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Tags gun control issues , gun laws , guns

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Old 28th February 2018, 10:55 AM   #321
Hellbound
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Personally, I think the best option would be to target specific attributes: Limit magazine size on any detachable-magazine rifle, for example (internal magazines, I think, would be fine...or at the least have a much higher limit).

Still, no matter what's done, a ban isn't going to fix things quickly. By that I mean not within 10 years, at a minimum. I wouldn't expect to even see much difference at all until several years had passed.

I still say a better solution is to remove the stupid "no electronic records" and "no funding research" rules. Get better records of sales and better background checks combined with licensing. Pass laws requiring safe storage (at the least make people civilly liable for unsafe storage), and to require reporting of stolen firearms (most states don't require this). Actually enable the research to determine the extent and character of the problem(s). That's the long term part.

Short term? The best option is "contain and protect". Design schools in ways to secure them: electronic doors, for example, that can be locked remotely (from a central office, say). Bullet proof (or at least resistant) windows and doors. Give staff "panic buttons" and/or at least radios to contact the central office in the case of an incident. Staff should also be able to trigger a hard lock manually, perhaps with an RFID badge or smartcard, so a class could escape a room and lock the shooter in behind them. This would let the school be locked down in an active shooter situation, meaning the shooter becomes limited to one room or hallway, instead of roaming for more targets. That's the immediate solution. We could easily have the funding to do that if the government shifted about 0.5% of military spending to this project.

Or better yet, repurpose the funds allocated to "the wall"
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Old 28th February 2018, 11:01 AM   #322
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Depends on how you read the 2A, I guess. The military has a definition of "assault rifle" that is based on practicalities of small-unit combat. If we used that definition as the universal one, we could ban self-loading rifles that use intermediate cartridges and have selective fire.

But for the "well regulated militia" fetishists on the gun control side, banning the canonical firearm of the regular infantry would clearly violate *both* clauses of the amendment.

As for sanctioning people based on their "probability of becoming a nutter", that would likely violate other articles of the Constitution as well. Right to privacy. Right to freedom from unreasonable search and seizure. Right to freedom from prior restraint. Etc. Such a solution may be less problematic for some readings of the second amendment, but more problematic for other parts of the Constitution.
If somehow "Terry stops" and "civil forfeiture" have survived constitutionality checks then I really fail to see how confiscating someones firearms won't after they brag on the internet how many people they want to murder, or are declared legally insane (as two examples).

ETA: actually the civil forfeiture laws means there is precedent that "property" has no rights. Therefore property, including guns, can be taken based on mere suspicion. Its a pretty frickin dangerous precedent really.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 28th February 2018 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 28th February 2018, 11:06 AM   #323
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Personally, I think the best option would be to target specific attributes: Limit magazine size on any detachable-magazine rifle, for example (internal magazines, I think, would be fine...or at the least have a much higher limit).

Still, no matter what's done, a ban isn't going to fix things quickly. By that I mean not within 10 years, at a minimum. I wouldn't expect to even see much difference at all until several years had passed.

I still say a better solution is to remove the stupid "no electronic records" and "no funding research" rules. Get better records of sales and better background checks combined with licensing. Pass laws requiring safe storage (at the least make people civilly liable for unsafe storage), and to require reporting of stolen firearms (most states don't require this). Actually enable the research to determine the extent and character of the problem(s). That's the long term part.

Short term? The best option is "contain and protect". Design schools in ways to secure them: electronic doors, for example, that can be locked remotely (from a central office, say). Bullet proof (or at least resistant) windows and doors. Give staff "panic buttons" and/or at least radios to contact the central office in the case of an incident. Staff should also be able to trigger a hard lock manually, perhaps with an RFID badge or smartcard, so a class could escape a room and lock the shooter in behind them. This would let the school be locked down in an active shooter situation, meaning the shooter becomes limited to one room or hallway, instead of roaming for more targets. That's the immediate solution. We could easily have the funding to do that if the government shifted about 0.5% of military spending to this project.

Or better yet, repurpose the funds allocated to "the wall"
https://www.tssbulletproof.com/cost-...ystem-schools/

So a $ million a school on average, maybe(?). And there are about 100,000 public schools in the USA (source https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=84). That's $100 billion dollars just to get bullet proof glass on the outside of all schools. I mean I guess we *could* do it.
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Old 28th February 2018, 11:12 AM   #324
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Okay, so ~17% of the military budget

Still, it's going to need to be something along that route to make any immediate difference, anything else is going to take a lot of time. I still say it's a better solution that the proposed bans.

