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Old 8th March 2018, 02:29 PM   #2801
Ron_Tomkins
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
In the context of an established relationship things are different. Otherwise you would be rather like trump and just kissing women when you find them attractive and think they are giving you the eye. But I am sure you are a real man and would never ask or talk about sex.
Well, the first date my girlfriend and I went on, at the end of it I approached her and just kissed her without saying "Excuse me miss, I would like to announce that I am now going to kiss you". As matter of fact, that was the first time I didn't do that. I used to always say "Can I kiss you?" before kissing a woman for the first time. But this time I just went for it. And she actually liked that. So there's that.
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:36 PM   #2802
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And I haven't seen anything that famous witch hunts had hits against those people. McCarthy didn't even find the people you describe. Zero hits.
And that matters how? #metoo has ********** up the lives of a people with no evidence they did anything wrong. Jian Ghomeshi, Aziz Ansari, etc., just like witch hunts and the child satanic cult scandals did.

You conveniently ignore the fact that child abusers exist and that indeed some were caught using the huge umbrella of satanic cult accusarions and that there were in fact communists in Hollywood who had their lives destroyed although being a communist was not illegal.

That's a lot of twisting the facts just so you can excuse the current witch hunt where innocent people have been caught up. And even if innocent people haven't been caught up, it is absurd to assume they wouldn't be. That's why they are called witch hunts.
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:36 PM   #2803
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All "Established relationship" does is shift the hair splitting nonsense to another angle as the nuance-phobic demand we define exactly how long the relationship takes to be "established."
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:45 PM   #2804
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
And that matters how? #metoo has ********** up the lives of a people with no evidence they did anything wrong. Jian Ghomeshi, Aziz Ansari, etc., just like witch hunts and the child satanic cult scandals did.

You conveniently ignore the fact that child abusers exist and that indeed some were caught using the huge umbrella of satanic cult accusarions and that there were in fact communists in Hollywood who had their lives destroyed although being a communist was not illegal.

That's a lot of twisting the facts just so you can excuse the current witch hunt where innocent people have been caught up. And even if innocent people haven't been caught up, it is absurd to assume they wouldn't be. That's why they are called witch hunts.
Aziz Ansari did something wrong.
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:46 PM   #2805
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Well, the first date my girlfriend and I went on, at the end of it I approached her and just kissed her without saying "Excuse me miss, I would like to announce that I am now going to kiss you". As matter of fact, that was the first time I didn't do that. I used to always say "Can I kiss you?" before kissing a woman for the first time. But this time I just went for it. And she actually liked that. So there's that.
I had chatted up a woman for several weeks before asking her out for dinner. When I picked her up I asked, "Are you going to sleep with me tonight?"

She was kinda shocked but we had talked a lot so she knew me pretty well and simply said, "Not a chance!"

"Okay," I replied, "I'm not paying for your dinner!"

She had a good chuckle over that, we went to dinner, had a great time, went for a long walk and talked, then ended up back at her place where we engaged in some pretty hot sex. When we were done after about an hour I said, "Well, I guess I owe you dinner!"

Her response was "You're gonna owe me a hell of a lot more than that before we're done tonight!" And she was right.
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:49 PM   #2806
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Aziz Ansari did something wrong.
No, he didn't. He had consensual sex with "Grace" and she regretted it the next day. That's by her own admission.
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:51 PM   #2807
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
No, he didn't. He had consensual sex with "Grace" and she regretted it the next day. That's by her own admission.
And it was wrong for him to have sex with her in the manner that he did, regardless of consent.
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:51 PM   #2808
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
No, he didn't. He had consensual sex with "Grace" and she regretted it the next day. That's by her own admission.
There was a failure of communication. That always means at least two people are at fault. So yes, he did something wrong.
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:52 PM   #2809
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
that there were in fact communists in Hollywood who had their lives destroyed although being a communist was not illegal.
Because I mentioned Joseph McCarthy. He didnt investigate Hollywood. That was a house committee. McCarthy was a senator.
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:56 PM   #2810
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Why? He knows you won't stop interacting with his old material.
Does he?
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:57 PM   #2811
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Originally Posted by ponderingturtle View Post
In the context of an established relationship things are different. Otherwise you would be rather like trump and just kissing women when you find them attractive and think they are giving you the eye. But I am sure you are a real man and would never ask or talk about sex.
Here's that word again. Who are you and what have you done to ponderingturtle?
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Old 8th March 2018, 03:24 PM   #2812
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Originally Posted by ahhell View Post
There was a failure of communication. That always means at least two people are at fault. So yes, he did something wrong.
No miscommunication. She admitted she consented and then regretted that decision in the morning but then she still went on to try ruin his life. **** her.
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Old 8th March 2018, 03:31 PM   #2813
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
No miscommunication. She admitted she consented and then regretted that decision in the morning but then she still went on to try ruin his life. **** her.
And his behaviour was wrong and he has earned the consequences of that.
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Old 8th March 2018, 03:51 PM   #2814
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And his behaviour was wrong and he has earned the consequences of that.
He got explicit consent and his behaviour was appropriate by Grace's own admission. Grace is an asshat and #metoo is a modern witch hunt.
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:12 PM   #2815
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The upcoming Women's March in DC just lost my support with this:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...-semitism.html

