Jordan Peterson's all-meat diet - Page 2

xterra · 31st August 2018, 01:27 PM

An almost-all-meat diet is nothing new:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilhja..._meat_and_fish

p0lka · 31st August 2018, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

Just because you need exogenous insulin does not mean you are T1.

I agree,

Originally Posted by casebro

You are probably a T2 that needs more insulin due to insulin resistance.

Probably type2 yes, after all most diabetics are type 2, but I won in that respect and got the type1 reward, I even have other autoimmune stuff to prove it

Originally Posted by casebro

And the internal insulin resistance causes hyper-insulinemia, gobs of insulin circulating. And those gobs of insulin act like growth hormone, causing oodles of soft tissue problems. Tendinitis, trigger fingers, carpal tunnel, osteoarthritis too.

If you are T2, low carb and enough exercise and you won't need no more insulin. At all.

I'm still concerned about my clicky feet.

Dr. Keith · 31st August 2018, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

I'm still concerned about my clicky feet.

I have clicky joints and I'm ~~on a low carb diet~~ trying to be on a low carb diet. I don't think they are related. I think one is about me being an out of shape old man and the other is about my joints clicking.

But I am not really a doctor. I would talk to a real doctor if the clicky is bugging you.

RecoveringYuppy · 31st August 2018, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by angrysoba

What disease is it? I remember him saying that both he and his daughter have an "autoimmune disease" but which one is it?

I have (had?) an autoimmune disease - sarcoidosis. Does he and his daughter have that? Or maybe they both have AIDS? They are not specific, so how is anyone to judge whether this diet is useful for them as well?

Just FYI. AIDS isn't an autoimmune disorder. Autoimmune diseases are where your own immune system attacks otherwise healthy parts of your body. In AIDS you immune system stops defending you.

casebro · 31st August 2018, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by p0lka

I agree,

Probably type2 yes, after all most diabetics are type 2, but I won in that respect and got the type1 reward, I even have other autoimmune stuff to prove it

I'm still concerned about my clicky feet.

Auto immune stuff eats joints too.

And while Insulin Resistance goes hand in hand with T2, it's a common genetic problem. No reason you can't have both T1 and the genes for IR.

Marcus · 31st August 2018, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

Auto immune stuff eats joints too.

And while Insulin Resistance goes hand in hand with T2, it's a common genetic problem. No reason you can't have both T1 and the genes for IR.

It's a fairly recent development(recent decades) that it has been realized that Type 1's can also develop insulin resistance to their exogenous insulin. It's now pretty common for Type 1's to Take metformin.

Low carb is proving very valuable for T1's, not just for reducing insulin intake but for reducing spikes (increasing time spent in range). Even now in the age of pumps and CGM's , it's not always easy to maintain a good A1c while also avoiding hypos.

casebro · 2nd September 2018, 06:29 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

It's a fairly recent development(recent decades) that it has been realized that Type 1's can also develop insulin resistance to their exogenous insulin. ......

Except for the "exogenous" part. Modern insulins are recombinant HUMAN insulin. The resistance is also ti their endogenous insulin (if they have any).

And it is this genetic insulin resistance (IRS-1 gene) that raises insulin levels so high it acts like a growth hormone. Grows thicker artery walls, causing arteriosclerosis. And poor peripheral circulation. And also tendon sheaths- carpal tunnel and trigger fingers. Bad discs too. And guess how Statins really work? They lower insulin resistance.

The bad IRS-1 gene is in 40% of Caucasians, 50% of Africans. Death rate from heart attacks- 40% for Caucasians, 50% for Africans. Coincidence?

casebro · 2nd September 2018, 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

It's a fairly recent development(recent decades) that it has been realized that Type 1's can also develop insulin resistance to their exogenous insulin. It's now pretty common for Type 1's to Take metformin.

Low carb is proving very valuable for T1's, not just for reducing insulin intake but for reducing spikes (increasing time spent in range). Even now in the age of pumps and CGM's , it's not always easy to maintain a good A1c while also avoiding hypos.

Hmm, does metformin lower resistance directly, or does it lower sugars and the body lowers insulin levels? Now, wait... T1s have no ability to lower insulin since they don't make any to begin with.

I've tried Metformin a couple times. For me it was 'Weight loss via Diarrhea'. I eagerly await a "lowers insulin resistance" pill/.

Marcus · 2nd September 2018, 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

Hmm, does metformin lower resistance directly, or does it lower sugars and the body lowers insulin levels? Now, wait... T1s have no ability to lower insulin since they don't make any to begin with.

I've tried Metformin a couple times. For me it was 'Weight loss via Diarrhea'. I eagerly await a "lowers insulin resistance" pill/.

Supposedly Metformin works by lowering insulin resistance,( which is of course the big issue for T2's), and also by discouraging your liver from giving you those glucose boluses, most often expressed as "dawn phenomenon". Sometime T1's develop resistance to the insulin they are taking though, in these cases they may also take Met. Most T1's don't have any insulin resistance though, so don't take Met.

I'm T2 myself and love the Met. If you ever get the urge to try it again keep in mind that those side effects go away after a few months for a majority of people.

Ziggurat · 2nd September 2018, 07:22 AM

Originally Posted by casebro

I eagerly await a "lowers insulin resistance" pill/.

