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Old 13th March 2018, 08:29 AM   #201
Roboramma
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Yes, of course I am. Aren't you?
Am I in support of people trying to right past wrongs? When they are trying to do so in effective ways, sure. In this case I don't think that's the case.




Quote:
Concerned with ...? I'd rather say: sympathize with ...
Okay, that's fine. You sympathize with righting the particular wrong of european colonists taking the land of people living in what is now south africa.

But, as I said, no one can right that wrong. So why do you sympathize with people trying to do something that's impossible?


Quote:
I think you should go back and find a quotation. Or you might just take a look at post 22. But you seem to enjoy your strawman so much that you can't let go of it, don't you?
Right, so you understand that the people who were wronged are dead, but you point out that their heirs are now living. Do you think that giving the land to their heirs would somehow "right the wrong"? It doesn't seem like it changes anything that happened to those people at all.



Quote:
And yet:
So you're not concerned with the actual welfare of the people under discussion? That they are moving out of extreme poverty, have improving living conditions and access to basic necessities like water and electricity for cooking and lighting is unimportant to you?

What you find important isn't their actual situation, but the fact that there are people richer than them in that society.

Would a solution that hurt everyone be good? That could lower income inequality. Actually I think that's exactly what you think should be done.




Quote:
Yes, your alleged cure certainly seems to be:
I showed data that my "alleged cure" is actually helping people. You completely ignored it as though the actual lives of the people you pretend to be concerned with didn't matter.
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:36 AM   #202
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Right, so you understand that the people who were wronged are dead, but you point out that their heirs are now living. Do you think that giving the land to their heirs would somehow "right the wrong"? It doesn't seem like it changes anything that happened to those people at all.
While I disagree with dann's position, I do think that restoring an heir's legitimate inheritance does in fact right a wrong. And I think that determining inheritance rights and implementing a program of restitution can be part of a truth and reconciliation process.

But that's not what's happening here. There is neither truth nor reconciliation in this proposal. dann's ideas of inheritance and dignity, while noble, really find no foothold.
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Old 13th March 2018, 08:41 AM   #203
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Concerned with ...? I'd rather say: sympathize with ...
It's like you're quoting The Princess Bride.

No, your posts here show that you're quite a bit concerned. Why you try to deny it is a mystery.

Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
So you're not concerned with the actual welfare of the people under discussion? That they are moving out of extreme poverty, have improving living conditions and access to basic necessities like water and electricity for cooking and lighting is unimportant to you?
That's the problem when you put principle over actual results.
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Old 13th March 2018, 09:15 AM   #204
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
While I disagree with dann's position, I do think that restoring an heir's legitimate inheritance does in fact right a wrong. And I think that determining inheritance rights and implementing a program of restitution can be part of a truth and reconciliation process.
Sure, I can agree with that to some extent. One aspect of what happened is that those people were not able to pass on their land to their descendants, which they likely would have done, and so not only was the land stolen from them, but so was their ability to pass it on.

Most of that desire, though, would have been for their children and their grandchildren to inherit their land. And, again, we can't give it back to them either.

Quote:
But that's not what's happening here. There is neither truth nor reconciliation in this proposal. dann's ideas of inheritance and dignity, while noble, really find no foothold.
I should say that as you point out there is some merit to these sorts of ideas. But I'm more concerned with the actual welfare of people than some idea of fairness for long past misdeads, particularly when the plans involve things that will likely cause misery for everyone.
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Old 13th March 2018, 09:23 AM   #205
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Exactly. To my mind, truth and reconciliation should always be seeking practical resolution to current conflicts, not idealized retribution for past injustices. Often the two are intertwined, which is why I think it's especially important to keep the actual goal in firmly in mind.
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Old 13th March 2018, 03:12 PM   #206
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Originally Posted by Belz... View Post
Wordgames and grade school rhetoric. Why am I not surprised?
You forgot the dime store Marxism....
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Old 13th March 2018, 09:20 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
I don't plan to right any wrongs.