Louis the Louse is a bigot,and trying to defend him is detestable.
Mallory should be forced out of her position.
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:28 PM   #2816
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The upcoming Women's March in DC just lost my support with this:

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer...-semitism.html

Louis the Louse is a bigot,and trying to defend him is detestable.
Mallory should be forced out of her position.
It's funny how Trump's alleged crypto-racism is completely clear and ripe for unequivocal denunciation. But Farrakhan's overt racism is a difficult ethical conundrum that requires weeks of secret discussion and careful triangulation of any public censure.
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:33 PM   #2817
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
It's funny how Trump's alleged crypto-racism is completely clear and ripe for unequivocal denunciation. But Farrakhan's overt racism is a difficult ethical conundrum that requires weeks of secret discussion and careful triangulation of any public censure.

IMHO both are bigots and both deserve to be condemned.

And trying to deny Trump's bigotry is getting harder and harder......
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:34 PM   #2818
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
I had chatted up a woman for several weeks before asking her out for dinner. When I picked her up I asked, "Are you going to sleep with me tonight?"

She was kinda shocked but we had talked a lot so she knew me pretty well and simply said, "Not a chance!"

"Okay," I replied, "I'm not paying for your dinner!"

She had a good chuckle over that, we went to dinner, had a great time, went for a long walk and talked, then ended up back at her place where we engaged in some pretty hot sex. When we were done after about an hour I said, "Well, I guess I owe you dinner!"

Her response was "You're gonna owe me a hell of a lot more than that before we're done tonight!" And she was right.
Hahahaha, I love that story. Sounds like you two had a very relaxed chemistry right from the start.
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:48 PM   #2819
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Criticizing #metoo in terms of fandom/trendiness isn't a great strategy. The same could easily be said about the criticism of #metoo: It's a fandom all of its own. You shouldn't poison the groundwater that we all drink from.
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:50 PM   #2820
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
And trying to deny Trump's bigotry is getting harder and harder......
Sure. I'll stipulate that, no questions. On the other hand, Farrakhan's bigotry has been flatly undeniable for years. And look at the double standard:

Trump is probably a bigot? Women marching in the streets! With pussy hats!

Farrakhan is obviously a bigot? We must be careful to work together.
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:54 PM   #2821
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Originally Posted by ginjawarrior View Post
as much as we'd all like we cannot pretend like they dont exist

a little bit of sunshine lighting up their nonsense shows all the other lurkers the nonsense the trolls are trying to feed everyone..

its not always never about trying to change the trolls mind
FTFY
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:59 PM   #2822
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
...."Well, I guess I owe you dinner!"

Her response was "You're gonna owe me a hell of a lot more than that before we're done tonight!"....
Now try communicating THAT in non-verbal body language!!

.... oh , wait... you did !!!
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Old 8th March 2018, 05:07 PM   #2823
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
He got explicit consent and his behaviour was appropriate by Grace's own admission. Grace is an asshat and #metoo is a modern witch hunt.
We are judging him for the extent of consent he found acceptable. Not a witch hunt if we don't like the actions we agree happened.
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Old 8th March 2018, 05:12 PM   #2824
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
He got explicit consent and his behaviour was appropriate by Grace's own admission. Grace is an asshat and #metoo is a modern witch hunt.
And again this is trying to disprove that someone's soup is too hot by showing them that yours is too cold.