Even without bulletproofing and such, just installing electronic locks and giving staff radios would be a help, and do more, more immediately, than weapon bans (IMO). And doesn't necessarily have to be bulletproof, for that matter; the main purpose would be to keep them in one spot. The wire-mesh glass, for example, and stout doors (metal or solid hardwood) would serve the purpose, and do more to slow down a shooter than would smaller mags or using a pistol instead of a rifle.
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Old 28th February 2018, 11:18 AM   #325
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Okay, so ~17% of the military budget

Still, it's going to need to be something along that route to make any immediate difference, anything else is going to take a lot of time. I still say it's a better solution that the proposed bans.

Even without bulletproofing and such, just installing electronic locks and giving staff radios would be a help, and do more, more immediately, than weapon bans (IMO). And doesn't necessarily have to be bulletproof, for that matter; the main purpose would be to keep them in one spot. The wire-mesh glass, for example, and stout doors (metal or solid hardwood) would serve the purpose, and do more to slow down a shooter than would smaller mags or using a pistol instead of a rifle.
I'm not saying all schools have this, but the PA system where I went to school was two way. Every teacher could communicate with the office. Also, we had what we called "narcs" in high school. Security people with radios.
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Old 28th February 2018, 11:20 AM   #326
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I'm not saying all schools have this, but the PA system where I went to school was two way. Every teacher could communicate with the office. Also, we had what we called "narcs" in high school. Security people with radios.
Yeah, that's security step 1: detect.

The next step is analyze (i.e.-take the detections and figure out what's going on) and then react/mitigate (do something about it).

You have to have step 1, but without 2 and 3 you're like those commercials with the bank robbery and the "security monitor"

My main problem is a lot of the funding is done locally, so there's a very wide range of precautions. Some schools are implementing systems like I outlined above (bulletproofing, centralized security, etc). other smaller schools have traditional windows and doors, poor (if any) training on what to do or basic security procedures (such as the outside doors left unlocked between classes).

I'd like to see federal funding put towards this, and some actual mandate or standard for security.

ETA: There's about 51 million students in public school in the U.S. IF we took the proposed $17 billion for the wall and put it to schools instead, that's about $333 dollars per student. We could do a lot with that.

Last edited by Hellbound; 28th February 2018 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 28th February 2018, 11:28 AM   #327
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Even without bulletproofing and such, just installing electronic locks and giving staff radios would be a help, and do more, more immediately, than weapon bans (IMO). And doesn't necessarily have to be bulletproof, for that matter; the main purpose would be to keep them in one spot. The wire-mesh glass, for example, and stout doors (metal or solid hardwood) would serve the purpose, and do more to slow down a shooter than would smaller mags or using a pistol instead of a rifle.
Sounds like a recipe for a very high death count. You'd be trapping the shooter into a space along with students. Those could all be executed with none escaping and no rescue intervention.

A gunman suddenly appears inside a classroom with 35 students and starts shooting them. Which doors do you lock at that moment?
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Old 28th February 2018, 11:34 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Sounds like a recipe for a very high death count. You'd be trapping the shooter into a space along with students. Those could all be executed with none escaping and no rescue intervention.

A gunman suddenly appears inside a classroom with 35 students and starts shooting them. Which doors do you lock at that moment?
Yeah I'm thinking about how to implement all this, and workarounds for potential shooters. So we have just one or two controlled entry points for each school. We'll need metal detectors at each point with at least one, preferably two armed guards/police at each point. Talk about cost prohibitive, a cop after benefits costs roughly $100k a year. Now then we have a line of students milling about in line to get their stuff searched and go through the metal detector. Perfect opportunity for a mass shooting attacker. Secondly, there still have to be multiple fire exits that can be opened from the inside. So all a shooter needs to get in is a single accomplice, like at Columbine.
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Old 28th February 2018, 11:37 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
Sounds like a recipe for a very high death count. You'd be trapping the shooter into a space along with students. Those could all be executed with none escaping and no rescue intervention.

A gunman suddenly appears inside a classroom with 35 students and starts shooting them. Which doors do you lock at that moment?
Well, at that point, security has already failed. Gunman don't "suddenly appear in a classroom" unless you've already done something wrong. It's not like they pull a rifle out of their backpack in the middle of class. Exterior doors should be locked between classes, at least the "only open from the inside" type door.

And the approach should be caught on security cameras.

The idea is he/she never gets inside the classroom with the gun.

