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Old 2nd February 2018, 11:15 AM   #41
CORed
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So at this point, his story is, "Yes, I dismembered the body, but her death was an accident", and his earlier story about her having been hit on the head by the hatch is shown to be a lie. At this point, he has no credibility whatsoever. Hang him (or imprison him or whatever it is that they do with murderers in Sweden).
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Old 2nd February 2018, 11:22 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
So at this point, his story is, "Yes, I dismembered the body, but her death was an accident", and his earlier story about her having been hit on the head by the hatch is shown to be a lie. At this point, he has no credibility whatsoever. Hang him (or imprison him or whatever it is that they do with murderers in Sweden).
Before he is found guilty of anything?
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Old 2nd February 2018, 11:31 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
So at this point, his story is, "Yes, I dismembered the body, but her death was an accident", and his earlier story about her having been hit on the head by the hatch is shown to be a lie. At this point, he has no credibility whatsoever. Hang him (or imprison him or whatever it is that they do with murderers in Sweden).
I think they ground them for a couple years or so.
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Old 2nd February 2018, 11:40 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
So at this point, his story is, "Yes, I dismembered the body, but her death was an accident", and his earlier story about her having been hit on the head by the hatch is shown to be a lie. At this point, he has no credibility whatsoever. Hang him (or imprison him or whatever it is that they do with murderers in Sweden).
Denmark.
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Old 3rd February 2018, 04:04 AM   #45
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The victim Kim Wall was a Swedish journalist. The murderer Peter Madsen (yes, I know that he hasn't been convicted yet, but it is a clear-cut case, pun not intended) is Danish, and the crime took place in Øresund, the strait between Denmark and Sweden, probably south of Copenhagen (København) and Malmö. There are several photos of the two of them standing on the sail of the submarine after he picked her up in the Copenhagen harbour.
Kim Wall's dismembered torso drifted ashore on the island of Amager where it was found by a man walking his dog. In the following months, her arms and legs were found by divers - in Køge Bugt, I think.
Her fiancé recently told newspapers that he can't stop blaming himself for letting her go with Peter Madsen on her own in spite of being invited to come along for the ride.
The indictment (Business Insider, Jan. 24, 2018)
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Last edited by dann; 3rd February 2018 at 04:07 AM.
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Old 3rd February 2018, 04:16 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I think they ground them for a couple years or so.

The prosecutor expects a life sentence for the premeditated crime of murder etc. Peter Madsen's attorney finds that it is too severe and expects 14 to 16 years.
Advokat: Derfor er livstid til Peter Madsen over målet (TV2 News, Jan. 16, 2018)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 3rd February 2018, 01:23 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
So at this point, his story is, "Yes, I dismembered the body, but her death was an accident", and his earlier story about her having been hit on the head by the hatch is shown to be a lie. At this point, he has no credibility whatsoever.
Maybe he'll take a leaf from someone else's book and blame an invisible friend called "Dave" for the murder.
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Old 4th February 2018, 05:57 AM   #48
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Peter Madsen has told a number of lies from the very beginning. At first, he claimed that he had sailed her back to the harbour and let her off the submarine near the place where he had picked her up. Apparently he didn't know that security cameras were covering the area. When the torso drifted ashore, he claimed that he had buried her at sea, but hadn't dismembered her, and that her death was due to an accident (the hatch). Then arms, legs and head were recovered, wrapped in plastic and weighed down by steel rods, I think, and showing no signs of trauma from the hatch, so he now claims that she was killed by accidental carbon-monoxide poisoning, but then there are the stab wound to the genital area ...
And, of course, in the meantime the videos of beheadings of women have been discovered on his computer, but since other people had access to it, he claims that they must have been put there by somebody else. And then there are his visits to the fetish clubs ...

Suspecting him of being a serial killer, the police in Denmark, Sweden and Norway have been comparing his fingerprints and DNA with those of related unsolved crimes, but he doesn't seem to have been involved with those. Considering that he was well aware of a large number of witnesses seeing and even photographing him with her on the submarine in the Copenhagen harbour, it seems likely that he wasn't an 'experienced' serial killer.
I don't know if he assumed that his celebrity status would let him get away with it ...


