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Old 12th March 2018, 04:16 AM   #3081
ginjawarrior
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The claims seem pretty clear, as soon as she presented herself as sexually unavailable all that talk of mentoring went away. it is kind of like when someone you think is your friend stops seeing you when they realize you will not sleep with them, they were never your friend in the first place.
or like the person you thought was a friend who freaked out when you asked what music they liked and you figured it might just be better to keep your distance
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Old 12th March 2018, 04:21 AM   #3082
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Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
or like the person you thought was a friend who freaked out when you asked what music they liked and you figured it might just be better to keep your distance
But this wasn't a friend this was a possible mentor, when the whole purpose is business related why not talk about that for a while instead of immediately shifting to talk about more personal issues? Why are you so quick to question her reading of social cues? Here I thought all that subtle things made all the difference, no suddenly it is all about the words used to walk the line to make it questionable that the intended sexual offer for career advancement was made?
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Old 12th March 2018, 04:31 AM   #3083
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But this wasn't a friend this was a possible mentor, when the whole purpose is business related why not talk about that for a while instead of immediately shifting to talk about more personal issues? Why are you so quick to question her reading of social cues? Here I thought all that subtle things made all the difference, no suddenly it is all about the words used to walk the line to make it questionable that the intended sexual offer for career advancement was made?
Yes, who brought personal issues unrelated to work into the discussion and drew an equivalence between a mentoring relationship at work and a friendship?
Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
The claims seem pretty clear, as soon as she presented herself as sexually unavailable all that talk of mentoring went away. it is kind of like when someone you think is your friend stops seeing you when they realize you will not sleep with them, they were never your friend in the first place.
Oh, right. But as soon as ginjawarrior uses a similar simile, suddenly it's taken literally and doesn't count.

For the record: anyone who tries to 'seduce' an underling by offering to help with their career is a scumbag.
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Old 12th March 2018, 04:37 AM   #3084
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
For the record: anyone who tries to 'seduce' an underling by offering to help with their career is a scumbag.
Its ok he wasn't her boss, so it wasn't a true underling. That makes trying to seduce her with talks of mentoring OK apparently.
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Old 12th March 2018, 05:21 AM   #3085
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
It was the same thing it always was without a codified definition. Full stop. Not a hard *********** concept to understand. Why must I repeat it?

Please, if you are not grasping things like this, you are truly well behind the curb in regards to the basics of discussion. Everyone else cannot be expected to explain basic concepts like this to you.

Why not try a different tactic. Instead of asking for such basic information, constantly, research the topic that is confusing you, and come back when you understand what was giving you trouble, and give an informed opinion on it. It's what I do and it works quite well.
Because there are other people on this thread that say there is no such thing as sexual assault that isn't criminal.
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Old 12th March 2018, 07:01 AM   #3086
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post

For the record: anyone who tries to 'seduce' an underling by offering to help with their career is a scumbag.
Agreed, but we really don't know that's what happened here. Maybe, maybe not.
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Old 12th March 2018, 07:49 AM   #3087
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Agreed, but we really don't know that's what happened here. Maybe, maybe not.
It really seems that any potential miscommunication is always been read to the benefit of the purported abuser. If he was sending mixed signals that is his fault and he deserves what happens like a woman sending out mixed signals shouldn't be all shocked when someone kisses her. This of course gives them an easy out when called on their behavior.
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Old 12th March 2018, 08:06 AM   #3088
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It really seems that any potential miscommunication is always been read to the benefit of the purported abuser.
Whatever.

Unless there's evidence to the contrary, it's possible he really just wanted to be friends with her, or something morally on par with that, so I'm not going to force myself to stop being a skeptic in the name of meeting externally imposed standards of being a good advocate for victims.

All we have here is a small snippet of him being mentioned in passing, written by a team of lawyers suing not him, but the company. If you think trashing this guy on the basis of that alone helps anyone, you're wrong, but I can't stop you from believing it. All I can do is remember that people like you are such a tiny minority it's irrelevant.
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Old 12th March 2018, 08:08 AM   #3089
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It really seems that any potential miscommunication is always been read to the benefit of the purported abuser. If he was sending mixed signals that is his fault and he deserves what happens like a woman sending out mixed signals shouldn't be all shocked when someone kisses her. This of course gives them an easy out when called on their behavior.
How's the 'assume the absolute worst about everyone's post and then respond as if they've actually said the horrible things I've imagined' stragegy working out for you?

How about if, instead of with a boatload of snark to show us your moral purity, you actually engage with what people are posting and from time to time, present an argument of your own...
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Old 12th March 2018, 08:14 AM   #3090
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One of the main talking points of the MeToo and the broad social discussion about sexual harassment and assault is that women are too hesitant to come forward with claims of sexual assault or harassment because there is a tendency to not believe them.

