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Old 18th January 2018, 06:28 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by Minoosh View Post
There are cases of parents abusing some siblings and not others.

Fair point but those trips to Vegas and Disneyland weren't free. And perhaps there was underfeeding that was not related to affordability.

Are there news stories out there telling us more yet?

If puberty were delayed, I'm sure that could affect facial features. I've also noticed that with profound disability (I'm talking major head trauma, kids brain-damaged, diapered and in wheelchairs for life) teenagers sometimes look much younger.
Why Vegas? It didn't get the nickname "Sin City" for nothing. Seems an odd choice for the hyper religious. I figure them for more of the Branson Missouri types.
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Old 18th January 2018, 06:44 AM   #82
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Dude’s haircut alone pretty much guarantees incest.
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Old 18th January 2018, 06:52 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
So what? You do not have to be emaciated to be malnourished, and it certainly seems to have effected their development. You can be obese and malnourished, if you are not getting the right balance of nutrients. So why focus entirely on if they look emaciated in staged photos?
I don't see anything unusual about his questions/observations. It's puzzling. For malnutrition to stunt growth one would think it would have to be an ongoing problem for years, yet photos from just a few years ago don't corroborate what we know.
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Old 18th January 2018, 07:36 AM   #84
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
Dude’s haircut alone pretty much guarantees incest.
Sheriff specifically said that there is no evidence of sexual abuse.
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Old 18th January 2018, 07:51 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
Yeah, the kids are all wearing identical clothes, with variance only for gender. That's *********** creepy when it's twins, let alone a brood this size.
The matching clothes may have been the childrens' idea and the parents went along with it to please them. We just don't know these kinds of details.
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Old 18th January 2018, 08:33 AM   #86
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Also helps to have cart blanch with regards to schooling and no need for inspection or seeing doctors. Really helps you keep the kids locked in the basement.
We don't know if the house has a basement. I believe I read that it has two bedrooms. We also don't know if the kids were actually locked inside the house or any rooms.

Quote:
http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/17/us/cal...ing/index.html

"Riverside County Sheriff's Capt. Greg Fellows, who likened the siblings' treatment to torture, said their mother was "perplexed as to why" authorities came to her home.
The California Department of Education does not have the authority to monitor or inspect private schools, according to a statement from spokesman Scott Roark."
In one article I read that California requires periodic fire inspections for private schools including home schools. It's reported that there is no record of any fire inspections happening at this house. Government might have to explain that.
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Old 18th January 2018, 09:02 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Craig4 View Post
Would not a "slightly emaciated" 10 year old be a really emaciated 17 year old?
I don't understand this question.

Originally Posted by Craig4
Why Vegas? It didn't get the nickname "Sin City" for nothing. Seems an odd choice for the hyper religious. I figure them for more of the Branson Missouri types.
They seem to have gone there to visit those quickie marriage chapels. They went three times to renew their wedding vows. They liked to have an Elvis impersonator there and we know that Elvis is as close to Jesus as any human could ever be. Elvis was Jesus in mortal form.

We don't know where they stayed or what else they did in Las Vegas. We are told that they drove there. It would be an impressive vehicle that holds 15 people.

Las Vegas is generally associated with adults. But there are hotels and attractions for families with kids. They may have done that with those theme parks and amusement facilities for their kids to have fun and enjoy. It's also possible that they did go to Branson, Missouri as well. We just don't know these details.

We know that they are religious but they didn't attend any church. Some folks would see them shopping at the supermarket with a small herd of kids brought along.

Neighbors saw the kids setting up a nativity scene in the yard. They saw them mowing the lawns as a team effort. Saw them laying sod in the backyard (strangely at night under floodlights). One neighbor described the kids as being childlike because they always skipped when trotting down the local sidewalks. When I was a kid that was an expression of fun and joy which you shared with others.
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Old 18th January 2018, 09:05 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The matching clothes may have been the childrens' idea and the parents went along with it to please them. We just don't know these kinds of details.
I'd go with "creepy" over "childrens' idea" any day of the week.
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Old 18th January 2018, 09:29 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
I'd go with "creepy" over "childrens' idea" any day of the week.
You are Information Analyst because you analyze information.

