Right, Left and coddling

Jerrymander · 26th April 2018, 10:21 AM

Recently on Real Time, Jordan Peterson suggested to Maher and the panel that they be sensitive to Trump supporters and "hold out their hand" to them and understand them. This is coming from a person who tells activists to "clean their room".

Why is there this double-standard where reactionaries being nasty to "SJWs", trans-people and college students with dyed hair is considered bold and "telling it like it is" but liberals do something similar there's the inevitable "this is why Trump won"?

Why doesn't the average Trump voter expand their hand to understand the other side?

Fudbucker · 26th April 2018, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Jerrymander

Recently on Real Time, Jordan Peterson suggested to Maher and the panel that they be sensitive to Trump supporters and "hold out their hand" to them and understand them. This is coming from a person who tells activists to "clean their room".

Why is there this double-standard where reactionaries being nasty to "SJWs", trans-people and college students with dyed hair is considered bold and "telling it like it is" but liberals do something similar there's the inevitable "this is why Trump won"?

Why doesn't the average Trump voter expand their hand to understand the other side?

I frequent sites like this, HuffPo, Mediate, and Breitbart. The vitriol and stupidity in the comments section is a uniquely Republican (Trumpian) thing.

They live in a bubble of constant fear. Their "enemies" are nearly endless: liberals, uniparty, Rinos, deep state, Mexicans, Muslims, Feminists, Ms-13, Antifa, CIA, FBI, DOJ. It's hard to believe they can get out of bed in the morning.

There is no reasoning with a lot of these people. They're consumed by this stuff. They also buy into the most bizzare conspiracies.

kellyb · 26th April 2018, 10:37 AM

Originally Posted by Jerrymander

Why is there this double-standard

Because it's good strategy for us to be better than the other side. Just walking around insulting people is not an effective method for achieving our objectives.

kellyb · 26th April 2018, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

There is no reasoning with a lot of these people.

Some of them can be reasoned with, and they're the only ones we need to really worry about trying to persuade.

Fudbucker · 26th April 2018, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by kellyb

Some of them can be reasoned with, and they're the only ones we need to really worry about trying to persuade.

Sure. Daryl Davis befriends KKK members and gets them to give up their belief system. I think he's converted almost 100 of them. Very inspiring.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORp3q1Oaezw

JoeMorgue · 26th April 2018, 11:14 AM

Jesus Christ.

Fine whatever. If anyone, from either side, believes that a full 40% of the population has gotten so cartoonishly evil that's there's no going back then start acting like it. Just start shooting them on sight as the inhuman monsters you think they are. Just straight go full Civil War if things really and truly are this far past the point of no return.

Jerrymander · 26th April 2018, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Jesus Christ.

Fine whatever. If anyone, from either side, believes that a full 40% of the population has gotten so cartoonishly evil that's there's no going back then start acting like it. Just start shooting them on sight as the inhuman monsters you think they are. Just straight go full Civil War if things really and truly are this far past the point of no return.

Exhibit A.

Ziggurat · 26th April 2018, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by Jerrymander

Exhibit A.

What, precisely, do you think that's an exhibit for?

JoeMorgue · 26th April 2018, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

What, precisely, do you think that's an exhibit for?

I dared question the dogma of pure tribalism.

Jerrymander · 26th April 2018, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

What, precisely, do you think that's an exhibit for?

That criticizing Trump supporters is considered offensive.

Ziggurat · 26th April 2018, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by Jerrymander

That criticizing Trump supporters is considered offensive.

No. This is absolutely wrong. Read his post again. He doesn't take a stand for or against Trump or his supporters. His post was about extremism of any kind.

But by assuming partisanship where none existed, you've created a different exhibit A of your own.

Fudbucker · 26th April 2018, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Jesus Christ.

Fine whatever. If anyone, from either side, believes that a full 40% of the population has gotten so cartoonishly evil that's there's no going back then start acting like it. Just start shooting them on sight as the inhuman monsters you think they are. Just straight go full Civil War if things really and truly are this far past the point of no return.

I don't think it's 40%, and I don't think they're cartoonishly evil, but the ones that populate the comments sections on places like Breitbart are very frightened people. Like I said, their list of "enemies" is nearly endless. Their embrace of Alex Jones and their pet conspiracy theories IS cartoonish.

There are frightened people on the Left, of course, but their fears are rationally grounded and shared by many on the Right: Trump is unfit for office, and for the President to be unfit for the office is rightfully a scary thing.

