that you can never bring that up in an specific instance and you need very clear and unequivocal proof that the cops were out to get the blacks at the time.
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Old 4th March 2021, 07:22 AM   #1025
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ah but sure collectively cops are racist but the standard being advocated here is that you can never bring that up in an specific instance and you need very clear and unequivocal proof that the cops were out to get the blacks at the time.
I wish I could argue that you were being ridiculous.

Instead we get an attack of the vapours if it's suggested that we work on the starting presumption that racial discrimination is a factor where the victims of unfair policing practices are black.
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Old 4th March 2021, 07:33 AM   #1026
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ah but sure collectively cops are racist but the standard being advocated here is that you can never bring that up in an specific instance and you need very clear and unequivocal proof that the cops were out to get the blacks at the time.
If one is claiming that they were then yes, obviously.
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Old 4th March 2021, 07:35 AM   #1027
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Ah but sure collectively cops are racist but the standard being advocated here is that you can never bring that up in an specific instance and you need very clear and unequivocal proof that the cops were out to get the blacks at the time.

The cigarette companies kept their profits rolling in for years using this strategy.
"Well, maybe some research shows cigarettes cause cancer, but you can't prove here in this court that our cigarettes caused this cancer. So we aren't guilty."
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Old 4th March 2021, 08:03 AM   #1028
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Originally Posted by quadraginta View Post
The cigarette companies kept their profits rolling in for years using this strategy.
"Well, maybe some research shows cigarettes cause cancer, but you can't prove here in this court that our cigarettes caused this cancer. So we aren't guilty."
You do see that the implication there is that "all cops are racist at all times, even if you can't prove it", don't you? Is that really a fair thing to say?
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Old 4th March 2021, 08:17 AM   #1029
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
Don't be silly.

It is not the job of a citizen (or even non-citizen) to second-guess what a public servant is thinking.
Right. It's the job of a citizen to comply with a lawful order, even if they know it is BS and will be worked out in short order. Again, I've been in a similar situation many, many times. A cop gets a call for a trespasser (me), but I am just a contractor checking on a site after hours. So I show ID and get it cleared up quickly, done and done. It's not a civil rights breach.

I wonder how many posters here have been in a similar situation? What would you do? Pitch a fit to the cops about how you don't have to do anything because YOU know what is going on, but they don't?

Quote:
It's utterly irrelevant to the situation.

It was part of the role of the police to work out as soon as possible that Siyonbola was the victim of a malicious report, especially when her name was on the system, albeit with a typo.
Exactly what they did. Cops, you may be surprised to hear, are pretty meticulous about ID accuracy. Dan Skedoodle and Don Skedoodle may be related, or just have similar names. They have to be right on. That doesn't make it racist, unless you are saying the black cop was racist against the black woman?
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Old 4th March 2021, 08:47 AM   #1030
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Right. It's the job of a citizen to comply with a lawful order, even if they know it is BS and will be worked out in short order
And that goes doubly for unlawful or unconstitutional orders.
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Old 4th March 2021, 08:50 AM   #1031
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Right. It's the job of a citizen to comply with a lawful order, even if they know it is BS and will be worked out in short order. Again, I've been in a similar situation many, many times. A cop gets a call for a trespasser (me), but I am just a contractor checking on a site after hours. So I show ID and get it cleared up quickly, done and done. It's not a civil rights breach.

I wonder how many posters here have been in a similar situation? What would you do? Pitch a fit to the cops about how you don't have to do anything because YOU know what is going on, but they don't?



Exactly what they did. Cops, you may be surprised to hear, are pretty meticulous about ID accuracy. Dan Skedoodle and Don Skedoodle may be related, or just have similar names. They have to be right on. That doesn't make it racist, unless you are saying the black cop was racist against the black woman?
I don't see your point. The woman did show her ID, and then she publicly embarrassed the frivolous 911 caller and the police department that was too stupid to use a tiny bit of discretion. If press releases from Yale are to be believed, it lead to some reflection on how they will police their campus.