Has anybody in this thread suggested that you should try to help dead people?!




No, it isn't. And in South Africa it's even worse.


Any plans?!
Wow! This Black/White racial politics is so much more complicated in Africa than it is here in the United States. I mean, if we wanted to right all the wrongs of slavery, we just need to ship all our Black people back to Africa.
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Old 13th March 2018, 10:04 PM   #208
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Originally Posted by CaptainHowdy View Post
Wow! This Black/White racial politics is so much more complicated in Africa than it is here in the United States. I mean, if we wanted to right all the wrongs of slavery, we just need to ship all our Black people back to Africa.
They tried that with Liberia. All that happened was that the African Americans who were sent there spent their time oppressing the native black people.
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Old 14th March 2018, 01:05 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by Wildy View Post
They tried that with Liberia. All that happened was that the African Americans who were sent there spent their time oppressing the native black people.
They learned well.
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Old 14th March 2018, 08:26 AM   #210
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Originally Posted by Klimax View Post
They learned well.
Nothing they didn't already know, from being human.
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Old 14th March 2018, 08:50 AM   #211
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
Nothing they didn't already know, from being human.
Part of joke.
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Old 14th March 2018, 11:12 AM   #212
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
Okay, that's fine. You sympathize with righting the particular wrong of european colonists taking the land of people living in what is now south africa.

But, as I said, no one can right that wrong. So why do you sympathize with people trying to do something that's impossible?

You still pretend that your strawman is what it's all about. As if the what is mentioned in the O is an attempt to help long-dead ancestors and not their descendants.

Quote:
Right, so you understand that the people who were wronged are dead, but you point out that their heirs are now living. Do you think that giving the land to their heirs would somehow "right the wrong"? It doesn't seem like it changes anything that happened to those people at all.

Right, so you understand that it was never about your strawman, you couldn't come up with the quotation that I asked you for, and yet you pretend that the only people who were wronged were the people from whom the European colonizers stole the land and not also their descendants. And then you repeat that it won't change "anything that happened to those people at all," as if that is what is intended. You try to make it much too easy for yourself, and I think you know that you are being disingenuous.

Quote:
So you're not concerned with the actual welfare of the people under discussion? That they are moving out of extreme poverty, have improving living conditions and access to basic necessities like water and electricity for cooking and lighting is unimportant to you?

What you find important isn't their actual situation, but the fact that there are people richer than them in that society.

No, what I sympathize with is attempts to improve their actual welfare. And I don't think that they should be content with being promised that their own descendants may some day achieve acceptable living conditions. "Access to basic necessities" is obviously better than lacking access to basic necessities, but they are just that: basic necessities!
And basic necessities are a far cry from the luxurious lifestyle that some South Africans have access to - based on the land their ancestors stole and work that generations of black South Africans have done tilling that land and working those mines since then.

Quote:
Would a solution that hurt everyone be good? That could lower income inequality. Actually I think that's exactly what you think should be done.

No, hurting everyone would be the opposite of improving the living conditions of the poor masses, wouldn't it?! So what makes you claim that "that's exactly" what I think?!
Of course, that is the new and improved strawman: the only alternative to the distribution of the wealth that is centralized in very few (usually white) hands in South Africa is a 'solution that hurts everyone.'

Quote:
I showed data that my "alleged cure" is actually helping people. You completely ignored it as though the actual lives of the people you pretend to be concerned with didn't matter.

Yes, keep pretending that while we're waiting for your version of trickle-down economics to work. For the South Africans perusing the Sotheby's International Realty catalogue, waiting is sweet. And hurting them would be hurting everyone, wouldn't it?!
And for some people, expectations beyond "basic necessities" are unrealistic. They should admire the lifestyle of the rich and be happy with what they have(n't) got:

Quote:
According to new data released by Stats SA, poverty is on the rise in South Africa. The latest “Poverty Trends in South Africa” report shows that, despite the general decline in poverty between 2006 and 2011, poverty levels in South Africa rose in 2015. More than half of South Africans were poor in 2015, with the poverty headcount increasing to 55,5% from a series low of 53,2% in 2011.
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Old 14th March 2018, 11:15 AM   #213
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PS If you go back and take a look at the OP, it's bleeding obvious that it doesn't talk about helping long-dead ancestors of black South Africans.

