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Old 18th March 2018, 05:16 AM   #441
Jack by the hedge
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I can't quite see how this nerve agent business benefits Putin. It has happened just a few months before the World Cup in Russia, which he would like to go smoothly. There are still business relationships between companies like BP in Russia which Putin would not like to see disrupted...

Do you imagine Putin needs to remain in favour with BP more than vice versa? Do you imagine this affair is making Putin any less popular at home? Do you foresee any risk that anyone beyond possibly England might boycott the World Cup and even if they do, who do you imagine the Russian people will blame for somewhat spoiling the show?
All this fuss benefits Putin in the election right now by getting the voters to turn out and support the strong man who defends Russia against unjust foreign accusers.
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Old 18th March 2018, 05:51 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I can't quite see how this nerve agent business benefits Putin. It has happened just a few months before the World Cup in Russia, which he would like to go smoothly. There are still business relationships between companies like BP in Russia which Putin would not like to see disrupted.

I don't know how close Putin has been to the Russian mafia in the past. Putin did not murder Litvinenko himself. The Russian Mafia operates in Israel, and the United States, and the UK.

This may come as surprise to some people on this forum but there is a war going on in Syria. Britain and America and Israel, and the Turkey genocide people, want to topple Assad, and they and their journalists militarily support the Syrian head chopper opposition. Russia supports Assad, and this is now causing political friction:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ets-of-britain
The fact you cannot understand how eliminating one opponent to Putin's regime and acting as a deterrent to others is not of benefit to Putin only points to defects in your understanding, not in a lack of benefit to the Putin regime.

No one is arguing Putin carried out any murders himself. This is a straw man argument. The fact that you utilise this shows how weak your case is. Putin may well have not ordered either specific murder himself, there is probably a more general view that traitors should be subject to punishment and if they are exiles or defectors then examples should be made. Using polonium or a nerve gas is flamboyant, it is intended to attract attention it is a warning.

Assassination by Russian agencies against those who slander Putin ("those slandering the individual occupying the post of president of the Russian Federation") is allowed by Russian law.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/6188658.stm
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Old 18th March 2018, 08:45 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by Planigale View Post
Motive; if you spy against Russia do not think you can 'defect' and get away with it. This is a message to all the other Russian exiles in the UK.

Dude, they let him go in a prisoner exchange and he lived peacefully in the UK for a decade or so. A small light.

It's quite amusing to see the line of posts who simply cannot think logical about this without mixing it with the other fairy tales they were fed. As I said "Don't you know he's evil?" is the implicit argument that makes you buy the BS. Totally conditioned.

Well, I'll go see how the most evil one gets elected by his people for the fourth time today, with overwhelming support the "political" slime we have to live with in "the West" - and the Brits certainly shine there - can only dream of. And they will fume, oh will they fume. And can do nothing about it but fear-monger their "unenlightened domestic audience" a bit more.

If you want to play might makes right, make sure you have some might.
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Old 18th March 2018, 08:55 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
My own (amateur) theory is that Putin has likely personally approved a general policy to eliminate exiled "enemies of the state" when opportunities present themselves, but isn't personally concerned with details such as approving specific targets or individual operations, those things being handled at the agency level.

For instance there was probably no special, focused priority on killing Skripal right now; his name was on a list, and his Moscow-based daughter making a trip to see him provided an opportunity which was taken advantage of.
I agree, sorry to Godwin the thread, but this is like Hitler and the Jews.He wanted rid. How it was done was left to the local commanders, who were safe in the knowledge they could kill without getting into trouble.
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Old 18th March 2018, 11:14 AM   #445
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Dude, they let him go in a prisoner exchange and he lived peacefully in the UK for a decade or so. A small light.

It's quite amusing to see the line of posts who simply cannot think logical about this without mixing it with the other fairy tales they were fed. As I said "Don't you know he's evil?" is the implicit argument that makes you buy the BS. Totally conditioned.

Well, I'll go see how the most evil one gets elected by his people for the fourth time today, with overwhelming support the "political" slime we have to live with in "the West" - and the Brits certainly shine there - can only dream of. And they will fume, oh will they fume. And can do nothing about it but fear-monger their "unenlightened domestic audience" a bit more.