It's not a pill, exactly...

casebro · 2nd September 2018, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

Supposedly Metformin works by lowering insulin resistance,( which is of course the big issue for T2's), and also by discouraging your liver from giving you those glucose boluses, most often expressed as "dawn phenomenon". Sometime T1's develop resistance to the insulin they are taking though, in these cases they may also take Met. Most T1's don't have any insulin resistance though, so don't take Met.

I'm T2 myself and love the Met. If you ever get the urge to try it again keep in mind that those side effects go away after a few months for a majority of people.

The REAL problem is not that "lowering insulin resistance,( which is of course the big issue for T2's),". The real deal is that Insulin Resistance is the culprit for 40% of people, even if it is not bad enough to cause diabetes. Lowering IR enough that your diabetes is solved in not good enough. Read about "pseudo acromegaly".

And just a few months of ******** my pants? Really?

No, we need to lower IR without messing with our liver function. Check out how the IRS gene defect lowers IGF levels, and that boosting IGF lowers sugar .

My IGF is 9th percentile. Too bad so many lab tests use "5-90% is the normal range", not subjective studies of morbidity.

Marcus · 2nd September 2018, 10:31 AM

By all means find a cure for insulin resistance, you'll get no argument from me.

I think you have the wrong idea about Metformin though. It is extremely beneficial for the health of everyone who takes it, and not just diabetics. Over the decades the life extending properties of Metformin have been noticed, so much so the it is the first drug ever approved by the FDA for life extension studies in humans. http://www.lifeextension.com/magazin...proval/page-01

Personally I never "**** my pants" when I started taking Met, I had occasional diarrhea for a couple weeks.

Ziggurat · 2nd September 2018, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Marcus

I think you have the wrong idea about Metformin though. It is extremely beneficial for the health of everyone who takes it, and not just diabetics.

Lots of people may well benefit from it, but given its rather serious side effects (well beyond diarrhea), it would be quite extraordinary if there was nobody taking it who shouldn't be.

For example, metformin interferes with androgen receptors. This makes it more difficult to maintain, let alone build, muscle mass. But building muscle is one of the best ways to increase insulin sensitivity, and it has a bunch of other health benefits as well (increased bone density, better balance, protein reserves against health problems, etc). The loss of muscle mass can compound a lot of health problems, including those from diabetes.

Marcus · 2nd September 2018, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Lots of people may well benefit from it, but given its rather serious side effects (well beyond diarrhea), it would be quite extraordinary if there was nobody taking it who shouldn't be.

For example, metformin interferes with androgen receptors. This makes it more difficult to maintain, let alone build, muscle mass. But building muscle is one of the best ways to increase insulin sensitivity, and it has a bunch of other health benefits as well (increased bone density, better balance, protein reserves against health problems, etc). The loss of muscle mass can compound a lot of health problems, including those from diabetes.

Interesting. I haven't heard of this side effect. A brief bit of googleing shows this effect preventing prostate cancer, but I'm not seeing where it interferes with muscle mass, do you have a link? I'm not doubting you, I'm just interested to read about it.

There are conditions where Metformin use is contraindicated, in particular kidney disease. Anyone with a GFR <90 should not use it.

Should it be used by the general public for the purpose of life extension? That is yet to be determined, it's what the trials are all about.

Ziggurat · 2nd September 2018, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by Marcus

Interesting. I haven't heard of this side effect. A brief bit of googleing shows this effect preventing prostate cancer, but I'm not seeing where it interferes with muscle mass, do you have a link? I'm not doubting you, I'm just interested to read about it.

For example, metformin can decrease testosterone levels:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11707532

I don't think that's the only way it can interfere with muscle growth, though. It doesn't make it impossible to grow muscle, people can and do get stronger on metformin, but it can make it harder. The trade off may well be worth it for a lot of diabetics, and for people who are sedentary that might not make much difference, but you probably shouldn't be taking it if you don't have a compelling reason to.

casebro · 2nd September 2018, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

For example, metformin can decrease testosterone levels:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11707532

I don't think that's the only way it can interfere with muscle growth, though. It doesn't make it impossible to grow muscle, people can and do get stronger on metformin, but it can make it harder. The trade off may well be worth it for a lot of diabetics, and for people who are sedentary that might not make much difference, but you probably shouldn't be taking it if you don't have a compelling reason to.

Hormones is complicated. That defective IRS gene I speak of is Insulin Receptor Substrate gene. The substrate is also used to make the Growth Hormone Receptor. The GHR triggers the liver to make the Insulin Like Growth Factor, IGF. So, fixing the IR will also mess with the IGF system.

But more likely the hormonal side effects of metformin are caused by the lowering of IR,which would lower the body's need to put out so much insulin, and since insulin acts like IGF, it is as if the body has less IGF for growth and repair. Ans since IGF/Insulin riggers the output of other hormnone, oops, change one butterfly in China and you get hurricanes in Florida.

Insulin activates 10 genes that IGF does not. IGF activates 27 genes that Insulin does not. They have overlap, but they are not identical in action. And since the IRS defect makes bad receptors for both,....

Minoosh · 3rd September 2018, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Dr. Keith

I know I feel much better, physically and mentally, if I shoot for less than 20g crabs and all of that from green leafy vegetables. The first week or two may suck, but once your body adapts it really feels great.

I looked up the ready-made Hormel Roast beef au jus. It's 640 calories for the container but there's sugar added, so that "meat" comes to 15 g carbs.

