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Old 19th January 2018, 06:55 AM   #121
Blue Mountain
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Some random thoughts.

I'm interested in how the 17 year old plotted the escape and the subsequent call to authorities. From what I've been able to gather the children weren't given much information about how the world at large worked. There was no access to TV and probably no radio. If there was internet in the house I suspect the parents made sure none of the children ever used it, or it was nanny filtered in the extreme.

So how did she learn about calling 911? And where did the cell phone come from? Apparently it wasn't registered to a carrier. I know that phone systems will try very hard to get a 911 call through. I wonder if she knew that or just was lucky that it's how the system works?

I'm guessing that since they had been out of the house a few times for trips to Disneyland and Las Vegas, there would be opportunities to pick up a few facts.

I've read that one of the boys was attending college. Apparently his mother would drive him there, hang around outside his classes, then whisk him back home at the end of the school day. I wonder what he was studying and whose idea it was for him to go?

Apparently they kept journals. That tells me they were taught to read and write. But what was there to write about? I suspect the journals are for the most part very boring, with the odd fascinating parts here and there.
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Old 19th January 2018, 06:56 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by Puppycow View Post
For a 29-year-old woman to weigh 82 pounds is off the chart:
http://halls.md/average-weight-women/

(wish I had a better link, but it's below the 5th percentile and is close to a normal weight for an 11-year-old girl.)

It sounds like the sort of weight you might hear about in a case of extreme anorexia or bulimia.

I think we can say that their normal physical development was stunted.
I don't think that they are height stunted. I went back to the photos. A number of the girls are already as tall as or taller than their mother. The younger ones are shorter as is expected since they are still gaining height. It might turn out that all of the daughters end up being taller than their mother. Same with the boys. Height stunting is just not there in the photos when you compare the kids to the parents.

Now we are told that they were regularly beaten and strangled. The photos show no bruising or evidence of strangulation at the neck.
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Old 19th January 2018, 07:41 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
... Why the hell do they all look good and healthy and happy in all the photographs?
Perhaps because they aren't in chains.
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Old 19th January 2018, 07:42 AM   #124
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
....
Now we are told that they were regularly beaten and strangled. The photos show no bruising or evidence of strangulation at the neck.
You sound desperate to minimize the unspeakable hell these children survived. Yeah, it is sickening to believe. That doesn't mean it isn't true. Read the latest reports:
http://beta.latimes.com/local/lanow/...t=oft12aH-2gp2
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.077bc1b232b5
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Old 19th January 2018, 07:50 AM   #125
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Now we are told that they were regularly beaten and strangled. The photos show no bruising or evidence of strangulation at the neck.
Okay, stay with me now because we're going to take a leap of logic. Perhaps, it's possible that prior to the photos no one was strangled. It could also be that it was done in such a way that the perpetrator did not leave marks.
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Old 19th January 2018, 08:22 AM   #126
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
911 is how you call the police. But we're told that they don't know what a police officer is. We're told they are uneducated and detached from the real world. Yet the girl knows how to operate a cellphone.
Children can be taught from a very young age that you call 911 when you need "help", and retain that idea, without learning or needing to know the intricacies or specifics of what happens when you call. It's possible that sometime in the last 17 years the girl became familiar with the basic concept of "call 911 for help".

And it's not all that unbelievable that the girl may have been aware of the basic concepts behind using a phone. It has been said the parents were keen to do things like leave food out in plain sight of the children while forbidding them to eat it. This suggests that the parents did not necessarily deprive themselves of the same things that they deprived their children of. One or both of the parents may have owned a cell phone and freely used it in front of the children enough for them to absorb what it was and basically how it worked. Additionally, the phone itself may have made it easy: Some simple cell phones, when not activated for service, have an option on the home screen to call emergency services.

That none of the 3 or 4 photos we have shows any bruising is meaningless, it only indicates that with a week or so before the moment they were taken none of the kids was choked hard enough to leave a bruise. It's important to note that none of the photos we have is candid - they are posed shots taken in public on what are obviously very special occasions and it's not beyond the realm of possibility that the parents had the foresight to make sure the children weren't obviously bruised or dirty on these rare occasions when they were out in view of the public. Perhaps on these occasions the parents saved any earned "discipline" for after the family got back home.
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Old 19th January 2018, 08:42 AM   #127
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These kinds of inconsistencies are not news to anyone who has been involved with the child protective services.

"Strangled every day! Locked in the basement every night! But no one suspected because they were in school every morning!"

"No contact with the outside world, but closets full of trendy clothes and dating far too young!"