A Danish writer of fiction made a stupid remark about Kim Wall in a recent interview. In spite of a very good beginning, it goes like this:

Quote:
»Det er ALDRIG kvindens ansvar, om en mand beslutter sig for at forgribe sig på hende. Men når det er sagt, så … Altså når jeg ser billederne af offeret, måden, hun har ladet sig fotografere på, og det blik, hun sender kameraet … jeg er nødt til at være ærlig, for det er vores arbejde at være ærlige, og jeg kan ikke lade være med at tænke, at her er en pige, der søger fare. Her er en pige, der søger … usædvanlige situationer, en pige, der godt kan lide at sætte sig selv på spil, og en pige, som har meget frihed og frimodighed i sig. For det er jo altså … fuldstændig vanvittigt som kvinde at gå om bord i en ubåd med en mand, man ikke kender.«
Danskere dybt forbavsede over kendt forfatters udtalelse om Kim Wall: ’Det er meget forkert af mig’ (BT, Jan. 25, 2018)

My translation:
”The woman is NEVER responsible if a man decides to victimize her. But having said that, …. That is, when I see the photos of the victim, the way she has let herself be photographed and the look she sends to the camera … I have to be honest, because that is our profession, to be honest, and I can’t help thinking that this is a girl who is seeking danger. Here is a girl who seeks out unusual situations, a girl who likes to risk herself, and a girl who has so much freedom and boldness inside her. Because it is … totally crazy for a woman to board a submarine with a man she doesn’t know.”

To which a Danish comedian responded:

https://twitter.com/SanneSonder/stat...55662196133889
Quote:
Når jeg ser Jens Christian Grøndahl, måden han har ladet sig citere i Femina, og det blik han sender kameraet... jeg kan ikke lade være at tænke, at her er en mand, der søger at blive lagt for had.
(Sanne Søndergaard, Twitter, Jan. 25, 2018)

My translation:
”When I see Jens Christian Grøndahl, the way he has let himself be quoted in Femina, and the look he sends to the camera … I can’t help thinking that here’s a man who wants people to hate him.”

Grøndahl victim blames Kim Wall (heartbeats.dk, Jan. 25, 2018)

In the meantime, he has apologized unconditionally for his remark, and actually seems to understand that he was wrong.
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Old 4th February 2018, 06:22 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
and the crime took place in Øresund, the strait between Denmark and Sweden, probably south of Copenhagen (København) and Malmö.
Has he already tried to argue that Denmark has no jurisdiction over the case, asserting it took place in Swedish waters?

I know that would be far-fetched, as the sites where the sub was sighted indicate it sailed all the time close to the Danish coast, but the defence might try anything to evade / postpone justice.
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Old 4th February 2018, 06:47 AM   #50
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I don't think he has, and I don't think that his lawyer would recommend it.
I also don't think that he would want to stand trial in the country of his victim ...

I expect the guy to be put away for the rest of his life or at least until he is unable to harm anyone: The psychiatric assessment: Prosecutor at press meeting: Madsen constitutes a considerable and immediate danger to other people
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 5th February 2018, 11:51 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The prosecutor expects a life sentence for the premeditated crime of murder etc. Peter Madsen's attorney finds that it is too severe and expects 14 to 16 years.
Advokat: Derfor er livstid til Peter Madsen over målet (TV2 News, Jan. 16, 2018)
Sorry, I dont speak Danish, has the prosecutor said there is evidence the murder was premeditated? It seems such a gobsmackingly stupid crime for a smart person to have planned. Having multiple people aware that you are meeting the victim alone and taking her out to sea means at the very least you'll have some hard questions to answer when she doesn't return.

Telling easily disproved lies about the victim returning to shore, texting the sub crew that the next days outing was cancelled and scuttling the sub isn't the cleverest way to divert suspicion either. Even after all that altering your story every time new evidence is (pedictably) found that completely contradicts what you've already said doesn't scream planning to me.

This is a guy who is supposedly hyper focussed when working, someone able to turn ludicrous pipe dreams of private rockets and submarines into physical reality. All his reported post offence behaviour seems consistent with panic and desperation.