In one photo they all wear numerical "Thing" t-shirts. That's straight from Dr. Seuss cartoon stories. Those kids may have loved those stories and that's why the parents had them custom made. It's not so creepy to have your huge family all happily participate in a group shirt theme. Some would say that's a sign of family love. The Brady Bunch would have done it.

"Hey sis, let's trade shirts. You be Thing 7 and I'll be Thing 6. Let's see how long it takes them to notice. Hee hee ha ha. It will be so funny!"

Analyze that information.
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Old 18th January 2018, 09:43 AM   #90
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Does it really matter if they had the kids shackled for a few years or if it was longer? A few days of shackling should effectively erase any past well-meaning family trips. Who cares? (I may be missing the point.)

Stories like this really upset me, because I am a huge proponent of people minding their own business and the state staying out of private affairs as much as possible. But something like this - if their neighbors had been nosier (like some of my mom's, they figure it out when somebody in the neighborhood has a head cold), or if the state followed rules about periodically inspecting homeschool residences, stuff like this couldn't go on for extended periods.

Maybe it's just because I'm a freak, but to me, shackling people to beds has a real implicit sexual vibe as well. It is so unbelievably creepy that parents could do this. I wish I hadn't read this story. I need brain bleach.
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Old 18th January 2018, 09:49 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Over a dozen kids, overbearing parents who think squalor and torture is the correct way to raise children; certainly sounds like one of those quiver-full cells. But, there's still a chance it isn't.
Quick... TLC needs to offer the family a reality show!
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Old 18th January 2018, 10:26 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The matching clothes may have been the childrens' idea and the parents went along with it to please them. We just don't know these kinds of details.
FWIW, if we didn't buy them matching outfits, my twins would fight. We didn't make them wear the same outfit at the same time, though.
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Old 18th January 2018, 10:55 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
Does it really matter if they had the kids shackled for a few years or if it was longer? A few days of shackling should effectively erase any past well-meaning family trips. Who cares? (I may be missing the point.)

Stories like this really upset me, because I am a huge proponent of people minding their own business and the state staying out of private affairs as much as possible. But something like this - if their neighbors had been nosier (like some of my mom's, they figure it out when somebody in the neighborhood has a head cold), or if the state followed rules about periodically inspecting homeschool residences, stuff like this couldn't go on for extended periods.

Maybe it's just because I'm a freak, but to me, shackling people to beds has a real implicit sexual vibe as well. It is so unbelievably creepy that parents could do this. I wish I hadn't read this story. I need brain bleach.
We don't know anything about the shackling (said to be a chain). We don't know why or for how long or for who. But you don't need to know a lot to know that it's not normal at all.

It may have been a form of punishment for hours or a day. Some parents punish their kids by grounding them inside the house. You can't go out and play with your friends and go places. But these kids rarely leave the yard anyway and they don't seem to have neighborhood friends. Maybe the chain was a weird and cruel punishment involving not being able to run around the house and play with your siblings or get in front of the TV.

When found, 3 of them were chained and 10 were not.

We read about other terrible cases of child bondage where the kid(s) are permanently shackled to prevent escape or violent retaliation. This one seems to have differences as so many of them weren't chained. And this case has happy family photos at Disneyland when others do not. Yes, they could have been conditioned to not try to run away or gang tackle a parent or stab or whatever. But you can't really physically control that situation if the kids launch a mutiny and run for the exits to summon the police and neighbors.

I hope nobody here thinks I'm trying to defend the parents or minimize the gravity of the known situation. I'm not. I'm trying to understand what was going on and I'm talking about it out loud. There are a lot of unanswered questions, though some might say we already know everything we should need to know.
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Old 18th January 2018, 11:07 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We don't know anything about the shackling (said to be a chain). We don't know why or for how long or for who. But you don't need to know a lot to know that it's not normal at all.

