Origins of Covid

[angrysoba]

Also, from what I have seen, the work on transgenic mice occurred in North Carolina.

Maybe there were plans to do this in WIV as well, but I haven't seen evidence that they made viruses with furin-cleavage sites, which is the claim that is being made by some of the lab leak proponents.

[michaelsuede]

Hmm... perhaps you don't understand the above two quotes I posted, where they describe how they constructed recombinant and chimeric viruses with the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein and were infecting humanized mice with them. They were doing this at the WIV - that's where these experiments were taking place.

They did not "find" recombinant and chimeric viruses containing the SARS-CoV-2 spike, they explicitly made them.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

Hmm... perhaps you don't understand the above two quotes I posted, where they describe how they constructed recombinant and chimeric viruses with the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein and were infecting humanized mice with them. They were doing this at the WIV - that's where these experiments were taking place.

They did not "find" recombinant and chimeric viruses containing the SARS-CoV-2 spike, they explicitly made them.

Sorry, but WHAT?!?

They said they were constructing chimeric viruses with the SARS-CoV2 spike protein?

I’m going to say that’s false. As in it literally makes no sense.

[michaelsuede]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Sorry, but WHAT?!?

They said they were constructing chimeric viruses with the SARS-CoV2 spike protein?

I’m going to say that’s false. As in it literally makes no sense.

Correct, it makes no sense, but that's what they were doing.

If you want to understand their reasoning, read the rejected DARPA project they proposed where they explain in great detail exactly why they wanted to do this.

The DARPA report is also linked in my letter, but clearly you don't have time to bother reading it, so I'll be your secretary one more time and link it for you.

https://assets.ctfassets.net/syq3snm...k_Redacted.pdf

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

Correct, it makes no sense, but that's what they were doing.

If you want to understand their reasoning, read the rejected DARPA project they proposed where they explain in great detail exactly why they wanted to do this.

The DARPA report is also linked in my letter, but clearly you don't have time to bother reading it, so I'll be your secretary one more time and link it for you.

https://assets.ctfassets.net/syq3snm...k_Redacted.pdf

Sorry, but if you argue that they used SARS-CoV2 spike protein and were inserting it into chimeric viruses, you need to show where they specified the genomic sequence of their spike proteins. Then maybe you can say, look, this is exactly the spike protein that turned up in SARS-CoV2. Could you show me where that is?

But anyway, you know, these are YOUR claims, so the onus is on YOU to provide the information.

Just doing a document dump and saying that all the pieces of your claims are in there, somewhere is very suspicious behaviour.

[michaelsuede]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Sorry, but if you argue that they used SARS-CoV2 spike protein and were inserting it into chimeric viruses, you need to show where they specified the genomic sequence of their spike proteins. Then maybe you can say, look, this is exactly the spike protein that turned up in SARS-CoV2. Could you show me where that is?

But anyway, you know, these are YOUR claims, so the onus is on YOU to provide the information.

Just doing a document dump and saying that all the pieces of your claims are in there, somewhere is very suspicious behaviour.

Again, they explicitly tell you in the quotes. I can only tell you so many times. I know this is a hard pill to swallow, but they tell you exactly what backbones and what spikes they were working with. And they weren't just doing it with SARS viruses, they were doing it with MERS viruses as well.

They took the WIV1 backbone and inserted SHC014, WIV16 and Rs4231 spikes on to it, then infected mice with humanized ACE2 receptors, which explains exactly how SARS-CoV-2 was created. Every element is there. And it all took place in Wuhan.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

Again, they explicitly tell you in the quotes. I can only tell you so many times. I know this is a hard pill to swallow, but they tell you exactly what backbones and what spikes they were working with. And they weren't just doing it with SARS viruses, they were doing it with MERS viruses as well.

They took the WIV1 backbone and inserted SHC014, WIV16 and Rs4231 spikes on to it, then infected mice with humanized ACE2 receptors, which explains exactly how SARS-CoV-2 was created. Every element is there. And it all took place in Wuhan.

I don't think your interpretation is correct.

Which of those spikes is the SARS-CoV2 spike?

Where is the evidence that this was done in WIV?