Does the 20g include dietary fiber?

Skeptical Greg · 3rd September 2018, 01:06 PM

Not speaking for Dr. Kieth, but most people looking to minimize their 'carbs' only count net carbs. Total minus fiber..

There is no fiber listed for the Roast beef au jus..

The 5 g of sugar in a 5oz serving apparently comes from added sugar in the form of dextrose.

When I look at 5oz roast chuck in my Cronometer app, is says " 354 calories and 0 net carbs ".

Minoosh · 3rd September 2018, 01:20 PM

I do wonder at times how we ended up with cereal, toast and orange juice as a typical breakfast. When I had bagels for breakfast I was hungry all day; did better with a handful of mixed nuts.

I don't think all-meat would work for me, but I am interested in strictly limiting carbs for a couple of weeks for the mood benefits.

Mom turns 94 this month and I don't want to experiment much with her food. She can have my English muffin I guess

, I'll just eat the butter!

What about just plain old fasting? Does that also favor fat burning or do you just burn muscle? I have adequate adipose reserves.

William Parcher · 3rd September 2018, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

I do wonder at times how we ended up with cereal, toast and orange juice as a typical breakfast.

I'm unaware of American breakfasts that include toast with cereal (in milk).

GlennB · 3rd September 2018, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

What about just plain old fasting? Does that also favor fat burning or do you just burn muscle? I have adequate adipose reserves.

Muscle is the last to go when fasting/starvation is in play.

casebro · 3rd September 2018, 02:58 PM

The UKPDS study showed that it was worthless for diabetics to try to maintain 'normal' A1C levels. Seems the savings in long term costs did not even pay for the extra meds. So now they are happy with my 7.1 A1C. Which makes me think that most of the side effects of diabetes are not caused by high sugars, but by the high insulin levels. Insulin Resistance is the culprit, high sugar is merely a symptom.

Minoosh · 3rd September 2018, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by William Parcher

I'm unaware of American breakfasts that include toast with cereal (in milk).

Well, I wouldn't eat toast and cereal together but I love me some not-from-concentrate OJ. The milk helps, but kind of a lot of carbs.

I'm *not* sold on low-carb diets, they strike me as an over-marketed gimmick. Same with gluten-free. But there is something about bread that makes me want more bread.

Minoosh · 3rd September 2018, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by GlennB

Muscle is the last to go when fasting/starvation is in play.

Seriously? Scientifically?

I never understood diet instructions that said, "Don't skip meals," because it's kind of worked for me. I'm hungrier on the days I eat breakfast. I get a lot of cardio and it doesn't seem to need food to work (except swimming).

Belz... · 3rd September 2018, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy

That does explain Justin Bieber.

And Céline Dion.

Minoosh · 3rd September 2018, 04:56 PM

All-meat just doesn't seem like it would have been a good adaptation for hunters & gatherers. Maybe they ate a lot of bugs. Are bugs meat?

luchog · 7th September 2018, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by lomiller

Diets consisting primarily of meat can work provided there is sufficient fat in them. Inuit diets included blubber to add both fat and vitamin C. Without enough fat in them you’d loose weight and suffer a number of other fairly serious problems.

The problem with this is that it won't work the same for non-Inuit peoples. Inuit people have a specific genetic mutation that allows them to be healthier on their diet. It's the mutation which allows them to adapt to the diet, not the diet itself, that is responsible for their health.

It is not, as many woo diet advocates claim, a ketogenic diet. The processing of meat is enabled by a liver that is considerably larger than most other populations, and more frequent urination to purge the byproducts of their diet.

More importantly, they eat raw meat, which means that they get much of their dietary calorie intake not from fat or protein, but from glycogen stores in the meat and fat.

And the Inuit diet is not exclusively meat and fish. They also eat vegetable matter, mostly berries, certain wild herbs and grasses, and various tubers (often by raiding mouse food caches). Not a lot, but enough to provide the few nutrients they cannot get from meat.

Originally Posted by Minoosh

All-meat just doesn't seem like it would have been a good adaptation for hunters & gatherers. Maybe they ate a lot of bugs. Are bugs meat?

An average hunter-gatherer diet isn't all that high in meat, certainly not all-meat. There are a lot of fruits, vegetables (particularly tubers), and yeah, bugs too for some of them (fat-rich grubs and locusts most commonly, although some far-eastern cuisines are fond of ant's eggs too).

William Parcher · 7th September 2018, 01:03 PM

Inuit also eat seaweed (macroalgae) which is a great food.

Dr. Keith · 7th September 2018, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by Minoosh

I looked up the ready-made Hormel Roast beef au jus. It's 640 calories for the container but there's sugar added, so that "meat" comes to 15 g carbs.

Does the 20g include dietary fiber?

Finding prepared foods without added sugar is very difficult. I tend to prepare my own meat as much as possible to avoid sauces that will have more sugar in them than I want.

I count net carbs as mentioned by Skeptical Greg. Total carbs minus fiber. Sometimes I will indulge in a sweet that is made with sugar alcohols, but I try not to make that a habit.

Leafy green veggies are fairly low, tomatoes and berries are bit higher, citrus fruits and ground veggies are off the menu for me. And while I try to keep it under 20, I more often land between twenty and fifty. I'm not the measuring type so I can't be 100% confident in that claim either.

Orphia Nay · 7th September 2018, 11:58 PM

I lost 80 lb (35 kg) and have kept it off two and a half years.