It may have been a form of punishment for hours or a day. Some parents punish their kids by grounding them inside the house. You can't go out and play with your friends and go places. But these kids rarely leave the yard anyway and they don't seem to have neighborhood friends. Maybe the chain was a weird and cruel punishment involving not being able to run around the house and play with your siblings or get in front of the TV.

When found, 3 of them were chained and 10 were not.

We read about other terrible cases of child bondage where the kid(s) are permanently shackled to prevent escape or violent retaliation. This one seems to have differences as so many of them weren't chained. And this case has happy family photos at Disneyland when others do not. Yes, they could have been conditioned to not try to run away or gang tackle a parent or stab or whatever. But you can't really physically control that situation if the kids launch a mutiny and run for the exits to summon the police and neighbors.

I hope nobody here thinks I'm trying to defend the parents or minimize the gravity of the known situation. I'm not. I'm trying to understand what was going on and I'm talking about it out loud. There are a lot of unanswered questions, though some might say we already know everything we should need to know.
So can people not see the forest for the trees here?

If I'm going to abuse my kids (likely in this case with increasing severity over the years) I'm going to do things that will make it look like I'm not. Seldom will abusers be very obvious especially with this level of abuse.

Personally, it seems to fit the mold pretty well. You don't get away with these things by being obvious.
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Old 18th January 2018, 11:10 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We don't know anything about the shackling (said to be a chain). We don't know why or for how long or for who. But you don't need to know a lot to know that it's not normal at all.

It may have been a form of punishment for hours or a day. Some parents punish their kids by grounding them inside the house. You can't go out and play with your friends and go places. But these kids rarely leave the yard anyway and they don't seem to have neighborhood friends. Maybe the chain was a weird and cruel punishment involving not being able to run around the house and play with your siblings or get in front of the TV.

When found, 3 of them were chained and 10 were not.

We read about other terrible cases of child bondage where the kid(s) are permanently shackled to prevent escape or violent retaliation. This one seems to have differences as so many of them weren't chained. And this case has happy family photos at Disneyland when others do not. Yes, they could have been conditioned to not try to run away or gang tackle a parent or stab or whatever. But you can't really physically control that situation if the kids launch a mutiny and run for the exits to summon the police and neighbors.

I hope nobody here thinks I'm trying to defend the parents or minimize the gravity of the known situation. I'm not. I'm trying to understand what was going on and I'm talking about it out loud. There are a lot of unanswered questions, though some might say we already know everything we should need to know.
Hmmm, I think you might be on to something with the highlighted bit.

And yeah, I see what you're saying now about deciphering this oddness. It is a lot different from the (ugh) "typical cases" of this sort.

The Vegas thing makes it all even stranger. Does not seem to fit with the usual quiverfull stereotype.
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Old 18th January 2018, 01:11 PM   #96
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The children were chained for weeks or months as punishment. Here are the charges from today's arraignment...

12 counts of torture.
1 count against David Turpin of a lewd act on a child.
7 counts of abuse against a dependent adult.
6 counts of child abuse/neglect.
12 counts of false imprisonment.

If found guilty of all charges they face 94 years to life in prison.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42741049
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Old 18th January 2018, 01:15 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The children were chained for weeks or months as punishment. Here are the charges from today's arraignment...

12 counts of torture.
1 count against David Turpin of a lewd act on a child.
7 counts of abuse against a dependent adult.
6 counts of child abuse/neglect.
12 counts of false imprisonment.

If found guilty of all charges they face 94 years to life in prison.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42741049
The haircut!
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Old 18th January 2018, 01:34 PM   #98
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12-year-old has the weight of an average 7-year-old (no height mentioned).

29-year-old daughter weighs 82 pounds (no height mentioned).

