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Old 12th March 2018, 06:21 PM   #41
Skeptic Ginger
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
That's fine when discussing science but when we get into morality it's a bit more tricky.
The GOP has zero, I repeat, zero high ground on morality whatsoever. You do know what kind of amoral slime the GOP elected and defends, right?


As for the Democrats demeaning the intelligence of certain GOP voters and legislators, I wish the GOP wasn't bent on the campaign talking points that science and education are 'elitist' and I wish the GOP hadn't sided with the Merchants of Doubt, attacking legit science since before the 60s.

It's not just that they bad mouth global warming, they use it as a propaganda tool.

It would be nice if both parties dropped all the voter manipulation and just campaigned on good science, live and let live morality, and their economic ideologies or whatever legit differences really existed between us.
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Old 12th March 2018, 06:27 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Made a change. Just to add a wee bit of perspective shift.
Originally Posted by rwguinn View Post
In short, they don't and won't, at least from me. Conversely, why should someone who believes GMO is poison, that all "Big" whatever is out to kill everybody ( while owning stock in "big" whatever), and that have eggs up the vagina and other crystals have healing power have any say in anything, either?
Always the false equivalence between the minority of nutty Democrats and the majority of propaganda pushing plus nutty Republicans. No matter how many times you folk are reminded of this difference you persist.
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:42 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by mgidm86 View Post
I could come up with just as many bad ideas from the left regarding economics, the environment, and social issues. Holy crap are you kidding?

I live in California after all where lakes were drained to save 12 individual Delta Smelt (fish) and all kinds of great decisions are made. In fact this state is so screwed up it's hard for me to believe that actual adults are in charge.

I can come up with a nice endless list if you'd like. I'd say both sides are equally rotten though and leave it at that. There's nothing "good" out there.
Of course, both sides are bad. What's your point? It's almost like there should be a label for that type of argument...

But who said both were perfect, or claims that Democrats always make the best decisions? I'm saying that both sides are *not* equally rotten, that conservative ideas and policies are much worse.

What's as bad on the left as promoting creationism? Endorsing discrimination? Deregulation in environmental policies, based on denying evidence? Trickle down economics?

You also didn't address my other point. It's easy to talk about bad things, and harder to point out good. What are Republicans correct about?
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Old 13th March 2018, 07:55 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Always the false equivalence between the minority of nutty Democrats and the majority of propaganda pushing plus nutty Republicans. No matter how many times you folk are reminded of this difference you persist.
Who are "You folks"?
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Old 13th March 2018, 09:04 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
You beat me to it!
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:28 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
Of course, both sides are bad. What's your point? It's almost like there should be a label for that type of argument...

But who said both were perfect, or claims that Democrats always make the best decisions? I'm saying that both sides are *not* equally rotten, that conservative ideas and policies are much worse.
That entirely depends on what direction you think the the country should take. The conservative idea of small, limited government, for example (while the GOP isn't really doing that), isn't a "bad" idea per se. It is only characterized as bad by people who want the government to be large and doing more. Along those lines, Universal Health Care in the form of a single payer system is a progressive idea that I consider a "bad" idea. Ditto free college education or expanded welfare. However, I also think that progressives are people just like me who really want the best for the country; we just disagree about how to get there.

Quote:
What's as bad on the left as promoting creationism?
Killing nuclear power.
Quote:
Endorsing discrimination?
Who endorses discrimination?
Quote:
Deregulation in environmental policies, based on denying evidence?
Pushing for more government regluation about food labeling based on nonsensical theories about GMOs and such
Quote:
Trickle down economics?
Government paid healthcare and college education.

Quote:
You also didn't address my other point. It's easy to talk about bad things, and harder to point out good. What are Republicans correct about?
That entirely depends on your point of view.
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Old 14th March 2018, 03:13 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
That entirely depends on what direction you think the the country should take. The conservative idea of small, limited government, for example (while the GOP isn't really doing that), isn't a "bad" idea per se. It is only characterized as bad by people who want the government to be large and doing more. Along those lines, Universal Health Care in the form of a single payer system is a progressive idea that I consider a "bad" idea. Ditto free college education or expanded welfare. However, I also think that progressives are people just like me who really want the best for the country; we just disagree about how to get there.
Indeed, it depends what you consider "best" be, and your desired outcomes, and how much you value ideology over evidence.

Why is small, limited government, without UHC or welfare good for a country? Any real world examples that these policies make things better?


Quote:
Killing nuclear power.
Not a great idea, but on par with creationism? Really?

Quote:
Who endorses discrimination?
Republicans.

Quote:
Pushing for more government regluation about food labeling based on nonsensical theories about GMOs and such
Example of who's doing that? Any elected officials, or just citizens? Is it in any platforms?

How that as bad as trying to minimize our impact, wanting to have breathable air and rivers that don't catch fire?

Quote:
Government paid healthcare and college education.
Why are those bad things? The overall cost is less, while covering more people than doing it privately.