Why is it so important to you guys to pretend that it does?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th March 2018, 12:29 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, what I sympathize with is attempts to improve their actual welfare. And I don't think that they should be content with being promised that their own descendants may some day achieve acceptable living conditions. "Access to basic necessities" is obviously better than lacking access to basic necessities, but they are just that: basic necessities!
And basic necessities are a far cry from the luxurious lifestyle that some South Africans have access to - based on the land their ancestors stole and work that generations of black South Africans have done tilling that land and working those mines since then.

I am reminded of the words of William J. H. Boetcker (sometimes misattributed to Abraham Lincoln):
Quote:
  • You cannot bring about prosperity by discouraging thrift.
  • You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
  • You cannot help little men by tearing down big men.
  • You cannot lift the wage earner by pulling down the wage payer.
  • You cannot help the poor by destroying the rich.
  • You cannot establish sound security on borrowed money.
  • You cannot further the brotherhood of man by inciting class hatred.
  • You cannot keep out of trouble by spending more than you earn.
  • You cannot build character and courage by destroying men's initiative and independence.
  • And you cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they can and should do for themselves.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_J._H._Boetcker
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Old 14th March 2018, 12:35 PM   #215
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As far as Helping the Masses go, the kind of system that dann apparently favors has been tried, and the Masses generally ended up worse off then before.
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Old 14th March 2018, 12:40 PM   #216
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
As far as Helping the Masses go, the kind of system that dann apparently favors has been tried, and the Masses generally ended up worse off then before.
The politics of envy is always counterproductive.
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Old 14th March 2018, 01:16 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
No, what I sympathize with is attempts to improve their actual welfare.
The policy in question is not such an attempt.
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:07 PM   #218
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
As far as Helping the Masses go, the kind of system that dann apparently favors has been tried, and the Masses generally ended up worse off then before.

The kind of system that dudalb favors has been tried and the Masses ended up with: Poverty on the Rise in South Africa!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:11 PM   #219
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The kind of system that dudalb favors has been tried and the Masses ended up with: Poverty on the Rise in South Africa!
So... Don't do either.
But don't defend a stupid idea just because it's your stupid idea.
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Old 14th March 2018, 02:13 PM   #220
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The kind of system that dudalb favors has been tried and the Masses ended up with: Poverty on the Rise in South Africa!
I don't think South Africa has actually implemented the policy dudalb favors.
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Old 14th March 2018, 07:24 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
The kind of system that dudalb favors has been tried and the Masses ended up with: Poverty on the Rise in South Africa!

Quote:
The South African economy in the last five years, notably between 2011 and 2015, has been driven by a combination of international and domestic factors such as low and weak economic growth, continuing high unemployment levels, lower commodity prices, higher consumer prices (especially for energy and food), lower investment levels, greater household dependency on credit, and policy uncertainty.
Not to mention white ownership of farms! Oh, wait ... the article didn't mention that.
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Old 14th March 2018, 09:06 PM   #222
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State controlled land in four maps


Quote:
There are two important reports from government that currently informs the land issue. The first is the Land Audit booklet by the Department of Rural Development and Land Reform (DRDLR) dated 2013 which sets the extent of state land (registered and unregistered) at 17 061 822 ha or 14% of total South Africa. The second is the Land Audit Report of 2017 which attempts to show private land ownership by race gender and nationality. The report puts private land ownership at 93 956 125 ha or 77.03% of the total area of South Africa (121 973 200 ha). According to the report land ownership is based on parcels registered in the deeds office, however, “ownership” is not defined in the report. If ownership means freehold in terms of a title deed, then this figure is doubtful.
The 2013 spatial data obtained from DRDLR sets state land at 13 357 235 ha or 11.0% of total land.