I don't even know if any of this had been done at all, but my understanding is that the parts that are sometimes considered gain of function were done in Baric's lab.

[michaelsuede]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

I don't think your interpretation is correct.

Which of those spikes is the SARS-CoV2 spike?

Where is the evidence that this was done in WIV?

I don't even know if any of this had been done at all, but my understanding is that the parts that are sometimes considered gain of function were done in Baric's lab.

First, do you agree that I just showed you proof that EcoHealth Alliance was taking SARS viral backbones, inserting ACE2 receptive spike proteins on to them and then infecting mice with humanized ACE2 receptors?

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

First, do you agree that I just showed you proof that EcoHealth Alliance was taking SARS viral backbones, inserting ACE2 receptive spike proteins on to them and then infecting mice with humanized ACE2 receptors?

I don’t dispute that they have been making chimeric viruses using SARS viral backbones. We have been back and forth on this thread about that. Much of that research was done in Ralph Baric’s lab in North Carolina, so you haven’t shown me anything I didn’t know.

Your claim is that they inserted SARS-CoV2 spike proteins, and they did it in the WIV. Have you proved THAT?

[michaelsuede]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

I don’t dispute that they have been making chimeric viruses using SARS viral backbones. We have been back and forth on this thread about that. Much of that research was done in Ralph Baric’s lab in North Carolina, so you haven’t shown me anything I didn’t know.

Your claim is that they inserted SARS-CoV2 spike proteins, and they did it in the WIV. Have you proved THAT?

On page 20, the report lists SHI, ZHENGLI and GE, XINGY as co-investigators working for the WIV.

On page 23, the report lists the foreign component of the research being the WIV.

On page 24, report states the WIV is responsible for the "Principal Laboratory for all Research in China and detailed in our Specific Aims"

All of this was done at the WIV between 2014-2019.

SARS-CoV-2 wasn't characterized at the time they were doing the report, so obviously there isn't going to be a quote in the report where I can say "AH HA! Here's where they say they made SARS-CoV-2!" SARS-CoV-2 didn't exist until it escaped from a humanized mouse's lungs and went on to infect the world.

Here's the relevant passage from the Nature study explaining what we are looking for:

Quote:

1. The acquisition of both the polybasic cleavage site and predicted O-linked glycans also argues against culture-based scenarios. New polybasic cleavage sites have been observed only after prolonged passage of low-pathogenicity avian influenza virus in vitro or in vivo17.

2. Furthermore, a hypothetical generation of SARS-CoV-2 by cell culture or animal passage would have required prior isolation of a progenitor virus with very high genetic similarity, which has not been described.

3. Subsequent generation of a polybasic cleavage site would have then required repeated passage in cell culture or animals with ACE2 receptors similar to those of humans, but such work has also not previously been described.

4. Finally, the generation of the predicted O-linked glycans is also unlikely to have occurred due to cell-culture passage, as such features suggest the involvement of an immune system18.

EHA states,

Quote:

"To analyze which viruses were a potential public health risk, we managed to culture three strains of SARSr-CoVs from bat feces: WIV1, WIV16 and Rs4874."

Rs4874 has the most closely related spike protein to SARS-CoV-2. Rs4874 can bind to human ACE2

So we know they are in possession of a highly genetically similar virus. Point 2 is met.

EHA states,

Quote:

"Using the reverse genetic system we previously developed, we constructed two chimeric viruses with the WIV1 backbone replaced with the S gene of Rs7327 and Rs4231, respectively. Vero E6 cells [cells that are interferon-deficient so they do not secrete anti-viral interferon when infected by viruses] were respectively infected with Rs4874, WIV1-Rs4231S and WIV1- Rs7327S, and efficient virus replication was detected by immunofluorescence assay in all infections. To assess the usage of human ACE2 by the three novel SL-CoVs, we conducted virus infectivity studies using Hela cells with or without the expression of human ACE2. All viruses replicated efficiently in the human ACE2-expressing cells."

