Continuation General UK Politics III - Dumb and Dumber

[Wudang]

That's from 2020 and he lost to Starmer.

[Vixen]

Unfortunately, the infighting in the Labour Party continues.

[3point14]

Originally Posted by dudalb

The point is led Labor to a series of defeats in situations where they could have won.
He failed i nthe first job of a party leader: Get his party elected.
IMHO he was too far to the left to be an acceptable alternative by the british press, but since you share his left wing views I know you will never accept that.

Fixed that for you.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Vixen

https://twitter.com/YouGov/status/12...FsZTNJ3bPCWsAg

Yes, popular among Labour Party members in 2020 after members like me had already left the party leaving mostly only the old Trots and students.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by dudalb

The point is led Labor to a series of defeats in situations where they could have won....snip..

The loyal opposition can only lose seats, is that what you are talking about with a "series" of defeats?

[Wudang]

Originally Posted by dudalb

The point is led Labor to a series of defeats in situations where they could have won.
He failed i nthe first job of a party leader: Get his party elected.
IMHO he was too far to the left to be an acceptable alternative, but since you share his left wing views I know you will never accept that.

I share a good few of his left wing views. Doesn't change the fact that he was useless as a leader. "Constructive ambiguity" my self-censored elided.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by The Don

Yes, popular among Labour Party members in 2020 after members like me had already left the party leaving mostly only the old Trots and students.

Disagree with you, there was a hell of a lot more than the "old trots and students" who celebrated his rise. There was a swell of optimism about having a "real labour" labour leader that went far beyond the usual party members. The issue was that most people who were optimistic weren't aware of his actual political history and he was an ineffectual politician never mind leader.

[Darat]

But I do think it is amazing how he is still being actively pilloried and blamed for what the Tories did and are doing.

[Darat]

Originally Posted by dudalb

The point is led Labor to a series of defeats in situations where they could have won.
He failed i nthe first job of a party leader: Get his party elected.
IMHO he was too far to the left to be an acceptable alternative, but since you share his left wing views I know you will never accept that.

(Got my responses mixed up.)

In the strange alternate-facts world we live in it is a sad fact that when not told the political party that originated a policy most people in the UK will agree more with Labour's proposed policies than the Tories.

[3point14]

Originally Posted by Darat

(Got my responses mixed up.)

In the strange alternate-facts world we live in it is a sad fact that when not told the political party that originated a policy most people in the UK will agree more with Labour's proposed policies than the Tories.

True.

I suspect this is part of the problem...

https://www.reddit.com/r/LeopardsAte..._disaster_our/

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Darat

(Got my responses mixed up.)

In the strange alternate-facts world we live in it is a sad fact that when not told the political party that originated a policy most people in the UK will agree more with Labour's proposed policies than the Tories.

....and it's the same in the US when it comes to Democratic Party policies.

[Mr Fied]

Originally Posted by Darat

(Got my responses mixed up.)

In the strange alternate-facts world we live in it is a sad fact that when not told the political party that originated a policy most people in the UK will agree more with Labour's proposed policies than the Tories.

Totally agree with this.

However, although many may approve of Labour's social and economic policies, listening to what is being said in the workplace, pub, high street etc, the overiding issue I hear is still immigration. Yes, this is being pushed by the right wing media to scare the "ordinary" person into voting Tory, but unfortunately it seems to work. It doesn't seem to matter how much they **** up the country, as long as they are the party for the racists they will continue to get their majority of English seats.

How we change the xenophobic/racist nature of many I have no idea, but until we do the Tories have a high chance of staying in power.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by GlennB

Yeah, that cheered me up. Briefly.

IMG-20220905-WA0000.jpg

[Carrot Flower King]

Originally Posted by Darat

(Got my responses mixed up.)

In the strange alternate-facts world we live in it is a sad fact that when not told the political party that originated a policy most people in the UK will agree more with Labour's proposed policies than the Tories.

Quite: I have a Tory-voting neighbour (they told me; I didn't ask), who thinks the Newcastle Chronicle is "too Labour" FFS, but, as an ex-railway bod, their views on transport issues are closer to Labour and their views on NHS matters (there are quite a few ex-NHS bods in the village) are far more Labour than Tory, likewise several other issues. But they will not vote Labour...