Assuming he does "appear in a classroom", you lock all the other doors to start; leave open some routes for fleeing students/staff to escape away from the shooter. Lock them behind escapees.

No system works without training and drill, and plans can be set up beforehand.

Worst case-scenario, you don't lock down anything until the shooter is in an area by himself, then you lock down that spot.

I fail to see how this would do anything other than decrease casualty counts.
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Old 28th February 2018, 11:41 AM   #330
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Well, at that point, security has already failed. Gunman don't "suddenly appear in a classroom" unless you've already done something wrong. It's not like they pull a rifle out of their backpack in the middle of class. Exterior doors should be locked between classes, at least the "only open from the inside" type door.

And the approach should be caught on security cameras.

The idea is he/she never gets inside the classroom with the gun.

Assuming he does "appear in a classroom", you lock all the other doors to start; leave open some routes for fleeing students/staff to escape away from the shooter. Lock them behind escapees.

No system works without training and drill, and plans can be set up beforehand.

Worst case-scenario, you don't lock down anything until the shooter is in an area by himself, then you lock down that spot.

I fail to see how this would do anything other than decrease casualty counts.
A CAR-15 with a foldable stock will fit in a backpack.
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Old 28th February 2018, 11:43 AM   #331
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Yeah I'm thinking about how to implement all this, and workarounds for potential shooters. So we have just one or two controlled entry points for each school. We'll need metal detectors at each point with at least one, preferably two armed guards/police at each point. Talk about cost prohibitive, a cop after benefits costs roughly $100k a year. Now then we have a line of students milling about in line to get their stuff searched and go through the metal detector. Perfect opportunity for a mass shooting attacker. Secondly, there still have to be multiple fire exits that can be opened from the inside. So all a shooter needs to get in is a single accomplice, like at Columbine.
As opposed to today, where we have none of that, students still mill around outside between classes and at lunch (or mill about in large, enclosed areas inside), have no metal detectors or guards or searches.

Besides, I didn't include metal detectors, but it's an option.

It's not perfect, but nothing is...and I fail to see how it'd be worse than what we currently have. Besides, it's the start of an idea, there'd be other design considerations, and it'd take time to get the right combination.

So what about the alternatives? If this isn't something to help, what will? the "assault weapons ban"? That leaves thousands of grandfathered weapons, as well as weapons that provide similar functionality (but just look different) available?

If there's a better solution, I'm open to it. Seriously. Details would have to be worked out on my proposal, but at least some school systems are already planning on implementing it, so someone is thinking along these lines besides me.
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Old 28th February 2018, 11:45 AM   #332
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
A CAR-15 with a foldable stock will fit in a backpack.
Yes, there are exceptions. But how would it be worse than the current situation, where they can do exactly the same thing with less resistance or ability to do something about it?

I feel like this is being rejected because it's not perfect...when it's a damn sight better than doing nothing.
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Old 28th February 2018, 11:47 AM   #333
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Yes, there are exceptions. But how would it be worse than the current situation, where they can do exactly the same thing with less resistance or ability to do something about it?

I feel like this is being rejected because it's not perfect...when it's a damn sight better than doing nothing.
Thinking of flaws is not rejection. There's also cost/benefit on the money required. $100 billion would go a long ways to getting the 1000's who die each year from lack of adequate medical care, medical care. Of course we'll squander it on Littoral Combat Ships etc rather than spending on that, so its a bit irrelevant.

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Old 28th February 2018, 11:49 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Yeah he had to stop and shoot people multiple times, or go for a head shot. Had he not needed to do that, its pretty likely that Cho would've killed more people.



There is a small possibility it would at that range (given prompt medical attention). 22 LR is hitting with about 30 foot pounds of energy at that range.
He didn't need to do that, he chose to do that.

.22LR goes through both sides of a steel entry door at 200 yards, probably the most popular semi-auto rifle in the USA, the Ruger 10/22. With 25 round magazines readily available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo24lo_hUAA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_10/22
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Old 28th February 2018, 11:49 AM   #335
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Thinking of flaws is not rejection.
You're right, and I'd welcome constructive criticism. Sorry, the initial "pointing out flaws" of how this would (somehow) be worse than nothing set the tone [Ed. in which I read the follow-on posts]

As I said, the details need to be worked on, but it's promising. The same principals are already used in secure installations, so a lot of these should be worked out for various scenarios. I don't believe it's an insurmountable obstacle.
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Old 28th February 2018, 11:58 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by LTC8K6 View Post
.22LR goes through both sides of a steel entry door at 200 yards, probably the most popular semi-auto rifle in the USA, the Ruger 10/22. With 25 round magazines readily available.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fo24lo_hUAA

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_10/22
Thats a thin metal-skinned door. Not an actual steel door. If 22 LR is so great why doesn't the military use them. Why don't police carry them?

