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Tags donald trump , tariffs , Trump controversies

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Old 2nd March 2018, 03:14 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
Ah, I just realized you may have been asking if 100 species' extinction for clearcutting a few thousand hectares of North American old growth was an overestimation.

No, it's actually very conservative. "Ghost with Trembling Wings" is a recent nonfiction book on the topic of the Anthropocene aka Sixth Mass Extinction, which is our current biosphere era.

The main point, though, is that a tree farm is not a forest. It has <1% of the biodiversity.
Without denying anything you're saying here, I thought your "hundreds of species" was hyperbole when Canadian forests are to be considered. A different thing would be the Amazonian Basin.

I share your concerns and yet applaud tree farming: a small area produces the same as a great extension of natural forest, which is left alone.

In my country there's a lot of tree farming in areas where there weren't trees for thousands of years, increasing biodiversity. Natural forests and real biodiversity are at risk because of agriculture, not tree farming.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 03:23 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Trebuchet View Post
You advocated natural reforestation, which would take 200-2000 years and ain't gonna happen.
Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I did, but it didn't make sense. You're recommending reforesting,
You're mistreating MikeG as if he were an American (Usaian or Canadian) talking local.

Of course what he says makes total sense as the UK can show it daily in action, and in the other side of the pond there's a lot of madness and ignorance going on. Is that news at all?

You would do well in learning how the UK is systematically and structurally dealing with the remains of her natural forests and other natural landscapes.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 03:23 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Without denying anything you're saying here, I thought your "hundreds of species" was hyperbole when Canadian forests are to be considered. A different thing would be the Amazonian Basin.
I think you even underestimate the Amazonian Basin. The main factor is species geographic footprint. Crawling insects have a very small footprint, so a hectare of forest, with its vertical strata from root to canopy, can have dozens of unique species. That's why I mentioned Ghost with Trembling Wings - the author is an ecological impact specialist, and typically finds 75-125 geographically restricted species per US forest analysis; the analysis is typically restricted to two individual trees 1km apart. That is, in a hectare, there's maybe around 100 species that just live there and nowhere else in the world.

The regions I was specifically considering were the old growth US forests that are being removed from protection as part of the recent White House review of national parks. They're preserved today due to a mix of aesthetic and biodiversity protection rationales. Some of these are the last footprints for hundreds of thousands of species.



Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
I share your concerns and yet applaud tree farming: a small area produces the same as a great extension of natural forest, which is left alone.

In my country there's a lot of tree farming in areas where there weren't trees for thousands of years, increasing biodiversity. Natural forests and real biodiversity are at risk because of agriculture, not tree farming.
Globally maybe, but these *specific* USA acreages are old growth, and the primary lobbyists pushing for their removal from protection are logging firms, in conjunction with pushing for tariffs against imported softwood lumber, the goal being to use up domestic inventory.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 03:25 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
You're mistreating MikeG as if he were an American (Usaian or Canadian) talking local.

Of course what he says makes total sense as the UK can show it daily in action, and in the other side of the pond there's a lot of madness and ignorance going on. Is that news at all?

You would do well in learning how the UK is systematically and structurally dealing with the remains of her natural forests and other natural landscapes.
The UK was not the forests I was discussing, so perhaps it was just a misunderstanding - he was commenting off topic, and I didn't notice. If Americans product switch to softwood to replace expensive metal construction materials, they are not going to dip into the UK inventory - they are planning to take advantage of new domestic acreages.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 03:31 PM   #45
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I think the misunderstanding was MikeG thinking that Americans could ramp up wood farming or some sort of proper harvesting techniques when taking wood from public lands when the reality is that the Trump administration is simply looking to clearcut lots of old growth forests. If we protected our forests then tree farming or proper harvesting techniques would make some sense in this discussion, but the reality is that we don't protect our forests and they are vast.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 03:53 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
I think you even underestimate the Amazonian Basin. The main factor is species geographic footprint. Crawling insects have a very small footprint, so a hectare of forest, with its vertical strata from root to canopy, can have dozens of unique species ...
But you were talking of species going extinct, weren't you? That was the hype. Nobody denies biodiversty drops 99% when you plant an artificial forest with trees aligned like soldiers or more like gravestones in a cemetery. 99%, locally. But how much wood do you think the world needs? Unless we're talking of replacing oil and natural gas...
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Old 2nd March 2018, 04:13 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Dr. Keith View Post
I think the misunderstanding was MikeG thinking that Americans could ramp up wood farming or some sort of proper harvesting techniques when taking wood from public lands when the reality is that the Trump administration is simply looking to clearcut lots of old growth forests. If we protected our forests then tree farming or proper harvesting techniques would make some sense in this discussion, but the reality is that we don't protect our forests and they are vast.
My concern was with these old growth forests in particular. When we clearcut old growth, we lose a few unique species per hectare. Recovering forests obtain different species from adjacent forests - they do not miraculously re-spawn the extinct local species. Over time, this generates a lower biodiversity, which is considered a negative ecological impact and has a similar risk profile to commercial monoculture.