Trickle down doesn't work in the real world when it's been tried.

Quote:
That entirely depends on your point of view.

I'll take the non-answer at face value. Nothing.
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Old 14th March 2018, 03:47 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
Not a great idea, but on par with creationism? Really?
What effect on global climate change did creationism have?
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Old 14th March 2018, 05:16 PM   #49
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Back to the OT, it turns out that all 11 precinct chairs endorsed by the (former) county chair failed at election.
That's as close to Censure as it gets in the Bible Belt...
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Old 14th March 2018, 06:03 PM   #50
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Change coming?

Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
Indeed, it depends what you consider "best" be, and your desired outcomes, and how much you value ideology over evidence.



Why is small, limited government, without UHC or welfare good for a country? Any real world examples that these policies make things better?
The USA was built without UHC or European-style welfare. Pretty successful nation as far as I can tell.
Quote:
Not a great idea, but on par with creationism? Really?
Both are stances that eschew science for ideology.
Quote:
Republicans.
Thatís a mighty big group. Is your assertion that all Republicans endorse discrimination?
Quote:
Example of who's doing that? Any elected officials, or just citizens? Is it in any platforms?
Obama signed a bill mandating labeling of GMO containing foods.
Quote:
How that as bad as trying to minimize our impact, wanting to have breathable air and rivers that don't catch fire?
And your assertion is that Republicans want to maximize our impact, have unbreathable air and have our rivers catch on fire? That is poisoning the well.
Quote:
Why are those bad things? The overall cost is less, while covering more people than doing it privately.
Many other methods can be used to accomplish the same goal. The push to have the government pay for everything fails to account for the unintended consequences. For example, not everybody needs to go to college for their careers. Maybe we should be encouraging apprenticeships and other forms of vocational training as well as working to bring down the ridiculous rises in tuition.
Quote:
Trickle down doesn't work in the real world when it's been tried.
I agree, but that doesnít mean that entitlement programs and welfare are the only alternatives.
Quote:
I'll take the non-answer at face value. Nothing.
Thatís not a non-answer; itís just the truth. I think the idea of high taxes on the rich is wrong and the current Congress is right (right direction at least) with their latest tax package. Very likely, you do not. POV is key in determining right and wrong in politics.
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Old 14th March 2018, 06:08 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
Who are "You folks"?
Whatever proportion of the right wing that persist in the assertion majority and leadership GOP views are equivalently whacky to the small fringe of whacky, not in leadership positions left wingers.
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Old 14th March 2018, 07:00 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Skeptic Ginger View Post
Whatever proportion of the right wing that persist in the assertion majority and leadership GOP views are equivalently whacky to the small fringe of whacky, not in leadership positions left wingers.
What does that have to do with me, since one of those quotes was mine?
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Old 14th March 2018, 11:21 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The USA was built without ...
The USA was built at the dawn of the industrial revolution as a primarily agrarian society. It was built before medical care itself was really a thing.

And there was something of a welfare state back then - poor houses. "Outdoor relief". Programs like that.
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Old 15th March 2018, 12:34 AM   #54
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Creationists tend to belive in a God. They believe so strongly that they believe it will intervene to save humanity from its own stupidity. Some of the Christian creationists in positions of power in the USA have expressed the opinion that because of the Flood and the rainbow and their God's promise to Noah we have nothing to fear from global warming. So that kind of harm to the environment from creationism exists.
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Old 15th March 2018, 12:53 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by kellyb View Post
The USA was built at the dawn of the industrial revolution as a primarily agrarian society. It was built before medical care itself was really a thing.

And there was something of a welfare state back then - poor houses. "Outdoor relief". Programs like that.
It was also built with slavery
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Old 15th March 2018, 01:18 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The USA was built without UHC or European-style welfare. Pretty successful nation as far as I can tell.......
Financially successful, and militarily too. But socially? The richest country in the world has millions who live like many rural Africans: in real poverty and fearing illness. The difference is that rural Africa has little choice about this state of affairs.
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Old 15th March 2018, 01:22 AM   #57
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In times of global mega-corporation, Small Government is a very bad idea.
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Old 15th March 2018, 02:09 AM   #58
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Originally Posted by rustypouch View Post
Trickle down economics?
Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
Government paid healthcare and college education.

You think the two are equivalent? When, in the actual, real world, one's been shown to work and one's been shown not to work?
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Old 15th March 2018, 02:19 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
In times of global mega-corporation, Small Government is a very bad idea.
I'm still not convinced the global mega-corporation is a good idea.
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Old 15th March 2018, 04:56 AM   #60
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Has ending nuclear power or fighting GMOs been part of any state or national Democratic Party platform?

Now, how about creationism or global warming denial as GOP state or national platforms?
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Old 15th March 2018, 05:00 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The USA was built without UHC or European-style welfare. Pretty successful nation as far as I can tell.
Exactly it is good that some loser dies because his gofundme comes up $50 short that is the american way people. You would proudly die if your gofundme came up short I am sure.
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Old 15th March 2018, 06:33 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by kookbreaker View Post
Has ending nuclear power or fighting GMOs been part of any state or national Democratic Party platform?