BobTheCoward · 26th April 2018, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Jesus Christ.

Fine whatever. If anyone, from either side, believes that a full 40% of the population has gotten so cartoonishly evil that's there's no going back then start acting like it. Just start shooting them on sight as the inhuman monsters you think they are. Just straight go full Civil War if things really and truly are this far past the point of no return.

It is a big jump from being evil to needing to be killed.

baron · 26th April 2018, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by Jerrymander

That criticizing Trump supporters is considered offensive.

It's one of those threads, is it? Glad we established that early on.

And for the record, Jordan Peterson is one of the most balanced and thoughtful debaters around. Normally I'd imagine that someone advising we should take a measured view and not indulge in knee-jerk reactions would be seen as the voice of reason, but of course if there's any hint that the person is not a left winger then it's obviously an outrage about which a thread must be started.

Ziggurat · 26th April 2018, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

There are frightened people on the Left, of course, but their fears are rationally grounded

Do you honestly think there aren't irrational fears on the left? Because if you do, then either you haven't been paying attention, or you can't actually recognize irrationality on your side.

The_Animus · 26th April 2018, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Jesus Christ.

Fine whatever. If anyone, from either side, believes that a full 40% of the population has gotten so ~~cartoonishly evil~~ willfully ignorant and tribal that's there's no ~~going back~~ reasoning with them, then start acting like it. Just start ~~shooting~~ ignoring them on sight as the ~~inhuman monsters~~ waste of time you think they are. Just straight go full ~~Civil War~~ ignore or mocking them if things really and truly are this far past the point of no return.

FTFY

WilliamSeger · 26th April 2018, 12:02 PM

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue

Jesus Christ.

Fine whatever. If anyone, from either side, believes that a full 40% of the population has gotten so cartoonishly evil that's there's no going back then start acting like it. Just start shooting them on sight as the inhuman monsters you think they are. Just straight go full Civil War if things really and truly are this far past the point of no return.

Lighten up, Joe; Hillary herself said only 20% were deplorable, and she didn't even recommend locking them up, much less shooting them. She recommended outnumbering them at the polls. I'm With Her

mgidm86 · 26th April 2018, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

I don't think it's 40%, and I don't think they're cartoonishly evil, but the ones that populate the comments sections on places like Breitbart are very frightened people. Like I said, their list of "enemies" is nearly endless. Their embrace of Alex Jones and their pet conspiracy theories IS cartoonish.

There are frightened people on the Left, of course, but their fears are rationally grounded and shared by many on the Right: Trump is unfit for office, and for the President to be unfit for the office is rightfully a scary thing.

Oh of course the fears your side fears are rationally grounded! Everyone else - not so much. That's more than a little arrogant.

Statements like yours reinforce my belief that many liberals are so insistent that they are right that they can't believe anyone else can think differently. I see it a lot but saying it here sounds pretty stupid, especially without any evidence.

I don't think comments sections are the best places to gauge reactions to a news story, left or right.

Fudbucker · 26th April 2018, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Do you honestly think there aren't irrational fears on the left? Because if you do, then either you haven't been paying attention, or you can't actually recognize irrationality on your side.

Do we agree that Trump is unfit for the office? If no, stop reading, watch Hannity, and have more koolaid, or whatever you're taking that clouds the obvious trainwreck of a presidency in your mind.

If yes, how do you explain the fact his approval rating among Republicans is 82%? I think it's fear. Trump's whole shtick is xenophobia and paranoia. He's a victim of "fake news", the Swamp, the Deep State, the FBI, the DOJ, Mueller, Rosenstein, nevermind that his own appointees are running the FBI and DOJ.

I think Republicans eat that up because they're afraid. It's either that or they're total idiots. That's my theory, what's yours?

FenerFan · 26th April 2018, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by baron

It's one of those threads, is it? Glad we established that early on.

And for the record, Jordan Peterson is one of the most balanced and thoughtful debaters around. Normally I'd imagine that someone advising we should take a measured view and not indulge in knee-jerk reactions would be seen as the voice of reason, but of course if there's any hint that the person is not a left winger then it's obviously an outrage about which a thread must be started.