Both "sides" have been doing this the entire debate. Every time we try and talk about rape, somebody runs in and goes "Lookit this guy who was falsley accused!" and every time we try and talk about false accusations somebody runs in and goes "Lookit at this woman who was raped!"

THOSE TWO THINGS DON'T DISPROVE EACH OTHER.

This isn't a scale where to put a marble on one side you have to take a marble off the other. This is not a zero sum game. False accusations don't make rapes more or less likely (on a societal scale) or vice versa.
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Old 8th March 2018, 05:42 PM   #2825
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And again this is trying to disprove that someone's soup is too hot by showing them that yours is too cold.

Both "sides" have been doing this the entire debate. Every time we try and talk about rape, somebody runs in and goes "Lookit this guy who was falsley accused!" and every time we try and talk about false accusations somebody runs in and goes "Lookit at this woman who was raped!"
You've just summarized 65% of all internet discussions.
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Old 8th March 2018, 06:08 PM   #2826
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Both "sides" have been doing this the entire debate. Every time we try and talk about rape, somebody runs in and goes "Lookit this guy who was falsley accused!" and every time we try and talk about false accusations somebody runs in and goes "Lookit at this woman who was raped!"

THOSE TWO THINGS DON'T DISPROVE EACH OTHER.

This isn't a scale where to put a marble on one side you have to take a marble off the other. This is not a zero sum game. False accusations don't make rapes more or less likely (on a societal scale) or vice versa.
You must be mistaking me for someone else. I have always said that rape is wrong . . . PERIOD. My argument has been that the #metoo movement has gone too far because they have no way to identify false claims and to treat them as false claims. Their mantra is that all accusations are true and so every accused person is worthy of the worst kind of treatment and death.

Witch hunts do that and that is why I view #metoo as nothing more than a modern witch hunt. When you are not allowedto examine claims without being labelled a rape enabler, a misogynist, or a pedophile, the movement has jumped the shark.

False accusations don't make rape less likely outside of the cases of false accusations. What they do though is illustrate why every accusation must be examined on its merit which is something the #metoo movement is totally opposed to. For **** sakes, SJWs will not even admit that the Jian Ghomeshi accusers lied.
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Old 8th March 2018, 06:12 PM   #2827
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
We are judging him for the extent of consent he found acceptable.
If "no" means no, then "yes" means yes. Grace is a douche.
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Old 8th March 2018, 06:19 PM   #2828
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Originally Posted by I Am The Scum View Post
You shouldn't poison the groundwater that we all drink from.
True but should we point out that the ground water has been poisoned?
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Old 8th March 2018, 06:21 PM   #2829
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Originally Posted by Ron_Tomkins View Post
Hahahaha, I love that story. Sounds like you two had a very relaxed chemistry right from the start.
Yup. I loved her deeply. Her not so much. We tried again 15 years later with the same result. We are still friends.
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Old 8th March 2018, 06:29 PM   #2830
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
You must be mistaking me for someone else. I have always said that rape is wrong . . . PERIOD. My argument has been that the #metoo movement has gone too far because they have no way to identify false claims and to treat them as false claims. Their mantra is that all accusations are true and so every accused person is worthy of the worst kind of treatment and death.
Only if "Sexual assault (both in general and in Hollywood) is an issue that deserves more attention" and "Some accusations of assault are false" to be incompatible.

I think you're putting a lot more stock in how... cohesive "Movements" and "Causes" are. It's not like all the women in the world meet on the 2nd Tuesday of each month in order to lay out the official approved "MeToo" agenda.

"Women get to have a movement against sexual assault... but only as long as no women anywhere misuse it" is... well not useful. It doesn't help either side of the issue.

You can call women on false accusations who use MeToo as part of their message and support MeToo conceptually.

But you seem to think every woman who proclaims to be part of the MeToo movement and makes a false accusation disproves or taints the entire movement.
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Old 8th March 2018, 06:33 PM   #2831
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
And again this is trying to disprove that someone's soup is too hot by showing them that yours is too cold.
No, it isn't. You cannot give consent all the way, regret it later when you've thought about it some more, and then cry rape. This is what Grace did, and why she is, as qayak so eloquently put it, an asshat.