So we know they are infecting human cells with engineered viruses with ACE2 selective RBDs. We know they are able to create completely novel viruses. We know they have the ability manipulate large segments of genetic code:

Quote:

“Infectious clones with the S gene of novel SARSr-CoVs and the SARSr-CoV WIV1 genome backbone using the reverse genetic system developed in our previous R01 [previously approved grants]. The correct infectious BAC [bacterial artificial chromosome, a biological system allowing storage and manipulation of large segments of genetic code] clones will be screened by BAC DNA digestion with appropriate restriction enzyme or PCR amplification. The chimeric viruses will be rescued in Vero cells and then verified by sequence analyses. Our research group is well versed in coronavirus reverse genetics.”

And from the previous quote I cited, we know they were infecting humanized mice with engineered viruses specifically targeting ACE2. That takes care of points 1, 3 and 4.

Still think a "natural emergence" is the most likely scenario?

Here's what Tulane's Bob Garry had to say about it:

Quote:

“I really can’t think of a plausible natural scenario where you get from the bat virus or one very similar to it to nCoV where you insert exactly 4 amino acids 12 nucleotide that all have to be added at the exact same time to gain this function – that and you don’t change any other amino acid in S2? I just can’t figure out how this gets accomplished in nature."

Again, we come to the question of what is most likely.

Is it more likely nature magically solved an impossible problem or is it more likely the people who were conducting gain-of-function research on SARS viruses in a Wuhan Lab, specifically working on ACE2 RBDs, and that had the knowledge and equipment necessary to make SARS-CoV-2, made it.

[carlitos]

A Humanized mouse?

[michaelsuede]

Originally Posted by carlitos

A Humanized mouse?

They genetically modified mice to have the same ACE2 receptors as humans.

[Puppycow]

It's one of the things they do in animal testing to make the animals more similar to humans, so that presumably the results will be more applicable to humans.

Otherwise, the research they do in mice might not work the same way in humans.

[angrysoba]

It doesn't sound that close to SARS-CoV2:

Quote:

To better understand the potential of WHCV to infect humans, the receptor-binding domain (RBD) of its spike protein was compared with those of SARS-CoVs and bat SARS-like CoVs. The RBD sequences of WHCV were more closely related to those of SARS-CoVs (73.8–74.9% amino acid identity) and SARS-like CoVs, including strains Rs4874, Rs7327 and Rs4231 (75.9–76.9% amino acid identity), that are able to use the human ACE2 receptor for cell entry

In fact, it sounds extremely far from it.

Besides, you even pointed to a paper from Segreto and Deigin saying that SARS-CoV2 had unique RBDs.

The one found in Laos last year was the one closest to that of SARS-CoV2, so I am unconvinced that what you are describing is SARS-CoV2.

Also, although we know that WIV was collaborating on the project, the work that it sounds like you are referring to seems to have been done in Baric's lab in North Carolina as there is a reference there to BSL-3 labs on pages 22 and 23.

[angrysoba]

And we should also note that these were proposals and not approved.

Now, of course, the next idea is that because it was not approved, they did it secretly anyway, and they did it in the WIV because they didn't get approval to do it in America.

I think that is possible.

[michaelsuede]

I'm not talking about the DARPA proposal, I'm taking about the EHA NIAID grant report:

https://republicans-energycommerce.h...Year-5-EHA.pdf

The grant report specifically says the WIV is responsible for the "Principal Laboratory for all Research in China and detailed in our Specific Aims"

That document image has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

It's not expected that the RBD of the spike would be identical between the two given the amount of engineering they were engaged in. These are completely novel viruses they are creating. They were taking parts of viruses and mashing them together to make completely new ones. Once you start infecting humanized mice with them, that receptor binding domain is going to mutate to better hit the target.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by carlitos

A Humanized mouse?

That's what it's called. Baric sent some to Shi at the WIV.

As for the DARPA proposal, rejected or not, it wasn't the only possible source of funding.

[michaelsuede]

Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger

That's what it's called. Baric sent some to Shi at the WIV.

As for the DARPA proposal, rejected or not, it wasn't the only possible source of funding.

Yeah, like the 7.5 million dollar NIAID grant given explicitly to this project that resulted in SARS-CoV-2 being created.