I agree with your feelings about Peterson. I don’t agree with everything he says, but it’s nice that a reasoned, thoughtful voice can be heard in popular media.
I think it’s very dismissive to simply say Peterson is the guy who tells activists to “clean their room.” It represents a way for people to take care of the responsibilities which are within their grasp so that “the domain of their experience will be more pristine and better put together than it is today,” as Peterson himself has stated. I don’t think it’s bad advice for young people who are politically active and want to improve things in their country. I think that the more order one has in their own life, the more they are able to positively effect those around them, their families and their communities.
As for the “double standard,” as someone who has always leaned more to the left politically, I think it’s more incumbent on those on the left to be the ones to “hold out their hand.” Those who push for more tolerance, inclusion, and sensitivity in government should personally display those attributes.

Ziggurat · 26th April 2018, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

Do we agree that Trump is unfit for the office?

That isn't a relevant question here. Fear of Trump's general unfitness is far from the only fear anyone on the left has, and plenty of other fears are decidedly irrational.

Jerrymander · 26th April 2018, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

No. This is absolutely wrong. Read his post again. He doesn't take a stand for or against Trump or his supporters. His post was about extremism of any kind.

But by assuming partisanship where none existed, you've created a different exhibit A of your own.

Yeah no partisanship. He accused others of calling Trump supporters "evil" when they did no such thing.

Fudbucker · 26th April 2018, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by mgidm86

Oh of course the fears your side fears are rationally grounded! Everyone else - not so much. That's more than a little arrogant.

I don't care, it's right. When, in your lifetime, have you ever seen members of the President's own party call him unfit to be President? If those NeverTrumpers and Republican Senators are right, then the fear of an unfit President occupying the office is a rational one, correct?

Quote:

Statements like yours reinforce my belief that many liberals are so insistent that they are right that they can't believe anyone else can think differently. I see it a lot but saying it here sounds pretty stupid, especially without any evidence.

Trump is manifestly unfit to be President. This is a view of liberals AND Republicans.

Quote:

I don't think comments sections are the best places to gauge reactions to a news story, left or right.

I think Trump is the best way to gauge his base. But we also have outlets his supporters flock to, like Breitbart. What they choose to cover and not cover, and what gets upvoted in the comments sections, is very revealing.

Fudbucker · 26th April 2018, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That isn't a relevant question here. Fear of Trump's general unfitness is far from the only fear anyone on the left has, and plenty of other fears are decidedly irrational.

Of course it's relevant, but you obviously don't want to go there. For some reason.

If we both agree the President is unfit, how do we then interpret the fact 80+% of Republicans support him? Let's hear your theory.

BobTheCoward · 26th April 2018, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

Of course it's relevant, but you obviously don't want to go there. For some reason.

If we both agree the President is unfit, how do we then interpret the fact 80+% of Republicans support him? Let's hear your theory.

That you two are wrong? Or that the opinion of two people here doesn't matter?

Mumbles · 26th April 2018, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by Jerrymander

Recently on Real Time, Jordan Peterson suggested to Maher and the panel that they be sensitive to Trump supporters and "hold out their hand" to them and understand them. This is coming from a person who tells activists to "clean their room".

Why is there this double-standard where reactionaries being nasty to "SJWs", trans-people and college students with dyed hair is considered bold and "telling it like it is" but liberals do something similar there's the inevitable "this is why Trump won"?

Why doesn't the average Trump voter expand their hand to understand the other side?

Frankly, the people I know who told me they voted for Dolt 45 are the same people who I eliminated from my list of potential friends long ago, for acts like nearly calling me a racial slur to my face. I understand them perfectly, and that's why I'm not reaching out to them.

Again, I have actual friends who voted for McMullin or Johnson, and they weren't too happy about it but saw Cheeto Benito for what he was from the start.

Now, the apparent second group consists of people who really just don't pay attention to politics at all. The people who swear that the head idiot has changed health care for the better, the folks that are shocked when their friends and family get deported, who are horrified by Dolt 45's tweets and immaturity, and so on. And as I've said before, I know very few of these, and have no idea how to reach them if their actual family and friends don't, except for hoping they learn when Dolt 45 harms them and their loved ones directly. Leopards Eating People's Faces Party and all that.

And yes, I'm sure that many people simply vote party line dem without thought as well. They're not the immediate problem.

And Jordan Peterson strikes me as the latest in a long line of "anti-SJW" grifters who makes tons of money by misconstruing what others are saying, shows little to no understanding of the most basic parts of society, and so forth. From lobsters to makeup to supposed suppression of "free speech", he pushes a lot of silliness, only he has a doctorate and uses larger words.

kellyb · 26th April 2018, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That isn't a relevant question here. Fear of Trump's general unfitness is far from the only fear anyone on the left has, and plenty of other fears are decidedly irrational.