We're seeing it in BC, where clearcutting has not been replaced by deliberately monocultured tree farms, but the naturally recovering forests are all the same species, pioneered from neighbouring old growth patch by patch over the last century. Tens of thousands of hyperlocal / hectare-footprint species are simply gone forever.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 04:15 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
But you were talking of species going extinct, weren't you? That was the hype. Nobody denies biodiversty drops 99% when you plant an artificial forest with trees aligned like soldiers or more like gravestones in a cemetery. 99%, locally. But how much wood do you think the world needs? Unless we're talking of replacing oil and natural gas...
It's not about that, it's just the one-time destruction of old growth in and of itself is an extinction activity, due to hyperlocal species with very small geographic footprints. Once they're gone, they're gone, and it doesn't matter whether you replace the hectares with monoculture or reforestation, they are gone forever.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 05:19 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by blutoski View Post
..., due to hyperlocal species with very small geographic footprints...
I sincerely doubt that. You're just extending features typical of the tropical rainforest to BC. Not that there are no biological niches and that species have developed special adaptations. That's why they are polyploids. The same genes will eventually reappear.

You're raffling your credibility by abusing of the words extinct and extinction just in order to cause an emotional reaction.
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Old 2nd March 2018, 05:35 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
I sincerely doubt that. You're just extending features typical of the tropical rainforest to BC.
I think you're skimming my posts. I'm explicitly *not* talking about BC. I'm talking about US old growth, which have examples in several states, which is in play as part of the imminent trade war.



Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Not that there are no biological niches and that species have developed special adaptations. That's why they are polyploids. The same genes will eventually reappear.
I'm not sure where you get that theory, and I'm not sure why you think polyploids are some sort of solution.



Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
You're raffling your credibility by abusing of the words extinct and extinction just in order to cause an emotional reaction.
Well, not sure how you're reading my mind to establish motive, but let me share my actual motive: I'm not trying to 'cause an emotional reaction' - I'm just trying to covey the facts as I see them.

I appreciate you think the numbers are extreme, but I disagree. I'm not just talking about large vertebrates. I think it's just a misunderstanding about context at this point.
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Old 3rd March 2018, 03:57 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by blutoski
Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
You're raffling your credibility by abusing of the words extinct and extinction just in order to cause an emotional reaction.
Well, not sure how you're reading my mind to establish motive, but let me share my actual motive: I'm not trying to 'cause an emotional reaction' - I'm just trying to covey the facts as I see them.

I appreciate you think the numbers are extreme, but I disagree. I'm not just talking about large vertebrates. I think it's just a misunderstanding about context at this point.
And the context includes this sub-topic hijacking a thread about Trump's tariffs through what looks to be little more than argumenta ad consequentiam.

Look, I don't doubt Trump's cronies would like to raze up millions of acres of natural reserves to do good business and only keep the youngest trees if they are paid to do so, but that doesn't relate with the consideration of the possible trade war that is incubating now; topic nobody is talking about because the place is occupied with ruminations about how fragile are in theory ecosystems located at latitudes where there's a thermal amplitude of 100° every year.
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Old 3rd March 2018, 08:44 AM   #52
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If the EU levies additional tariffs over USA exports, who will that affect?