Everybody thinks you need to eat according to a gimmick to lose weight.

My gimmick is to eat the food I love in moderation and do an exercise I enjoy.

The old, "eat less, move more" that people hate to hear and won't get you any patreons.

Roboramma · 8th September 2018, 12:04 AM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

I lost 80 lb (35 kg) and have kept it off two and a half years.

Everybody thinks you need to eat according to a gimmick to lose weight.

My gimmick was to eat the food I love in moderation and do an exercise I enjoy.

The old, "eat less, move more" that people hate to hear and won't get you any patreons.

Well, I have no idea if her diet is responsible for her wellness, but the motivation for her change in diet wasn't losing weight but several symptoms including:

- Arthritis
- Some sort of skin problem
- Depression
- Nausea/diarrhoea

Supposedly all of these things cleared up with her diet change. No idea how honest she's being able that, although I doubt she's lying about the hip replacement.

I think what you've done is amazing and agree with what you say, I just think it doesn't necessarily apply to this girl. Though it may apply to those who are looking to her for answers.

Orphia Nay · 8th September 2018, 12:21 AM

Cheers, Roboramma. Wasn't thinking of the girl.

With regards to her, fame is a vitalising placebo. I'm sure she thinks she feels better.

Plus, her ailments are the sort of things that can clear up of their own accord, or go in phases.

If she ate more bony fish (herring, sardines) that might improve calcium levels and osteoarthritis, but I haven't seen what sorts of meat she eats and you can do that and still eat a balanced diet.

Ziggurat · 8th September 2018, 05:59 AM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

The old, "eat less, move more" that people hate to hear and won't get you any patreons.

YouTube Video This video is not hosted by the ISF. The ISF can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website.

I AGREE

Skeptical Greg · 8th September 2018, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Orphia Nay

Cheers, Roboramma. Wasn't thinking of the girl.

With regards to her, fame is a vitalising placebo. I'm sure she thinks she feels better.

Plus, her ailments are the sort of things that can clear up of their own accord, or go in phases.

If she ate more bony fish (herring, sardines) that might improve calcium levels and osteoarthritis, but I haven't seen what sorts of meat she eats and you can do that and still eat a balanced diet.

That's a strange comment..
Can one think they feel better, without actually feeling better?

Also, getting more calcium does not improve bone health in the absence of otherwise good nutrition. Many elements of
the standard American diet ( SAD ) are calcium depleting. in that it interferes with absorption.

casebro · 8th September 2018, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

That's a strange comment..
Can one think they feel better, without actually feeling better?

Also, getting more calcium does not improve bone health in the absence of otherwise good nutrition. Many elements of
the standard American diet ( SAD ) are calcium depleting. in that it interferes with absorption.

Absorption is only a part of calcium metabolism. That is why giving calcium supplements doesn't help osteoporotics. So, many if us have calcium in the wrong places. Like arteries, heart valves, tendons, .... Our SAD diet certainly hasn't depleted our calcium.

Skeptical Greg · 8th September 2018, 02:33 PM

Not the available stores, anyway..

It is being removed from your bones to be deposited in those other places..

casebro · 8th September 2018, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg

Not the available stores, anyway..

It is being removed from your bones to be deposited in those other places..

I knew that. It shows in xrays of my cervical vertebra. It's called "scalloped vertebra".

How to stop/fix?

There is a lot more to insulin resistance than diabetes.

Skeptical Greg · 8th September 2018, 03:46 PM

Low carb diet might be a good start..

Ziggurat · 8th September 2018, 05:07 PM

Originally Posted by casebro

I knew that. It shows in xrays of my cervical vertebra. It's called "scalloped vertebra".

How to stop/fix?

There is a lot more to insulin resistance than diabetes.

Weightlifting. Stress produces adaptation. Deadlifts, performed correctly, are one of the best things you can do to protect your back.

casebro · 8th September 2018, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Ziggurat

Weightlifting. Stress produces adaptation. Deadlifts, performed correctly, are one of the best things you can do to protect your back.

cervical = neck

31st August 2018, 01:27 PM	#41
xterra So far, so good... Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: On the outskirts of Nowhere; the middle was too crowded Posts: 3,972	An almost-all-meat diet is nothing new: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilhja..._meat_and_fish
	__________________ Over we go....

31st August 2018, 02:21 PM	#43
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 25,551	Originally Posted by p0lka I'm still concerned about my clicky feet. I have clicky joints and I'm ~~on a low carb diet~~ trying to be on a low carb diet. I don't think they are related. I think one is about me being an out of shape old man and the other is about my joints clicking. But I am not really a doctor. I would talk to a real doctor if the clicky is bugging you.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

31st August 2018, 03:18 PM	#45
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 19,709	Originally Posted by p0lka I agree, Probably type2 yes, after all most diabetics are type 2, but I won in that respect and got the type1 reward, I even have other autoimmune stuff to prove it I'm still concerned about my clicky feet. Auto immune stuff eats joints too. And while Insulin Resistance goes hand in hand with T2, it's a common genetic problem. No reason you can't have both T1 and the genes for IR.
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