[Carrot Flower King]

And I wonder if Truss knows that she has actually given Tory Girl a huuuuuuuge poisoned chalice in making her Transport Secretary?

Tory Girl, going back to when she was the local Tory PPC, has made a lot of noise about sorting out transport up here, especially the single carriage farm track that passes for most of the A1 north of Morpeth. These are things which manyof her constituents feel very strongly about. She's got away with it since 2015, as she was a backbencher, then in non-transport gubbmint roles, but now...

If she hasn't at least been seen to try to do something by the next GE...

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

Quite: I have a Tory-voting neighbour (they told me; I didn't ask), who thinks the Newcastle Chronicle is "too Labour" FFS, but, as an ex-railway bod, their views on transport issues are closer to Labour and their views on NHS matters (there are quite a few ex-NHS bods in the village) are far more Labour than Tory, likewise several other issues. But they will not vote Labour...

Now I'm getting more er old (I don't ever recall signing up for that) - a lot of my friends and acquaintances are older and finding they need the NHS much more than ever. They are all constantly complaining, how terrible it is, no GP appointments, can't get a scan, it's all about money and so on and I really thought it would be a "wedge" issue. Yet they just do not seem to be able to understand that their Tory vote is why it is in the state it is - the general attitude is it would be worse under Labour or it IS Labour's fault because of the global financial crash their policies caused or Labour didn't put enough money into the NHS.....

(I live in one of the safest Tory constituencies so never expect to see a great change but you would have thought it would have at least had people considering who to vote for.)

[Darat]

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

And I wonder if Truss knows that she has actually given Tory Girl a huuuuuuuge poisoned chalice in making her Transport Secretary?

Tory Girl, going back to when she was the local Tory PPC, has made a lot of noise about sorting out transport up here, especially the single carriage farm track that passes for most of the A1 north of Morpeth. These are things which manyof her constituents feel very strongly about. She's got away with it since 2015, as she was a backbencher, then in non-transport gubbmint roles, but now...

If she hasn't at least been seen to try to do something by the next GE...

It's been upgraded?

[The Don]

Originally Posted by Carrot Flower King

And I wonder if Truss knows that she has actually given Tory Girl a huuuuuuuge poisoned chalice in making her Transport Secretary?

Tory Girl, going back to when she was the local Tory PPC, has made a lot of noise about sorting out transport up here, especially the single carriage farm track that passes for most of the A1 north of Morpeth. These are things which manyof her constituents feel very strongly about. She's got away with it since 2015, as she was a backbencher, then in non-transport gubbmint roles, but now...

If she hasn't at least been seen to try to do something by the next GE...

It's still Labour's, and in particular Jeremy Corbyn's fault.

It's probably because there's at least one Labour Party councillor in the area.

[erwinl]

Originally Posted by The Don

It's still Labour's, and in particular Jeremy Corbyn's fault.

It's probably because there's at least one Labour Party councillor in the area.

In the end it is the British voter that is ultimately at blame.
No matter if Labour, or Corbyn in particular, was not the perfect antidote against the Tories, in the end the voters went with the Tory option.
No matter by voting for Tory, or by abstaining voting for Labour.

If the effective choice is between A and B, and the only way to stop A is by letting B win, then every vote not for B (be they for C or abstaining) is in effect a vote for A.
This is the unfortunate result of the British (and American) political system.
Maybe a better system is needed? One where minor parties can also be of influence and where the endresult of a majority government does automaically mean they have the vote of the majority of the voters behind them.
Does mean that there have to be compromises and a willingness of working together with people of other parties though.

[3point14]

Originally Posted by erwinl

Maybe a better system is needed?

I believe the current system is working exactly as intended by those that benefit from it.

We had a vote a while ago on, I think, Single transferable vote, which was trashed by the press and therefore lost.

Anything that is likely to lead to a loss of power for the Tories or a shift leftwards in the overton window (which has travelled so far right that taxing the rich is now seen as 'loony left') will be trashed by the billionnaire, tax-exile owned press.