“Understanding the Risk of Bat Coronavirus Emergence” - that's what the SARS-CoV-2 genesis project was named.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

I'm not talking about the DARPA proposal, I'm taking about the EHA NIAID grant report:

https://republicans-energycommerce.h...Year-5-EHA.pdf

The grant report specifically says the WIV is responsible for the "Principal Laboratory for all Research in China and detailed in our Specific Aims"

That document image has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

It's not expected that the RBD of the spike would be identical between the two given the amount of engineering they were engaged in. These are completely novel viruses they are creating. They were taking parts of viruses and mashing them together to make completely new ones. Once you start infecting humanized mice with them, that receptor binding domain is going to mutate to better hit the target.

No, but here is the bit that is difficult to explain. If you have a spike protein from a virus that is very different from SARS-CoV2, surely it would be pretty astonishing to make it almost identical to one that was found in nature in 2021 (BANAL-52).

Obviously I am no virologist. Maybe you are. Could you tell me who endorses this theory of yours?

[michaelsuede]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

No, but here is the bit that is difficult to explain. If you have a spike protein from a virus that is very different from SARS-CoV2, surely it would be pretty astonishing to make it almost identical to one that was found in nature in 2021 (BANAL-52).

Obviously I am no virologist. Maybe you are. Could you tell me who endorses this theory of yours?

https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-871965/v1

Paper on BANAL-52 and other similar viruses:

Quote:

None of these bat viruses harbors a furin cleavage site in the spike.

Darn, doesn't sound like we have a winner with BANAL-52.

Let's quote Tulane's Bob Garry one more time, just to let it marinate around in our brains for a bit.

Quote:

“I really can’t think of a plausible natural scenario where you get from the bat virus or one very similar to it to nCoV where you insert exactly 4 amino acids 12 nucleotide that all have to be added at the exact same time to gain this function – that and you don’t change any other amino acid in S2? I just can’t figure out how this gets accomplished in nature."

This virus came from CHY-NA not Loas.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-871965/v1

Paper on BANAL-52 and other similar viruses:

Darn, doesn't sound like we have a winner with BANAL-52.

No, I already told you that.

Literally nobody is claiming that BANAL-52 is the progenitor virus that led to SARS-CoV2.

The significance of the discovery is that we now know that a certain feature that was considered to be unique to SARS-CoV2 and that was specified in the Segreto and Deigin paper actually turned up in the wild.

Therefore the claim that it was probably engineered in a lab has lost one of the main pillars.

The other one, of course, is the furin cleavage site. That has not been found yet.

[michaelsuede]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

No, I already told you that.

Literally nobody is claiming that BANAL-52 is the progenitor virus that led to SARS-CoV2.

The significance of the discovery is that we now know that a certain feature that was considered to be unique to SARS-CoV2 and that was specified in the Segreto and Deigin paper actually turned up in the wild.

Therefore the claim that it was probably engineered in a lab has lost one of the main pillars.

The other one, of course, is the furin cleavage site. That has not been found yet.

Ok, so we know a team of virologists in Wuhan, the place where the pandemic originated, were working on taking bat viruses and weaponizing them to target human ACE2 receptors, and that they were doing so with spike proteins that are highly genetically similar to SARS-CoV-2, while using tools that would normally put two human-preferred codons in the furin cleavage site of an engineered virus, just like SARS-CoV-2 has.

And again, let's just savor the flavor of Tulane's Bob Garry one last time.

Quote:

“I really can’t think of a plausible natural scenario where you get from the bat virus or one very similar to it to nCoV where you insert exactly 4 amino acids 12 nucleotide that all have to be added at the exact same time to gain this function – that and you don’t change any other amino acid in S2? I just can’t figure out how this gets accomplished in nature."

But you believe that happened by chance in a bat cave located right next door to the laboratory these guys were working in.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

Ok, so we know a team of virologists in Wuhan, the place where the pandemic originated, were working on taking bat viruses and weaponizing them to target human ACE2 receptors, and that they were doing so with spike proteins that are highly genetically similar to SARS-CoV-2, while using tools that would normally put two human-preferred codons in the furin cleavage site of an engineered virus, just like SARS-CoV-2 has.

And again, let's just savor the flavor of Tulane's Bob Garry one last time.


But you believe that happened by chance in a bat cave located right next door to the laboratory these guys were working in.