31st August 2018, 04:14 PM	#46
Marcus Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 3,640	Originally Posted by casebro Auto immune stuff eats joints too. And while Insulin Resistance goes hand in hand with T2, it's a common genetic problem. No reason you can't have both T1 and the genes for IR. It's a fairly recent development(recent decades) that it has been realized that Type 1's can also develop insulin resistance to their exogenous insulin. It's now pretty common for Type 1's to Take metformin. Low carb is proving very valuable for T1's, not just for reducing insulin intake but for reducing spikes (increasing time spent in range). Even now in the age of pumps and CGM's , it's not always easy to maintain a good A1c while also avoiding hypos.
Marcus Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 3,640

2nd September 2018, 06:29 AM	#47
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 19,709	Originally Posted by Marcus It's a fairly recent development(recent decades) that it has been realized that Type 1's can also develop insulin resistance to their exogenous insulin. ...... Except for the "exogenous" part. Modern insulins are recombinant HUMAN insulin. The resistance is also ti their endogenous insulin (if they have any). And it is this genetic insulin resistance (IRS-1 gene) that raises insulin levels so high it acts like a growth hormone. Grows thicker artery walls, causing arteriosclerosis. And poor peripheral circulation. And also tendon sheaths- carpal tunnel and trigger fingers. Bad discs too. And guess how Statins really work? They lower insulin resistance. The bad IRS-1 gene is in 40% of Caucasians, 50% of Africans. Death rate from heart attacks- 40% for Caucasians, 50% for Africans. Coincidence?
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

31st August 2018, 02:17 PM	#42
p0lka Illuminator Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: near trees, houses and a lake. Posts: 3,047	Originally Posted by casebro Just because you need exogenous insulin does not mean you are T1. I agree, Originally Posted by casebro You are probably a T2 that needs more insulin due to insulin resistance. Probably type2 yes, after all most diabetics are type 2, but I won in that respect and got the type1 reward, I even have other autoimmune stuff to prove it Originally Posted by casebro And the internal insulin resistance causes hyper-insulinemia, gobs of insulin circulating. And those gobs of insulin act like growth hormone, causing oodles of soft tissue problems. Tendinitis, trigger fingers, carpal tunnel, osteoarthritis too. If you are T2, low carb and enough exercise and you won't need no more insulin. At all. I'm still concerned about my clicky feet.

31st August 2018, 03:00 PM	#44
RecoveringYuppy Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 14,185	Originally Posted by angrysoba What disease is it? I remember him saying that both he and his daughter have an "autoimmune disease" but which one is it? I have (had?) an autoimmune disease - sarcoidosis. Does he and his daughter have that? Or maybe they both have AIDS? They are not specific, so how is anyone to judge whether this diet is useful for them as well? Just FYI. AIDS isn't an autoimmune disorder. Autoimmune diseases are where your own immune system attacks otherwise healthy parts of your body. In AIDS you immune system stops defending you.

2nd September 2018, 06:35 AM	#48
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 19,709	Originally Posted by Marcus It's a fairly recent development(recent decades) that it has been realized that Type 1's can also develop insulin resistance to their exogenous insulin. It's now pretty common for Type 1's to Take metformin. Low carb is proving very valuable for T1's, not just for reducing insulin intake but for reducing spikes (increasing time spent in range). Even now in the age of pumps and CGM's , it's not always easy to maintain a good A1c while also avoiding hypos. Hmm, does metformin lower resistance directly, or does it lower sugars and the body lowers insulin levels? Now, wait... T1s have no ability to lower insulin since they don't make any to begin with. I've tried Metformin a couple times. For me it was 'Weight loss via Diarrhea'. I eagerly await a "lowers insulin resistance" pill/.
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

2nd September 2018, 07:11 AM	#49
Marcus Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 3,640	Originally Posted by casebro Hmm, does metformin lower resistance directly, or does it lower sugars and the body lowers insulin levels? Now, wait... T1s have no ability to lower insulin since they don't make any to begin with. I've tried Metformin a couple times. For me it was 'Weight loss via Diarrhea'. I eagerly await a "lowers insulin resistance" pill/. Supposedly Metformin works by lowering insulin resistance,( which is of course the big issue for T2's), and also by discouraging your liver from giving you those glucose boluses, most often expressed as "dawn phenomenon". Sometime T1's develop resistance to the insulin they are taking though, in these cases they may also take Met. Most T1's don't have any insulin resistance though, so don't take Met. I'm T2 myself and love the Met. If you ever get the urge to try it again keep in mind that those side effects go away after a few months for a majority of people.
Marcus Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 3,640	Last edited by Marcus; 2nd September 2018 at 07:13 AM.

2nd September 2018, 07:22 AM	#50
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,370	Originally Posted by casebro I eagerly await a "lowers insulin resistance" pill/. It's not a pill, exactly...
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd September 2018, 09:49 AM	#51
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 19,709	Originally Posted by Marcus Supposedly Metformin works by lowering insulin resistance,( which is of course the big issue for T2's), and also by discouraging your liver from giving you those glucose boluses, most often expressed as "dawn phenomenon". Sometime T1's develop resistance to the insulin they are taking though, in these cases they may also take Met. Most T1's don't have any insulin resistance though, so don't take Met. I'm T2 myself and love the Met. If you ever get the urge to try it again keep in mind that those side effects go away after a few months for a majority of people. The REAL problem is not that "lowering insulin resistance,( which is of course the big issue for T2's),". The real deal is that Insulin Resistance is the culprit for 40% of people, even if it is not bad enough to cause diabetes. Lowering IR enough that your diabetes is solved in not good enough. Read about "pseudo acromegaly". And just a few months of ******** my pants? Really? No, we need to lower IR without messing with our liver function. Check out how the IRS gene defect lowers IGF levels, and that boosting IGF lowers sugar . My IGF is 9th percentile. Too bad so many lab tests use "5-90% is the normal range", not subjective studies of morbidity.
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