I've seen a 3/4" inch wooden plank holding a target up hit by 22 LR. It didn't go all the way through at 100 yards.

But I guess you're right? Any impending AWB should include the Ruger 10/22. I had a 30 round mag for it when I was a kid BTW.
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Old 28th February 2018, 12:12 PM   #337
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Thats a thin metal-skinned door. Not an actual steel door. If 22 LR is so great why doesn't the military use them. Why don't police carry them?

I've seen a 3/4" inch wooden plank holding a target up hit by 22 LR. It didn't go all the way through at 100 yards.

But I guess you're right? Any impending AWB should include the Ruger 10/22. I had a 30 round mag for it when I was a kid BTW.
The military does use the .22LR for certain work.

You can find plenty of videos of long range .22LR lethality demos, such as passing through animal carcasses.

They are certainly quite lethal at classroom distances, and readily available in high capacity semi-auto pistols, rifles, and 10 shot revolvers, 20+ shot bolt action and lever action rifles, etc.

Ban them.

Any justification for banning an AR-15 is a justification for banning the Ruger 10/22, imo. There's no way to ban one without banning the other unless you use some sort of twisted logic in your law. The rifles are identical in classroom lethality.
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Old 28th February 2018, 12:20 PM   #338
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Reagan was shot with a .22, as was Brady and at least one DC officer.

Watching the video of that assassination attempt should disabuse anyone of thinking a .22 is not a serious round.

Though stipulated that had Hinkckley been armed with a larger-caliber weapon, the carnage would have been much more severe.
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Old 28th February 2018, 12:21 PM   #339
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Originally Posted by Bob001 View Post
.... The rifle and the round are sold -- and bought -- as man-killers. That's the root of the problem. No hunter, no target shooter, nobody protecting his home needs an AR15.
Keep in mind that the modular design of the AR-15 platform is very easy to adapt to other calibers. I have .30 and .458 caliber AR-15's that are well suited for hunting. Any cartridge case that has a head .475 inches or under and an overall length of 2.26 inches or less is easily chambered in the AR-15 and can be magazine fed. The 50 BMG can be used in single shot versions of the AR-15.

The .223 is entirely adequate for small game. Service rifle competitors favor the AR-15 over the M-14 and other service rifles at ranges out to 600 yards. Longer than that and it is the more powerful rifle chambered in .308 Winchester and .300 WM that dominate.

So while it is easy to say that no one needs something, shooters want what they want. Claiming that the AR-15 does not ideally fulfill the needs of a target shooter or hunter is naïve.
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Old 28th February 2018, 12:25 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Thats a thin metal-skinned door. Not an actual steel door. If 22 LR is so great why doesn't the military use them. Why don't police carry them?

I've seen a 3/4" inch wooden plank holding a target up hit by 22 LR. It didn't go all the way through at 100 yards.

But I guess you're right? Any impending AWB should include the Ruger 10/22. I had a 30 round mag for it when I was a kid BTW.
I suspect a lot of current gun-owners who would get behind an AWB* would stop for a second when semi-auto .22's are included, as they realize, "Hey, I have one of those!"

Re: the .22LR and steel doors - I've seen them wadded up against old, rusty 55-gallon drums in the woods, fired from only a few yards away with barely a dent made, let alone penetration.


*My favorite is the kind who owns a handgun, such as the lady on NPR last week, saying nobody needs an assault weapon, and that all she does is take a pistol to the range from time to time. Even leaving Virginia Tech out of the equation, the vast majority of firearm deaths are from handguns like hers, not large, expensive rifles and shotguns. Cognitive dissonance is a helluva drug.

ETA:

Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Reagan was shot with a .22, as was Brady and at least one DC officer.

Watching the video of that assassination attempt should disabuse anyone of thinking a .22 is not a serious round.

Though stipulated that had Hinkckley been armed with a larger-caliber weapon, the carnage would have been much more severe.
Mossad apparently** used .22LR's for assassinations. Maybe they still do - they're not the most transparent bunch.




**The only cites I find for this are in gun/survivalist waters, FWIW.
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Old 28th February 2018, 12:26 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
My impression is that the stronger one's opinions about gun control, the less one knows about guns.
That's true for most topics as well.
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Old 28th February 2018, 12:28 PM   #342
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Originally Posted by Fast Eddie B View Post
Reagan was shot with a .22, as was Brady and at least one DC officer.