If you want to play might makes right, make sure you have some might.
So they got their cake and ate it. They got their agents back and still got to punish their traitor. They also got to give out a message. As the saying goes revenge is a dish best eaten cold. Waiting actually gives out a message - don't think because you have been away 10 years we have forgotten about you. Don't think if you keep quiet for a bit become a British citizen that gives you a right to bad mouth Putin.

Stalin won elections by an overwhelming majority. I am sure that there is a correlation between the percentage of the vote a leader wins by and 'freedom' of the election. Funny how so may opponents have been disenfranchised before they could challenge Putin in an election.

Did you read the reference to how the Russian law allows the assassination of people who slander Putin?

Last edited by Planigale; 18th March 2018 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 18th March 2018, 11:35 AM   #446
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I can't quite see how this nerve agent business benefits Putin. It has happened just a few months before the World Cup in Russia, which he would like to go smoothly. There are still business relationships between companies like BP in Russia which Putin would not like to see disrupted.
Henri, again, I can name dozens of things Putin and/or the FSB have done in the past that he could just chalk up to "Western propaganda" and do it anyway. Just read about his FSB, sheesh, the main breakaway of the old KGB.

One example: the 1999 bombings are widely believed to have been false flag attacks, and the circumstantial evidence is very strong. Putin was at an APEC Summit in New Zealand during the third bombing.

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He still relies on plausible deniability to this very day, with media like RT and Sputnik as extra muscle to push his point.

You don't even need to go back that far,...look at the Ukraine mess and he risked it all there to gain support at home, not giving an ish what the world thought.
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Old 18th March 2018, 12:00 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by Venom View Post

He still relies on plausible deniability to this very day, with media like RT and Sputnik as extra muscle to push his point.

You don't even need to go back that far,...look at the Ukraine mess and he risked it all there to gain support at home, not giving an ish what the world thought.
"There are no Russian troops in Crimea"
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Old 18th March 2018, 02:34 PM   #448
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Degenerated spinmeisters padding each other on the back for psyop going according to plan:

Originally Posted by Your Taxes
Among senior ministers and officials, there's quiet satisfaction that the Russia crisis seems to be going according to plan. Maybe even better.

According to one senior government source, "it's gone at least as well as we'd hoped".

He didn't add, "...so far, anyway". But then he hardly needed to. As Britain ponders its new post-Brexit role in the world, we're now witnessing the start of a new and defining phase.

Judging the high and the low politics of the Russia crisis objectively, Theresa May and her team have been able to tick a series of boxes. So far, anyway. [...]

That's how stupid they think you are. It's right in your face.

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Old 18th March 2018, 03:02 PM   #449
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I must admit that Theresa May has hidden her ability as an evil genius very effectively.
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Old 18th March 2018, 03:07 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I agree, sorry to Godwin the thread, but this is like Hitler and the Jews.He wanted rid. How it was done was left to the local commanders, who were safe in the knowledge they could kill without getting into trouble.
Agree... bit it wouldn't shock me if Pooty had some input as to method.
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Old 18th March 2018, 03:16 PM   #451
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Originally Posted by jimbob View Post
I must admit that Theresa May has hidden her ability as an evil genius very effectively.

Theresa May is way below these spinmeisters in the hierarchy of late capitalism theatre, my friend.
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Old 18th March 2018, 03:17 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Degenerated spinmeisters padding each other on the back for psyop going according to plan:




That's how stupid they think you are. It's right in your face.

Rather, thats how stupid you think we are.

Obviously that article in no way says what you are suggesting with your out of context quotes. It is talking about how well the response is going for the UK government what with the US and EU being broadly supportive and all those things going about as well as they could have hoped for.


Why would you be so incredibly dishonest like this?

Maybe you really are just a troll, I have to think that a sincere person would not be so intellectually low as to quote stuff out of context in that way.

If you are actually sincere in your defense of all things Putin then I guess you just have very low morals. If you believe in something so strongly that you can justify intellectual dishonesty in your tactics then you are not a person worth arguing with.
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Old 18th March 2018, 03:37 PM   #453
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Originally Posted by mifune View Post
Rather, thats how stupid you think we are.

Obviously that article in no way says what you are suggesting with your out of context quotes. It is talking about how well the response is going for the UK government what with the US and EU being broadly supportive and all those things going about as well as they could have hoped for.


Why would you be so incredibly dishonest like this?