2nd September 2018, 10:31 AM	#52
Marcus Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 3,640	By all means find a cure for insulin resistance, you'll get no argument from me. I think you have the wrong idea about Metformin though. It is extremely beneficial for the health of everyone who takes it, and not just diabetics. Over the decades the life extending properties of Metformin have been noticed, so much so the it is the first drug ever approved by the FDA for life extension studies in humans. http://www.lifeextension.com/magazin...proval/page-01 Personally I never "**** my pants" when I started taking Met, I had occasional diarrhea for a couple weeks.
Marcus Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 3,640

2nd September 2018, 10:50 AM	#53
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,370	Originally Posted by Marcus I think you have the wrong idea about Metformin though. It is extremely beneficial for the health of everyone who takes it, and not just diabetics. Lots of people may well benefit from it, but given its rather serious side effects (well beyond diarrhea), it would be quite extraordinary if there was nobody taking it who shouldn't be. For example, metformin interferes with androgen receptors. This makes it more difficult to maintain, let alone build, muscle mass. But building muscle is one of the best ways to increase insulin sensitivity, and it has a bunch of other health benefits as well (increased bone density, better balance, protein reserves against health problems, etc). The loss of muscle mass can compound a lot of health problems, including those from diabetes.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd September 2018, 02:06 PM	#54
Marcus Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 3,640	Originally Posted by Ziggurat Lots of people may well benefit from it, but given its rather serious side effects (well beyond diarrhea), it would be quite extraordinary if there was nobody taking it who shouldn't be. For example, metformin interferes with androgen receptors. This makes it more difficult to maintain, let alone build, muscle mass. But building muscle is one of the best ways to increase insulin sensitivity, and it has a bunch of other health benefits as well (increased bone density, better balance, protein reserves against health problems, etc). The loss of muscle mass can compound a lot of health problems, including those from diabetes. Interesting. I haven't heard of this side effect. A brief bit of googleing shows this effect preventing prostate cancer, but I'm not seeing where it interferes with muscle mass, do you have a link? I'm not doubting you, I'm just interested to read about it. There are conditions where Metformin use is contraindicated, in particular kidney disease. Anyone with a GFR <90 should not use it. Should it be used by the general public for the purpose of life extension? That is yet to be determined, it's what the trials are all about.
Marcus Illuminator Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 3,640

2nd September 2018, 07:55 PM	#55
Ziggurat Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 53,370	Originally Posted by Marcus Interesting. I haven't heard of this side effect. A brief bit of googleing shows this effect preventing prostate cancer, but I'm not seeing where it interferes with muscle mass, do you have a link? I'm not doubting you, I'm just interested to read about it. For example, metformin can decrease testosterone levels: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11707532 I don't think that's the only way it can interfere with muscle growth, though. It doesn't make it impossible to grow muscle, people can and do get stronger on metformin, but it can make it harder. The trade off may well be worth it for a lot of diabetics, and for people who are sedentary that might not make much difference, but you probably shouldn't be taking it if you don't have a compelling reason to.
	__________________ "As long as it is admitted that the law may be diverted from its true purpose -- that it may violate property instead of protecting it -- then everyone will want to participate in making the law, either to protect himself against plunder or to use it for plunder. Political questions will always be prejudicial, dominant, and all-absorbing. There will be fighting at the door of the Legislative Palace, and the struggle within will be no less furious." - Bastiat, The Law

2nd September 2018, 08:18 PM	#56
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 19,709	Originally Posted by Ziggurat For example, metformin can decrease testosterone levels: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11707532 I don't think that's the only way it can interfere with muscle growth, though. It doesn't make it impossible to grow muscle, people can and do get stronger on metformin, but it can make it harder. The trade off may well be worth it for a lot of diabetics, and for people who are sedentary that might not make much difference, but you probably shouldn't be taking it if you don't have a compelling reason to. Hormones is complicated. That defective IRS gene I speak of is Insulin Receptor Substrate gene. The substrate is also used to make the Growth Hormone Receptor. The GHR triggers the liver to make the Insulin Like Growth Factor, IGF. So, fixing the IR will also mess with the IGF system. But more likely the hormonal side effects of metformin are caused by the lowering of IR,which would lower the body's need to put out so much insulin, and since insulin acts like IGF, it is as if the body has less IGF for growth and repair. Ans since IGF/Insulin riggers the output of other hormnone, oops, change one butterfly in China and you get hurricanes in Florida. Insulin activates 10 genes that IGF does not. IGF activates 27 genes that Insulin does not. They have overlap, but they are not identical in action. And since the IRS defect makes bad receptors for both,....
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

3rd September 2018, 12:54 PM	#57
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,496	Originally Posted by Dr. Keith I know I feel much better, physically and mentally, if I shoot for less than 20g crabs and all of that from green leafy vegetables. The first week or two may suck, but once your body adapts it really feels great. I looked up the ready-made Hormel Roast beef au jus. It's 640 calories for the container but there's sugar added, so that "meat" comes to 15 g carbs. Does the 20g include dietary fiber?
	Last edited by Minoosh; 3rd September 2018 at 01:21 PM.