It doesn't matter what the truth is. What matters is how much money the state will get from the feds for treating the problems -the stranger the tales, the bigger the checks.
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Old 19th January 2018, 08:43 AM   #128
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We are now told that the children were forced to sleep all day and be awake all night. A reversed normalcy for a human. Does this mean that the parents also had that same reversal?
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Old 19th January 2018, 08:47 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We're told they are uneducated and detached from the real world. Yet the girl knows how to operate a cellphone.
Sounds completely normal to me!
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Old 19th January 2018, 09:00 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by Blue Mountain View Post
So how did she learn about calling 911? And where did the cell phone come from? Apparently it wasn't registered to a carrier. I know that phone systems will try very hard to get a 911 call through. I wonder if she knew that or just was lucky that it's how the system works?
I have a mobile (cell) phone lying around. I took the SIM card out of it on Christmas Day when Mrs Don gave me a Nokia 8. I've put in a pay-as-you-go SIM card but have not yet activated it.

Even if the phone is locked, there is a screen button saying "emergency calls". I could make a '999' call without having unlocked the phone, having an active SIM card or knowing the number to dial.
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Old 19th January 2018, 09:08 AM   #131
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With that man's haircut, someone should have suspected something a long time ago.
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Old 19th January 2018, 09:49 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Ryokan View Post
With that man's haircut, someone should have suspected something a long time ago.
He's the long-lost fifth Beatle.
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Old 19th January 2018, 09:52 AM   #133
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
I have a mobile (cell) phone lying around. I took the SIM card out of it on Christmas Day when Mrs Don gave me a Nokia 8. I've put in a pay-as-you-go SIM card but have not yet activated it.

Even if the phone is locked, there is a screen button saying "emergency calls". I could make a '999' call without having unlocked the phone, having an active SIM card or knowing the number to dial.
AFAIK that's by law in the UK (and EU?). No idea about the US.
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Old 19th January 2018, 10:02 AM   #134
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I don't know if it is mandated by law in the US (it might be); but in my experience it is the case nonetheless.
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Old 19th January 2018, 10:05 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
AFAIK that's by law in the UK (and EU?). No idea about the US.

That's the law in the U.S. too. Any cell phone can be used to call 911. There are programs to collect old, no-carrier phones to give to domestic violence victims so they will always be able to call 911.

People forget that a cell phone is basically a radio transmitter. Unless it's out of range, a signal from the phone will always reach the tower and enter the system. The system decides whether to accept it and connect it, or to reject it for lack of payment. It always accepts 911 calls. I also understand that for non-911 purposes, you can reach an operator with any phone and charge a call with a credit card.

I found it significant, somehow, that the girl escaped and used the phone rather than running to a neighbor and banging on the door. They must have had to wait a long time for a chance to steal that phone. I wonder if they were so scared of people generally that they didn't trust the neighbors.
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Old 19th January 2018, 11:43 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
We are now told that the children were forced to sleep all day and be awake all night. A reversed normalcy for a human. Does this mean that the parents also had that same reversal?
That's what you're worried about? I was more concerned about the starvation and torture.
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Old 19th January 2018, 02:47 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Both parents pleaded not guilty today. He has a public defender and she has a private lawyer. The next court date is Feb. 28th.
That's interesting. If I may go out on a guess, the mother's parents and/or sister(s) care enough for her that they ponied up for the lawyer, in the hope to offload as much as possible of the guilt to the father. That also opens up the possibility for the prosecutors to play them against each other.

FWIW, I don't think there's any excuse, save severe mental impairment, for either of the parents to absolve of guilt.
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Old 19th January 2018, 02:48 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
AFAIK that's by law in the UK (and EU?). No idea about the US.
Yes, also in the EU.
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Old 19th January 2018, 02:59 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That's interesting. If I may go out on a guess, the mother's parents and/or sister(s) care enough for her that they ponied up for the lawyer, in the hope to offload as much as possible of the guilt to the father. That also opens up the possibility for the prosecutors to play them against each other.
.....
Stories I've read say they have public defenders. It's hard to imagine that the relatives have the money to pay for what a private defense in this case would cost.

This story says California authorities are comparing notes with authorities in Texas, where they lived previously. It wouldn't be a surprise if there are some Texas charges, too.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...118-story.html

EDITED TO ADD: But this story does say she has a private attorney, but it doesn't say whether he might have been court-appointed. Defense will be very expensive if they have to pay for it themselves.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/califor...tream-updates/

Last edited by Bob001; 19th January 2018 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 19th January 2018, 03:19 PM   #140
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Does anybody really think this will really go to trial? I see a plea bargain in their future, maybe life with the possibility of parole vs. life/no parole if they get convicted.
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Old 19th January 2018, 04:19 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
This story says California authorities are comparing notes with authorities in Texas, where they lived previously. It wouldn't be a surprise if there are some Texas charges, too.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/l...118-story.html
There's an article floating around that I saw yesterday which has photographs of the interiors of two houses the family had occupied in Texas, taken by the eventual buyers. In one, the house is cleared of belongings but the walls and carpets are shown to be in a filthy and thoroughly disgusting state. In the other, the home is still filled with some hoarder-type clutter and there are several features that stood out to the buyer as particularly odd, such as inexplicably-damaged bedroom closet doors, and screwed wood panels installed over and blocking the air vents.
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Old 19th January 2018, 04:40 PM   #142
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Think the emergency number thing is law everywhere.

