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#441 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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That's the perception of the scientific MO favoured here and elsewhere by homo interneticus. It possesses a certain parochial charm (notably in cyberspace) but has no practical utility whatsoever in the real world of open-minded, open-ended research, where the chief aim is to generate new testable hypotheses that, right or wrong, generate new data, new thinking, new hypotheses, still more new data etc etc.
PS: Has it not occurred to you that a Model 10, beloved or otherwise, could possibly have required killing one's own ideas along the way through Models 1-9? But the killing was not done from the comfort of an armchair, maybe wiki-aided from a laptop. Each of those Models 1-9 was the subject of its own experimental testing programme in which all preconceptions were laid to one side until the new data were in and current thinking, right or wrong, was re-evaluated. It's called science (the real constructive, model-building/model testing variety). |
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#442 | |||
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 14,605
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My kids still love me. |
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#443 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 17,479
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Who is General Failure? And why is he reading my hard drive? |
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#444 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 15,171
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#445 |
Philosopher
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In my head.
Posts: 7,758
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"If I hadn't believed it with my own mind, I would never have seen it." - thanks sackett "If you stand on a piece of paper, you are indeed closer to the moon." - MRC_Hans "I was a believer. Until I saw it." - Magrat |
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#446 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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Thanks Donn. I generally know when I'm getting close (sindonology's control freaks instantly go into overdrive - with the result my site drops out of entry-level search engine listings (e.g under 'shroud of turin' plain and simple) first from google.com (USA) and now google.uk, google.ca etc).
Sindonology is an INDUSTRY that brooks no opposition!!!! Spare a thought for the poor dears: life's getting tougher by the day as sindonology runs out of new pseudoscience with which to bamboozle the media and faithful! |
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#447 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Just short of Zeta II Reticuli
Posts: 1,338
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"You do not know anyone as stupid as Donald Trump. You just don’t.”-Fran Lebowitz "A target doesn't need to be preselected"-Jabba |
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#448 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Just short of Zeta II Reticuli
Posts: 1,338
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"You do not know anyone as stupid as Donald Trump. You just don’t.”-Fran Lebowitz "A target doesn't need to be preselected"-Jabba |
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#449 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Just short of Zeta II Reticuli
Posts: 1,338
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"You do not know anyone as stupid as Donald Trump. You just don’t.”-Fran Lebowitz "A target doesn't need to be preselected"-Jabba |
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#450 |
Penultimate Amazing
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Iowa USA
Posts: 12,131
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"Sufficiently advanced malice is indistinguishable from incompetence. = godless Dave |
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#451 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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I'll give technical details if there are reasonable grounds for enquiring. In this instance, there's not, since we are merely talking about plain old light microscopy, an adjunct to ordinary eyesight. The only difference is that I saw a sharper image through the eyepiece, but had to replace the latter with solid state electronics in order to get an annoyingly fuzzier image that could be displayed on screen and uploaded to my site and then here in response to a reasonable request.
What you see is what you get - two subsets of fibres, one faintly coloured, the other uncoloured. That's the so-called 'half-tone' effect, an alleged characteristic of Shroud image-bearing threads according to the Mark Evans' so-called photomicrographs (which were strictly speaking only deserving of the description photomacrographs, and indeed would have benefited from (a) higher magnification and (b) some gentle teasing apart of individual fibres to break up the skeins. Your comment that there was no evidence for encrustation in the tape-lift samples is totally at odds with Rogers' own claims, namely that the body image is not on the linen per se but on a highly superficial impurity coating, starch-derived, with Maillard/melanoidin browning products chromophore, one that is no more than 200-600nm thick, that is detachable when fibres are pulled out of the Mylar adhesive, leaving behind what Rogers described as "ghosts". My model differs in important respects: there are essentially two images. One is detachable solid encrustation which appears to be particulate on the Shroud we see today with added contrast (or 'edge-definition' which I consider to be a type of contrast as per cartoons) and which may or may not be present on a particular image thread. The other is the faint coloration of individual fibres that is probably non-particulate except maybe at exceedingly high magnification, e.g. x1000 (polymeric melanoidins being solids) and is essentially non-detachable, best described as a superficial stain, derived from seepage of a liquid from the initial oven-generated encrustation at high temperature, and which I consider to be the REAL enigmatic, iconic, ghostly permanent Shroud image that separates and indeed polarizes viewers into two factions: miraculists and non-miraculists. |
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#452 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Just short of Zeta II Reticuli
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Just as for your Zeke work, the details are unimportant to you; got it. You think the conditions aren't pertinent because you don't have an understanding of microscopy. Your respnses here and to the Zeke posts amount to "just take my word for it".