Nope. The highlighted is editorializing/just plain wrong.

I don't think you are characterizing very much of this accurately.

[michaelsuede]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

Nope. The highlighted is editorializing/just plain wrong.

I don't think you are characterizing very much of this accurately.

Ok, tell me where the bat cave was located that SARS-CoV-2 came from.

You do believe the pandemic originated in Wuhan, correct?

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

Ok, tell me where the bat cave was located that SARS-CoV-2 came from.

You do believe the pandemic originated in Wuhan, correct?

We don't know where the virus came from.

Some evidence suggests it probably came from the Huanan Market.

And the virus could have got into the market through the wild-life trade, which means that it likely came from a rural wild-life farm.

However, there is still a lot that is unknown.

[michaelsuede]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

We don't know where the virus came from.

Some evidence suggests it probably came from the Huanan Market.

And the virus could have got into the market through the wild-life trade, which means that it likely came from a rural wild-life farm.

However, there is still a lot that is unknown.

The Huanan Market is literally 400 meters from the WIV.

I mean think about what you are saying.

We have to be talking about trillion to one odds, hell maybe even gazillion to one odds, that a completely novel human infectious, ACE2 targeting, gene edited furin cleavage site having, bat borne corona virus just happens to erupt into a pandemic 400 meters away from a lab that was working on creating that exact same virus.

[michaelsuede]

[lionking]

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

The Huanan Market is literally 400 meters from the WIV.

I mean think about what you are saying.

We have to be talking about trillion to one odds, hell maybe even gazillion to one odds, that a completely novel human infectious, ACE2 targeting, gene edited furin cleavage site having, bat borne corona virus just happens to erupt into a pandemic 400 meters away from a lab that was working on creating that exact same virus.

Arguments from incredulity are the weakest arguments.

[michaelsuede]

Originally Posted by lionking

Arguments from incredulity are the weakest arguments.

LOL! Incredulity! HAHAHAHA!

I'm dying.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

The Huanan Market is literally 400 meters from the WIV.

I mean think about what you are saying.

We have to be talking about trillion to one odds, hell maybe even gazillion to one odds, that a completely novel human infectious, ACE2 targeting, gene edited furin cleavage site having, bat borne corona virus just happens to erupt into a pandemic 400 meters away from a lab that was working on creating that exact same virus.

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

https://media.gab.com/system/media_a...38986cb99b.jpg

You see, this is why a lot of people think that the lab leak is a conspiracy theory.

It relies on the idea of a massive cover-up by, let's see, the Wuhan Institute of Virology, the NIH, most of the world's virologists, and Google.

It is apparently being exposed by some right-wing Senators, ivermectin proponents, anti-vaxxers and ...erm... Gab dwellers?

Look, Michael, I am sure you are a nice guy... well, I'm not sure, but I'll say I hope you're a nice guy, but I don't really have a lot of confidence in your analysis of the documents you feel support your conclusion that the lab leak is the best explanation for the pandemic (just as I'm not confident of your claims about ivermectin and vaccines).

I think these are all difficult topics and require a lot of real expertise. Those who I think have that expertise don't seem to be as persuaded as you are.

[michaelsuede]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

You see, this is why a lot of people think that the lab leak is a conspiracy theory.

It relies on the idea of a massive cover-up by, let's see, the Wuhan Institute of Virology, the NIH, most of the world's virologists, and Google.

It is apparently being exposed by some right-wing Senators, ivermectin proponents, anti-vaxxers and ...erm... Gab dwellers?

Look, Michael, I am sure you are a nice guy... well, I'm not sure, but I'll say I hope you're a nice guy, but I don't really have a lot of confidence in your analysis of the documents you feel support your conclusion that the lab leak is the best explanation for the pandemic (just as I'm not confident of your claims about ivermectin and vaccines).

I think these are all difficult topics and require a lot of real expertise. Those who I think have that expertise don't seem to be as persuaded as you are.

You don't need confidence in my analysis, I'm giving all the evidence for you to make your own analysis. I'm literally handing you the documents where EHA is telling you explicitly what they were up to, the emails between Fauci, Collins and the scientists, everything.