We're ******.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by Mr Fied

Totally agree with this.

However, although many may approve of Labour's social and economic policies, listening to what is being said in the workplace, pub, high street etc, the overiding issue I hear is still immigration. Yes, this is being pushed by the right wing media to scare the "ordinary" person into voting Tory, but unfortunately it seems to work. It doesn't seem to matter how much they **** up the country, as long as they are the party for the racists they will continue to get their majority of English seats.

How we change the xenophobic/racist nature of many I have no idea, but until we do the Tories have a high chance of staying in power.

Well, Truss might have done something to nudge the racist votes away with her diverse choice of ministers. Just today I saw a Facebook comment "She's not for Britain. Just look at her cabinet."

[wobs]

Look North last night interviewed people in Grimsby. Many lamented how good Johnson was, and wsa sad he was gone, given he got us through Brexit/Covid etc.

I had to turn it off. Is this view about Johnson that common?

[The Don]

Originally Posted by wobs

Look North last night interviewed people in Grimsby. Many lamented how good Johnson was, and wsa sad he was gone, given he got us through Brexit/Covid etc.

I had to turn it off. Is this view about Johnson that common?

In my experience, yes. Many (most) people are comprehensively underinformed.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by wobs

Look North last night interviewed people in Grimsby. Many lamented how good Johnson was, and wsa sad he was gone, given he got us through Brexit/Covid etc.

I had to turn it off. Is this view about Johnson that common?

I get the impression that yes, astonishingly it is.

We might roll our eyes at those Russians who get their news from state TV and think Putin's special military action is a noble cause rescuing Ukrainians from the evil Nazis among them, but people here who get their news from the Mail and Express have the delusion that Boris is a new Churchill who Got Brexit Done and steered us through Covid.

[Jack by the hedge]

Originally Posted by erwinl

In the end it is the British voter that is ultimately at blame.
No matter if Labour, or Corbyn in particular, was not the perfect antidote against the Tories, in the end the voters went with the Tory option.
No matter by voting for Tory, or by abstaining voting for Labour.

If the effective choice is between A and B, and the only way to stop A is by letting B win, then every vote not for B (be they for C or abstaining) is in effect a vote for A.
This is the unfortunate result of the British (and American) political system.
Maybe a better system is needed? One where minor parties can also be of influence and where the endresult of a majority government does automaically mean they have the vote of the majority of the voters behind them.
Does mean that there have to be compromises and a willingness of working together with people of other parties though.

It feels as if we're in the early-mid 1990s, with a Tory government that's been in power too long and a change is desperately needed. But the difference this time is there isn't an alternative which convinces enough voters it would be a competent replacement. Back then we had John Smith looking as trustworthy and sensible as an old-style bank manager, allaying the fears of more reactionary voters about what Labour might do if given power. Sadly he didn't live to see it, but fundamentally, then as now it was a wide open goal, the Tories were a complete ******** and all Labour had to do was look electable. Under Smith (and eventually Blair) they did.

[jimbob]

Originally Posted by dudalb

Ress Mogg , Climate deneir, now has position in Truss's energy program
GOd Rees Mogg is going to be bad news. he comes off alike the classic Brit Aristocrat who thinks the lower classed should knew their place and take off their hats when the local squire walks by.

It's a cultivated personna.

He's a Steve Bannon, but hiding behind a fuddy-duddy image that distracts from his radical right-wing authoritarianism.

I've seen him described as a "comedy fascist" and the person pointing that out 2as saying that the comedy is intentional.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by The Don

Yes, popular among Labour Party members in 2020 after members like me had already left the party leaving mostly only the old Trots and students.

Only some of the members as well. I was a member in 2020 and I never got asked.

Had I been I'd have been lukewarm. Generally liked his policies, thought he was election suicide for the party.

[MarkCorrigan]

Originally Posted by wobs

Look North last night interviewed people in Grimsby. Many lamented how good Johnson was, and wsa sad he was gone, given he got us through Brexit/Covid etc.