What are the other widespread irrational fears the left has, in your opinion?

BobTheCoward · 26th April 2018, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by kellyb

What are the other widespread irrational fears the left has, in your opinion?

Vaccines

GMOs

Ziggurat · 26th April 2018, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by kellyb

What are the other widespread irrational fears the left has, in your opinion?

I said nothing about how widespread such fears are, since the reference to fears on the right was comments on a web page, which do nothing to establish their prevalence either. I merely refer to their existence, which is all Fudbucker can possibly claim to have established (though even that far from rigorously).

Do you still need me to give you examples, or are you willing to concede that they exist?

Ziggurat · 26th April 2018, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

Of course it's relevant

It's not relevant to my argument. Among other things, I don't need to classify fear of Trump's unfitness as irrational in order to establish that there are irrational fears on the left.

kellyb · 26th April 2018, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

Vaccines

GMOs

Conservative religious fanatics are just as anti-those-things as science-illiterate lefties.

kellyb · 26th April 2018, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

I said nothing about how widespread such fears are, since the reference to fears on the right was comments on a web page, which do nothing to establish their prevalence either. I merely refer to their existence, which is all Fudbucker can possibly claim to have established (though even that far from rigorously).

Do you still need me to give you examples, or are you willing to concede that they exist?

I'm going to say that stuff that makes it on infowars counts as "widespread."

I'm really curious what you think the leftwing equivalents are.

BobTheCoward · 26th April 2018, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by kellyb

Conservative religious fanatics are just as anti-those-things as science-illiterate lefties.

I'm glad there is no objection then to calling them widespread irrational fears of the left.

kellyb · 26th April 2018, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by BobTheCoward

I'm glad there is no objection then to calling them widespread irrational fears of the left.

Yes, science illiteracy is not strictly a rightwing problem.

Fudbucker · 26th April 2018, 02:03 PM

Intertesting study referenced in NYTimes article:

"Candidate preferences in 2016 reflected increasing anxiety among high-status groups rather than complaints about past treatment among low-status groups. Both growing domestic racial diversity and globalization contributed to a sense that white Americans are under siege by these engines of change."
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/26/o...tion%2Fopinion

ServiceSoon · 26th April 2018, 02:16 PM

Since November 2016, I've turned on the news everyday and found plenty of examples of irrational fears from the left.

Jerrymander · 26th April 2018, 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by FenerFan

As for the “double standard,” as someone who has always leaned more to the left politically, I think it’s more incumbent on those on the left to be the ones to “hold out their hand.” Those who push for more tolerance, inclusion, and sensitivity in government should personally display those attributes.

What should we be more tolerant of?

Silly Green Monkey · 26th April 2018, 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Fudbucker

They live in a bubble of constant fear. Their "enemies" are nearly endless: liberals, uniparty, Rinos, deep state, Mexicans, Muslims, Feminists, Ms-13, Antifa, CIA, FBI, DOJ. It's hard to believe they can get out of bed in the morning.

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Do you honestly think there aren't irrational fears on the left?

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

That isn't a relevant question here. Fear of Trump's general unfitness is far from the only fear anyone on the left has, and plenty of other fears are decidedly irrational.

Originally Posted by kellyb

What are the other widespread irrational fears the left has, in your opinion?

Originally Posted by ServiceSoon

Since November 2016, I've turned on the news everyday and found plenty of examples of irrational fears from the left.

Ziggurat has provided one 'fear' 'the left' has and cites "plenty" more that are also irrational. I'm curious what these plenty of enemies are, and will provide a gimme of 'conservatives'. What else?

Mycroft · 26th April 2018, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by kellyb

What are the other widespread irrational fears the left has, in your opinion?

Depleted uranium. White phosphorous. Nuclear power.

And GMO, I've never heard right-wingers whine about that.

BobTheCoward · 26th April 2018, 06:21 PM

It wasn't widespread but I definitely remember some liberals freaking out about bombing the moon.