I don't think its possible for there to be any more evidence short of Fauci coming right out and saying they did it and he funded them. This wasn't some vast conspiracy, this took place between about 10 people.

[angrysoba]

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

You don't need confidence in my analysis, I'm giving all the evidence for you to make your own analysis. I'm literally handing you the documents where EHA is telling you explicitly what they were up to, the emails between Fauci, Collins and the scientists, everything.

I don't think its possible for there to be any more evidence short of Fauci coming right out and saying they did it and he funded them. This wasn't some vast conspiracy, this took place between about 10 people.

I am not remotely convinced either that you have demonstrated that the WIV made SARS-CoV2, that you know what you are talking about, or that you aren't putting forward a vast conspiracy theory. You even said that you use Duck Duck Go because Google is somehow suppressing searches for the documents you are talking about.

[michaelsuede]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

I am not remotely convinced either that you have demonstrated that the WIV made SARS-CoV2, that you know what you are talking about, or that you aren't putting forward a vast conspiracy theory. You even said that you use Duck Duck Go because Google is somehow suppressing searches for the documents you are talking about.

That's a shame, because this means it's the end of the debate. I appreciate you pushing and refusing to believe no matter what because it forced me to refine every aspect of my argument until I fully understood every last detail of what went on for myself. I have learned a tremendous amount by arguing with you.

You have all the evidence should you wish to look at it, including the fact that Google censors the hell out of their search results.

[W.D.Clinger]

With my highlighting:

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

The Huanan Market is literally 400 meters from the WIV.

I mean think about what you are saying.

We have to be talking about trillion to one odds, hell maybe even gazillion to one odds, that a completely novel human infectious, ACE2 targeting, gene edited furin cleavage site having, bat borne corona virus just happens to erupt into a pandemic 400 meters away from a lab that was working on creating that exact same virus.

Those highlighted statements are incorrect.

As was explained earlier in this thread, WIV's Wuchang campus is on the other side of the Yangtze River, at least 10km away from the Huanan Market.

michaelsuede's confusion is likely explained by the fact that a branch office of the Chinese Center for Disease Control and Prevention is located in Wuhan, not far from the Huanan Market:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The Wuhan office of the CCDC is 300 yards from the wet market that was considered a source of the COVID-19 coronavirus.^[11][12]

As was pointed out by Skeptic Ginger earlier in this thread, there are some who think a lab leak, if one occurred, was more likely to have occurred at that CCDC facility than at WIV:

Quote:

“What is more concerning to me is the other lab,” Ben Embarek said. “The one that is next to the market,” he explained, referring to the Wuhan branch of the Chinese CDC, located just 500 meters (547 yards) away from the Huanan market.

[michaelsuede]

Clinger, I just showed you a report written by the scientists engaged in making the virus themselves, explicitly telling you that this took place at the WIV, with no mention of any other lab being involved.

As for the market being 17 miles away, I've looked at the Snopes article on this, I've looked at other commentary on this, and I understand that it appears to be 17 miles away.

That said, I know with total certainty that I looked up the location of the WIV and Huanan market myself nearly two years ago on Google maps when this conspiracy theory first started to swirl around the internet and saw with my own two eyes that they were right next door to each other.

This is what the market looked like:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/wuhan-huan...060729015.html

That Yahoo article has images of the market that look exactly like what I saw. If you search on Google Maps for it, the satellite map has been replaced with an old super-low resolution image where you can't see anything. Bing and Apple don't even take you to the correct place.

They closed that market and reopened it somewhere else, changed the address, and did the same for the WIV, which also looks nothing like the building I saw two years ago.

Look at the Snopes Google Earth video of the market - it looks NOTHING like the Yahoo pictures. They aren't looking at the right place.

Here is a Washington Times article from March 2020:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...viruses-near-/

Quote:

A State Department official said the reports about Mr. Tian and his role in working with bat viruses are concerning.

“He lives and works at Wuhan’s CDC, a few hundred yards away from the Huanan wet market,” the official said. “He is among the small team in Wuhan that has contributed to China’s obsession in recent years with virus hunting and research.”