Originally Posted by CNN
Besides suffering severe caloric malnutrition associated with muscle wasting, several have cognitive impairment and "neuropathy, which is nerve damage, as a result of this extreme and prolonged physical abuse," District Attorney Hestrin said...

not allowed to shower more than once a year...

David and Louise Turpin would tie up or chain their offspring as punishment -- both the minor children and the adults...

"Punishment would last weeks or even months at a time," Hestrin said. Evidence, he added, suggests that the victims often were not released from their chains to go to the bathroom...
http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/18/us/tur...ion/index.html
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Old 18th January 2018, 01:36 PM   #99
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
The children were chained for weeks or months as punishment. Here are the charges from today's arraignment...

12 counts of torture.
1 count against David Turpin of a lewd act on a child.
7 counts of abuse against a dependent adult.
6 counts of child abuse/neglect.
12 counts of false imprisonment.

If found guilty of all charges they face 94 years to life in prison.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-42741049
You nailed it.

I wonder what's up with the "lewd act" bit. Wasn't one investigator or another categorically stating that no sexual abuse had occurred? Can a lewd act mean something non-sexual?
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Old 18th January 2018, 01:39 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
The haircut!
Lol
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Old 18th January 2018, 01:54 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by isissxn View Post
I wonder what's up with the "lewd act" bit. Wasn't one investigator or another categorically stating that no sexual abuse had occurred? Can a lewd act mean something non-sexual?
Maybe lewd can be something that is not sexual. I'm trying to imagine a lewd act that is not a sexual act... take a marker pen and write on your son's forehead, "My dick stinks!"

Yes, an investigator said there was no evidence of sexual abuse.
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Old 18th January 2018, 02:02 PM   #102
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Shower only once a year. They must have had showers before all of the photos. They look clean and the hair is great.

I hope it's not a stupid prosecutor bias such as "well, regular baths but annual showers".
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Old 18th January 2018, 02:09 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
12-year-old has the weight of an average 7-year-old (no height mentioned).

29-year-old daughter weighs 82 pounds (no height mentioned).
82 pounds, that's like 37 kg? Wow, that is Auschwitz-level malnourishment.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
In the video, the prosecutor also mentions that the parents would buy pies for themselves to eat, and put them on the kitchen top for the children to look at, but not allow them to eat...

ETA: And then there's this:
Quote:
The mother was "perplexed as to why" authorities came to her home, Riverside County Sheriff's Capt. Greg Fellows said Tuesday.
Really? She had no idea? Is she terminally stupid or just playing it?
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Old 18th January 2018, 02:10 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
82 pounds, that's like 37 kg? Wow, that is Auschwitz-level malnourishment.
Maybe, the other side is that they were so stunted they would not be quite as skelatal, unlike the full grown people at Auschwitz.
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Old 18th January 2018, 02:32 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
Maybe, the other side is that they were so stunted they would not be quite as skelatal, unlike the full grown people at Auschwitz.
Fair enough. On the upside, Auschwitz taught carers that you shouldn't let people who have been malnourished feast on large doses of food as that may be fatal.

This BBC article has some more juicy bits:
Quote:
The sister of Louise Turpin, Elizabeth Flores, told ABC's Good Morning America programme that she had never felt comfortable around her brother-in-law, and accused him of watching her in the shower when she briefly lived with the couple.

"I thought they were really strict, but I didn't see any abuse," Ms Flores said.

Another sister, Teresa Robinette, said she was "hurt and shocked" by the revelations about the children's alleged treatment.

"I always made comments to Louise when I did talk to her, about, 'Gosh, they're so skinny.' And she would laugh it off: 'Well David's so tall and lanky. They're going to be like him'," she told NBC's Today programme.
And the neglect and abuse is not something from the last years. Jason Allen of CBS has tweeted some pictures of their former home in Fort Worth, Texas, where they used to live 18 years ago, how the new occupants found it when they moved out. Filthy and with scratches on the walls.
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Old 18th January 2018, 02:54 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
82 pounds, that's like 37 kg? Wow, that is Auschwitz-level malnourishment.
It does depend on the height though. I don't know why they aren't including height with the weight. Some posters here say that they look super short.