26th April 2018, 10:21 AM	#1
Jerrymander Muse Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 624	Right, Left and coddling Recently on Real Time, Jordan Peterson suggested to Maher and the panel that they be sensitive to Trump supporters and "hold out their hand" to them and understand them. This is coming from a person who tells activists to "clean their room". Why is there this double-standard where reactionaries being nasty to "SJWs", trans-people and college students with dyed hair is considered bold and "telling it like it is" but liberals do something similar there's the inevitable "this is why Trump won"? Why doesn't the average Trump voter expand their hand to understand the other side?
Jerrymander Muse Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 624

26th April 2018, 10:28 AM	#2
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537	Originally Posted by Jerrymander Recently on Real Time, Jordan Peterson suggested to Maher and the panel that they be sensitive to Trump supporters and "hold out their hand" to them and understand them. This is coming from a person who tells activists to "clean their room". Why is there this double-standard where reactionaries being nasty to "SJWs", trans-people and college students with dyed hair is considered bold and "telling it like it is" but liberals do something similar there's the inevitable "this is why Trump won"? Why doesn't the average Trump voter expand their hand to understand the other side? I frequent sites like this, HuffPo, Mediate, and Breitbart. The vitriol and stupidity in the comments section is a uniquely Republican (Trumpian) thing. They live in a bubble of constant fear. Their "enemies" are nearly endless: liberals, uniparty, Rinos, deep state, Mexicans, Muslims, Feminists, Ms-13, Antifa, CIA, FBI, DOJ. It's hard to believe they can get out of bed in the morning. There is no reasoning with a lot of these people. They're consumed by this stuff. They also buy into the most bizzare conspiracies.
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537

26th April 2018, 10:37 AM	#3
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by Jerrymander Why is there this double-standard Because it's good strategy for us to be better than the other side. Just walking around insulting people is not an effective method for achieving our objectives.
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

26th April 2018, 10:39 AM	#4
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by Fudbucker There is no reasoning with a lot of these people. Some of them can be reasoned with, and they're the only ones we need to really worry about trying to persuade.
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

26th April 2018, 11:10 AM	#5
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537	Originally Posted by kellyb Some of them can be reasoned with, and they're the only ones we need to really worry about trying to persuade. Sure. Daryl Davis befriends KKK members and gets them to give up their belief system. I think he's converted almost 100 of them. Very inspiring. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORp3q1Oaezw
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537

26th April 2018, 11:14 AM	#6
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,099	Jesus Christ. Fine whatever. If anyone, from either side, believes that a full 40% of the population has gotten so cartoonishly evil that's there's no going back then start acting like it. Just start shooting them on sight as the inhuman monsters you think they are. Just straight go full Civil War if things really and truly are this far past the point of no return.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

26th April 2018, 11:16 AM	#7
Jerrymander Muse Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 624	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Jesus Christ. Fine whatever. If anyone, from either side, believes that a full 40% of the population has gotten so cartoonishly evil that's there's no going back then start acting like it. Just start shooting them on sight as the inhuman monsters you think they are. Just straight go full Civil War if things really and truly are this far past the point of no return. Exhibit A.
Jerrymander Muse Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 624

26th April 2018, 11:18 AM	#8
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,373	Originally Posted by Jerrymander Exhibit A. What, precisely, do you think that's an exhibit for?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

26th April 2018, 11:20 AM	#9
JoeMorgue Self Employed Remittance Man Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 43,099	Originally Posted by Ziggurat What, precisely, do you think that's an exhibit for? I dared question the dogma of pure tribalism.
	__________________ "If everyone in the room says water is wet and I say it's dry that makes me smart because at least I'm thinking for myself!" - The Proudly Wrong.

26th April 2018, 11:29 AM	#10
Jerrymander Muse Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 624	Originally Posted by Ziggurat What, precisely, do you think that's an exhibit for? That criticizing Trump supporters is considered offensive.
Jerrymander Muse Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 624

26th April 2018, 11:33 AM	#11
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,373	Originally Posted by Jerrymander That criticizing Trump supporters is considered offensive. No. This is absolutely wrong. Read his post again. He doesn't take a stand for or against Trump or his supporters. His post was about extremism of any kind. But by assuming partisanship where none existed, you've created a different exhibit A of your own.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

26th April 2018, 11:34 AM	#12
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Jesus Christ. Fine whatever. If anyone, from either side, believes that a full 40% of the population has gotten so cartoonishly evil that's there's no going back then start acting like it. Just start shooting them on sight as the inhuman monsters you think they are. Just straight go full Civil War if things really and truly are this far past the point of no return. I don't think it's 40%, and I don't think they're cartoonishly evil, but the ones that populate the comments sections on places like Breitbart are very frightened people. Like I said, their list of "enemies" is nearly endless. Their embrace of Alex Jones and their pet conspiracy theories IS cartoonish. There are frightened people on the Left, of course, but their fears are rationally grounded and shared by many on the Right: Trump is unfit for office, and for the President to be unfit for the office is rightfully a scary thing.
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537

