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Old 12th March 2018, 07:16 AM   #41
GlennB
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Probably a reference to Hamas. Pretty nasty bunch, basically on the same moral level as the Nazis. Would you be so blasé about a Tory leader calling neo-nazis friends, or does this indifference only apply to one side of politics?
Yes, a very nasty bunch. But associating with 'nasty' people is routine in politics and doesn't mean a person sympathises with the beliefs of such a group just because they associate with them. Saudi Arabia are a nasty bunch, yet I wouldn't have accused May of antisemitism-by-association - or sympathy with the repression of women, support for floggings or amputations etc - during the recent toadying to Saudi.

"Saudi Arabia played an active role in attempting to bring the Palestinians towards a self-governing condition which would permit negotiations with Israel. It has done so primarily by trying to mend the schism between Fatah and Hamas, most notably when King Abdullah invited the two factions to negotiations in Mecca resulting in the Mecca Agreement of 7 February 2007"
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:07 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
They don't have the power that the Nazis did, but morally I doubt there is much difference.
So you are equating them to Nazis based on your counterfactual speculation around what they would do if they had enough power? That's nothing but a nice way to say "I think they should be bombed and shot as much as possible without any worrying or hand-wringing about it".
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:09 AM   #43
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Ask yourself whether you could imagine Corbyn calling George W his friend, or the Tory party his friends, or Tony Blair a friend.

The man is a fraud, a total fraud in relation to Human rights. I long for the day when the left wakes up from this insanity.
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:13 AM   #44
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However, if we leave aside the friends remark, how about this?

“…the idea that an organisation that is dedicated towards the good of the Palestinian people and bringing about peace and social justice and political justice should be labelled as a terrorist organisation by the British government is a big, big historical mistake…”

Peace, social justice.... Hamas.

Hamas are an enemy to the Palestinian cause.
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:42 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by TubbaBlubba View Post
So you are equating them to Nazis based on your counterfactual speculation around what they would do if they had enough power? That's nothing but a nice way to say "I think they should be bombed and shot as much as possible without any worrying or hand-wringing about it".
Not at all (you may be projecting, because I have not said nor implied that).

I view their (moral) similarities to Nazis as including (but not limited to):
- Won a vote, then cancelled further elections
- desire territorial expansion with accompanying ethnic cleansing
- Would like to kill all jews (yes, all jews worldwide)
- kill gays
- kill political dissenters


(And, as Undiscovered Walrus says, Corbyn calls Hamas friends. He had a mealy mouthed justification about needing to talk to resolve conflicts... but he would never invite Likud and call them friends ... even though they are no where near as bad as Hamas).
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Old 12th March 2018, 11:59 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
As a number of people have already pointed out, there has been a fair amount of that on JREF/ISF over the years. Posting through a medium where 'jew hatred' happens doesn't make one a jew hater, does it?

We know sod all about this FB group really. If it was relentlessly devoted to antisemitism then Corbyn did something wrong. If antisemitism occasionally happened there then, well, it's very possible he was just a passer-by.
My bad. I thought the question was still about the Facebook group.
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Old 12th March 2018, 01:15 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Topic is Jeremy Corbyn hobnobbing with anti semites. Darat, info analyst and 3point14 seem to want to discuss anything but that.
You expect anything different?
Dear Leader must be defended at all costs.
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Old 12th March 2018, 01:17 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
However, if we leave aside the friends remark, how about this?

“…the idea that an organisation that is dedicated towards the good of the Palestinian people and bringing about peace and social justice and political justice should be labelled as a terrorist organisation by the British government is a big, big historical mistake…”

Peace, social justice.... Hamas.

Hamas are an enemy to the Palestinian cause.

You did not get the memo about "No Enemies To The Left" I see...
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Old 12th March 2018, 01:19 PM   #49
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The irony is some of the Corbyn defenders here sound little different then the Trump defenders with their tactic of deflect,deflect,deflect,....
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Old 12th March 2018, 02:46 PM   #50
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There are plenty of noble socialists in the UK. What's baffled me is why so many on the left have hung their mast to one who has been in bed with some of the most regressive regimes and parties on the planet. The man consistently lies about it as well.