Challenging cops and pointing out that their procedures are **** is a time honored tradition. It's patriotic to be rude to cops.

If this incident plays a small role in the conversation about the over-policing of our society, or the burden, big and small, that cops inflict disproportionately on minority communities, then it was a worthwhile exercise.

Is that what the problem is to you, that she had a bad attitude about it?
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Old 4th March 2021, 10:06 AM   #1032
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Originally Posted by SuburbanTurkey View Post
I don't see your point. The woman did show her ID, and then she publicly embarrassed the frivolous 911 caller and the police department that was too stupid to use a tiny bit of discretion. If press releases from Yale are to be believed, it lead to some reflection on how they will police their campus.

Challenging cops and pointing out that their procedures are **** is a time honored tradition. It's patriotic to be rude to cops.

If this incident plays a small role in the conversation about the over-policing of our society, or the burden, big and small, that cops inflict disproportionately on minority communities, then it was a worthwhile exercise.

Is that what the problem is to you, that she had a bad attitude about it?
No, I totally get the bad attitude. I'd have one myself in the same situation. The difference is, I would understand that the cops don't know what is going on. They have no idea, till everyone gets IDed. So IME, you give the cops some cooperation till they are up to speed. When the cops got up to speed here, they dressed down Braasch immediately. That's exactly how it should have gone.

Being resistant to cops who aren't up to speed yet is needlessly delaying the resolution. If other variables were different, such as Siyonbola being asked for ID but not Braasch, then we have a whole different story. As it went down, the cops were +/- ideal in their treatment.

Regarding the spelling thing, I get that from experience, too. My NJ Firearm card has to match EXACTLY to my ID. By that I mean if a middle initial is used on one, and the full middle name on the other, it is deemed "not a match". I chose carefully to make the spelling match to my drivers license, not my birth certificate. That's how ID checkers often roll. Here, they took the couple minutes to cross the Ts. Did the cops refuse her ID because it didn't match exactly? No. They were confident it was a typo and moved on. Again, if they refused to accept the slight variation on the ID, we'd have a different story.

My overall take is that Braasch was not racist, but was a territorial nut. The cops behaved as they should have. The story here is not "Aha! Racism! Gotcha!", but "here's what being around a territorial mentally ill person off her meds looks like" .
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Old 4th March 2021, 02:09 PM   #1033
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
You do see that the implication there is that "all cops are racist at all times, even if you can't prove it", don't you? Is that really a fair thing to say?
So long as most cops keep covering up for racist cops it seems like the only fair thing to say.

If there were a real push in the US for cops to clean up their own departments then I think I could be convinced otherwise. But so far they seem to just like to add racist symbols to their uniforms,
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Old 4th March 2021, 02:22 PM   #1034
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
So long as most cops keep covering up for racist cops it seems like the only fair thing to say.

If there were a real push in the US for cops to clean up their own departments then I think I could be convinced otherwise. But so far they seem to just like to add racist symbols to their uniforms,
While there's a lot of truth there, esp wrt unions and those Punisher patches, it still feels like an icky default. .

White people really suck. I mean, like Scourge of the Planet and all History suck. So should I assume that you suck and are a genocidal , mysoginistic freak by default? Setting aside what I actually know about you, for the moment.

I try not to have a broad brush for group behavior. Cops do this, black people do that, Satanic pedophile cannibals do the other.
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Old 5th March 2021, 11:40 AM   #1035
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
While there's a lot of truth there, esp wrt unions and those Punisher patches, it still feels like an icky default. .

White people really suck. I mean, like Scourge of the Planet and all History suck. So should I assume that you suck and are a genocidal , mysoginistic freak by default?
I think that is a safe approach until you know better.

Quote:
Setting aside what I actually know about you, for the moment.
Yeah, because that would really improve my score.