26th April 2018, 11:34 AM	#13
BobTheCoward Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,789	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Jesus Christ. Fine whatever. If anyone, from either side, believes that a full 40% of the population has gotten so cartoonishly evil that's there's no going back then start acting like it. Just start shooting them on sight as the inhuman monsters you think they are. Just straight go full Civil War if things really and truly are this far past the point of no return. It is a big jump from being evil to needing to be killed.
BobTheCoward Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,789

26th April 2018, 11:36 AM	#14
baron Guest Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,627	Originally Posted by Jerrymander That criticizing Trump supporters is considered offensive. It's one of those threads, is it? Glad we established that early on. And for the record, Jordan Peterson is one of the most balanced and thoughtful debaters around. Normally I'd imagine that someone advising we should take a measured view and not indulge in knee-jerk reactions would be seen as the voice of reason, but of course if there's any hint that the person is not a left winger then it's obviously an outrage about which a thread must be started.
baron Guest Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 8,627

26th April 2018, 11:49 AM	#15
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,373	Originally Posted by Fudbucker There are frightened people on the Left, of course, but their fears are rationally grounded Do you honestly think there aren't irrational fears on the left? Because if you do, then either you haven't been paying attention, or you can't actually recognize irrationality on your side.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

26th April 2018, 11:58 AM	#16
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,354	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Jesus Christ. Fine whatever. If anyone, from either side, believes that a full 40% of the population has gotten so ~~cartoonishly evil~~ willfully ignorant and tribal that's there's no ~~going back~~ reasoning with them, then start acting like it. Just start ~~shooting~~ ignoring them on sight as the ~~inhuman monsters~~ waste of time you think they are. Just straight go full ~~Civil War~~ ignore or mocking them if things really and truly are this far past the point of no return. FTFY
The_Animus Illuminator Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 3,354	__________________ Don't feed the trolls. Just ignore them. Last edited by The_Animus; 26th April 2018 at 11:59 AM. Reason: spacing

26th April 2018, 12:02 PM	#17
WilliamSeger Philosopher Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 5,092	Originally Posted by JoeMorgue Jesus Christ. Fine whatever. If anyone, from either side, believes that a full 40% of the population has gotten so cartoonishly evil that's there's no going back then start acting like it. Just start shooting them on sight as the inhuman monsters you think they are. Just straight go full Civil War if things really and truly are this far past the point of no return. Lighten up, Joe; Hillary herself said only 20% were deplorable, and she didn't even recommend locking them up, much less shooting them. She recommended outnumbering them at the polls. I'm With Her

26th April 2018, 12:29 PM	#18
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,624	Originally Posted by Fudbucker I don't think it's 40%, and I don't think they're cartoonishly evil, but the ones that populate the comments sections on places like Breitbart are very frightened people. Like I said, their list of "enemies" is nearly endless. Their embrace of Alex Jones and their pet conspiracy theories IS cartoonish. There are frightened people on the Left, of course, but their fears are rationally grounded and shared by many on the Right: Trump is unfit for office, and for the President to be unfit for the office is rightfully a scary thing. Oh of course the fears your side fears are rationally grounded! Everyone else - not so much. That's more than a little arrogant. Statements like yours reinforce my belief that many liberals are so insistent that they are right that they can't believe anyone else can think differently. I see it a lot but saying it here sounds pretty stupid, especially without any evidence. I don't think comments sections are the best places to gauge reactions to a news story, left or right.
mgidm86 Philosopher Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 8,624	__________________ Why bother?