Watching the video of that assassination attempt should disabuse anyone of thinking a .22 is not a serious round.

Though stipulated that had Hinkckley been armed with a larger-caliber weapon, the carnage would have been much more severe.
Yeah, I've never thought to disabuse anyone of the notion that 22 LR isn't capable of being deadly, or causing serious wounds. Its just less likely to be deadly than almost any other cartridge out there except .25 ACP. Had Hinkley been using 5.56mm HW Bush becomes president much earlier than historically. The 22 round stopped about an inch from Reagan's heart BTW.

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Old 28th February 2018, 12:30 PM   #343
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
A CAR-15 with a foldable stock will fit in a backpack.
AR-15's (CAR-15) do not have folding stocks. It can have a telescoping stock which will reduce length by a few inches.

You might be thinking an AR-15 with a very short barrel or an AR-18 which has the operating spring/piston forward of the action instead of the AR-15's buffer/spring in a tube in the stock.
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Old 28th February 2018, 12:33 PM   #344
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
AR-15's (CAR-15) do not have folding stocks. It can have a telescoping stock which will reduce length by a few inches.

You might be thinking an AR-15 with a very short barrel or an AR-18 which has the operating spring/piston forward of the action instead of the AR-15's buffer/spring in a tube in the stock.
An actual Colt CAR-15 and you'd be correct. But a CAR-15 has become a generic term for any short barreled AR-15. You can put any stock you want on one with pretty basic knowledge. Even then, with a telescoping stock, you could, probably, fit one in a large backpack.

Last edited by lobosrul5; 28th February 2018 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 28th February 2018, 12:33 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
AR-15's (CAR-15) do not have folding stocks. It can have a telescoping stock which will reduce length by a few inches.

You might be thinking an AR-15 with a very short barrel or an AR-18 which has the operating spring/piston forward of the action instead of the AR-15's buffer/spring in a tube in the stock.
There are some AR-15 mods that use a folding stock. Can't check the links here ("Weapons" as a category is blocked at work), but I did a google for "CAR-15 folding stock" and found several links and photos.
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Old 28th February 2018, 12:34 PM   #346
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Well, at that point, security has already failed. Gunman don't "suddenly appear in a classroom" unless you've already done something wrong. It's not like they pull a rifle out of their backpack in the middle of class. Exterior doors should be locked between classes, at least the "only open from the inside" type door.

And the approach should be caught on security cameras.

The idea is he/she never gets inside the classroom with the gun.

Assuming he does "appear in a classroom", you lock all the other doors to start; leave open some routes for fleeing students/staff to escape away from the shooter. Lock them behind escapees.

No system works without training and drill, and plans can be set up beforehand.

Worst case-scenario, you don't lock down anything until the shooter is in an area by himself, then you lock down that spot.

I fail to see how this would do anything other than decrease casualty counts.
If you can keep a gunman completely out of a school then you don't need special trap lock doors inside.

Right now we seem to have troubles preventing them from entering school buildings.
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Old 28th February 2018, 12:46 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post



Mossad apparently** used .22LR's for assassinations. Maybe they still do - they're not the most transparent bunch.
I recall that in “Sword of Gideon”, when confronting conspirators of the Munich Olympic massacre, the agents carried a .22 with an empty chamber. Only on positive target confirmation could they chamber a round and complete their mission. Better to lose an agent due to the delay than to accidentally misidentify a target.

The movie “Munich” had one disturbing assassination scene that stuck with me, along those lines.
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Old 28th February 2018, 12:47 PM   #348
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Originally Posted by William Parcher View Post
If you can keep a gunman completely out of a school then you don't need special trap lock doors inside.
They aren't "special trap lock doors", but something that's a not-uncommon feature on most electronic lock systems.

In addition, it's part of something called "security in depth", which is a feature of any well-designed security system. You never assume your first measures will work, you back them up with other options. More options means a higher likelihood of one of those options being able to help.

Quote:
Right now we seem to have troubles preventing them from entering school buildings.
Yes, and that's probably a better place to start; better security and locking of external doors, and security cameras at least covering approaches to those areas.
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Old 28th February 2018, 12:48 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by Polaris View Post
Mossad apparently** used .22LR's for assassinations. Maybe they still do - they're not the most transparent bunch.
The Rugar MK II is one of the most accurate .22 pistols ever manufactured. Can't say about Mossad, but the US Navy Seals do use them...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruger_MK_II
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Old 28th February 2018, 12:54 PM   #350
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The .22 has a couple things going for it on assassinations (as I understand, I'm open to anyone with better data), both rely on it being smaller and lower-power than other rounds.