I had to turn it off. Is this view about Johnson that common?

Yup. The most popular newspapers in the UK are the Sun and the Mail. The average Brit is staggeringly ill informed and/or delusional and/or stupid.

[Carrot Flower King]

Originally Posted by Darat

It's been upgraded?

Well, there's the dualled bit from the Coquet to Alnwick and then the race track by Brownieside, where all the regular users warp speed by the trucks and caravans before you are back on farm track until the Scottish border.

Several of my managers never believed us about how long it really takes to get from Alnwick to Berwick, as they'd just look at a map and say "20 minutes, surely?". We'd all give a hollow laugh and ask them to drive us up there in that time...I shed the time equivalent of 4-5 appointments a week to allow for getting between Alnwick and Berwick.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Just as the great British public rebelled against Cameron ordering them to vote Remain and then voting for Truss instead of the MP's choice, Sunak - albeit by only a small portion of the population

Bollocks.
The membership of the Conservative party voted for Truss, around 160,000 people out of 48 million, or one in three hundred. And an utterly unrepresentative proportion, either by age, location, gender, ethnicity or personal wealth.
Around 64% male, >95% "white British", >80% ABC1, median age 57.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by Vixen

You have obviously been looking at Fox News and the Murdoch press because actually Corbyn was very popular. He had more votes than Starmer.

Like Truss he was popular with a tiny group unrepresentative of the electorate in general.

[catsmate]

Originally Posted by The Don

Yes, popular among Labour Party members in 2020 after members like me had already left the party leaving mostly only the old Trots and students.

Labour party (not to certain members regarding the correct spelling) members number ~415,000. Out of an electorate of 48 million.

[Filippo Lippi]

Liz Truss says she won't impose a windfall tax on energy companies because people want to keep "their money in their pockets"

The lies continue

[Vixen]

Originally Posted by catsmate

Bollocks.
The membership of the Conservative party voted for Truss, around 160,000 people out of 48 million, or one in three hundred. And an utterly unrepresentative proportion, either by age, location, gender, ethnicity or personal wealth.
Around 64% male, >95% "white British", >80% ABC1, median age 57.

I did say:

'-albeit by only a small portion of the population'.

Do keep up.

[The Don]

Originally Posted by catsmate

Labour party (not to certain members regarding the correct spelling) members number ~415,000. Out of an electorate of 48 million.

Glass houses, stones

[Vixen]

Oh well, the jubilant party scenes as depicted by the tabloids 'In Liz We Truss' and something about 'deliver, deliver, deliver', has the FT raining on its parade. This is the paper of the ruling classes telling the ruling classes how things really are.

"Markets Shudder as Pound Slides at Scale of Challenge Facing Truss".

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Oh well, the jubilant party scenes as depicted by the tabloids 'In Liz We Truss' and something about 'deliver, deliver, deliver', has the FT raining on its parade. This is the paper of the ruling classes telling the ruling classes how things really are.

"Markets Shudder as Pound Slides at Scale of Challenge Facing Truss".

Business is brutally realistic, and they are under no delusions about Truss's abilities as a leader.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by catsmate

Like Truss he was popular with a tiny group unrepresentative of the electorate in general.

This is why I am not crazy about the way the Parties in the UK end up selecting a leader;IMHO the rank and film party member should have a much more direct say in who will lead the party. the way things stand it is far too easy in both parties for a small clique to get their person in.

[dudalb]

Originally Posted by MarkCorrigan

Yup. The most popular newspapers in the UK are the Sun and the Mail. The average Brit is staggeringly ill informed and/or delusional and/or stupid.

When I first went to the UK, I was shocked by what the main papers are like.

[GlennB]

Originally Posted by Vixen

Oh well, the jubilant party scenes as depicted by the tabloids 'In Liz We Truss' and something about 'deliver, deliver, deliver', has the FT raining on its parade. This is the paper of the ruling classes telling the ruling classes how things really are.

"Markets Shudder as Pound Slides at Scale of Challenge Facing Truss".

Seems to me that the FT has been, for a long time, the most reasonable and realistic of the right-wing papers.