How great it would be to have a leader from the left who could, without hypocrisy, condemn the Tories over support for the Saudis, for instance.
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Old 12th March 2018, 03:23 PM   #51
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For the same reason, UW, that some conservatives,who know exactly what Trump is and probably deep down don't like him very much support him:blind Partisan loyalty.
That is why I will never be a good member of any political party: I refuse to support a total Alpha Hotel just because he is a member of a political party.
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Old 12th March 2018, 04:31 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The irony is some of the Corbyn defenders here sound little different then the Trump defenders with their tactic of deflect,deflect,deflect,....
And Hillary defenders...
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Old 12th March 2018, 08:13 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
The irony is some of the Corbyn defenders here sound little different then the Trump defenders with their tactic of deflect,deflect,deflect,....
Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
And Hillary defenders...
Let's judge the ISF by MaGZ and SnakeTongue's insanity then...

I'd come to the defense of every one of you more level-headed posters.
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Old 13th March 2018, 04:25 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
You expect anything different?
Dear Leader must be defended at all costs.
I'm fairly sure none of the posters Giz references are Corbyn supporters.
Indeed, on the nerve agent thread Info Analyst has referred to Corbyn's response at PMQs yesterday as follows:
Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
And the most diplomatic language to describe Corbyn's response would be "utter twat...."
Hardly someone who would view JC as "Dear Leader".
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Old 13th March 2018, 04:36 AM   #55
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Good to see so many people here running interference for Corbyn.
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Old 13th March 2018, 07:34 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
However, if we leave aside the friends remark, how about this?

“…the idea that an organisation that is dedicated towards the good of the Palestinian people and bringing about peace and social justice and political justice should be labelled as a terrorist organisation by the British government is a big, big historical mistake…”

Peace, social justice.... Hamas.

Hamas are an enemy to the Palestinian cause.
That notorious crypto-Marxist, Jimmy Carter, in 2015 -

'Former US president Jimmy Carter called Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal a strong proponent of the peace process Saturday, and said he wasn’t meeting with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu because it would be “a waste of time" ...

"I don’t believe that he's a terrorist. He’s strongly in favor of the peace process,” Carter said of Hamas politburo chief Khaled Mashaal. He said Mashaal expressed interest in the Saudis hosting a “peace meeting” and that the Doha-based Hamas leader would recognize Israel’s right to exist based on the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative.'
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:49 AM   #57
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
That notorious crypto-Marxist, Jimmy Carter, in 2015 -

'Former US president Jimmy Carter called Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal a strong proponent of the peace process Saturday, and said he wasn’t meeting with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu because it would be “a waste of time" ...

"I don’t believe that he's a terrorist. He’s strongly in favor of the peace process,” Carter said of Hamas politburo chief Khaled Mashaal. He said Mashaal expressed interest in the Saudis hosting a “peace meeting” and that the Doha-based Hamas leader would recognize Israel’s right to exist based on the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative.'
Yeah, but carter is a nut.
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:13 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by GlennB View Post
That notorious crypto-Marxist, Jimmy Carter, in 2015 -

'Former US president Jimmy Carter called Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal a strong proponent of the peace process Saturday, and said he wasn’t meeting with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu because it would be “a waste of time" ...

"I don’t believe that he's a terrorist. He’s strongly in favor of the peace process,” Carter said of Hamas politburo chief Khaled Mashaal. He said Mashaal expressed interest in the Saudis hosting a “peace meeting” and that the Doha-based Hamas leader would recognize Israel’s right to exist based on the 2002 Arab Peace Initiative.'

Do you think it is appropriate to label Hamas as an:

organisation that is dedicated towards the good of the Palestinian people and bringing about peace and social justice and political justice
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Old 13th March 2018, 01:39 PM   #59
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Originally Posted by Undesired Walrus View Post
Do you think it is appropriate to label Hamas as an:

organisation that is dedicated towards the good of the Palestinian people and bringing about peace and social justice and political justice
mmmmm .. no, not really. I believe that most of the major players in that zone - on both sides - are interested in actually maintaining a state of conflict in order to further their personal power base.