Maybe you really are just a troll, I have to think that a sincere person would not be so intellectually low as to quote stuff out of context in that way.

If you are actually sincere in your defense of all things Putin then I guess you just have very low morals. If you believe in something so strongly that you can justify intellectual dishonesty in your tactics then you are not a person worth arguing with.

Foaming, I tell you, foaming they are in their tax-payer-funded UFO shaped building not in St. Petersburg.
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Old 18th March 2018, 04:06 PM   #454
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John Pilger, one of the few still-active investigative journalists the anglosphere can actually be proud of, yet has long been on "not invited" status on UK corporate media, cuts it down in six minutes on RT:

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Old 18th March 2018, 08:49 PM   #455
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
John Pilger, one of the few still-active investigative journalists the anglosphere can actually be proud of, yet has long been on "not invited" status on UK corporate media, cuts it down in six minutes on RT:

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Old 18th March 2018, 09:59 PM   #456
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The Western Stalinists seem to be competing to see which one can get the furthest up Putin's ass.
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Old 18th March 2018, 10:22 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
John Pilger, one of the few still-active investigative journalists the anglosphere can actually be proud of, yet has long been on "not invited" status on UK corporate media, cuts it down in six minutes on RT:

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"We're currently joined in the RT Studios today, by documentary film maker and Jimmy Saville impersonator - Mr. John Pilger, Ladies and Gentlemen..."

Oh ..dear, this is getting ugly ...
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Old 19th March 2018, 12:52 AM   #458
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So a Russian spokesman has said that the issue was of benefit to Putin in his election. We can add another motive; the attempted murder has been admitted to have been of benefit to Putin.

Pilger - why should Putin do this before an election?
Answer because it boosted Putin's vote.
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Old 19th March 2018, 02:37 AM   #459
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Perhaps not so much the attempted murder itself; but easily the fact that that Putin (directly or via bullhorns like RT) can say "oh boo-hoo, the evil West and their evil lies picking on us again because they hate Russian people, so unfair". It makes asking questions like "Why would Putin do this right before an election/the World Cup/whatever" rather silly, as if there was some meaningful negative consequence Putin might face.
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Old 19th March 2018, 02:48 AM   #460
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
Degenerated spinmeisters padding each other on the back for psyop going according to plan:

That's how stupid they think you are. It's right in your face.
All that demonstrates is your misunderstanding of the nuances of the English language.
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Old 19th March 2018, 02:55 AM   #461
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
John Pilger, one of the few still-active investigative journalists the anglosphere can actually be proud of, yet has long been on "not invited" status on UK corporate media, cuts it down in six minutes on RT:

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Pilger used up all the credit he previously accumulated in the Bank of Credibility quite some time ago, and is now seriously in the red.

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Old 19th March 2018, 03:31 AM   #462
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Bonkers Boris has just said that he has evidence that the Russians have been making stockpiles of novichok for years. Why doesn't he present this so-called evidence to the public and the House of Commons then? To me it looks like a bare faced lie, or just an opinion, like Blair and his so-called evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Israel and Turkey are quite capable of making novichok, and they are keen to discredit Putin because of Syria. I fully appreciate that Putin is a former KGB man, but you can't just have tunnel vision and disregard leads and suspects, or say that Putin is responsible for all the crimes of the Russian Mafia.

It's like these Civil Service officials in Britain are completely out of touch with reality with regard to house price inflation, or people living on air, or people who venture in business, or creeping privatisation in the NHS, or the Russian mafia, or the Russian perspective and Russian national interest.
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Old 19th March 2018, 03:37 AM   #463
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Bonkers Boris has just said that he has evidence that the Russians have been making stockpiles of novichok for years. Why doesn't he present this so-called evidence to the public and the House of Commons then? To me it looks like a bare faced lie, or just an opinion, like Blair and his so-called evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
I suspect for the usual reason that classified material isn't routinely presented to the public - that it would compromise the intelligence agents who have risked life and limb to obtain that information.

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Israel and Turkey are quite capable of making novichok, and they are keen to discredit Putin because of Syria.
I presume that you have evidence to support the highlighted, but more importantly evidence that they have produced it and furthermore were willing to use it in the UK and in the process ruin the relationship with an ally.