3rd September 2018, 01:06 PM	#58
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' . Posts: 18,565	Not speaking for Dr. Kieth, but most people looking to minimize their 'carbs' only count net carbs. Total minus fiber.. There is no fiber listed for the Roast beef au jus.. The 5 g of sugar in a 5oz serving apparently comes from added sugar in the form of dextrose. When I look at 5oz roast chuck in my Cronometer app, is says " 354 calories and 0 net carbs ".
	__________________ ‘Trust in Allah but tie up your camel.’ Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 3rd September 2018 at 01:14 PM.

3rd September 2018, 01:20 PM	#59
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,496	I do wonder at times how we ended up with cereal, toast and orange juice as a typical breakfast. When I had bagels for breakfast I was hungry all day; did better with a handful of mixed nuts. I don't think all-meat would work for me, but I am interested in strictly limiting carbs for a couple of weeks for the mood benefits. Mom turns 94 this month and I don't want to experiment much with her food. She can have my English muffin I guess , I'll just eat the butter! What about just plain old fasting? Does that also favor fat burning or do you just burn muscle? I have adequate adipose reserves.

3rd September 2018, 01:24 PM	#60
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 26,116	Originally Posted by Minoosh I do wonder at times how we ended up with cereal, toast and orange juice as a typical breakfast. I'm unaware of American breakfasts that include toast with cereal (in milk).
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

3rd September 2018, 01:26 PM	#61
GlennB Loggerheaded, earth-vexing fustilarian Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 29,302	Originally Posted by Minoosh What about just plain old fasting? Does that also favor fat burning or do you just burn muscle? I have adequate adipose reserves. Muscle is the last to go when fasting/starvation is in play.

3rd September 2018, 02:58 PM	#62
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 19,709	The UKPDS study showed that it was worthless for diabetics to try to maintain 'normal' A1C levels. Seems the savings in long term costs did not even pay for the extra meds. So now they are happy with my 7.1 A1C. Which makes me think that most of the side effects of diabetes are not caused by high sugars, but by the high insulin levels. Insulin Resistance is the culprit, high sugar is merely a symptom.
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

3rd September 2018, 03:10 PM	#63
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,496	Originally Posted by William Parcher I'm unaware of American breakfasts that include toast with cereal (in milk). Well, I wouldn't eat toast and cereal together but I love me some not-from-concentrate OJ. The milk helps, but kind of a lot of carbs. I'm not sold on low-carb diets, they strike me as an over-marketed gimmick. Same with gluten-free. But there is something about bread that makes me want more bread.

3rd September 2018, 03:17 PM	#64
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,496	Originally Posted by GlennB Muscle is the last to go when fasting/starvation is in play. Seriously? Scientifically? I never understood diet instructions that said, "Don't skip meals," because it's kind of worked for me. I'm hungrier on the days I eat breakfast. I get a lot of cardio and it doesn't seem to need food to work (except swimming).

3rd September 2018, 04:07 PM	#65
Belz... Fiend God Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: In a post-fact world Posts: 96,875	Originally Posted by Beelzebuddy That does explain Justin Bieber. And Céline Dion.
	__________________ Master of the Shining Darkness "My views are nonsense. So what?" - BobTheCoward

3rd September 2018, 04:56 PM	#66
Minoosh Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jul 2011 Posts: 12,496	All-meat just doesn't seem like it would have been a good adaptation for hunters & gatherers. Maybe they ate a lot of bugs. Are bugs meat?

7th September 2018, 12:57 PM	#67
luchog Neo-Post-Retro-Revivalist Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: The Emerald City Posts: 16,201	Originally Posted by lomiller Diets consisting primarily of meat can work provided there is sufficient fat in them. Inuit diets included blubber to add both fat and vitamin C. Without enough fat in them you’d loose weight and suffer a number of other fairly serious problems. The problem with this is that it won't work the same for non-Inuit peoples. Inuit people have a specific genetic mutation that allows them to be healthier on their diet. It's the mutation which allows them to adapt to the diet, not the diet itself, that is responsible for their health. It is not, as many woo diet advocates claim, a ketogenic diet. The processing of meat is enabled by a liver that is considerably larger than most other populations, and more frequent urination to purge the byproducts of their diet. More importantly, they eat raw meat, which means that they get much of their dietary calorie intake not from fat or protein, but from glycogen stores in the meat and fat. And the Inuit diet is not exclusively meat and fish. They also eat vegetable matter, mostly berries, certain wild herbs and grasses, and various tubers (often by raiding mouse food caches). Not a lot, but enough to provide the few nutrients they cannot get from meat. Originally Posted by Minoosh All-meat just doesn't seem like it would have been a good adaptation for hunters & gatherers. Maybe they ate a lot of bugs. Are bugs meat? An average hunter-gatherer diet isn't all that high in meat, certainly not all-meat. There are a lot of fruits, vegetables (particularly tubers), and yeah, bugs too for some of them (fat-rich grubs and locusts most commonly, although some far-eastern cuisines are fond of ant's eggs too).
	__________________ When you say that fascists should only be defeated through debate, what you're really saying is that the marginalized and vulnerable should have to endlessly argue for their right to exist; and at no point should they ever be fully accepted, and the debate considered won. Last edited by luchog; 7th September 2018 at 01:40 PM.