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
Both "sides" have been doing this the entire debate. Every time we try and talk about rape, somebody runs in and goes "Lookit this guy who was falsley accused!" and every time we try and talk about false accusations somebody runs in and goes "Lookit at this woman who was raped!"

THOSE TWO THINGS DON'T DISPROVE EACH OTHER.
I agree but not all of us have been arguing that way; our arguments have been more nuanced. The problem is that those who DO argue that way, have no understanding of context

Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
This isn't a scale where to put a marble on one side you have to take a marble off the other. This is not a zero sum game. False accusations don't make rapes more or less likely (on a societal scale) or vice versa.
But that is not the argument. Right from the outset, the argument has been about what false accusations do to the PLATFORM on which rape accusations are made (in this case, the metoo hashtag) not the rapes themselves.

I am a firm and unshakable believer in Blackstone's Formulation ("It is better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer"), so from my perspective, if even one false accusation has been made using the metoo hashtag, then that is one too many, and the whole of the metoo hashtag loses its credibility.

Actually, I am dead against the idea of publicly accusing people of crimes, and that if people do so, and are then unable to prove their allegation, there should be some serious consequences for that person.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:14 PM   #2832
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Originally Posted by JoeMorgue View Post
But you seem to think every woman who proclaims to be part of the MeToo movement and makes a false accusation disproves or taints the entire movement.
My issue, and the issue for every woman I know, is that there is no mechanism to separate true and false claims. My wife's long time friend is such a staunch feminist that I expected we would nearly come to blows over the #metoo movement. We all got together a couple months ago and she shocked the hell out of me by saying that men's lives being ruined by mere accusations was so much B.S. She is a big Woody Allen fan and I asked her about the accusations about him abusing his daughter? She said, "You know they found Mia Farrow to be the abusive parent, right?"

So sometimes people I think are SJWs turn out to be very reasoned.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:19 PM   #2833
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
If "no" means no, then "yes" means yes. Grace is a douche.
And that still doesn't make punishing Ansari for his actions a witch hunt. He is a witch.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:21 PM   #2834
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
You must be mistaking me for someone else. I have always said that rape is wrong . . . PERIOD. My argument has been that the #metoo movement has gone too far because they have no way to identify false claims and to treat them as false claims. Their mantra is that all accusations are true and so every accused person is worthy of the worst kind of treatment and death.

Witch hunts do that and that is why I view #metoo as nothing more than a modern witch hunt. When you are not allowedto examine claims without being labelled a rape enabler, a misogynist, or a pedophile, the movement has jumped the shark.

False accusations don't make rape less likely outside of the cases of false accusations. What they do though is illustrate why every accusation must be examined on its merit which is something the #metoo movement is totally opposed to. For **** sakes, SJWs will not even admit that the Jian Ghomeshi accusers lied.
Ghomeshi predates #metoo.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:48 PM   #2835
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
And that still doesn't make punishing Ansari for his actions a witch hunt. He is a witch.
You are right, it makes punishing him wrong.

You are enacting vigilante justice on people to the greatest extent of your ability, and doing so for reasons I find morally reprehensible from many angles.

There is no way of checking the authority you want to give yourself, and by that fact alone I would oppose it with everything I have.
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Old 8th March 2018, 07:59 PM   #2836
BobTheCoward
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Originally Posted by sadhatter View Post
You are right, it makes punishing him wrong.

You are enacting vigilante justice on people to the greatest extent of your ability, and doing so for reasons I find morally reprehensible from many angles.

There is no way of checking the authority you want to give yourself, and by that fact alone I would oppose it with everything I have.
By vigilante, you mean not consume his product. which isn't even a punishment.

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Old 8th March 2018, 08:05 PM   #2837
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Ghomeshi predates #metoo.
It's called a precursor.
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:13 PM   #2838
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
It's called a precursor.
Well, I can defend the metoo movement. Precursors to metoo is a different subject.
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:17 PM   #2839
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Originally Posted by BobTheCoward View Post
Well, I can defend the metoo movement.
At this point it is indefensible.
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Old 8th March 2018, 08:23 PM   #2840
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Originally Posted by qayak View Post
At this point it is indefensible.
What do you have against people determining they didn't like ansaris behaviour and changing their relationship to his product? This isn't a case of false accusation. You and I are in agreement of what happened that night.
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