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
I fully appreciate that Putin is a former KGB man, but you can't just have tunnel vision and disregard leads and suspects, or say that Putin is responsible for all the crimes of the Russian Mafia.
You have evidence that the attack in Salisbury was the work of the Russian Mafia ? I'm sure the police would be very interested to receive it.

Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
It's like these Civil Service officials in Britain are completely out of touch with reality with regard to house price inflation, or people living on air, or people who venture in business, or creeping privatisation in the NHS, or the Russian mafia, or the Russian perspective and Russian national interest.
I'm not clear what house prices, inflation or NHS privatisation have to do with a nerve agent attack on a former Russian agent.
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Old 19th March 2018, 06:31 AM   #464
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According to the latest far-right, Russian troll narrative, it was actually Hillary Clinton who poisoned the former Russian agents in Britain (seriously - google it is you need a laugh).
I guess it must be true, because email-server.
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Old 19th March 2018, 07:26 AM   #465
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So we're looking for a false flag actor with the brains and advanced capabilities to reverse engineer a Soviet nerve agent but also too dumb to spot that this would only ever boost Putin's standing at home.



That narrows it down. To Putin. All the rest is bluster.
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Old 19th March 2018, 07:41 AM   #466
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Originally Posted by Jack by the hedge View Post
So we're looking for a false flag actor with the brains and advanced capabilities to reverse engineer a Soviet nerve agent but also too dumb to spot that this would only ever boost Putin's standing at home.



That narrows it down. To Putin. All the rest is bluster.
Nah - It's Clinton trying to blame Putin to make Trump look bad.
Wake up Sheeples!
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Old 19th March 2018, 09:13 AM   #467
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There needs to be a careful investigation in these sort of cases like this nerve agent business. There have been doubts and inconsistencies and lies in other cases and inquiries, like the Lockerbie disaster, or the Hillsborough football disaster in the UK, or this Russian collusion fake news in America, or the Jeffrey MacDonald case in America, or vanishing aircraft.

There were four people being interviewed on the BBC2 Daily Politics show today who were devoid of a sense of humour, and who included a female journalist from Murdoch's Sun newspaper. They were all absolutely clear that Putin did it. How can they be so sure?

I tend to agree with Craig Murray about all this. It all seems odd and unexplained to me. There needs to be an extensive background check, and investigation into the activities of Yulia Skripal, who seems to have had a partner and mother-in-law who are connected to the so-called Russian security services.

Craig Murray has said on TV that Iran starting making Novichok in 2016, which I find alarming in any future war:

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...raqi-wmd-scam/

Quote:
It is a scientific impossibility for Porton Down to have been able to test for Russian novichoks if they have never possessed a Russian sample to compare them to. They can analyse a sample as conforming to a Mirzayanov formula, but as he published those to the world twenty years ago, that is no proof of Russian origin. If Porton Down can synthesise it, so can many others, not just the Russians.

And finally – Mirzayanov is an Uzbek name and the novichok programme, assuming it existed, was in the Soviet Union but far away from modern Russia, at Nukus in modern Uzbekistan. I have visited the Nukus chemical weapons site myself. It was dismantled and made safe and all the stocks destroyed and the equipment removed by the American government, as I recall finishing while I was Ambassador there. There has in fact never been any evidence that any “novichok” ever existed in Russia itself.

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Old 19th March 2018, 09:19 AM   #468
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Originally Posted by Childlike Empress View Post
John Pilger, one of the few still-active investigative journalists the anglosphere can actually be proud of, yet has long been on "not invited" status on UK corporate media, cuts it down in six minutes on RT:

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Again what evidence would you require to believe that it was initiated by the russian state and/or someone in the russian state?
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Old 19th March 2018, 09:25 AM   #469
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There is more waffle about this nerve agent business at:

http://www.marieclaire.co.uk/reports...-attack-584259

Quote:
Honour among thieves

Meanwhile, writing for The Spectator, Misha Glenny, the former adviser to the Russian government and author of McMafia, suggested the Skripal case was unlikely to have been a hit by the Kremlin. “We think of spy swaps as being thoroughly and always unscrupulous, but there actually are rules of the road. There is a protocol between the two intelligence agencies, a sort of honour among thieves. That’s why it’s very odd to see somebody like Skripal, being targeted like this.


