Missouri Book Ban Law Proposal

[bruto]

Originally Posted by thaiboxerken

Remember when it was conservatives that were warning that banning books was a commie/librul value?

Alas, I'm old enough to remember when it as Conservatives trying to do what they're trying to do all over again. The main difference is that now when someone asks "have you no decency," the answer is likely to be "make me."

[Carlotta]

Originally Posted by Warp12

Could you provide a link to the article you reference?

Assuming what the article says is true (not sure either way), and the state can provide such a system, would you agree with it, conceptually?

Like, using an extreme example, let's say the rules allow your 9-year-old to check out the Kama Sutra. As a parent, you don't want this. Is there a problem with a system to honor the wishes of the parent?

I worked for my local library system for over 40 years. I didn't ever see anyone check out the Kama Sutra. If it was available, it was not in the general collection. This is not an issue.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by Carlotta

I worked for my local library system for over 40 years. I didn't ever see anyone check out the Kama Sutra. If it was available, it was not in the general collection. This is not an issue.

It still amazes me that people keep harping on that book. As I stated more than once, it was presented as an extreme example....not as a specific concern. It is a metaphor for child-questionable materials.

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Warp12

It still amazes me that people keep harping on that book. As I stated more than once, it was presented as an extreme example....not as a specific concern. It is a metaphor for child-questionable materials.

Perhaps you didn't learn from the last time you resorted to a non-existent problem to demonstrate the need to have a law to prevent it.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by Warp12

It still amazes me that people keep harping on that book. As I stated more than once, it was presented as an extreme example....not as a specific concern. It is a metaphor for child-questionable materials.

Now tell me if I am doing this right, Warp. According to the Warp Debate Method at this point I am supposed to say something like:

"Harping on that book. This is funny, funny stuff."

or,

"That post is just too funny, LOL!!!"

How'd I do?

Now I am supposed to declare victory and flee the thread, or do I feign boredom and just slink away?

[Hercules56]

Originally Posted by Warp12

The point isn't the exact book, obviously. It is just used as an example.

Nothing wrong with libraries having books about sexuality.

[Apathia]

Originally Posted by Hercules56

Nothing wrong with libraries having books about sexuality.

Thanks to parental neglect (No one gave me the talk or the secret book.), most of what I learned about reproductive anatomy and physiology came from books in the library.
Something frightening happened to my body, but thank goodness there were books available to explain to me that I wasn't dying.

In those days there was no such thing as sex education in school, but thank goodness there were books in the library.

[Apathia]

Originally Posted by bruto

Alas, I'm old enough to remember when it as Conservatives trying to do what they're trying to do all over again. The main difference is that now when someone asks "have you no decency," the answer is likely to be "make me."

So sadly true.

[johnny karate]

Originally Posted by Warp12

It still amazes me that people keep harping on that book. As I stated more than once, it was presented as an extreme example....not as a specific concern. It is a metaphor for child-questionable materials.

It amazes me that people keep referring to the specific example I provided after it turned out it was a bad example. And no, I will not be providing any other examples for this problem that I insist exists.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by Warp12

It still amazes me that people keep harping on that book. As I stated more than once, it was presented as an extreme example....not as a specific concern. It is a metaphor for child-questionable materials.

Originally Posted by johnny karate

It amazes me that people keep referring to the specific example I provided after it turned out it was a bad example. And no, I will not be providing any other examples for this problem that I insist exists.

What Warp is avoiding talking about are the raft of children's books which, in an age appropriate manner, explain why Suzy has two mommies, why Johny's daddy is married to another man and why Gretta's mother isn't pregnant any more but doesn't have a baby.

These books scare the crap out of right wing nuts because they feel they normalize homosexuality, abortion and the rest of the stuff they fear and loath.

He talks about the Kama Sutra so he won't have to deal with the issue of how and when we explain to children what's going on in the world around them.

The irony is that despite his conservative leanings he would leave that up to an all powerful state.

[Susheel]

Originally Posted by arayder

Now tell me if I am doing this right, Warp. According to the Warp Debate Method at this point I am supposed to say something like:

"Harping on that book. This is funny, funny stuff."

or,

"That post is just too funny, LOL!!!"

How'd I do?