Adding tribal land, not included in state land, sets the total land not privately-owned to 26 976 657 ha or 22.1%.

Ex-homelands, transferred to homeland governments prior to 1994, adds a total of 17 083 490 ha.

Including national parks and nature reserves under control of provincial governments adds 8 050 643 ha to the equation and brings the total land under state control to 52 110 790 ha or 42.7% of all land in South Africa

Quote:
Working with these figures, it is difficult to reconcile it with the figure quoted by government of private land ownership at 93 956 125 ha or 77.03% of the total area of South Africa. Somewhere there is about a 24 million ha discrepancy in the equation that can have a significant impact on the land debate.
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Old 14th March 2018, 11:22 PM   #223
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
You still pretend that your strawman is what it's all about. As if the what is mentioned in the O is an attempt to help long-dead ancestors and not their descendants.
When talking about righting wrongs, those are the only people who were wronged. I accept that you don't want to go back and help those people. My point is simply that those are the people who were wronged, so there's no wrong that you can right.

Quote:
Right, so you understand that it was never about your strawman, you couldn't come up with the quotation that I asked you for, and yet you pretend that the only people who were wronged were the people from whom the European colonizers stole the land and not also their descendants. And then you repeat that it won't change "anything that happened to those people at all," as if that is what is intended. You try to make it much too easy for yourself, and I think you know that you are being disingenuous.
I find the idea that people living today were wronged by something that happened more than a century ago to be very strange.

I certainly agree that they were born into a bad situation that was caused by european colonization. But that's very different from the idea that they have been wronged.


Quote:
No, what I sympathize with is attempts to improve their actual welfare.
Great! Me too. Let's actually look at what can do that effectively.

Quote:
And I don't think that they should be content with being promised that their own descendants may some day achieve acceptable living conditions. "Access to basic necessities" is obviously better than lacking access to basic necessities, but they are just that: basic necessities!
Don't make the best the enemy of the good. Some improvement is better than none and plans to achieve a perfect solution that don't work are worse than plans that achieve some improvement effectively.

Quote:
And basic necessities are a far cry from the luxurious lifestyle that some South Africans have access to - based on the land their ancestors stole and work that generations of black South Africans have done tilling that land and working those mines since then.
That's an issue unrelated to how to best improve that actual lives of these people.


Quote:
No, hurting everyone would be the opposite of improving the living conditions of the poor masses, wouldn't it?! So what makes you claim that "that's exactly" what I think?!
Because that's the outcome that the plan you support would achieve. It may not be it's aim and I suppose you don't think that's the outcome that would accrue, but it's nevertheless that case that that's what would happen.

Quote:
Of course, that is the new and improved strawman: the only alternative to the distribution of the wealth that is centralized in very few (usually white) hands in South Africa is a 'solution that hurts everyone.'
There may be some solutions that I haven't considered that could be very effective. I don't think the solution being discussed in this thread is one.


Quote:
Yes, keep pretending that while we're waiting for your version of trickle-down economics to work. For the South Africans perusing the Sotheby's International Realty catalogue, waiting is sweet. And hurting them would be hurting everyone, wouldn't it?!
And for some people, expectations beyond "basic necessities" are unrealistic. They should admire the lifestyle of the rich and be happy with what they have(n't) got:
It is working. I gave you data to show just that. It also noted that the middle class is growing, not just that people are escaping from extreme poverty.

ETA: I should address the data you presented regarding poverty on the rise. There has been an uptick, according to your numbers, from 53% living in poverty in 2011 to 55% in 2015. On the other hand, the numbers I presented for extreme* poverty, showed that number falling from 53% to 20% since 1994. That's a longer, more stable trend and a much larger change. It's not clear that the trend you present is related to policy rather than just random shifts in the economic situation. But maybe you could be clear about what you attribute that change too.