McMafia author Misha Glenny


And until we have some forensic evidence – and proper circumstantial evidence – it’s premature to accuse the Russian government of having been involved.” Rather, he suggested a third possibility, not dissimilar to the themes explored in his book, which was recently adapted for a hit BBC show.
“It does seem that Skripal was involved in something: likely to be something to do with his stock-in-trade – which is the exchange, the buying and selling of information. And when you do that, you sometimes work with unscrupulous economic actors, who may be on the dark side,” Glenny concluded.

Last edited by Henri McPhee; 19th March 2018 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 19th March 2018, 09:26 AM   #470
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Craig Murray has said on TV that Iran starting making Novichok in 2016, which I find alarming in any future war:

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...raqi-wmd-scam/

Craig Murray is attempting to imply that "many others" could have made the novichok because the formula has been published, but that the Russians couldn't have made any, because the one and only facility in the entire former Soviet Union that could ever have made it or ever will be able to make it was closed down. Bozhe moi!
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Old 19th March 2018, 09:27 AM   #471
Childlike Empress
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
Again what evidence would you require to believe that it was initiated by the russian state and/or someone in the russian state?

I answered your question already several pages ago.
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Old 19th March 2018, 09:35 AM   #472
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
Craig Murray has said on TV that Iran starting making Novichok in 2016, which I find alarming in any future war:

This has been found in recent days, it was openly published scientific research and the results have been shared with the OPCW. Nothing sinister about it.
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Old 19th March 2018, 09:56 AM   #473
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
Nah - It's Clinton trying to blame Putin to make Trump look bad.
Wake up Sheeples!
As I mentioned earlier, then it morphs into Ultra-Left terroritory*.


*see what I did there?
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Old 19th March 2018, 11:10 AM   #474
Aber
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There is more waffle about this nerve agent business at:

http://www.marieclaire.co.uk/reports...-attack-584259
You are quoting:
A woman's fashion magazine
quoting:
The Spectator
quoting:
a BBC interview
recorded on 7th March before the detailed accusations against Russia were made.
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Old 19th March 2018, 12:36 PM   #475
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There needs to be a careful investigation in these sort of cases like this nerve agent business. There have been doubts and inconsistencies and lies in other cases and inquiries, like the Lockerbie disaster, or the Hillsborough football disaster in the UK, or this Russian collusion fake news in America, or the Jeffrey MacDonald case in America, or vanishing aircraft.

There were four people being interviewed on the BBC2 Daily Politics show today who were devoid of a sense of humour, and who included a female journalist from Murdoch's Sun newspaper. They were all absolutely clear that Putin did it. How can they be so sure?

I tend to agree with Craig Murray about all this. It all seems odd and unexplained to me. There needs to be an extensive background check, and investigation into the activities of Yulia Skripal, who seems to have had a partner and mother-in-law who are connected to the so-called Russian security services.

Craig Murray has said on TV that Iran starting making Novichok in 2016, which I find alarming in any future war:

https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archi...raqi-wmd-scam/
Thank you. I am now convinced that Russia, and Putin in particular, was behind the attacks.
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Old 19th March 2018, 02:39 PM   #476
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
... It all seems odd and unexplained to me.
Without wishing to appear unkind, this appears to be your stock reaction to everything, always.

It's not as if there isn't a simple explanation in this case, there just isn't a plausible contrarian explanation.
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Old 19th March 2018, 02:44 PM   #477
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Sometimes it really is a duck.
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Old 19th March 2018, 03:01 PM   #478
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I have searched and there is no indication that the UK has been behind a successful or attempted assassination in Russia. Maybe we should.
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Old 19th March 2018, 08:50 PM   #479
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Originally Posted by Nessie View Post
I have searched and there is no indication that the UK has been behind a successful or attempted assassination in Russia. Maybe we should.
For all we know they may have reported such things already in Russia. Russian TV regularly aired blatantly fake news during the height of the Ukraine crisis, such as a 4 year old child being "crucified" by Ukrainian separatists. LOL
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Old 19th March 2018, 09:23 PM   #480
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Latest update by b: "No Patients Have Experienced Symptoms Of Nerve Agent Poisoning In Salisbury"

Some of it has been touched upon already but as you can envision we had to properly celebrate VV's "reelection" in our St. Petersburg party bunker, so the dissemination is not perfect yet. Core additional info maybe that we were always right in ignoring the alleged other victims outside the core three, as those are just victims of the unprecedented fear-mongering by the British deep state.
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