For instance, on Harley Davidson bikes:

The company's headquarters are in Milwaukee (65% votes for Clinton, 28% for Trump). The company has 4 factories. The only one situated in a blue county (Jackson -Kansas City-) is being consolidates with one of the three remaining, which are located in York Country, PA (63% Trump, 33% Clinton); Lincoln County, PA (58% Trump, 37% Clinton) and Waukesha County (part of Great Milwaukee), WI (62% Trump, 33% Clinton).

I hope all those sanctions are surgically designed to target Republican areas, as exports from the USA are much more likely to be produced in blue areas than in red areas. In that way, tens of thousands of people to be let go will be mostly Trump voters, what somewhat is poetic justice.
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Old 6th March 2018, 05:37 PM   #53
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Politico say that they have the EU's target list:
https://www.politico.eu/article/eus-...-kitchen-sink/

Direct link to the list:
https://g8fip1kplyr33r3krz5b97d1-wpe...ation-list.pdf
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Old 8th March 2018, 05:59 AM   #54
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This guy talks colloquial, hilarious for the observer with no dog in fight.

"European Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker has said his bloc planned to hit back at the United States by imposing tariffs on targeted US products.

"This is basically a stupid process, the fact that we have to do this. But we have to do it," Juncker said. "We can also do stupid."
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Old 8th March 2018, 06:46 AM   #55
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Any people from affected states here?

What will a tariff on cranberry exports do to Wisconsin, eg?
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Old 8th March 2018, 02:22 PM   #56
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The Wall Street Journal: Trump Signs Metals Tariffs Sparing Some Allies

In the meanwhile I'll be watching in order to join any local rally against Trump and his United States. These tariffs are equivalent to banning another 770 USD millions in exports from Argentina to the States, in this case, raw aluminium and seamless steel pipes (from their largest manufacturer in the world, Argentine company Tenaris).

Up to now, barriers on 40% of our exports to the USA has being confirmed, reinforced or set by Trump's administration, and this moment our imports from the USA more than double our exports to the same market. That's intolerable. I'm not alone in thinking our government is too weak and sanctions over all imports from the USA must be set. It's the least we can do.
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Old 8th March 2018, 03:59 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
The Wall Street Journal: Trump Signs Metals Tariffs Sparing Some Allies

In the meanwhile I'll be watching in order to join any local rally against Trump and his United States. These tariffs are equivalent to banning another 770 USD millions in exports from Argentina to the States, in this case, raw aluminium and seamless steel pipes (from their largest manufacturer in the world, Argentine company Tenaris).

Up to now, barriers on 40% of our exports to the USA has being confirmed, reinforced or set by Trump's administration, and this moment our imports from the USA more than double our exports to the same market. That's intolerable. I'm not alone in thinking our government is too weak and sanctions over all imports from the USA must be set. It's the least we can do.
The U.S. is having the same problem with other countries, on a much larger scale.
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Old 8th March 2018, 04:41 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
The U.S. is having the same problem with other countries, on a much larger scale.
But, we've never raised tariffs on countries to control our deficits.

If the United States is a vacuum cleaner of global capitals and a strong exporter of services thus making for a deficit in the tradable goods sector, that's their problem.

I have more figures: Argentina exports 6 billions in goods and services to the United States and imports 17 billions a year. Argentina has to stop most commercial exchanges at once to make this abuse to cease, starting with 2 billions in imports of motor oil, pork and aircraft, just to make for the 2 billions of our exports Trump has -in practical terms- prohibited just during the last 6 months.
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Old 9th March 2018, 03:08 AM   #59
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The critical question: what is the US going to do with the income from the tariffs? Help the steel and aluminum industry upgrade to the newest technology to become more competitive?
Because otherwise the tariffs will have to be steadily increased to prop up a failing industry.
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Old 9th March 2018, 03:19 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The critical question: what is the US going to do with the income from the tariffs? Help the steel and aluminum industry upgrade to the newest technology to become more competitive?
Because otherwise the tariffs will have to be steadily increased to prop up a failing industry.
IMO it's nothing to do with those industries (otherwise I'm sure there are more effective ways of funding improvements) and everything to do with political posturing.
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Old 9th March 2018, 03:59 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The critical question: what is the US going to do with the income from the tariffs? Help the steel and aluminum industry upgrade to the newest technology to become more competitive?
Because otherwise the tariffs will have to be steadily increased to prop up a failing industry.
Don't know, but certainly, like the coal industry, this incentive will foster automated robotised companies, so the unemployed would be used just to scratch the rust and apply a coat of paint, and then fired again.