If the murder was planned, it was planned really badly. If it wasn't planned then what could have caused it? Could Madsen just have become so crazy that he couldn't contain himelf with a woman alone with him on the sub?
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Old 6th February 2018, 12:18 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Has he already tried to argue that Denmark has no jurisdiction over the case, asserting it took place in Swedish waters?

I know that would be far-fetched, as the sites where the sub was sighted indicate it sailed all the time close to the Danish coast, but the defence might try anything to evade / postpone justice.
To my knowledge he hasn't. There is a Danish island, Saltholm, in the strait, and everything took place in the waters between Amager and Saltholm, so there is not the slightest doubt that he was in Danish territorial waters.

ETA, also, he would gain nothing by coming before a Swedish court instead.

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Old 6th February 2018, 12:31 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
Sorry, I dont speak Danish, has the prosecutor said there is evidence the murder was premeditated? It seems such a gobsmackingly stupid crime for a smart person to have planned. Having multiple people aware that you are meeting the victim alone and taking her out to sea means at the very least you'll have some hard questions to answer when she doesn't return.

Telling easily disproved lies about the victim returning to shore, texting the sub crew that the next days outing was cancelled and scuttling the sub isn't the cleverest way to divert suspicion either. Even after all that altering your story every time new evidence is (pedictably) found that completely contradicts what you've already said doesn't scream planning to me.

This is a guy who is supposedly hyper focussed when working, someone able to turn ludicrous pipe dreams of private rockets and submarines into physical reality. All his reported post offence behaviour seems consistent with panic and desperation.

If the murder was planned, it was planned really badly. If it wasn't planned then what could have caused it? Could Madsen just have become so crazy that he couldn't contain himelf with a woman alone with him on the sub?
The reason for the claim of premeditation are several:

- It seems he took various utensils on board the sub beforehand, including a saw. Of course, that could have been for mundane purposes.

- He invited several other women for a trip, but they did not want to come. Finally he, at rather short notice, invited Kim Wall. Kim Wall had earlier approached him for an interview, but he had refused or stalled. Now he called her and said he would give the interview, provided it was on board the Nautilus.

- And, of course, the snuff videos found in his posession.

.... Those are the things that have expired publicly, so far. The prosecution may have other stuff up their sleeve.

As for the stupidity: It seems that Peter Madsen has always been a man of grandiose fantasies, but he appears to have become increasingly detached from reality in the later years. Somebody from his former group has described him as "a man without a stop button".

We shall se how the case goes.

Hans
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Old 6th February 2018, 01:09 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
Sorry, I dont speak Danish, has the prosecutor said there is evidence the murder was premeditated? It seems such a gobsmackingly stupid crime for a smart person to have planned. Having multiple people aware that you are meeting the victim alone and taking her out to sea means at the very least you'll have some hard questions to answer when she doesn't return.

Telling easily disproved lies about the victim returning to shore, texting the sub crew that the next days outing was cancelled and scuttling the sub isn't the cleverest way to divert suspicion either. Even after all that altering your story every time new evidence is (pedictably) found that completely contradicts what you've already said doesn't scream planning to me.

This is a guy who is supposedly hyper focussed when working, someone able to turn ludicrous pipe dreams of private rockets and submarines into physical reality. All his reported post offence behaviour seems consistent with panic and desperation.

If the murder was planned, it was planned really badly. If it wasn't planned then what could have caused it? Could Madsen just have become so crazy that he couldn't contain himelf with a woman alone with him on the sub?
I can imagine both.
Premeditated from some sick fantasy and with some explanation, which sounded plausible at the time when the fantasy came up in his mind.

Panic after the deed has been done, the adrenaline rush has disappeared and the reality about what he just had done sank in.
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Old 6th February 2018, 07:24 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by erwinl View Post
I can imagine both.
Premeditated from some sick fantasy and with some explanation, which sounded plausible at the time when the fantasy came up in his mind.
That is my totally unqualified guess as well. Toying with the idea, getting prepared, now getting a woman alone on the boat ... and then .. that missing stop button.

Quote:
Panic after the deed has been done, the adrenaline rush has disappeared and the reality about what he just had done sank in.
Right, plus, most criminals only plan to some point. Well, maybe some make full plans, but those are probably never found out.