*Just to be clear, obviously the things we are discussing are two different variables. It's possible that poverty went up while extreme poverty went down, but I doubt that, and I suspect that if we looked me might find that extreme poverty went up during the time period you are discussing as well.
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Old 15th March 2018, 01:05 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by theprestige View Post
I don't think South Africa has actually implemented the policy dudalb favors.
I don't think I ever stated what economic policy in South Africa I favor......I would like dann to tell me.

But I do know that kind of classic "Let the State totally control the economy" ie a "Command Economy" that dann apparently favors has been a disaster wherever it has been tried....
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Old 17th March 2018, 09:55 AM   #225
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Originally Posted by dudalb View Post
But I do know that kind of classic "Let the State totally control the economy" ie a "Command Economy" that dann apparently favors has been a disaster wherever it has been tried....

So that's what I apparently favor? The strawmen just keep coming, don't they?!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 17th March 2018, 10:07 AM   #226
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So that's what I apparently favor? The strawmen just keep coming, don't they?!
You said it:

Originally Posted by dann View Post
Snip...

And on the other hand, what the people who come up with this argument could have learned from it is that private ownership is always unfair, in particular when it excludes people from the means of production.

..... snip

No, not by my "weird logic," but by your weird strawman logic!





And the strawmen just keep coming ...
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Old 17th March 2018, 10:30 AM   #227
dann
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
When talking about righting wrongs, those are the only people who were wronged. I accept that you don't want to go back and help those people. My point is simply that those are the people who were wronged, so there's no wrong that you can right.

So you mean that their descendants received compensation? Couldn't you tell us more about that and maybe supply us with a couple of links?

Quote:
I find the idea that people living today were wronged by something that happened more than a century ago to be very strange.

I certainly agree that they were born into a bad situation that was caused by european colonization. But that's very different from the idea that they have been wronged.

No, it isn't. That's how they've been wronged!

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Great! Me too. Let's actually look at what can do that effectively.

Don't make the best the enemy of the good. Some improvement is better than none and plans to achieve a perfect solution that don't work are worse than plans that achieve some improvement effectively.

Yes, some improvement is better than none, but basic necessities aren't good enough. I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't be content with just basic necessities. I certainly wouldn't, and I would be sorely ****** if I could compare my basic necessities with the opulent luxury that you can find elsewhere in SA.

Quote:
That's an issue unrelated to how to best improve that actual lives of these people.

No, it isn't. That an example of the kind of lifestyle far beyond the basic necessities that appear to be good enough for some people.

Quote:
Because that's the outcome that the plan you support would achieve. It may not be it's aim and I suppose you don't think that's the outcome that would accrue, but it's nevertheless that case that that's what would happen.

There may be some solutions that I haven't considered that could be very effective. I don't think the solution being discussed in this thread is one.

It is working. I gave you data to show just that. It also noted that the middle class is growing, not just that people are escaping from extreme poverty.

ETA: I should address the data you presented regarding poverty on the rise. There has been an uptick, according to your numbers, from 53% living in poverty in 2011 to 55% in 2015. On the other hand, the numbers I presented for extreme* poverty, showed that number falling from 53% to 20% since 1994. That's a longer, more stable trend and a much larger change. It's not clear that the trend you present is related to policy rather than just random shifts in the economic situation. But maybe you could be clear about what you attribute that change too.

I don't really "attribute the change to" anything, but it obviously coexists with extreme wealth in the hands of a minority of South Africans. So 24 years after Apartheid you have 20 % still living not only in poverty but in extreme poverty. And I'm sure that the 20 % (and the other 35 % living in poverty) will be thrilled if they can attribute the "uptick" to "random shifts in the economic situation."
(Why that is the case, not only in South Africa but in much of the rest of the world as well, is not a secret: Why are many people in developing countries poor?)