The oddity for me is that they don't look anything like Auschwitz in the photos including the most recent one. They are skinny or slender but Auschwitz emaciation just isn't seen in the pictures. It seems that they might have had great weight loss since those photos.

Quote:
Really? She had no idea? Is she terminally stupid or just playing it?
An investigator said that the parents show no sign of mental illness and that's even after the mother's surprised reaction. To me that is a sign of mental illness - being clueless that something is very wrong. Anyway I hope his comment isn't just a dirty way of attempting to shut out an insanity defense.
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Old 18th January 2018, 03:10 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Maybe lewd can be something that is not sexual. I'm trying to imagine a lewd act that is not a sexual act... take a marker pen and write on your son's forehead, "My dick stinks!"

Yes, an investigator said there was no evidence of sexual abuse.
It is possible that between the day the investigator said that and the day the charges were officially filed, something new was learned.
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Old 18th January 2018, 03:38 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
It is possible that between the day the investigator said that and the day the charges were officially filed, something new was learned.
Yeah, but sexual abuse and incest are well known charges. This one is about a lewd act of some sort. It's weird because it's a term we don't hear in criminal charges. Like something straight out of 1916.
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Old 18th January 2018, 03:59 PM   #109
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It is this

Quote:
CA Penal Code 288 - LEWD ACTS WITH A MINOR

To be convicted of Lewd Acts with a Minor Under 14, CA Penal Code 288, the prosecutor must prove:
  • That you willfully touched any part of a child’s body or that you willfully caused a child to touch his/her own body, your body, or another’s person’s body
  • That you did so with the intent of arousing, appealing to, or gratifying the lust, passion, or sexual desires of your or of the child
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Old 18th January 2018, 04:42 PM   #110
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Both parents pleaded not guilty today. He has a public defender and she has a private lawyer. The next court date is Feb. 28th.

The children had never been to a dentist and have not been to a doctor in 4 years. Apparently, no doctor called the police. How could that happen given what we have been told about their condition and treatment?

The children were allowed to write and keep personal journals. The investigators have them - hundreds of pages.
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Old 18th January 2018, 06:08 PM   #111
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
82 pounds, that's like 37 kg? Wow, that is Auschwitz-level malnourishment.


In the video, the prosecutor also mentions that the parents would buy pies for themselves to eat, and put them on the kitchen top for the children to look at, but not allow them to eat...

ETA: And then there's this:

Really? She had no idea? Is she terminally stupid or just playing it?
Religion. According to the Bible all of that is perfectly fine I'm sure.

But seriously, perhaps they lived in an information bubble: No TV, no news, modern culture could be totally foreign because they intentionally tried to keep it out of their lives lest it infect the children with ideas contrary to their religious beliefs. The father seems to be the only one with much interaction with the outside world.
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Old 18th January 2018, 06:12 PM   #112
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Severe malnutrition is the general description given of their condition. You saw the laundry list of their other physical and mental conditions. There is no mention of growth stunting or abnormally small size.

They are reported to be so uneducated and detached from the world that they didn't know what a police officer is. Yet a girl called the police.

We are now told that a son was attending college. Wait, what? Months on end in shackles and severe malnutrition with neurological problems and no knowledge of what police are and he's in college?

Dots of logic and reason and cause and effect cannot be connected.

Severe malnutrition and wearing chains for months and you go to the doctor and he says ok see you later have a nice day?

One shower per year, in chains for weeks and months, shockingly malnourished and they all go for a romp at Disneyland with cute matching shirts and pose for a smiling picture that looks like a happy Brady Bunch?