Was on QI a while ago as an interesting fact that in the US 911 is called the most on Xmas day, as every idiot is doing it to try their new phones without connections or SIM cards

Pretty funny really

Unless your the person actually dying and can't get through
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Old 19th January 2018, 04:44 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That's interesting. If I may go out on a guess, the mother's parents and/or sister(s) care enough for her that they ponied up for the lawyer, in the hope to offload as much as possible of the guilt to the father. That also opens up the possibility for the prosecutors to play them against each other.

FWIW, I don't think there's any excuse, save severe mental impairment, for either of the parents to absolve of guilt.
That's why they get a trial in a court of law. It's supposed to prevent lynch mobs and trials by emotion.
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Old 19th January 2018, 04:52 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
Yes, also in the EU.
USA also.
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Old 19th January 2018, 04:57 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
That's why they get a trial in a court of law. It's supposed to prevent lynch mobs and trials by emotion.
OK, point taken. That was poorly phrased. I'll rephrase.

If the charges made are proven without reasonable doubt, I can't see how you can convict one parent and the other not. There's no way one is responsible for ongoing malnutrition, locking up and torture and the other not.

Can you agree with that statement?
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Last edited by ddt; 19th January 2018 at 04:59 PM.
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Old 19th January 2018, 05:05 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
OK, point taken. That was poorly phrased. I'll rephrase.

If the charges made are proven without reasonable doubt, I can't see how you can convict one parent and the other not. There's no way one is responsible for ongoing malnutrition, locking up and torture and the other not.

Can you agree with that statement?
I absolutely can.

If you're going to predict that one parent will be held 'more responsible' than the other, I can agree with that prediction also.
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Old 19th January 2018, 05:06 PM   #147
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More newly-published family group photos and a story about the mother's past.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...eloped-16.html


Hundreds of DVDs in the house. Many or most seem to be children's themes. This suggests that they have a TV and/or computer. Some photos here also showing board games.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rs-family.html
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Old 19th January 2018, 05:15 PM   #148
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
If the charges made are proven without reasonable doubt, I can't see how you can convict one parent and the other not. There's no way one is responsible for ongoing malnutrition, locking up and torture and the other not.
Yeah, both parents have the exact same charges against them, other than that he has the extra lewd act charge. Prosecutors apparently regard them both as equally responsible. There's no indication of who was doing the punishing and abusing or if it was both. We are told that she was a housewife staying at home and he worked as an engineer in aerospace and defense.
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Old 19th January 2018, 05:37 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
EDITED TO ADD: But this story does say she has a private attorney, but it doesn't say whether he might have been court-appointed. Defense will be very expensive if they have to pay for it themselves.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/califor...tream-updates/
I don't see that article mention she has a private attorney, actually. But this Daily Fail article does:
Quote:
The couple are being represented separately: David by David Macher of the Public Defender's Office and Louise by Jeff Moore of local law firm Blumenthal Law Office's.
That does not say who pays for Moore. Is it customary that the court appoints a private attorney when there's a public defender's office?

The family, apparently, also had two puppies that were not malnourished.
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Old 19th January 2018, 05:42 PM   #150
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It's a source for factual information and photos not found in any other media and it's called the DailyFail.
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Old 19th January 2018, 05:44 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
There's an article floating around that I saw yesterday which has photographs of the interiors of two houses the family had occupied in Texas, taken by the eventual buyers. In one, the house is cleared of belongings but the walls and carpets are shown to be in a filthy and thoroughly disgusting state. In the other, the home is still filled with some hoarder-type clutter and there are several features that stood out to the buyer as particularly odd, such as inexplicably-damaged bedroom closet doors, and screwed wood panels installed over and blocking the air vents.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...used-live.html

To be fair, judging from the recent closet photo taken by the new owner, it appears that the new owner also shares a penchant for child enslavement and torture.
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Old 19th January 2018, 05:48 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Hundreds of DVDs in the house. Many or most seem to be children's themes. This suggests that they have a TV and/or computer. Some photos here also showing board games.
Again supporting the notion that the couple did not deprive themselves, just their children. The articles also state that while the children say none of them were ever given any toys to own, investigators found a wealth of toys in the house, all still in their unopened packages. These along with the supposed trips to theme parks and Vegas definitely proof that the squalor and famine the children were forced to live in wasn't a result of financial difficulty. They could have afforded to give the children a normal life and keep them well-fed and healthy. It was a deliberate choice not to.