If you read accounts of real crimes, you will often see a well planned and well executed crime (be it murder, robbery, or something else), and then at some point ... Ooops! What now?

I have an example: Many years ago we had a master eskaper in Denmark. Serving a prison term for some rather mundane crime (I don't remember which), he planned the perfect escape, tunneling from his cell, through several walls and and underground, till he was free. But there, his plans stopped. He walked a few miles from the prison, then hid in the loft of a farm and stayed there for several days, sneaking down at night to steal some food from the kitchen. Eventually he was discovered and put back behind bars.

Unfortunately, I could only find a Danish source: http://udbryderkongen.dk/om-carl-august-lorentzen/

Hans
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Old 6th February 2018, 07:46 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
- It seems he took various utensils on board the sub beforehand, including a saw.
I don't know how you cut your meat, but I wouldn't consider a saw to be a utensil.
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Old 6th February 2018, 08:15 AM   #57
dann
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
- He invited several other women for a trip, but they did not want to come. Finally he, at rather short notice, invited Kim Wall. Kim Wall had earlier approached him for an interview, but he had refused or stalled. Now he called her and said he would give the interview, provided it was on board the Nautilus.

Quote:
... flere kvinder, som ikke ønsker at stå frem, men som fik tilbudt en tur i opfinderens ubåd i dagene op til den skæbnesvangre 10. august sidste år.
Kim Walls kæreste sagde nej til at sejle ud med Kim og Peter Madsen
Da ingen af de andre indbudte damer bed på, genoptog Madsen en flere måneder gammel korrespondance med Kim Wall og tilbød hende det interview, hun havde forespurgt allerede i foråret.
Peter Madsens betingelser var klare:
Interviewet skulle foregå samme aften om bord på ubåden.
Det fortæller Kim Walls kæreste, som ønsker at være anonym, i et interview til TV2. Raket-Madsens uhyggelige plan: På kvindejagt

My translation:
"... several women who want to stay anonymous were offered a ride in the inventor's submarine in the days before the fatal August 10 last year.
Kim Wall's fiancé declined to go sailing with Kim and Peter Madsen.
When none of the other women he had invited accepted his invitation, he resumed a several-months-old correspondence with Kim Wall and offered her the interview that she had requested in the spring of 2017.
Peter Madsen's conditions were clear: The interview had to take place that same night in the submarine.
This is what Kim Wall's fiancé, who wants to remain anonymous, says in an interview with TV2."
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 6th February 2018, 10:28 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
I don't know how you cut your meat, but I wouldn't consider a saw to be a utensil.
Tool, if you will. It would seem that Peter Madsen did indeed use a saw.

Hans
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Old 6th February 2018, 02:30 PM   #59
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https://www.facebook.com/tv2news/pos...56559360244714
https://www.bt.dk/krimi/nyt-forklari...e-sav-i-retten
https://www.bt.dk/krimi/mysteriet-om...l-det-nye-fund
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 6th February 2018, 02:41 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
My translation:
"... several women who want to stay anonymous were offered a ride in the inventor's submarine in the days before the fatal August 10 last year.
Kim Wall's fiancé declined to go sailing with Kim and Peter Madsen.
When none of the other women he had invited accepted his invitation, he resumed a several-months-old correspondence with Kim Wall and offered her the interview that she had requested in the spring of 2017.
Peter Madsen's conditions were clear: The interview had to take place that same night in the submarine.
This is what Kim Wall's fiancé, who wants to remain anonymous, says in an interview with TV2."
Wow, that's super creepy.

Thanks for translating that, it certainly puts the crime in a new light for me. It makes it seem like Madsen definitely planned to kill her. What makes it somehow worse for me is that this intelligent, organized man did this in such a way that guaranteed he would be at least the prime suspect in her disappearence. It's like his need to kill was so strong it overwrote his ability to assess consequences. That meant that Kim Wall was unable to accurately assess the danger of the situation. A public figure that was known by others to be isolated with her would have to be crazy to attack her.