Quote:
I try not to have a broad brush for group behavior. Cops do this, black people do that, Satanic pedophile cannibals do the other.
It is not so much that cops do bad things. Every group includes people who do bad things. What bothers me is that cops, as a whole, fight every attempt to root out the bad actors or hold the bad actors responsible. It is a place where bad people are coddled, where they can find a warm embrace. That is what bothers me.

If you are a racist jerk who has trouble respecting women and minorities it may be one of the few jobs you can still get. Other than selling cars.
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Old 5th March 2021, 03:21 PM   #1036
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I still think there's a basic mistake here in how things are looked at.

Nobody reasonable would say all cops are racists and all cop actions racist, etc.

The problem remains that, in a society in which bias is ingrained, it is also largely invisible and un-provable. If you look at individual events, you often cannot see racism, whether it's there or not. But looking at these individual events as if they were the independent flips of a coin dismisses the real cumulative concern of those whose lives have been continually worsened by small, hardly visible discriminations.

As it stands now, the default position of many who are not racists, and the almost inevitable position of those who really are racists, is the same: you can't prove bias in this particular instance. And so it continues, and nothing changes.

There is bound to be ambiguity and error sometimes. But I suggest that, at least for a while, we change the default, or at least pause before automatically applying it. A person's life is not a run of coin flips. Even if we don't see the pattern, we need to listen when they say they can. Things that seem trivial one at a time are not trivial over a lifetime, and our unjust society will never get better if we keep pretending.
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Old 5th March 2021, 03:48 PM   #1037
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Originally Posted by bruto View Post
I still think there's a basic mistake here in how things are looked at.

Nobody reasonable would say all cops are racists and all cop actions racist, etc.

The problem remains that, in a society in which bias is ingrained, it is also largely invisible and un-provable. If you look at individual events, you often cannot see racism, whether it's there or not. But looking at these individual events as if they were the independent flips of a coin dismisses the real cumulative concern of those whose lives have been continually worsened by small, hardly visible discriminations.

As it stands now, the default position of many who are not racists, and the almost inevitable position of those who really are racists, is the same: you can't prove bias in this particular instance. And so it continues, and nothing changes.

There is bound to be ambiguity and error sometimes. But I suggest that, at least for a while, we change the default, or at least pause before automatically applying it. A person's life is not a run of coin flips. Even if we don't see the pattern, we need to listen when they say they can. Things that seem trivial one at a time are not trivial over a lifetime, and our unjust society will never get better if we keep pretending.
True, but a double edged sword. If the assuming the lowest traits is our default, that keeps fueling the fires of resentment. Racism always has to be kept open as a possibility in a nasty exchange, even a likelihood, but smacking someone in the face with the label from word go is not going to help anyone.
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Old 5th March 2021, 04:21 PM   #1038
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
True, but a double edged sword. If the assuming the lowest traits is our default, that keeps fueling the fires of resentment. Racism always has to be kept open as a possibility in a nasty exchange, even a likelihood, but smacking someone in the face with the label from word go is not going to help anyone.
Yes, far better to "help" by always assuming the victim of each event is over-reacting or making it up each and every time while the perpetrator gets the benefit of the doubt. Always punch down, it gets the best result.
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Old 5th March 2021, 04:29 PM   #1039
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Originally Posted by wareyin View Post
Yes, far better to "help" by always assuming the victim of each event is over-reacting or making it up each and every time while the perpetrator gets the benefit of the doubt. Always punch down, it gets the best result.
Actually, the opposite. Don't assume ANYTHING, and didn't yo mamma teach you not to punch others?

Why does 'dont punch othsrs' (metaphorically) have to be such a high ******* bar?
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Old 5th March 2021, 04:35 PM   #1040
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Originally Posted by Thermal View Post
Actually, the opposite. Don't assume ANYTHING, and didn't yo mamma teach you not to punch others?

Why does 'dont punch othsrs' (metaphorically) have to be such a high ******* bar?
Of course, arguing against the oppressed every single time is assuming something. And always making the victim jump through more hoops while giving the attacker the benefit of the doubt isn't exactly the moral high ground you seem to think it is.
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