Now, how about creationism or global warming denial as GOP state or national platforms?
As a matter of fact, the Democratic Party did. How many tons of greenhouse gases could have been eliminated over 38 years, I wonder? Presupposes that if they didn't oppose nuclear, it would continue to grow, but there it is...
Democrats Adopt Plank Opposing Nuclear Power
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Old 15th March 2018, 06:33 AM   #63
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Quote:
And your assertion is that Republicans want to maximize our impact, have unbreathable air and have our rivers catch on fire?
The point is not that they want them but that they don't care, as long as they don't "harm the business environment".
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Old 15th March 2018, 10:00 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
As a matter of fact, the Democratic Party did. How many tons of greenhouse gases could have been eliminated over 38 years, I wonder? Presupposes that if they didn't oppose nuclear, it would continue to grow, but there it is...
Democrats Adopt Plank Opposing Nuclear Power
That plank was a reaction to the Three Mile Island accident and was pulled from the platform in 1992.
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Old 15th March 2018, 10:17 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
As a matter of fact, the Democratic Party did. How many tons of greenhouse gases could have been eliminated over 38 years, I wonder? Presupposes that if they didn't oppose nuclear, it would continue to grow, but there it is...
Democrats Adopt Plank Opposing Nuclear Power
Given the world has seen 2 major Nuclear Power disasters Chernobyl and Fukishima since then, do you believe that is a bad thing? One of the biggest mistakes regarding nuclear power was the one Nixon made when he stopped research on Thorium.
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Old 15th March 2018, 10:37 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by paulhutch View Post
That plank was a reaction to the Three Mile Island accident and was pulled from the platform in 1992.
So it was a plank. For 12 years worth of policy setting.
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Old 15th March 2018, 10:41 AM   #67
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Originally Posted by acbytesla View Post
Given the world has seen 2 major Nuclear Power disasters Chernobyl and Fukishima since then, do you believe that is a bad thing? One of the biggest mistakes regarding nuclear power was the one Nixon made when he stopped research on Thorium.
Fukushima is not relevant to the policy setting. Chernobyl was not until 1986, and the Democrats removed the plank 6 years later.

How does the impact of these two non-American disasters stack up against the decades of use of coal (and on a smaller scale gas turbine) in America?
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Old 16th March 2018, 03:07 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by LSSBB View Post
So it was a plank. For 12 years worth of policy setting.
Since those were the 12 years of Reagan & Bush 1 there weren't any anti-nuclear power policies passed that I remember. IIRC, it was more along the lines of pro-nuclear policies like this. http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=44353
Although there may have been some policy/law change in reaction to Chernobyl disaster mid way through the 12 years, but I don't remember there being anything.

My memory is that for the past 38 years all the downturn in nuclear power construction has been driven by private industry in the USA, primarily insurance and financial companies considering it not a good bet. We did finally start recovering recently but then the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear disaster happened. Now free-market pricing for nuclear is making it non-competitive with with pretty much every other power generation method again. That accident is what caused the collapse of the Westinghouse nuclear division of Toshiba this past year.
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Old 18th March 2018, 06:27 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by xjx388 View Post
The USA was built without UHC or European-style welfare. Pretty successful nation as far as I can tell.
And? People in the USA pay more and get less. how is that a good thing?

Quote:
Both are stances that eschew science for ideology.
Not an answer, and has been addressed by others in the thread.

Quote:
Thatís a mighty big group. Is your assertion that all Republicans endorse discrimination?
Yes. Racists and bigots tend to do that.

Quote:
Obama signed a bill mandating labeling of GMO containing foods.
He did. What's wrong with consumers being informed of what they're buying, and having the information to make an a choice?

Quote:
And your assertion is that Republicans want to maximize our impact, have unbreathable air and have our rivers catch on fire? That is poisoning the well.
My assertion is that Republicans don't care about these things, and profit is more important. Look at our impact before the EPA. The current administration wants to get rid of the EPA. How will the outcome of that be a good thing?

Quote:
Many other methods can be used to accomplish the same goal. The push to have the government pay for everything fails to account for the unintended consequences. For example, not everybody needs to go to college for their careers. Maybe we should be encouraging apprenticeships and other forms of vocational training as well as working to bring down the ridiculous rises in tuition.
Maybe. But corporations have made it very hard to get in the door without a degree.

Quote:
I agree, but that doesnít mean that entitlement programs and welfare are the only alternatives.
Who said they were?

Quote:
Thatís not a non-answer; itís just the truth. I think the idea of high taxes on the rich is wrong and the current Congress is right (right direction at least) with their latest tax package. Very likely, you do not. POV is key in determining right and wrong in politics.
Why? The current tax package will just increase the deficit. Don't you care about that?
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