Unfortunately it sounds like his bloodlust was overwhelming him. It makes me wonder if Kim's fiance would have survived if he had gone onto the sub as well.
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Old 6th February 2018, 03:44 PM   #61
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His submarine enthusiasm was genuine and he was talented engineer. I certainly don't think he was building the sub to commit crimes with it. He was just 'the guy with sub', he was taking people there all the time. Guys from subsim.com forum went there during one of the annual meetings. I almost did too, had to cancel at the last moment.
People who met him describe him normal enthusiast, everybody liked him. Possibly bit asocial, spending more time with the sub than with people, but still, perfectly normal.
Of course nobody suspected a thing. You just can't tell. Even the girl, who was a reporter, supposedly quite socially skilled, didn't sense a danger .. she had to profile him as harmless. Perfectly fine to be alone with.
You just can't tell.
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Old 7th February 2018, 03:07 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
Unfortunately it sounds like his bloodlust was overwhelming him. It makes me wonder if Kim's fiance would have survived if he had gone onto the sub as well.

He doesn't appear to be a big guy, so it's doubtful if he would have been able to overpower both Kim Wall and her fiancé. He might have abstained from trying anything with a man onboard.
You are probably right about his overwhelming bloodlust. He probably behaved compulsively, driven by his perversion.

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid View Post
People who met him describe him normal enthusiast, everybody liked him. Possibly bit asocial, spending more time with the sub than with people, but still, perfectly normal.

Now, I don't know if you are talking about people in general or only about "guys from subsim.com forum". He appears to have been more quarrelsome than most people: »Han skændes med gud og hver mand«. But, of course, most quarrelsome people don't kill!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 7th February 2018, 05:29 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Now, I don't know if you are talking about people in general or only about "guys from subsim.com forum". He appears to have been more quarrelsome than most people: »Han skændes med gud og hver mand«. But, of course, most quarrelsome people don't kill!
Yeah, I meant people from subsim.com. And if I'm good example, they are not 100% normal either, so the judgement might be of little value.
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Old 7th February 2018, 06:50 AM   #64
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Well, I can't imagine that he would be obnoxious on an occasion like that.
He used to have a blog, Raketmadsens rumlaboratorium (Rocket Madsen's Space Laboratory), at Ingeniøren (the engineer) where he published an article about the dispute between the two rocket-launching organizations in Denmark just one day before he killed Kim Wall: Først til mølle (Aug. 9, 2017).
In the review of the documentary about the altercations between the two founders of Copenhagen Suborbitals, Amateurs in Space (the facebook page of the documentary) from 2016, it says:

Quote:
Rygraden i fortællingen er nye interviews med henholdsvis Madsen og Bengtson, der også understreger, hvor forskellige de er: Bengtson fortæller nøgternt og lidt trist om det vanskelige forløb, mens Madsen kundgør sin store passion for og viden om rumraketter og løftemotorer – og han insisterer på at gøre det på engelsk, hvilket virker lidt spøjst og måske fortæller lidt om det vanvid, der er et grundelement i et ambitiøst projekt som dette.

My translation:
"The backbone of the narrative consists of new interviews with Madsen and Bengtson that also highlight how different the two men are: Bengtson tells us his story in a sober but also a little despondent way about the difficult course of events, whereas Madsen announces his passion for and knowledge of space rockets and lauchers - and he insists on doing so in English, which seems a little odd and may tell us a little about the madness that is a basic element in an ambitious project like this."
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 10th February 2018, 08:23 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
So at this point, his story is, "Yes, I dismembered the body, but her death was an accident...
Oh, well that settles it then. The first impulse when one witnesses an accidental death is of course to dismember the corpse (as one does). Not guilty!

(You've got to know you're in trouble when your alibi features the word "dismember.")
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Old 10th February 2018, 08:51 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Oh, well that settles it then. The first impulse when one witnesses an accidental death is of course to dismember the corpse (as one does). Not guilty!

(You've got to know you're in trouble when your alibi features the word "dismember.")
Well, to be fair, it seems to be a form of damage control: Confess what you can't deny, but no more. Of course, every time you are forced to admit some new point, your credibility is decimated.

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Old 10th February 2018, 10:57 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by Stellafane View Post
Oh, well that settles it then. The first impulse when one witnesses an accidental death is of course to dismember the corpse (as one does). Not guilty!