Now I am supposed to declare victory and flee the thread, or do I feign boredom and just slink away?

We could call it the Warp Waffle...

[TheGoldcountry]

Originally Posted by Apathia

Thanks to parental neglect (No one gave me the talk or the secret book.), most of what I learned about reproductive anatomy and physiology came from books in the library.
Something frightening happened to my body, but thank goodness there were books available to explain to me that I wasn't dying.

In those days there was no such thing as sex education in school, but thank goodness there were books in the library.

This was my experience as well. One afternoon in the library reading books about puberty and reproduction dispelled all the myths I had been picking up from school, where this stuff wasn't being taught. (Rather, being taught in such an obtuse manner that you had no idea what they were talking about because the corresponding body parts weren't referenced or described at all.)

In general, life without a library would have really sucked when I was a kid.

[seayakin]

Originally Posted by arayder

What Warp is avoiding talking about are the raft of children's books which, in an age appropriate manner, explain why Suzy has two mommies, why Johny's daddy is married to another man and why Gretta's mother isn't pregnant any more but doesn't have a baby.

These books scare the crap out of right wing nuts because they feel they normalize homosexuality, abortion and the rest of the stuff they fear and loath.

He talks about the Kama Sutra so he won't have to deal with the issue of how and when we explain to children what's going on in the world around them.

The irony is that despite his conservative leanings he would leave that up to an all powerful state.

This is the crux of the conservative position. Specifically, they don't want children to read books that include

The Bluest Eye by Toni Morrison
Captain Underpants Series
My Moms Love Me
A Wrinkle In Time
Where the Wild Things are
Going Viral: A Socially Distant Lovestory
Rainbow Revolutions

And there are lot of other titles that could be listed. It is never about blocking access to the Kama Sutra or Penthouse for that matter.

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Originally Posted by Warp12

It still amazes me that people keep harping on that book. As I stated more than once, it was presented as an extreme example....not as a specific concern. It is a metaphor for child-questionable materials.

That's true at least.

It's really a law to ensure a small vocal portion of close minded bigots will be able to prevent their teenagers from reading things that do not agree with their views.

The best way to raise new trumpists is to make sure they are never educated or able to educate themselves.

[sackett]

Question: Does this proposed law have a provision for citizens to praise specific books and to recommend their acquisition by libraries?

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by sackett

Question: Does this proposed law have a provision for citizens to praise specific books and to recommend their acquisition by libraries?

I don't think that is what the legislation is attempting to address. However, I agree that there should be procedures in place for such. That has equal merit to procedures for challenging existing material.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by sackett

Question: Does this proposed law have a provision for citizens to praise specific books and to recommend their acquisition by libraries?

Originally Posted by Warp12

I don't think that is what the legislation is attempting to address. However, I agree that there should be procedures in place for such. That has equal merit to procedures for challenging existing material.

Oh, for crying out loud !

Most literate people who frequent libraries know that if you go up to the desk and ask for this or that "great new book" which the library doesn't have they will get in on loan from another branch library (if there is another branch) or use, if possible, their discretionary funds to buy it.

[Cat Not Included]

Originally Posted by Warp12

It still amazes me that people keep harping on that book. As I stated more than once, it was presented as an extreme example....not as a specific concern. It is a metaphor for child-questionable materials.

Well, since you came up with an 'extreme example' and most people aren't seeing any problems at all, perhaps that's a good indication there really aren't any problems?

What's an example of a book you consider an actual problem, and why are the consequences of children reading it so dire that we needs laws to address it?

[bruto]

Originally Posted by arayder

Oh, for crying out loud !

Most literate people who frequent libraries know that if you go up to the desk and ask for this or that "great new book" which the library doesn't have they will get in on loan from another branch library (if there is another branch) or use, if possible, their discretionary funds to buy it.

Agreed. It's not really the realm of this law. Even if it were, though, I doubt it would be in it, because this, like most such laws, is purely negative. It's not in any way a law intended to broaden, improve, enlarge or enhance anything. It's not in any way intended to make people wiser, more tolerant or more thoughtful.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by arayder

Oh, for crying out loud !

Most literate people who frequent libraries know that if you go up to the desk and ask for this or that "great new book" which the library doesn't have they will get in on loan from another branch library (if there is another branch) or use, if possible, their discretionary funds to buy it.