1. It will generally penetrate a skull at close range, but won't go out the other side, so in head shots it'll bounce around inside causing more damage. Not sure of the accuracy of this; it's plausible, but I haven't seen hard data.

2. Being a smaller round, with less powder, it's MUCH easier to silence...and thus go unnoticed. One can see how this might be important for assassinations or other stealth situation.
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Old 28th February 2018, 01:02 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
There are some AR-15 mods that use a folding stock. Can't check the links here ("Weapons" as a category is blocked at work), but I did a google for "CAR-15 folding stock" and found several links and photos.
So how is the buffer and spring folded? I think you're confusing the AR-15 direct impingement system with another gun that uses a piston or an ordinary ar-15 with a telescoping stock.
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Old 28th February 2018, 01:09 PM   #352
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Originally Posted by Ranb View Post
So how is the buffer and spring folded? I think you're confusing the AR-15 direct impingement system with another gun that uses a piston or an ordinary ar-15 with a telescoping stock.
https://www.google.com/search?q=AR-1...w=1680&bih=977

Like I said, I can't get beyond google results from here, but it looks like there's some interface that leaves the recoil spring in the stock and folds it back? Not sure exactly how it's engineered, but I can check when I get home if you can't find it from that.
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Old 28th February 2018, 01:12 PM   #353
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
https://www.google.com/search?q=AR-1...w=1680&bih=977

Like I said, I can't get beyond google results from here, but it looks like there's some interface that leaves the recoil spring in the stock and folds it back? Not sure exactly how it's engineered, but I can check when I get home if you can't find it from that.
I know someone used to market an AR-15 "pistol" before 1994. There was about a 3 inch long tube behind the upper receiver. Same concept I suppose.
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Old 28th February 2018, 01:17 PM   #354
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
I know someone used to market an AR-15 "pistol" before 1994. There was about a 3 inch long tube behind the upper receiver. Same concept I suppose.
Yeah, I saw one of those. Reminded me a lot of Han Solo's blaster from Star Wars
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Old 28th February 2018, 01:19 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Yeah, I saw one of those. Reminded me a lot of Han Solo's blaster from Star Wars
Bit of trivia, Han's blaster was actually a "broom-handled" Mauser with some Hollywood parts thrown on.
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Old 28th February 2018, 01:22 PM   #356
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Bit of trivia, Han's blaster was actually a "broom-handled" Mauser with some Hollywood parts thrown on.
Not only hollywood parts, one was a flash hider off a machine gun. Many of them were actual gun parts.
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Old 28th February 2018, 01:40 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
If somehow "Terry stops" and "civil forfeiture" have survived constitutionality checks then I really fail to see how confiscating someones firearms won't after they brag on the internet how many people they want to murder, or are declared legally insane (as two examples).

ETA: actually the civil forfeiture laws means there is precedent that "property" has no rights. Therefore property, including guns, can be taken based on mere suspicion. Its a pretty frickin dangerous precedent really.
Yeah, I reject appeals to civil forfeiture as an example of good rights protection.
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Old 28th February 2018, 01:42 PM   #358
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
Okay, so ~17% of the military budget

Still, it's going to need to be something along that route to make any immediate difference, anything else is going to take a lot of time. I still say it's a better solution that the proposed bans.

Even without bulletproofing and such, just installing electronic locks and giving staff radios would be a help, and do more, more immediately, than weapon bans (IMO). And doesn't necessarily have to be bulletproof, for that matter; the main purpose would be to keep them in one spot. The wire-mesh glass, for example, and stout doors (metal or solid hardwood) would serve the purpose, and do more to slow down a shooter than would smaller mags or using a pistol instead of a rifle.
An embargo on reporting the name of the killer and the details of the incident would probably have a quicker effect. And would be much cheaper to implement.
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Old 28th February 2018, 01:48 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
An embargo on reporting the name of the killer and the details of the incident would probably have a quicker effect. And would be much cheaper to implement.
Wouldn't that be a clear 1st amendment violation?
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Old 28th February 2018, 01:51 PM   #360
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Originally Posted by lobosrul5 View Post
Wouldn't that be a clear 1st amendment violation?
It would have to be voluntary and multilateral on the part of the networks.

It might have worked before facebook.
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