(You've got to know you're in trouble when your alibi features the word "dismember.")
There is an old joke. The 911 emergency operator receives a call:

Caller: "Oh my god, I've had an accident with my gun and I think I've shot and killed my friend!"

Operator: "Don't panic, don't panic. We will help. First thing, let's make sure he's actually dead."

Caller: "Yes, yes, of course that's important. One minute..... [loud gun shot in background]....Okay, now what?"



"I only cut off her head to be sure she was dead."
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Old 11th February 2018, 09:09 AM   #68
dann
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Originally Posted by MRC_Hans View Post
Well, to be fair, it seems to be a form of damage control: Confess what you can't deny, but no more. Of course, every time you are forced to admit some new point, your credibility is decimated.

And sometimes the precautions a murderer takes to prevent the body from being recovered are evidence against him when it is found anyway:
Peter Madsen i retten: Jeg bandt nylon-strap om Kim Walls lig (B.T., Sep. 5, 2017)
According to another article, the metal pipes that Peter Madsen used to weigh down body parts may have helped the police find them by means of metal detectors.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 11th February 2018, 09:19 AM   #69
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Originally Posted by Giordano View Post
There is an old joke.

It isn't just any old joke. It's the world's funniest joke! - at least according to skeptic Richard Wiseman's research!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 12th February 2018, 12:16 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Captain_Swoop View Post
Before he is found guilty of anything?
Well no. Observe all the appropriate legal formalities, then hang him.
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Old 12th February 2018, 12:27 PM   #71
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The victim Kim Wall was a Swedish journalist. The murderer Peter Madsen (yes, I know that he hasn't been convicted yet, but it is a clear-cut case, pun not intended) is Danish, and the crime took place in Øresund, the strait between Denmark and Sweden, probably south of Copenhagen (København) and Malmö. There are several photos of the two of them standing on the sail of the submarine after he picked her up in the Copenhagen harbour.
Kim Wall's dismembered torso drifted ashore on the island of Amager where it was found by a man walking his dog. In the following months, her arms and legs were found by divers - in Køge Bugt, I think.
Her fiancé recently told newspapers that he can't stop blaming himself for letting her go with Peter Madsen on her own in spite of being invited to come along for the ride.
The indictment (Business Insider, Jan. 24, 2018)
My mistake. I obviously confused the nationality of the victim with the country where the crime was committed.

Sweden, Denmark, who can tell them apart, anyway [/ugly American]
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Old 13th February 2018, 03:31 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by CORed View Post
My mistake. I obviously confused the nationality of the victim with the country where the crime was committed.

Sweden, Denmark, who can tell them apart, anyway [/ugly American]
Well, just don't say that in either country, unless you have space to run.

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Old 13th February 2018, 03:41 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
My translation:
"... several women who want to stay anonymous were offered a ride in the inventor's submarine in the days before the fatal August 10 last year.
Kim Wall's fiancé declined to go sailing with Kim and Peter Madsen.
When none of the other women he had invited accepted his invitation, he resumed a several-months-old correspondence with Kim Wall and offered her the interview that she had requested in the spring of 2017.
Peter Madsen's conditions were clear: The interview had to take place that same night in the submarine.
This is what Kim Wall's fiancé, who wants to remain anonymous, says in an interview with TV2."
Madsen's insistence that Wall come for the interview on the 10th, the night before he was scheduled to sail the Nautilus to Bornholm, is IMO significant. It's likely the conflict with Copenhagen Suborbitals and ongoing money worries created a lot of anxiety. His relationship with CS, which ousted him in 2015, was obstensibly friendly but it's clear from reading posts from both sides that in reality it was quite bitter. CS had fought with Madsen over Nautilus' ownership, eventually transferring it over to him. He sent this message to two board members:

”Du skal nok tænke det sådan at der hviler en forbandelse over Nautilus. Den forbandelse er mig. Der bliver ikke ro om Nautilus så længe jeg findes. Du kan ikke hæve den forbandelse juridisk. Det er lige meget om du for ret eller ej, usikkerheden er der stadigvæk (…) Lad hende være. Tag hende ikke bare fordi du kan. Det er ikke godt for jer. I vil aldrig få en god følelse i den ubåd (…) Ikke at jeg iøvrigt aner hvad i beslutter jer for. Men vær kloge. Smid ikke mere hjerte blod i den båd. For din egen skyld. Du fortjener bedre.”