26th April 2018, 12:29 PM	#19
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Do you honestly think there aren't irrational fears on the left? Because if you do, then either you haven't been paying attention, or you can't actually recognize irrationality on your side. Do we agree that Trump is unfit for the office? If no, stop reading, watch Hannity, and have more koolaid, or whatever you're taking that clouds the obvious trainwreck of a presidency in your mind. If yes, how do you explain the fact his approval rating among Republicans is 82%? I think it's fear. Trump's whole shtick is xenophobia and paranoia. He's a victim of "fake news", the Swamp, the Deep State, the FBI, the DOJ, Mueller, Rosenstein, nevermind that his own appointees are running the FBI and DOJ. I think Republicans eat that up because they're afraid. It's either that or they're total idiots. That's my theory, what's yours?
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537

26th April 2018, 12:32 PM	#20
FenerFan Illuminator Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Istanbul...again Posts: 3,103	Originally Posted by baron It's one of those threads, is it? Glad we established that early on. And for the record, Jordan Peterson is one of the most balanced and thoughtful debaters around. Normally I'd imagine that someone advising we should take a measured view and not indulge in knee-jerk reactions would be seen as the voice of reason, but of course if there's any hint that the person is not a left winger then it's obviously an outrage about which a thread must be started. I agree with your feelings about Peterson. I don’t agree with everything he says, but it’s nice that a reasoned, thoughtful voice can be heard in popular media. I think it’s very dismissive to simply say Peterson is the guy who tells activists to “clean their room.” It represents a way for people to take care of the responsibilities which are within their grasp so that “the domain of their experience will be more pristine and better put together than it is today,” as Peterson himself has stated. I don’t think it’s bad advice for young people who are politically active and want to improve things in their country. I think that the more order one has in their own life, the more they are able to positively effect those around them, their families and their communities. As for the “double standard,” as someone who has always leaned more to the left politically, I think it’s more incumbent on those on the left to be the ones to “hold out their hand.” Those who push for more tolerance, inclusion, and sensitivity in government should personally display those attributes.
	__________________ "... no man wants his obituary to mention a pig." --phiwum “Limp Bizkit did nothing wrong.”- Chalkman

26th April 2018, 12:33 PM	#21
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,373	Originally Posted by Fudbucker Do we agree that Trump is unfit for the office? That isn't a relevant question here. Fear of Trump's general unfitness is far from the only fear anyone on the left has, and plenty of other fears are decidedly irrational.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

26th April 2018, 12:40 PM	#22
Jerrymander Muse Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 624	Originally Posted by Ziggurat No. This is absolutely wrong. Read his post again. He doesn't take a stand for or against Trump or his supporters. His post was about extremism of any kind. But by assuming partisanship where none existed, you've created a different exhibit A of your own. Yeah no partisanship. He accused others of calling Trump supporters "evil" when they did no such thing.
Jerrymander Muse Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 624

26th April 2018, 12:40 PM	#23
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537	Originally Posted by mgidm86 Oh of course the fears your side fears are rationally grounded! Everyone else - not so much. That's more than a little arrogant. I don't care, it's right. When, in your lifetime, have you ever seen members of the President's own party call him unfit to be President? If those NeverTrumpers and Republican Senators are right, then the fear of an unfit President occupying the office is a rational one, correct? Quote: Statements like yours reinforce my belief that many liberals are so insistent that they are right that they can't believe anyone else can think differently. I see it a lot but saying it here sounds pretty stupid, especially without any evidence. Trump is manifestly unfit to be President. This is a view of liberals AND Republicans. Quote: I don't think comments sections are the best places to gauge reactions to a news story, left or right. I think Trump is the best way to gauge his base. But we also have outlets his supporters flock to, like Breitbart. What they choose to cover and not cover, and what gets upvoted in the comments sections, is very revealing.
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537

26th April 2018, 12:43 PM	#24
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537	Originally Posted by Ziggurat That isn't a relevant question here. Fear of Trump's general unfitness is far from the only fear anyone on the left has, and plenty of other fears are decidedly irrational. Of course it's relevant, but you obviously don't want to go there. For some reason. If we both agree the President is unfit, how do we then interpret the fact 80+% of Republicans support him? Let's hear your theory.
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537

26th April 2018, 12:46 PM	#25
BobTheCoward Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,789	Originally Posted by Fudbucker Of course it's relevant, but you obviously don't want to go there. For some reason. If we both agree the President is unfit, how do we then interpret the fact 80+% of Republicans support him? Let's hear your theory. That you two are wrong? Or that the opinion of two people here doesn't matter?
BobTheCoward Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,789