Trumpland works this way.
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Old 9th March 2018, 09:55 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO it's nothing to do with those industries (otherwise I'm sure there are more effective ways of funding improvements) and everything to do with political posturing.
I don't think so. Trump doesn't have a lot of "core beliefs", but on this one, he's been pretty consistent over the years. I think he really feels we shouldn't have outsourced these critical industries.
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Old 9th March 2018, 09:56 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Don't know, but certainly, like the coal industry, this incentive will foster automated robotised companies, so the unemployed would be used just to scratch the rust and apply a coat of paint, and then fired again.

Trumpland works this way.
That's undoubtedly true. Most of our lost manufacturing jobs over the years aren't going to ever come back.

Does Argentina have anything like a guaranteed basic income?
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Old 9th March 2018, 11:13 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post

Does Argentina have anything like a guaranteed basic income?
There's a minimum wage (very minimum, as it acquires as many goods as 800$ do in the States), people recently fired are paid their full salary for 6 to 18 months -according to the time they worked with the last employer- and there are social "plans" that give about half the minimum wage to those who can't get a job (there are hundreds of thousands who work informally and still cash these cheques). Additionally, there are some 110-120$ in purchasing power given for each child up to 18 y.o., up to 5 children, and that amount triplicates if the kid is handicapped. If you are unable to work, you can get a free pension between 500 and 800$ (always in equivalent purchasing power). Poor people is also subsidized in natural gas, electricity and water distribution, and in public transportation.

Healthcare is available for free country wide.

So, we're a poor welfare state (our GDP purchase parity power, per capita, is 38% of the one in the States). However, 27% of the total population is considered to be poor -a 50% of the kids- (and from them, some 6% of the total population is indigent)
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:08 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by aleCcowaN View Post
Don't know, but certainly, like the coal industry, this incentive will foster automated robotised companies, so the unemployed would be used just to scratch the rust and apply a coat of paint, and then fired again.

Trumpland works this way.
Here's an interesting article discussing what you describe above. Subject is Oil extraction, rather than coal, but your point generalizes well:

[...when the number of oil rigs began to rebound, the number of workers employed didn’t.]
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:52 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I don't think so. Trump doesn't have a lot of "core beliefs", but on this one, he's been pretty consistent over the years. I think he really feels we shouldn't have outsourced these critical industries.
Maybe,but higher tariffs is not going to bring them back.
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:55 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
IMO it's nothing to do with those industries (otherwise I'm sure there are more effective ways of funding improvements) and everything to do with political posturing.
I think you know how much I despise Trump, but protectionism has been one of the few things he has been pretty consistent on,going back before he had a political career.
it's magical thinking basically, I if impose high tariffs, the steel industry will magically come back.
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Old 9th March 2018, 05:58 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
That's undoubtedly true. Most of our lost manufacturing jobs over the years aren't going to ever come back.

Does Argentina have anything like a guaranteed basic income?
Even if the closed Steel Mills in the US were to reopen, they would only employ a fraction of the people they once did because it has been so massively automated. You have one person supervising robots doing the work that five or six people did. Jobs are disappearing in the Steel Mills overseas.
Trump is just plain lying when he talks about how many jobs would come back in the industries came back.
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Old 13th March 2018, 09:01 AM   #69
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What the Import tariffs really do.

This kind of import taxation is called, protectionism and it never worked out in history. The tariffs will do more suffer then good.
The manufacturing company's, that use steel or aluminum, in the USA, will be hit hard. There are more jobs on the line at those company's, then there are in the steel and aluminum industry and because these tariffs will drive up the prices, these company's have even more reasons to move out of the USA and go to Europe/Asia. Btw the products made of steel and aluminum will be more expensive in the USA than in the rest of the world. Which means people will start importing more of those kinds of products from the rest of the world.