My turn:

Would it be fair to characterise Carter as antisemitic because of his friendly contacts with Hamas representatives ?
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:27 PM   #60
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Carter is what is always has been : an idealist who it is easy for people to roll.
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Old 13th March 2018, 02:55 PM   #61
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Carter isn't just having friendly contact with Hamas. He's working as an advocate for their cause.
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Old 28th March 2018, 09:21 AM   #62
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Just a quick update on Jeremy Corbyn's facebook woes, this is the latest storm in the UK:

"In a Facebook post in 2012, Corbyn offered his backing to Los Angeles-based street artist Mear One, whose mural, featuring several known antisemitic tropes, was due to be removed after complaints"

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-corbyn-labour


Incidentally, Corbyn's defense of his behavior on the grounds of sticking up for free speech (
'Corbyn said he had made, “a general comment about the removal of public art on grounds of freedom of speech”.') is highly questionable, as he was against publishing the Danish cartoons and the like... so he has a record of being happy to censor work that might be offensive. He just doesn't care about anti-Semitism.
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Old 28th March 2018, 11:07 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Carter isn't just having friendly contact with Hamas. He's working as an advocate for their cause.
I question anybody who's won a Peace Prize at this point
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Old 28th March 2018, 12:02 PM   #64
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Just a quick update on Jeremy Corbyn's facebook woes, this is the latest storm in the UK:

"In a Facebook post in 2012, Corbyn offered his backing to Los Angeles-based street artist Mear One, whose mural, featuring several known antisemitic tropes, was due to be removed after complaints"

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-corbyn-labour
According to the Wikipedia article, that'll be,

"a group of elderly bankers or businessmen sitting around a board game that resembled Monopoly and was supported by crouching naked human figures. Above the group was an Eye of Providence pyramid symbol, and to the side stood a protesting figure bearing a placard with the slogan "The New World Order is the enemy of humanity". Ockerman has stated that the figures represented an "elite banker cartel" consisting of the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, and the Morgans, and that the pyramid symbolised Freemasonry."

If an "elite banker cartel" is automatically labelled "anti-Semitic," that probably says more for the person doing the labelling than the depiction.
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Old 28th March 2018, 12:44 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Information Analyst View Post
According to the Wikipedia article, that'll be,

"a group of elderly bankers or businessmen sitting around a board game that resembled Monopoly and was supported by crouching naked human figures. Above the group was an Eye of Providence pyramid symbol, and to the side stood a protesting figure bearing a placard with the slogan "The New World Order is the enemy of humanity". Ockerman has stated that the figures represented an "elite banker cartel" consisting of the Rothschilds, the Rockefellers, and the Morgans, and that the pyramid symbolised Freemasonry."

If an "elite banker cartel" is automatically labelled "anti-Semitic," that probably says more for the person doing the labelling than the depiction.
The mural's on the link I attached... but here's a pic:

Let's see what the forum thinks.


As a note on your quote from Mear_One, here's another quote from him (from the Guardian article I linked to):
"Mear One, the street artist who painted the mural: “Some of the older white Jewish folk in the local community had an issue with me portraying their beloved #Rothschild or #Warburg etc as the demons they are,” he has written."
Attached Images
File Type: jpg mural.jpg (46.5 KB, 24 views)
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Old 28th March 2018, 03:52 PM   #66
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An alternate take on 'Muralgate'

http://guerillawire.org/politics/oh-...at-mural-then/
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Old 28th March 2018, 05:28 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by P.J. Denyer View Post
To quote the guardian: “ If you can’t see antisemitism, it’s time to open your eyes”

Jeez, even Jeremy Corbyn has acknowledged it was anti Semitic. And the artist has said “Some of the older white Jewish folk in the local community had an issue with me portraying their beloved #Rothschild or #Warburg etc as the demons they are”

Denialism. Never a pleasant sight.
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Old 28th March 2018, 05:36 PM   #68
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Good thing Corbyn acknowledged it. Oh, I forgot "keeping company" like that, even if just peripherally, is a sin by itself.
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Old 29th March 2018, 02:17 AM   #69
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Yeah.
That mural is not a particularly subtle depiction, I'm afraid.
It would have been at home in the 30s.
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Old 29th March 2018, 02:33 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The mural's on the link I attached... but here's a pic:

Let's see what the forum thinks.