26th April 2018, 12:57 PM	#26
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,726	Originally Posted by Jerrymander Recently on Real Time, Jordan Peterson suggested to Maher and the panel that they be sensitive to Trump supporters and "hold out their hand" to them and understand them. This is coming from a person who tells activists to "clean their room". Why is there this double-standard where reactionaries being nasty to "SJWs", trans-people and college students with dyed hair is considered bold and "telling it like it is" but liberals do something similar there's the inevitable "this is why Trump won"? Why doesn't the average Trump voter expand their hand to understand the other side? Frankly, the people I know who told me they voted for Dolt 45 are the same people who I eliminated from my list of potential friends long ago, for acts like nearly calling me a racial slur to my face. I understand them perfectly, and that's why I'm not reaching out to them. Again, I have actual friends who voted for McMullin or Johnson, and they weren't too happy about it but saw Cheeto Benito for what he was from the start. Now, the apparent second group consists of people who really just don't pay attention to politics at all. The people who swear that the head idiot has changed health care for the better, the folks that are shocked when their friends and family get deported, who are horrified by Dolt 45's tweets and immaturity, and so on. And as I've said before, I know very few of these, and have no idea how to reach them if their actual family and friends don't, except for hoping they learn when Dolt 45 harms them and their loved ones directly. Leopards Eating People's Faces Party and all that. And yes, I'm sure that many people simply vote party line dem without thought as well. They're not the immediate problem. And Jordan Peterson strikes me as the latest in a long line of "anti-SJW" grifters who makes tons of money by misconstruing what others are saying, shows little to no understanding of the most basic parts of society, and so forth. From lobsters to makeup to supposed suppression of "free speech", he pushes a lot of silliness, only he has a doctorate and uses larger words.
Mumbles Philosopher Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 8,726

26th April 2018, 01:11 PM	#27
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by Ziggurat That isn't a relevant question here. Fear of Trump's general unfitness is far from the only fear anyone on the left has, and plenty of other fears are decidedly irrational. What are the other widespread irrational fears the left has, in your opinion?
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

26th April 2018, 01:21 PM	#28
BobTheCoward Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,789	Originally Posted by kellyb What are the other widespread irrational fears the left has, in your opinion? Vaccines GMOs
BobTheCoward Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,789	Last edited by BobTheCoward; 26th April 2018 at 01:24 PM.

26th April 2018, 01:26 PM	#29
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,373	Originally Posted by kellyb What are the other widespread irrational fears the left has, in your opinion? I said nothing about how widespread such fears are, since the reference to fears on the right was comments on a web page, which do nothing to establish their prevalence either. I merely refer to their existence, which is all Fudbucker can possibly claim to have established (though even that far from rigorously). Do you still need me to give you examples, or are you willing to concede that they exist?
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

26th April 2018, 01:29 PM	#30
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,373	Originally Posted by Fudbucker Of course it's relevant It's not relevant to my argument. Among other things, I don't need to classify fear of Trump's unfitness as irrational in order to establish that there are irrational fears on the left.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

26th April 2018, 01:48 PM	#31
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward Vaccines GMOs Conservative religious fanatics are just as anti-those-things as science-illiterate lefties.
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

26th April 2018, 01:51 PM	#32
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by Ziggurat I said nothing about how widespread such fears are, since the reference to fears on the right was comments on a web page, which do nothing to establish their prevalence either. I merely refer to their existence, which is all Fudbucker can possibly claim to have established (though even that far from rigorously). Do you still need me to give you examples, or are you willing to concede that they exist? I'm going to say that stuff that makes it on infowars counts as "widespread." I'm really curious what you think the leftwing equivalents are.
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

26th April 2018, 01:53 PM	#33
BobTheCoward Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,789	Originally Posted by kellyb Conservative religious fanatics are just as anti-those-things as science-illiterate lefties. I'm glad there is no objection then to calling them widespread irrational fears of the left.
BobTheCoward Banned Join Date: Nov 2010 Posts: 22,789

26th April 2018, 01:55 PM	#34
kellyb Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 12,632	Originally Posted by BobTheCoward I'm glad there is no objection then to calling them widespread irrational fears of the left. Yes, science illiteracy is not strictly a rightwing problem.
	__________________ "We are enjoined, no matter how uncomfortable it might be, to consider ourselves and our cultural institutions scientifically — not to accept uncritically whatever we’re told; to surmount as best we can our hopes, conceits, and unexamined beliefs; to view ourselves as we really are." - Carl Sagan

26th April 2018, 02:03 PM	#35
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537	Intertesting study referenced in NYTimes article: "Candidate preferences in 2016 reflected increasing anxiety among high-status groups rather than complaints about past treatment among low-status groups. Both growing domestic racial diversity and globalization contributed to a sense that white Americans are under siege by these engines of change." https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/26/o...tion%2Fopinion
Fudbucker Philosopher Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 8,537