(Google Translate) "You may think that a curse rests on Nautilus. That curse is me. There will not be peace of Nautilus for as long as I exist. You can not lift that curse legally. It's no matter if you are right or not, the uncertainty is still there (...) Let her be. Take her not just because you can. It's not good for you. You will never have a good feeling in the submarine (...) Not that I also know what you decide for. But be smart. Do not throw more heart blood into that boat. For your own sake. You deserve better."

On August 5 he posted about sailing to Bornholm on the 11th, then on August 9 he posted about the scheduling conflict with Copenhagen Suborbitals which had also obtained a license to perform tests in the same area at the same time.

https://ing.dk/blogs/raket-madsens-rumlaboratorium

He was probably also very worried that CS would ultimately outshine him. Madsen's dream was to be the first amateur to launch a manned rocket into suborbital space. He ended up competing with his old teammates and it must have crossed his mind that they might reach the goal first.

Combine that anxiety with his sadism fetish bolstered by the gory videos and the result may have created a "perfect storm" culminating in the frenzied attack on Kim Wall. Could it have driven him into planning to commit suicide after fulfilling another dream of his - committing a gruesome attack on a woman?

I'm just speculating. He reported that he was suicidal after dismembering Wall but I believe it's possible that suicide was a part of his original plan. IMO people like Madsen rarely succeed in part two of a murder-suicide act but he may have seen it as a way to justify or maybe motivate his crime to himself. Something like "I'm gonna act out my sadistic fantasy and then go out by my own choice, in my own way."
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Old 16th February 2018, 01:36 PM   #74
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The Final, Terrible Voyage of the Nautilus (Wired, Feb. 15, 2018)

Inventor Accused of Killing Journalist Reportedly Texted About Murdering Someone on His Submarine (The Cut, Feb. 15, 2018 – based on the Wired article!)

Peter Madsen havde detaljeret plan om ubådsdrab (msn.com, Feb. 16, 2018 – also based on the Wired article)
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 16th February 2018, 03:38 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The Final, Terrible Voyage of the Nautilus (Wired, Feb. 15, 2018)

Inventor Accused of Killing Journalist Reportedly Texted About Murdering Someone on His Submarine (The Cut, Feb. 15, 2018 – based on the Wired article!)

Peter Madsen havde detaljeret plan om ubådsdrab (msn.com, Feb. 16, 2018 – also based on the Wired article)
That Wired article, written by a friend of Kim's is both chilling and unbearably sad. Among the many things I did not know was that Kim and her partner were hosting a goodbye barbecue on the night she disappeared. Kim's partner lived in Copenhagen - in the same harbour district as the Nautilus workshop. They were moving to China and leaving town the next day. Kim had been trying to get an interview with Madsen and when she got a text from him inviting her on the sub she felt she couldn't pass it up. She walked over to the sub's dock and subsequently sent some photos from aboard the sub to her partner. During the barbecue one of the guests drew the parners attention to the harbour. In the distance, with the setting sun in the background was the Nautilus. Kim was on the deck waving. It was the last time she was seen alive.

That image should be such a corny Hollywood moment but somehow for me it brings home the reality of the tragedy. That and the banalities of Madsen's letters from prison make me depressed and angry at how pointless and selfish this murder really was.
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Old 18th February 2018, 01:54 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Carnivore View Post
That Wired article, written by a friend of Kim's is both chilling and unbearably sad.

The Wired article is excellent and tells us at least one thing that probably only his lawyer and the prosecutors knew about. All in all, it really shouldn't come as a surprise to people who knew him that he is a psychopath.
There's his inability to finish any education he started:

Quote:
Madsen ricocheted around, starting several degrees and apprenticeships—in welding, refrigeration, and engineering—before dropping out of each.

There are his sexual preferences:

Quote:
Madsen became a regular at sexual fetish parties.