It almost sounds like the couple was living a sort of private double-life, where they surrounded themselves with these trappings of a large, happy and normal family that they would drag out once in a while for photographs and indulgence, but otherwise kept packed up and stored away when "not in use", children included.
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Old 19th January 2018, 06:01 PM   #153
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
More newly-published family group photos and a story about the mother's past.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...eloped-16.html


Hundreds of DVDs in the house. Many or most seem to be children's themes. This suggests that they have a TV and/or computer. Some photos here also showing board games.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...rs-family.html
My God, man! DVD's! Alphabetized! The complete box set of Everybody Loves Raymond !! How can you say these children were not being tortured?*


*Seriously, why does the Daily Fail find this relevant? Were they expecting Blu-ray™ Discs. Everything converted to .mkv with Handbrake and put onto a dedicated HDD or Flash Drive?
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Old 19th January 2018, 06:08 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
That does not say who pays for Moore. Is it customary that the court appoints a private attorney when there's a public defender's office?
If there aren't enough public defenders available, yes. Attorneys are encouraged to do such work pro bono.
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Old 19th January 2018, 06:09 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by Checkmite View Post
Again supporting the notion that the couple did not deprive themselves, just their children.
Did you look at the titles? Hundreds of kids movies. And you are claiming that the parents only ever indulged themselves? I'm a skeptic.
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Old 19th January 2018, 06:17 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Did you look at the titles? Hundreds of kids movies. And you are claiming that the parents only ever indulged themselves? I'm a skeptic.
I saw a few kids movies; hardly hundreds. In fact it seemed to me that children's movies didn't even comprise the bulk of the collection, just to tell from the few photographs provided.

There's nothing wrong with being skeptical.

My own approach is that, no matter what you may think you see in them, a handful of group still photographs taken two or three years ago or even more do not provide sufficiently-compelling evidence to suspect the local police of lying or exaggerating in their report about the nauseating condition of the home and the children when they entered the residence a couple of days ago. If nothing else, the fact that the children are still in the hospital recovering as of the latest reports, supports the contention that they were in bad shape.
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Old 19th January 2018, 06:31 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Yeah, both parents have the exact same charges against them, other than that he has the extra lewd act charge. Prosecutors apparently regard them both as equally responsible. There's no indication of who was doing the punishing and abusing or if it was both. We are told that she was a housewife staying at home and he worked as an engineer in aerospace and defense.
I think you miss the point I'm trying to make, so let me try again.

There's no way to convict one parent and acquit the other.

The "lewd act" the father is accused of, but the mother not, is a contrast to what I'm arguing. That's indeed something that the mother didn't do and that can have escaped her attention.

But the torture through malnourishment, locking them up, depriving them of anything resembling education, and shackling for days on end, is an ongoing 24/7 process that must have been carried out by both parents. There's no way that has only been carried out by one parent without the other knowing and thus participating. Both parents are responsible for raising their kids.

So if that all is established as fact, both parents must be guilty. At most, the attorney of one of them can try to argue that the other set it up and that their client should receive some leniency in the sentencing.
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Old 19th January 2018, 06:41 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
I absolutely can.

If you're going to predict that one parent will be held 'more responsible' than the other, I can agree with that prediction also.
Yes, I'm going to predict that. And that will be the main function of them having separate attorneys, so that they can try to shift the blame to each other.
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Old 19th January 2018, 06:43 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by Elagabalus View Post
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...used-live.html

To be fair, judging from the recent closet photo taken by the new owner, it appears that the new owner also shares a penchant for child enslavement and torture.
One child in each drawer of the filing cabinet?

(that's an odd thing to have in a bedroom closet).
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Old 19th January 2018, 06:45 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by ddt View Post
But the torture through malnourishment, locking them up, depriving them of anything resembling education, and shackling for days on end, is an ongoing 24/7 process that must have been carried out by both parents. There's no way that has only been carried out by one parent without the other knowing and thus participating. Both parents are responsible for raising their kids.
It's quite comical to think that if the charges are true as given, only one of the parents could be responsible and the other may have been completely oblivious.

"Darling, have you seen any of our thirteen kids lately? I can't remember seeing them since that Vegas trip two years ago."

"'Kids'? I don't know what you mean, dear. We don't have any kids."

"Oh my, silly me. But what is that awful stench that is permeating our house? And what is that metallic clinking sound I keep hearing coming from the bedrooms?"

"That's just the neighbor's dog."

"Yes you're probably right. I love you, shnookums."
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