WTF? Where is their information on the perpetually ongoing abusive treatment coming from? Why the hell do they all look good and healthy and happy in all the photographs?
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Old 18th January 2018, 06:19 PM   #113
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Overhead in Las Vegas: Hey you girls - your hair looks fantastic, how do you do it? We're severely malnourished and we shower once a year. Oh.
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Old 18th January 2018, 08:11 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I'm not sure what else there is to talk about. These people are nuts, it happens. Sure is a shocker.

I think it could be the clothes and hair styles in the photos that make them look younger. Especially the girls, they're dressed like dorks. Poor kids.

People who have that many kids gross me out, it makes me ill thinking about it. Like eww don't touch me you demented freaks! Lock these idiots up or shoot them, get the kids some help. Next!

Ok I don't know what mood I was in or what I thought the thread was about when I posted this, but I just read a detailed report of how these kids were treated and I'm sick to my stomach. A lot of new details have been released.

I was wrong, there is plenty to discuss here, or at least to be horrified by. I regret my earlier flippant answer. I don't even know what to quote out of the article(s) - all of it is beyond horrific.

"I'm not crazy about the death penalty but..." definitely applies to me here, unless it isn't deemed harsh enough. I'm open to suggestions. I hope they are treated exponentially worse than their kids ever were, though I don't see how that's even possible.

If there were any replies to my post I didn't read them. I came straight to it and hit "quote" after reading the article. This is one of the most disgusting and disturbing stories I've ever heard.
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Old 18th January 2018, 09:44 PM   #115
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
They are reported to be so uneducated and detached from the world that they didn't know what a police officer is. Yet a girl called the police.
Note that the girl called 911, not police specifically.

Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We are now told that a son was attending college. Wait, what? Months on end in shackles and severe malnutrition with neurological problems and no knowledge of what police are and he's in college?
Where did you see that? I haven't seen it in any of the articles I've read.
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Old 18th January 2018, 09:55 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
"I'm not crazy about the death penalty but..." definitely applies to me here, unless it isn't deemed harsh enough.
I'm not aware of any death penalty except in cases of first degree murder and, possibly, treason (federal). California hasn't executed anyone since 2006.
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Old 18th January 2018, 11:50 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
12-year-old has the weight of an average 7-year-old (no height mentioned).

29-year-old daughter weighs 82 pounds (no height mentioned).



http://www.cnn.com/2018/01/18/us/tur...ion/index.html
For a 29-year-old woman to weigh 82 pounds is off the chart:
http://halls.md/average-weight-women/

(wish I had a better link, but it's below the 5th percentile and is close to a normal weight for an 11-year-old girl.)

It sounds like the sort of weight you might hear about in a case of extreme anorexia or bulimia.

I think we can say that their normal physical development was stunted.

I see in that article that the judge upped the bail from $9 million each to $12 million each.
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Old 19th January 2018, 01:05 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
For a 29-year-old woman to weigh 82 pounds is off the chart:
http://halls.md/average-weight-women/

(wish I had a better link, but it's below the 5th percentile and is close to a normal weight for an 11-year-old girl.)

It sounds like the sort of weight you might hear about in a case of extreme anorexia or bulimia.

I think we can say that their normal physical development was stunted.

I see in that article that the judge upped the bail from $9 million each to $12 million each.
The bail top up was the extra charges I think

Might be wrong
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Old 19th January 2018, 02:32 AM   #119
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Originally Posted by Pterodactyl View Post
The haircut!

Exactly! Enginerds - gotta' compensate for not feeling the mojo!
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Old 19th January 2018, 06:42 AM   #120
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Note that the girl called 911, not police specifically.
911 is how you call the police. But we're told that they don't know what a police officer is. We're told they are uneducated and detached from the real world. Yet the girl knows how to operate a cellphone.


Quote:
Where did you see that? I haven't seen it in any of the articles I've read.
It's in many articles. I was looking at BBC, CNN, Washington Post and DailyMail. You are going to find it.
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