But... sex crimes are a special kind of evil in our society. The idea that rape or sexual assault is a specifically "bad" or "wrong" kind of crime is pretty well established. It's hard for me in that context to see us as not being against sex crimes "enough" on a societal level.

I'm not saying either "side" (yet again I hate "sidiefing" (that needs to be a word) this discussion) is wrong it's just something that I've personally always had a hard time really forming a cohesive view of.
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Old 12th March 2018, 08:16 AM   #3091
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
How's the 'assume the absolute worst about everyone's post and then respond as if they've actually said the horrible things I've imagined' stragegy working out for you?
Pretty good going by the "He gets people to respond to him" standard you tsk tsked people over with Bob.

If we're dancing to Bob's strings, you're dancing to his.
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Old 12th March 2018, 08:18 AM   #3092
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You might be right. For some reason I still assumed he/she had a point to make.
But it might be time to give up on that.
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Old 12th March 2018, 09:05 AM   #3093
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
Whatever.

Unless there's evidence to the contrary, it's possible he really just wanted to be friends with her, or something morally on par with that, so I'm not going to force myself to stop being a skeptic in the name of meeting externally imposed standards of being a good advocate for victims.
Then why start all that stuff about mentoring? It is exactly the same technique Sherman Alexie has pretty much copped to using. Offering mentorship is a great way to get an in and into their pants after all.
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Old 12th March 2018, 09:08 AM   #3094
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
One of the main talking points of the MeToo and the broad social discussion about sexual harassment and assault is that women are too hesitant to come forward with claims of sexual assault or harassment because there is a tendency to not believe them.

But... sex crimes are a special kind of evil in our society. The idea that rape or sexual assault is a specifically "bad" or "wrong" kind of crime is pretty well established. It's hard for me in that context to see us as not being against sex crimes "enough" on a societal level.
But when the stories come out we have long given the guys a pass. See how many payout O'Reily made over the years including tapes of his harassing his employees coming out with little to no repercussions for him. How does that square with some idea that these things are serious and people cared about them? Not enough that it impacted his career.
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Old 12th March 2018, 09:09 AM   #3095
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It really seems that any potential miscommunication is always been read to the benefit of the purported abuser.
Yeah, curse that presumption of innocence!
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Old 12th March 2018, 10:05 AM   #3096
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A lot of people do seem to be dancing around "Presumption of Innocence shouldn't be a thing with sex crimes and shouldn't apply to them" without coming out and saying it.

I brought this up earlier in one of those brief moments of actual conversation in-between our trips through the looking glass and the dictionary wars but there's an over riding subtext of "X number of women are claiming to be harassed/assaulted while only Y number of men are being convicted, ergo by definition harassment/assault has to be either under reported or under convicted" and that doesn't sit well with me.

My entire problem with the "Miscarriage of Justice" fandom is they seemingly all claim to just magically be able to know when people are guilty so they can properly second guess the legal system and it's not something I want to deal with here either.
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Old 12th March 2018, 10:12 AM   #3097
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
My entire problem with the "Miscarriage of Justice" fandom is they seemingly all claim to just magically be able to know when people are guilty
My mom's like that. She really believes that by looking at a person's face she can know whether the person is guilty. It never enters her mind that the sample is biased, and that mugshots are rarely presenting someone's best face.
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Old 12th March 2018, 10:33 AM   #3098
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
My mom's like that. She really believes that by looking at a person's face she can know whether the person is guilty. It never enters her mind that the sample is biased, and that mugshots are rarely presenting someone's best face.
But does she think that should factor into legal proceedings, or just how people feel about a person?
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Old 12th March 2018, 10:42 AM   #3099
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
A lot of people do seem to be dancing around "Presumption of Innocence shouldn't be a thing with sex crimes and shouldn't apply to them" without coming out and saying it.

I brought this up earlier in one of those brief moments of actual conversation in-between our trips through the looking glass and the dictionary wars but there's an over riding subtext of "X number of women are claiming to be harassed/assaulted while only Y number of men are being convicted, ergo by definition harassment/assault has to be either under reported or under convicted" and that doesn't sit well with me.

My entire problem with the "Miscarriage of Justice" fandom is they seemingly all claim to just magically be able to know when people are guilty so they can properly second guess the legal system and it's not something I want to deal with here either.
And no one is talking about criminal charges,. This is entirely with in the realm of tort where preponderance of the evidence is the legal standard.