7th September 2018, 01:03 PM	#68
William Parcher Show me the monkey! Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 26,116	Inuit also eat seaweed (macroalgae) which is a great food.
	__________________ Bigfoot believers and Bigfoot skeptics are both plumb crazy. Each spends more than one minute per year thinking about Bigfoot.

7th September 2018, 01:15 PM	#69
Dr. Keith Not a doctor. Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 25,551	Originally Posted by Minoosh I looked up the ready-made Hormel Roast beef au jus. It's 640 calories for the container but there's sugar added, so that "meat" comes to 15 g carbs. Does the 20g include dietary fiber? Finding prepared foods without added sugar is very difficult. I tend to prepare my own meat as much as possible to avoid sauces that will have more sugar in them than I want. I count net carbs as mentioned by Skeptical Greg. Total carbs minus fiber. Sometimes I will indulge in a sweet that is made with sugar alcohols, but I try not to make that a habit. Leafy green veggies are fairly low, tomatoes and berries are bit higher, citrus fruits and ground veggies are off the menu for me. And while I try to keep it under 20, I more often land between twenty and fifty. I'm not the measuring type so I can't be 100% confident in that claim either.
	__________________ Suffering is not a punishment not a fruit of sin, it is a gift of God. He allows us to share in His suffering and to make up for the sins of the world. -Mother Teresa If I had a pet panda I would name it Snowflake.

7th September 2018, 11:58 PM	#70
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 41,409	I lost 80 lb (35 kg) and have kept it off two and a half years. Everybody thinks you need to eat according to a gimmick to lose weight. My gimmick is to eat the food I love in moderation and do an exercise I enjoy. The old, "eat less, move more" that people hate to hear and won't get you any patreons.
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift". Last edited by Orphia Nay; 7th September 2018 at 11:59 PM.

8th September 2018, 12:04 AM	#71
Roboramma Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shanghai Posts: 15,173	Originally Posted by Orphia Nay I lost 80 lb (35 kg) and have kept it off two and a half years. Everybody thinks you need to eat according to a gimmick to lose weight. My gimmick was to eat the food I love in moderation and do an exercise I enjoy. The old, "eat less, move more" that people hate to hear and won't get you any patreons. Well, I have no idea if her diet is responsible for her wellness, but the motivation for her change in diet wasn't losing weight but several symptoms including: - Arthritis - Some sort of skin problem - Depression - Nausea/diarrhoea Supposedly all of these things cleared up with her diet change. No idea how honest she's being able that, although I doubt she's lying about the hip replacement. I think what you've done is amazing and agree with what you say, I just think it doesn't necessarily apply to this girl. Though it may apply to those who are looking to her for answers.
	__________________ "... when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together." Isaac Asimov

8th September 2018, 12:21 AM	#72
Orphia Nay Penguilicious Spodmaster. Tagger Photo Contest Winner Join Date: May 2005 Location: Ponylandistan Presidential Palace (above the Spods' stables). Posts: 41,409	Cheers, Roboramma. Wasn't thinking of the girl. With regards to her, fame is a vitalising placebo. I'm sure she thinks she feels better. Plus, her ailments are the sort of things that can clear up of their own accord, or go in phases. If she ate more bony fish (herring, sardines) that might improve calcium levels and osteoarthritis, but I haven't seen what sorts of meat she eats and you can do that and still eat a balanced diet.
	__________________ "We stigmatize and send to the margins people who trigger in us the feelings we want to avoid" - Melinda Gates, "The Moment of Lift".

8th September 2018, 08:50 AM	#74
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' . Posts: 18,565	Originally Posted by Orphia Nay Cheers, Roboramma. Wasn't thinking of the girl. With regards to her, fame is a vitalising placebo. I'm sure she thinks she feels better. Plus, her ailments are the sort of things that can clear up of their own accord, or go in phases. If she ate more bony fish (herring, sardines) that might improve calcium levels and osteoarthritis, but I haven't seen what sorts of meat she eats and you can do that and still eat a balanced diet. That's a strange comment.. Can one think they feel better, without actually feeling better? Also, getting more calcium does not improve bone health in the absence of otherwise good nutrition. Many elements of the standard American diet ( SAD ) are calcium depleting. in that it interferes with absorption.
	__________________ ‘Trust in Allah but tie up your camel.’ Last edited by Skeptical Greg; 8th September 2018 at 08:54 AM.

8th September 2018, 01:36 PM	#75
casebro Penultimate Amazing Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 19,709	Originally Posted by Skeptical Greg That's a strange comment.. Can one think they feel better, without actually feeling better? Also, getting more calcium does not improve bone health in the absence of otherwise good nutrition. Many elements of the standard American diet ( SAD ) are calcium depleting. in that it interferes with absorption. Absorption is only a part of calcium metabolism. That is why giving calcium supplements doesn't help osteoporotics. So, many if us have calcium in the wrong places. Like arteries, heart valves, tendons, .... Our SAD diet certainly hasn't depleted our calcium.
	__________________ Any sufficiently advanced idea is indistinguishable from idiocy to those who don't actually understanding the concept.

8th September 2018, 02:33 PM	#76
Skeptical Greg Agave Wine Connoisseur Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Just past ' Resume Speed ' . Posts: 18,565	Not the available stores, anyway.. It is being removed from your bones to be deposited in those other places..
	__________________ ‘Trust in Allah but tie up your camel.’