Sorry for the bad Englisch.

Last edited by stresbal; 13th March 2018 at 09:02 AM.
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Old 14th March 2018, 12:35 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
I think you know how much I despise Trump, but protectionism has been one of the few things he has been pretty consistent on,going back before he had a political career.
it's magical thinking basically, I if impose high tariffs, the steel industry will magically come back.
Oh, he's been consistent about protectionism (unless he's buying steel for one of his own projects ), but IMO it's not about protecting those industries, it's about the way that the policies sound and the political support he believes he will drum up as a result.

If it was about making the US steel industry more competitive then there are a number of other ways to address that which are more effective than tariffs.
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Old 14th March 2018, 12:51 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by Fudbucker View Post
I don't think so. Trump doesn't have a lot of "core beliefs", but on this one, he's been pretty consistent over the years. I think he really feels we shouldn't have outsourced these critical industries.
We know since he outsources his own needs for manufacturing he's always been a hypocrite over this issue, he put his want for increased profits above supporting USA manufacturing. He has had the ability as a private citizen to take action in the past if that was truly his belief, since he didn't I can't see how this can be considered a core belief.
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Old 14th March 2018, 05:48 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by The Great Zaganza View Post
The critical question: what is the US going to do with the income from the tariffs? Help the steel and aluminum industry upgrade to the newest technology to become more competitive?
Because otherwise the tariffs will have to be steadily increased to prop up a failing industry.
More police and prisons to manage the workers disemployed by the effects on secondary industries and tax cuts for corporations/the rick/Republican backers.
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Old 14th March 2018, 05:52 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by catsmate View Post
More police and prisons to manage the workers disemployed by the effects on secondary industries and tax cuts for corporations/the rick/Republican backers.
And that's where the boost to domestic steel will come from. Someone has to make those bars!
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Old 14th March 2018, 12:55 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by Darat View Post
We know since he outsources his own needs for manufacturing he's always been a hypocrite over this issue, he put his want for increased profits above supporting USA manufacturing. He has had the ability as a private citizen to take action in the past if that was truly his belief, since he didn't I can't see how this can be considered a core belief.
Beyond just his own suppliers being mostly outsourced, we also know from pirated copies of class collateral that Trump University's business courses were focused on training students to offshore efficiently.

So no, this is not a core belief of the man himself, but I agree that it has been a perennial political go-to to beguile supporters.
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Old 14th March 2018, 01:14 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
Even if the closed Steel Mills in the US were to reopen, they would only employ a fraction of the people they once did because it has been so massively automated. You have one person supervising robots doing the work that five or six people did. Jobs are disappearing in the Steel Mills overseas.
Trump is just plain lying when he talks about how many jobs would come back in the industries came back.
And they are making a lot of manufacturers material costs jump 25% right away. Such as in the stamping industry that the steel alloys are simply not made in the US but only in Germany.
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Old 14th March 2018, 03:03 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Hellbound View Post
And that's where the boost to domestic steel will come from. Someone has to make those bars!


I'm going to start the Canadian Prison Bar Company and undercut you!

Canadian Prison Bar Company - When Only The Cheapest Bars Matter(tm).

Once I dominate the building bars for prisons market, I'll branch out into building bars in prisons, since I figure your entire population will need a place to get drunk while you're all locked up.

I won't even have to change the slogan!
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Old 22nd March 2018, 10:39 AM   #77
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EU and six other countries exempted from US metals tariffs
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-43505804

Wow. Trump was right! Trade wars are easy to win.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 11:58 AM   #78
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$50billion in tariffs to China.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/22/trum...rty-theft.html
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Old 22nd March 2018, 12:31 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by 332nd View Post
$50billion in tariffs to China.
It's on!

May the best dictator win.
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Old 22nd March 2018, 12:49 PM   #80
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Originally Posted by Roger Ramjets View Post
It's on!

May the best dictator win.
And may the stock market recover sooner than later from its 3% loss today.
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