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Well, at least his photos were in focus. ![]()
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If by encrustation you mean at the level of individual fibers then I agree. McCrone saw and took numerous photos of the chromophore particles clinging in clumps to individual fibers and small bundles of fibers. He also found a pale yellow substance on the particles and fibers that gave a positive test for protein, which he interpreted as the tempera medium for the artist's paint. And FWIW the adhesive on "Scotch"-type tapes isn't Mylar, it's typically acrylic-based. The backing of the tape could be Mylar (polyester). |
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"You do not know anyone as stupid as Donald Trump. You just don’t.”-Fran Lebowitz "A target doesn't need to be preselected"-Jabba |
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#453 |
Graduate Poster
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Just short of Zeta II Reticuli
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"You do not know anyone as stupid as Donald Trump. You just don’t.”-Fran Lebowitz "A target doesn't need to be preselected"-Jabba |
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#454 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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#455 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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Maybe you don't have an understanding of how to use search engines.
![]() The 10 models are in Appendix 3 of my January 2017 'gluten fleck' posting (which incidentally gave evidence for a semi-particulate body image and/or imprinting mechanism long before Zeke came along). |
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#456 |
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"You do not know anyone as stupid as Donald Trump. You just don’t.”-Fran Lebowitz "A target doesn't need to be preselected"-Jabba |
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#457 |
Thinker
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Posts: 232
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#458 |
Thinker
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 232
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This message was sent a few minutes ago to the long-established (mid 19th century) Quekett Microscopical Club:
Hello all you splendid Queketteers, amateurs and pros alike! Is there anyone here among you interested in the Turin Shroud? I refer in particular to the ongoing problem as to how it acquired its faint allegedly enigmatic body image (negative, 3D properties, peculiar microscopic properties - like the so-called half-tone effect, colour discontinuities etc)? Rarely a month goes by without some new mind-blowing scenario - pulsed laser beams, earthquakes, nuclear radiation, Da Vinci dabbling with proto-photoigraphy etc etc. I've been attempting to model the Shroud image for some 5 years, and have settled on what I call Model 10, aka the roasted flour imprint. Yes, it's mundane alongside the ones just listed, but there you go, that's science bizz. (Smear back of hand with vegetable oil, sprinkle with plain white flour from above, shake off excess flour, drape wet linen over flour-dusted hand, press linen firmly to capture a flour-imprint, suspend linen in oven, roast (approx 180-200 C) till the imprint turns yellow or brown, wash vigorously to remove surface encrustation of Maillard browning products, to be left with an 'enigmatic' faint sepia stain - a negative image of one's hand and fingers that gives a 3D response in ImageJ). It's the microscopy that proving the problem - the cylindrical 3Dness of linen fibres, their light-refracting properties. Having a bargain-basement microscope that relies on a web cam to capture (blurred!) images on a laptop screen does not help either. There are two possible solutions: 1. Invest in a better DIY microscope, hoping someone here can give expert advice 2. Seek one or more collaborators who's interested in the Shroud, and willing to be supplied with my Model 10 fibres, maybe with a view to submitting a joint publication to Quekett's own peer-reviewed journal. I think my Model 10 is the answer, confirming medieval manufacture in accordance with the radiocarbon dating (1260-1390) but if the image fibres fail to match up to the microscopic properties described by STURP and other investigators, then I'm willing to publically concede defeat (that being an occupational hazard of being a scientist, in this instance long-retired). Here's a link to my specialist Shroud site: https://shroudofturinwithoutallthehype.wordpress.com/ See also the recent thread on the International Skeptics Forum, where I participated as "meccanoman". (Link provided to this site) Colin Berry (PhD) |
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