[W.D.Clinger]

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

Clinger, I just showed you a report written by the scientists engaged in making the virus themselves, explicitly telling you that this took place at the WIV, with no mention of any other lab being involved.

If you believe this took place at the WIV, then the fact that the CCDC facility is located only a few hundred meters from the market cannot count as evidence in support of your belief.

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

That said, I know with total certainty that I looked up the location of the WIV and Huanan market myself nearly two years ago on Google maps when this conspiracy theory first started to swirl around the internet and saw with my own two eyes that they were right next door to each other.

Google, Yahoo, Bing, and Apple maps are not infallible. In your own use of those maps, you discovered the fact that they do not always agree. That should have given you a clue to their fallibility.

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

Here is a Washington Times article from March 2020:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...viruses-near-/

Quote:

A State Department official said the reports about Mr. Tian and his role in working with bat viruses are concerning.

“He lives and works at Wuhan’s CDC, a few hundred yards away from the Huanan wet market,” the official said. “He is among the small team in Wuhan that has contributed to China’s obsession in recent years with virus hunting and research.”

Your quotation correctly identifies Tian Junhua as working at Wuhan's CDC. If you believe a lab leak took place at the WIV, then the fact that Tian Junhua works at Wuhan's CDC rather than WIV does not count as evidence in support of your belief.

It does, however, count as evidence of your continuing confusion.

[lionking]

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

Clinger, I just showed you a report written by the scientists engaged in making the virus themselves, explicitly telling you that this took place at the WIV, with no mention of any other lab being involved.

As for the market being 17 miles away, I've looked at the Snopes article on this, I've looked at other commentary on this, and I understand that it appears to be 17 miles away.

That said, I know with total certainty that I looked up the location of the WIV and Huanan market myself nearly two years ago on Google maps when this conspiracy theory first started to swirl around the internet and saw with my own two eyes that they were right next door to each other.

This is what the market looked like:
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/wuhan-huan...060729015.html

That Yahoo article has images of the market that look exactly like what I saw. If you search on Google Maps for it, the satellite map has been replaced with an old super-low resolution image where you can't see anything. Bing and Apple don't even take you to the correct place.

They closed that market and reopened it somewhere else, changed the address, and did the same for the WIV, which also looks nothing like the building I saw two years ago.

Look at the Snopes Google Earth video of the market - it looks NOTHING like the Yahoo pictures. They aren't looking at the right place.

Here is a Washington Times article from March 2020:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news...viruses-near-/

Didn’t you say Google was rubbish?

[michaelsuede]

They moved that market and the imagery doesn't line up any more.

Here's what the National Review said about the incident:

Quote:

The second disputable contention is that, “satellite imagery of Wuhan in September and October 2019 that showed a significant uptick in the number of people at local hospitals surrounding the WIV’s headquarters, coupled with an unusually high number of patients with symptoms similar to COVID-19.” The problem is that we don’t know if those upper-respiratory illnesses and viral infections represented cases of SARS-CoV-2; Wuhan has a lot of other viruses going around! In June and July 2019, the streets of Wuhan saw massive protests of thousands of people, objecting to construction of a new incinerator plant, complaining that the city’s air quality was bad enough.

[The Atheist]

Originally Posted by michaelsuede

You don't need confidence in my analysis...

Lucky break.

[Skeptic Ginger]

Originally Posted by angrysoba

We don't know where the virus came from.

Some evidence suggests it probably came from the Huanan Market.

There is no credible evidence that market or any other market in Wuhan was the initial 'crossover' site. By continuing to repeat this you reinforce the falsehood.

And as for Worobey's genetic walk-back, he had missing information on the first patients and while people like Bloom politely said the walk-back had no obvious flaws, he also said it wasn't conclusive evidence.

Originally Posted by angrysoba

And the virus could have got into the market through the wild-life trade, which means that it likely came from a rural wild-life farm.

However, there is still a lot that is unknown.

It could have come from the lab. "Likely came from a rural wild-life farm" is bull ****. No trail has been found be it from frozen food to the wildlife farms to the mine in Yunnan to the caves in Laos.

As for finding the furin cleavage site in the wild, sure, it was in a different bat species but recombinant coronaviruses are found in bats. That fact doesn't provide a smoking gun.