As a note on your quote from Mear_One, here's another quote from him (from the Guardian article I linked to):
"Mear One, the street artist who painted the mural: “Some of the older white Jewish folk in the local community had an issue with me portraying their beloved #Rothschild or #Warburg etc as the demons they are,” he has written."
As noted in PJD's link, the Rockefellers and the Morgans were not Jewish, but they're protrayed in the same unflattering light. Are you suggesting that - in this anti-capitalist context - the Rothschilds and the Warburgs are off-limits simply by virtue of being Jewish, but the Rockefellers and the Morgans are legitimate targets?

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Old 29th March 2018, 06:35 AM   #71
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The NYT take on it:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/03/29/o...ection=Opinion

Snippets:

“If you take Jeremy Corbyn at his word, then the leader of Britain’s Labour Party is no anti-Semite. It’s just that, like the Wild West preacher who keeps accidentally wandering into Fannie Porter’s house of ill repute, Corbyn has an odd knack for stumbling into the arms of the Hebraically disinclined.”

... snipped a huge list of examples of Corbyn fraternizing with anti semites....

“Corbyn is now urgently seeking meetings with Jewish leaders while saying he is “sincerely sorry for the pain which has been caused.” Note the passive voice. Meanwhile, anti-Semitic incidents in Britain hit a record high last year. Corbyn’s rise may not be the cause of it, but it’s unmistakably a symptom. Countries that care about the safety of Jews don’t elevate leaders who have spent their careers being dismissive of it.

The election of Donald Trump has caused waves of justified fear about the unique threat he poses to civil liberties in the free world. Yet Jeremy Corbyn may be the next prime minister of Britain, much to the delight of progressives on both sides of the Atlantic. What happens now will be a test for the global left: If it is willing to let Corbyn off the hook, it can have no honest case against Trump. No claim to moral respect, either.”
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Old 29th March 2018, 06:43 AM   #72
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Here's another take on that mural:

https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.c...at-mural-then/

Seems it's not quite as clear cut as the right wing press would like you to think it is.
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Old 29th March 2018, 07:01 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Here's another take on that mural:

https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.c...at-mural-then/

Seems it's not quite as clear cut as the right wing press would like you to think it is.
The “right wing press”? I’ve been quoting the Guardian and the New York Times!

You may be lost in a far left apologetics echo chamber
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Old 29th March 2018, 08:39 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Topic is Jeremy Corbyn hobnobbing with anti semites. Darat, info analyst and 3point14 seem to want to discuss anything but that.
I'd thank you to demonstrate that your speculation is correct with a quote from me. Either that, or withdraw it.
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Old 29th March 2018, 08:58 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
I'd thank you to demonstrate that your speculation is correct with a quote from me. Either that, or withdraw it.
Easily done! Here is the OP:
__________________________________________________ ____________________
I suppose it's consistent with the other company he likes to keep:

"An anti-Semitism group said evidence gathered by the blogger David Collier suggested Jeremy Corbyn was said to be among members of Palestine Live until just before he became leader in 2015."

"Exchanges by members of the closed Facebook group were said to have included discussions of conspiracy myths about the Rothschild family and supposed Israeli involvement in the 9/11 terrorist attacks, as well as links to material produced by neo-Nazi groups."

"The Campaign Against Anti-Semitism said there was "no conceivable justification" for Mr Corbyn's alleged involvement in the group and that it would be filing a disciplinary complaint to the party against him."
__________________________________________________ ________

And here are your other posts (with my [Notes]):


"He seems an interesting gentleman"
[Note – this was referring to David Collier, not Jeremy Corbyn]

"Actually no, just googled him, as we all do for sources, and saw a lot about him that seemed controversial. I haven't yet worked out if that's because he's full of **** or because he's been close to things that important people don't want him to be close to because I haven't had time to read any of the things about him.
Everyone seems to think they can read my mind today. It's odd."
[Note – still tryuing to talk about David Collier, instead of Jeremy Corbyn’s associations and behaviour]