So, you agree with me...and there are already procedures in place. Good.

I wasn't the one who brought it up. I just addressed the question.

I mean, why should such not be a requirement for a public, state-funded library?

It is pretty wild, some of the mock-outrage expressed around here.

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by Warp12

It is pretty wild, some of the mock-outrage expressed around here.

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Warp12

So, you agree with me...and there are already procedures in place. Good.

I wasn't the one who brought it up. I just addressed the question.

I mean, why should such not be a requirement for a public, state-funded library?

It is pretty wild, some of the mock-outrage expressed around here.

It would appear that it's a policy. Whether it's a requirement or not, and whether it is in any way tied to state funding, though, I do not know. The law under question is a requirement, and is tied to state funding. It does not specify how a good or useful library should do, only what it will be forbidden to do.

The main question is whether the polices of individual current libraries and librarians is so deficient, and so impervious to the enforcement of community standards or other rules set by their current situation, that a new fits-all law must be passed.

Apart from hypothetical extremes, brought up and then disingeunously disavowed, we've seen little if any evidence that any public libraries in Missouri are supplying harmful or pornographic work to children now.

[Susheel]

Originally Posted by Warp12

It is pretty wild, some of the mock-outrage expressed around here.

OK...my irony meter just broke.

[sackett]

When I asked my little question, I already knew that of course the righties had no notion of anything constructive. Remember: Reactionaries can only destroy.

Oddly, if this current attack on the human spirit goes forward, it will have a result that Ashpit and his clones certainly never intended: the democratization of public libraries.

Surely a good thing, right? No, not for an instant. Because only negative opinions will be heard, the libraries will be at the mercy of the communities' lowest elements, the bigots, haters, zealots, and everybody else who craves attention without responsibility.

That's only pseudo-democracy, of course. Maybe that's what the Missouri Chrrrrrristianz are after. I'm damned if I'll put anything past them.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by sackett

Question: Does this proposed law have a provision for citizens to praise specific books and to recommend their acquisition by libraries?

Originally Posted by Warp12

I don't think that is what the legislation is attempting to address. However, I agree that there should be procedures in place for such. That has equal merit to procedures for challenging existing material.

Originally Posted by sackett

When I asked my little question, I already knew that of course the righties had no notion of anything constructive. Remember: Reactionaries can only destroy.

So then you don't think there should procedures in place that allow for suggesting materials to be added? You don't think it is an equally valid concern? I don't understand your point, or reasoning behind the question.

If they added something of that sort to the legislation, would that change your opinion? Would you be much more likely to endorse it then?

[bruto]

Originally Posted by Warp12

So then you don't think there should procedures in place that allow for suggesting materials to be added? You don't think it is an equally valid concern? I don't understand your point, or reasoning behind the question.

If they added something of that sort to the legislation, would that change your opinion? Would you be much more likely to endorse it then?

If the proposal is deemed objectionable, adding a rider doesn't make it less so, especially if it doesn't accomplish anything anyway. In this case, libraries already have what appears to be an effective policy of responding to requests for new materials.

[Stacyhs]

This is nothing more that the right-wing manufacturing a crisis for its base to get its knickers all in twist over. CRT, replacement theory, BLM, strengthening gun laws...it's all just more fear mongering. Fear is what the right-wing uses to herd their lemmings right off the cliff.

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by arayder

Now tell me if I am doing this right, Warp. According to the Warp Debate Method at this point I am supposed to say something like:

"Harping on that book. This is funny, funny stuff."

or,

"That post is just too funny, LOL!!!"

How'd I do?

Now I am supposed to declare victory and flee the thread, or do I feign boredom and just slink away?

Don't forget, "I'm not going to repeat myself", in the apparent hope that people will think you offered any evidence in the first place.

[Foster Zygote]

Warp, do you have any actual examples of children being granted access to sexually explicit materials so frequently as to warrant a change in policy for all libraries in Missouri, or anywhere else? The fact that you had to present a hypothetical "extreme example" rather than even a single actual occurrence suggests that you reflexively supported a conservative issue without weighing its merit. Starting with a desired conclusion and then trying to construct an argument leading to it is the opposite of critical thinking.