There are his mood swings - in particular when things didn't go his way:

Quote:
Madsen could swing between rage and euphoria. One volunteer at Copenhagen Suborbitals told me that if something did not please Madsen, “he would behave like a child who just lost his toy or dropped his ice cream or something.” When his mood turned, “most people would know what was going to happen, so they would stay away from him before stuff started flying.” Volunteers said Madsen threw hammers, screwdrivers, and other tools. (...) Madsen would go from being supportive to “pensive, jubilant, exasperating, and sarcastic.”

And there's his Nazi fetish: A friend "described a recurring joke:"

Quote:
Madsen would pretend to be a violent Nazi and would mime hitting Falkenberg, saying “Should I punch you in the kidneys?” or Madsen might joke: “What if I inject battery acid into your veins?”
There was also a lot of joking around about Nazis in the workshop. Crewmembers called each other by Nazi-inspired nicknames. (...) The reverence he held for the Third Reich was hard to detect as it was framed as irreverence, but it was there.

I can see why the crew members were probably hesitant about sharing this part of their social interaction with the public.
But all these things have been mentioned before in other articles (at least in Danish!), but this one is new, which is probably the reason why so many Danish newspapers refer to the Wired article:

A friend of his "had been having trouble finishing a video,..."

Quote:
... and she’d asked Madsen to motivate her with a threat. The conversation began as a casual sexual exchange but quickly escalated. She read the texts to me, translating into English as she went.
“He says he has a murder plan ready in the submarine, and I tell him I am not afraid, you have to be more threatening. He talks about the tools he wants to use, and I say, ‘Oh it’s not threatening.’ ” The scenario darkened to inviting a friend to the submarine, where they would suddenly change the mood and begin cutting her up.

It sounds as if he intended for this woman to become his partner in crime, not unlike some of the infamous serial-killer couples.

In the letters written in jail that the author of the article, May Jeong, received from him, it sounds as if he is asking her to kill him - maybe because he was incapable of doing so himself as Scordatura speculated in his post, Feb. 13:

Quote:
He asked me, “What are you? An explainer trying to understand? A terminator sent to terminate me? ... Without exception—whatever you are—you are welcome, I am all yours.”

His terminator fantasy seems to reflect his megalomania now that he's nothing but a despicable murderer.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 20th February 2018, 10:33 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by DragonLady View Post
'Til this thread, I thought "snuff videos" were an urban legend.
The ugly truth is that the consumers for that product tend to make their own

Look up Leonard Lake and Charles Ng.
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Old 21st February 2018, 08:36 AM   #78
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I don't think so, i.e. most "consumers for that product" probably don't "tend to make their own." As in the case of rapists, where most consumers of rape porn don't move on to actually raping people - if they have empathy, they tend not to rape - the same thing will probably hold true for consumers of snuff porn: If they have empathy, they not only know but also feel that it's a sick and disgusting fantasy, however much it turns them on sexually.
I mentioned the study of men who rape in another thread:

Originally Posted by dann View Post
The NYT article points out the general lack of empathy in rapists - and it seems to be even more lacking in repeat offenders. Empathy is what seems to protect even rape-porn consumers from becoming rapists.
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 21st February 2018, 09:31 AM   #79
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Originally Posted by BStrong View Post
The ugly truth is that the consumers for that product tend to make their own

Look up Leonard Lake and Charles Ng.
I think this is one of those cases of small subsets within much larger sets, so the connection applies much more one way and not the other. Whereas the individuals who commit rape and murder are very likely to also be strong fans of rape and snuff porn, that does not mean that many (most?) fans of rape and snuff porn will actually rape or murder people.

I don't know the actual numbers in this case but almost everyone fantasizes about something, sexual or non-sexual, that they would never do in real life. And not only because of fear of repercussions: one can fantasize about things that one would find personally disgusting to actually do for real.
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Old 24th February 2018, 01:19 AM   #80
dann
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Article in Danish:
Former porn star says that Peter Madsen wanted her to get onboard the submarine (msn.com, Feb. 24, 2018)
She knew him for nine years, and he tried to persuade her to join him on the submarine several times, the last time two weeks before he killed Kim Wall.
Her description of his behavior is in line with what other people have said, for instance in the Wired article: sometimes apparently helpful and caring, mood swings, in particular when he didn't get his way. "He couldn't handle rejections", she says.
I have a hard time understanding why people weren't so creeped out by this guy that they refused to have anything to do with him.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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