"Pretty much the first thing anyone does when presented with new information is ask where it came from, isn't it? Or is that just me?
EDIT: If someone tells you there's a double-decker bus son the moon, do you rush to a telescope or check if it's the Enquirer, the daily sport or the Times that have reported it?"
[Note - Still not addressing Jeremy Corbyn]

"I don't know. I haven't got that far with the reading yet."
[Note - Still desperately not addressing Jeremy Corbyn]


At least you have moved on from David Collier, to me. I suppose that is progress of a sort. Can we hope that you will address Corbyn's behavior at some point?
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Old 29th March 2018, 09:04 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Easily done! Here is the OP:
__________________________________________________ ____________________
I suppose it's consistent with the other company he likes to keep:

"An anti-Semitism group said evidence gathered by the blogger David Collier suggested Jeremy Corbyn was said to be among members of Palestine Live until just before he became leader in 2015."

"Exchanges by members of the closed Facebook group were said to have included discussions of conspiracy myths about the Rothschild family and supposed Israeli involvement in the 9/11 terrorist attacks, as well as links to material produced by neo-Nazi groups."

"The Campaign Against Anti-Semitism said there was "no conceivable justification" for Mr Corbyn's alleged involvement in the group and that it would be filing a disciplinary complaint to the party against him."
__________________________________________________ ________

And here are your other posts (with my [Notes]):


"He seems an interesting gentleman"
[Note – this was referring to David Collier, not Jeremy Corbyn]

"Actually no, just googled him, as we all do for sources, and saw a lot about him that seemed controversial. I haven't yet worked out if that's because he's full of **** or because he's been close to things that important people don't want him to be close to because I haven't had time to read any of the things about him.
Everyone seems to think they can read my mind today. It's odd."
[Note – still tryuing to talk about David Collier, instead of Jeremy Corbyn’s associations and behaviour]

"Pretty much the first thing anyone does when presented with new information is ask where it came from, isn't it? Or is that just me?
EDIT: If someone tells you there's a double-decker bus son the moon, do you rush to a telescope or check if it's the Enquirer, the daily sport or the Times that have reported it?"
[Note - Still not addressing Jeremy Corbyn]

"I don't know. I haven't got that far with the reading yet."
[Note - Still desperately not addressing Jeremy Corbyn]


At least you have moved on from David Collier, to me. I suppose that is progress of a sort. Can we hope that you will address Corbyn's behavior at some point?
That doesn't tally with your accusation at all.

Full disclosure: I came back to the thread to do so to discover I'd been accused of changing the subject when I wasn't even here.

I don't think I'll bother now.
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Old 29th March 2018, 09:11 AM   #77
Giz
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Originally Posted by 3point14 View Post
That doesn't tally with your accusation at all.

Full disclosure: I came back to the thread to do so to discover I'd been accused of changing the subject when I wasn't even here.

I don't think I'll bother now.

Another post without mentioning jeremy!
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Old 29th March 2018, 09:27 AM   #78
3point14
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
Another post without mentioning jeremy!
Yup. My originally intended post was going to mention him a fair deal. You'd have liked it.

Have a a lovely day.
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Old 29th March 2018, 05:25 PM   #79
dudalb
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Originally Posted by Matthew Best View Post
Here's another take on that mural:

https://thegreatcritique.wordpress.c...at-mural-then/

Seems it's not quite as clear cut as the right wing press would like you to think it is.
The mural lost me with the freemason nuttery.
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Old 29th March 2018, 06:15 PM   #80
Venom
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Originally Posted by Giz View Post
The NYT take on it......

“Corbyn is now urgently seeking meetings with Jewish leaders while saying he is “sincerely sorry for the pain which has been caused.” Note the passive voice. Meanwhile, anti-Semitic incidents in Britain hit a record high last year. Corbyn’s rise may not be the cause of it, but it’s unmistakably a symptom. Countries that care about the safety of Jews don’t elevate leaders who have spent their careers being dismissive of it....

.....What happens now will be a test for the global left: If it is willing to let Corbyn off the hook, it can have no honest case against Trump. No claim to moral respect, either.”
When Corbyn refuses to apologize and explicitly makes clear his alleged antisemitism, then we can compare him to Trump.
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