How much in your life do you really run it by beyond a reasonable doubt instead of something closer to preponderance of the evidence?
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Old 12th March 2018, 10:50 AM   #3100
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
A lot of people do seem to be dancing around "Presumption of Innocence shouldn't be a thing with sex crimes and shouldn't apply to them" without coming out and saying it.

I brought this up earlier in one of those brief moments of actual conversation in-between our trips through the looking glass and the dictionary wars but there's an over riding subtext of "X number of women are claiming to be harassed/assaulted while only Y number of men are being convicted, ergo by definition harassment/assault has to be either under reported or under convicted" and that doesn't sit well with me.

My entire problem with the "Miscarriage of Justice" fandom is they seemingly all claim to just magically be able to know when people are guilty so they can properly second guess the legal system and it's not something I want to deal with here either.

Another part being that we're not required to extend courtroom policy/procedure/standards to events outside a courtroom. Which is fine in general - you [generic] may have been found not guilty in court for a slew of burglary charges you had against you, but I get a bad vibe off you and won't ask you to house sit for me while I'm out of town. No problem there.

It becomes a problem when you add in social media. With its far reach and light speed transmission suddenly it's far easier for someone to find their reputation or even livelihood in jeopardy even when getting hauled into court could never happen due to lack of evidence.

Add in the mindset some have of 'women don't lie about rape/sexual assault' and it just gets worse. Plenty of actual victimizers who need uncovering are out there. Unfortunately technology has made it far too easy to pick up false positives as well.

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Old 12th March 2018, 11:09 AM   #3101
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Originally Posted by Joe Random View Post
Another part being that we're not required to extend courtroom policy/procedure/standards to events outside a courtroom. Which is fine in general - you [generic] may have been found not guilt in court for a slew of burglary charges you had against you, but I get a bad vibe off you and won't ask you to house sit for me while I'm out of town. No problem there.

It becomes a problem when you add in social media. With its far reach and light speed transmission suddenly it's far easier for someone to find their reputation or even livelihood in jeopardy even when getting hauled into court could never happen due to lack of evidence.

Add in the mindset some have of 'women don't lie about rape/sexual assault' and it just gets worse. Plenty of actual victimizers who need uncovering are out there. Unfortunately technology has made it far too easy to pick up false positives as well.
Okay but let's play with this a little bit.

Someone has been accused but not convicted of a sexual crime. Sure I don't have to be his friend or interact with him in any social context but let's say I'm a potential employer and won't hire him. Or I'm a landlord and won't rent an apartment to him. Is that okay?

Or, and let's really stir the pot, does this work the other way? If a female friend of mine makes a sexual harassment claim and I just want to stop being her friend because I don't want to get involved. What if I don't want to hire a woman who's been involved in previous sexual harassment claim?

Why would the second set of scenarios be any different? Why is ruining a man's life over the mere accusation of a sex crime okay as long as it's not technically being applied by a legal system when I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume people would crap kittens if someone ruined a woman's life for claiming sexual harassment but defended it with "Hey it's not legal, just social."
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:44 AM   #3102
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey sleep with me to further your career is the definition of sexual harassment. But you are ok with that part of the whole thing. That would hold up if this had not started with the offer of mentoring and other career furthering aid. But you are ok with that part.
You are yet to establish that this actually happened.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And when she made it clear she would not sleep with him he completely lost interest. It is straight up textbook sexual harassment and you are fine with that.
Still not seeing the connection between offering mentoring (which we have no proof of ever having happened) and losing interest (which did).

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
But this wasn't a friend this was a possible mentor, when the whole purpose is business related why not talk about that for a while instead of immediately shifting to talk about more personal issues? Why are you so quick to question her reading of social cues?
What do you mean "social cues"? Didn't you previously tell us all that there was no such thing, that only words counted in communication between people.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Here I thought all that subtle things made all the difference, no suddenly it is all about the words used to walk the line to make it questionable that the intended sexual offer for career advancement was made?
He backed off when she made it clear she wasn't interested. If he had offered mentoring (always understanding that there is no proof that he did), and the decided not to proceed, it simply could have been that he did not want any contact with her lest he put himself at risk of being accused of harassment.

Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
It really seems that any potential miscommunication is always been read to the benefit of the purported abuser.
Its called "presumption of innocence". Perhaps you haven't heard of this.
ETA: ninja'd by Belz... again!
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:58 AM   #3103
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Originally Posted by Porpoise of Life View Post
How's the 'assume the absolute worst about everyone's post and then respond as if they've actually said the horrible things I've imagined' stragegy working out for you?