[Foster Zygote]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs

This is nothing more that the right-wing manufacturing a crisis for its base to get its knickers all in twist over. CRT, replacement theory, BLM, strengthening gun laws...it's all just more fear mongering. Fear is what the right-wing uses to herd their lemmings right off the cliff.

And most of the people targeted for such histrionic manipulation aren't going to be patrons of libraries, let alone the sort of people who do much reading at all. So it's safe to target them. The same people are much more likely to use the internet on a daily basis, however, so it wouldn't do to propose restricting access to it, even though the likelihood of minors accessing genuinely pornographic materials on line is orders of magnitude greater.

[bruto]

I suspect if such a program is actually implemented, it might suffer the same fate as Virginia governor Youngkin's hot tip line wherein students were encouraged to report instances of "divisive" teaching, etc. Aside from malicious compliance, it suffered, it seems, from the compliance of nuts, including complaints that someone was sympathetic to immigrants, and another that a teacher suggested Beowulf was sexist. It apparently has quietly shut down.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by Foster Zygote

Don't forget, "I'm not going to repeat myself", in the apparent hope that people will think you offered any evidence in the first place.

Warp came here to "trigger the libs" and entertain himself. But it turns out he's the entertainment.

[Carlotta]

I can only speak for the library system I worked for, but there have been methods for asking for a book to be ordered for the collection, for borrowing from other systems if it isn't, or for registering a complaint about materials. This has been the case since it would have been a paper form. It all can be done on line, now.

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by Carlotta

I can only speak for the library system I worked for, but there have been methods for asking for a book to be ordered for the collection, for borrowing from other systems if it isn't, or for registering a complaint about materials. This has been the case since it would have been a paper form. It all can be done on line, now.

So then you are saying that procedures for such things make sense and are a good idea?

[Carlotta]

I'm saying these procedures are already in place and do not need legislation.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by Carlotta

I can only speak for the library system I worked for, but there have been methods for asking for a book to be ordered for the collection, for borrowing from other systems if it isn't, or for registering a complaint about materials. This has been the case since it would have been a paper form. It all can be done on line, now.

Originally Posted by Warp12

So then you are saying that procedures for such things make sense and are a good idea?

I know let's pass a law that says school buses have to stop at railroad crossings and when they stop to let kids off, the bus lights have to flash and a big "stop" sign has to swing out from the side of the bus!

Let's make a law that says cars have to have seat belts and that everybody has to use them!

Let's make another one that says the manufacturers of medicines have put the possible side effects of the medicine on the side to the medicine bottles!

Don't stop me. I'm on a roll. . .

Let's pass a law that says. . . .

[Warp12]

Originally Posted by Carlotta

I'm saying these procedures are already in place and do not need legislation.

I am pretty sure that you can't speak for every library system. It doesn't seem that they are required to comply with any particular standards.

What you have identified is the need for such policies and procedures to be in place. Why on earth shouldn't this be a documented requirement for state-funded libraries?

It makes no sense to be against such a thing. Unless you want totally arbitrary policies, procedures, and application of such.

[arayder]

Originally Posted by Warp12

I am pretty sure that you can't speak for every library system. It doesn't seem that they are required to comply with any particular standards.

What you have identified is the need for such policies and procedures to be in place. Why on earth shouldn't this be a documented requirement for state-funded libraries?

It makes no sense to be against such a thing. Unless you want totally arbitrary policies, procedures, and application of such.

So pointing out that something already exists is being against it?

[Chris_Halkides]

Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides

Several of the things that are in there, our library district is already doing this," said [executive director of the Springfield-Greene County Library Regina Greer] Cooper. "We already have policies — we have a collections materials policy. We have librarians who are well trained — we buy things that are age appropriate and designated for certain ages. We place them in the library in the appropriate place for those age groups.” KCUR

It seems to me that the onus is on Mr. Ashcroft to explain what is wrong with the present system, then how his reform addresses it without causing additional problems.

[Upchurch]

Originally Posted by Chris_Halkides

It seems to me that the onus is on Mr. Ashcroft to explain what is wrong with the present system, then how his reform addresses it without causing additional problems.

My guess the current system is missing the “punish/defund public libraries” feature.