How about if, instead of with a boatload of snark to show us your moral purity, you actually engage with what people are posting and from time to time, present an argument of your own...
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- Henry Louis Mencken - Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920

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Old 12th March 2018, 12:01 PM   #3104
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Hey sleep with me to further your career is the definition of sexual harassment. But you are ok with that part of the whole thing. That would hold up if this had not started with the offer of mentoring and other career furthering aid. But you are ok with that part.
Is this some sort of compulsion on your part?
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Old 12th March 2018, 12:10 PM   #3105
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Okay but let's play with this a little bit.

Someone has been accused but not convicted of a sexual crime. Sure I don't have to be his friend or interact with him in any social context but let's say I'm a potential employer and won't hire him. Or I'm a landlord and won't rent an apartment to him. Is that okay?

Or, and let's really stir the pot, does this work the other way? If a female friend of mine makes a sexual harassment claim and I just want to stop being her friend because I don't want to get involved. What if I don't want to hire a woman who's been involved in previous sexual harassment claim?

Why would the second set of scenarios be any different? Why is ruining a man's life over the mere accusation of a sex crime okay as long as it's not technically being applied by a legal system when I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume people would crap kittens if someone ruined a woman's life for claiming sexual harassment but defended it with "Hey it's not legal, just social."

My personal opinion is that it's probably just the rationalization that some people use for having different standards for the in-group and out-group, and not the reason they come to their conclusions in the first place. For many people the acceptability of consequences depends on the target of those consequences, not their proportionality to the offense or amount of proof of guilt. I really hate Mel Gibson so I'm happy that he got busted for drunk driving even though I secretly suspect he was framed by CHP (totally fictitious example). One can deflect that nagging question of 'what proof do you have that <person> did <x> thereby justifying how people are treating <person>?" with that 'hey it's just social' excuse, which might be factually correct but doesn't tell the full story. Tribalism is what determines what is and is not okay to do to people, and the 'it's just social' is a hand-wave to avoid defending your conclusions rationally.

And in case #2 in your above I'd say quite a lot would depend on the details. If she comes out saying that a co-worker got really handsy at an after-hours work function even after being told bluntly to stop then yeah, shunning her for that and no other reason is unacceptable. But if she had a long history of similar complaints in several different workplaces then I'd seriously raise an eyebrow or two, especially if none of her accusations resulted in any legal action against the accused. That hints at either a malicious person with an axe to grind, or a fantasist who is grossly misreading circumstances. I'd want to keep far away from that kind of person.

None of which is to say it's okay to wreck either #1 or #2. Social media just makes it easy for us to do casually what used to take large, organized campaigns to do in the past. And that applies equally to the noble and the deplorable.
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Old 12th March 2018, 12:25 PM   #3106
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And no one is talking about criminal charges,. This is entirely with in the realm of tort where preponderance of the evidence is the legal standard.

How much in your life do you really run it by beyond a reasonable doubt instead of something closer to preponderance of the evidence?
I don't destroy people's lives, or want them dead, on reasonable doubt, I insist on strong evidence. Doubt would make me a more cautious is all.
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Old 12th March 2018, 05:33 PM   #3107
Graham2001
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
And no one is talking about criminal charges,. This is entirely with in the realm of tort where preponderance of the evidence is the legal standard.

How much in your life do you really run it by beyond a reasonable doubt instead of something closer to preponderance of the evidence?
Not for Carnival Cruise Lines...

Quote:
A Sydney father who says he was wrongly accused of exposing himself to a young female passenger on a Carnival cruise, then beaten up by her father and interrogated by security before they noticed their obvious mistake, is now suing the company.
https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/3948...rnival-cruise/

And before you ask, much of the late 80s & early 1990s 'Satanic Panic' was actually a pedophile scare.
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Old 12th March 2018, 06:16 PM   #3108
smartcooky
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Originally Posted by Graham2001 View Post
Not for Carnival Cruise Lines...



https://au.news.yahoo.com/nsw/a/3948...rnival-cruise/

And before you ask, much of the late 80s & early 1990s 'Satanic Panic' was actually a pedophile scare.
Quote:
"He's suing the operator for breach of contract, misleading or deceptive conduct, defamation, unjustified or unlawful detention and negligence. He is seeking damages up to $100,000."
That's light... I'd be going for a couple of million at least. I'd also be making an aggravated assault complaint against the father and demanding jail time for him.

This is the sort of result that "the victim must always be believed" can lead to. The problem is that the pondering turtles and luchogs of this world (as well as advocates of "always believe the victim"), will just dismiss this as unimportant, because they think its far more important to get those bad guys than it is to worry about some innocent old guy getting beaten the crap out of.
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