Quote:
*Just to be clear, obviously the things we are discussing are two different variables. It's possible that poverty went up while extreme poverty went down, but I doubt that, and I suspect that if we looked me might find that extreme poverty went up during the time period you are discussing as well.
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Old 17th March 2018, 10:31 AM   #228
dann
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Originally Posted by fagin View Post
You said it:

No, I didn't. Read the quotation instead of reading stuff into it!
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"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 17th March 2018, 10:33 AM   #229
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Originally Posted by psionl0 View Post
Not to mention white ownership of farms! Oh, wait ... the article didn't mention that.

No, it didn't! Does it surprise you that it didn't?!
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 17th March 2018, 10:34 AM   #230
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Freshman Marxism 101.
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Old 17th March 2018, 10:38 AM   #231
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
Snip



(Why that is the case, not only in South Africa but in much of the rest of the world as well, is not a secret: Why are many people in developing countries poor?)
Yeah right.

I think you'll find Mr. Zuma and his cronies have managed to siphon off many, many billions. From your poor people. Because they are thieves who don't give a ****.
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Old 17th March 2018, 11:53 AM   #232
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Old 17th March 2018, 09:29 PM   #233
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If only that evil apartheid government was able to get away with the land deal with Swaziland then the King could have gotten land stolen from him by the evil colonisers back.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 03:32 AM   #234
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There is a bit about Zimbabwe, if not South Africa, in a book called The Rule of law by Tom Bingham 2010, which I think is something to do with the Human Rights Act 1998:

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The article does two things. First it prohibits the arbitrary confiscation of people's property or possessions without compensation. The treatment of white farmers in Zimbabwe would be the most obvious violation. But, secondly, the article recognizes that, in some situations, it may be necessary to override private property rights for the benefit of the community as a whole. It may be necessary for the state to acquire my farm in order to build a motorway or a new airport, but the need must be shown and I must be compensated. It may be necessary to control the way I use my land to prevent my factory polluting the atmosphere or the local river. It may be necessary to seize and sell some of my goods if I do not pay my income or council tax, or fail to comply with a judgment of the court. But all this must be done pursuant to law, as the rule of law requires.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 05:01 AM   #235
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Originally Posted by dann View Post
So you mean that their descendants received compensation? Couldn't you tell us more about that and maybe supply us with a couple of links?




No, it isn't. That's how they've been wronged!
I guess this is really just a semantic argument to be honest. I find the idea of being wronged before you were born to be non-sensical. However, I can understand that you have a framework in which is makes sense.


Quote:
Yes, some improvement is better than none, but basic necessities aren't good enough. I'm pretty sure that you wouldn't be content with just basic necessities. I certainly wouldn't, and I would be sorely ****** if I could compare my basic necessities with the opulent luxury that you can find elsewhere in SA.
It's not just basic necessities, but supplying basic necessities to people living in extreme poverty is the most important step in development from a humanitarian perspective. However, the middle class is also growing:

https://businesstech.co.za/news/busi...-south-africa/
Quote:
New data reveals a surge in South Africa’s black middle class which has more than trebled over the past 12 years, while the country’s white middle class has shrunk over the same period.
Quote:
An earlier report published by UCT Unilever Institute of Strategic Marketing in 2013, found that South Africa’s black middle class had more than doubled from 1.7-million South Africans in 2004, to 4.2 million in 2012.



Quote:
I don't really "attribute the change to" anything, but it obviously coexists with extreme wealth in the hands of a minority of South Africans. So 24 years after Apartheid you have 20 % still living not only in poverty but in extreme poverty. And I'm sure that the 20 % (and the other 35 % living in poverty) will be thrilled if they can attribute the "uptick" to "random shifts in the economic situation."
The question is whether those with extreme wealth are negatively affecting those in poverty. I'm much interested in reducing poverty than limiting extreme wealth. In fact, I don't see extreme wealth being negative in and of itself.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 07:13 AM   #236
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Originally Posted by Henri McPhee View Post
There is a bit about Zimbabwe, if not South Africa, in a book called The Rule of law by Tom Bingham 2010, which I think is something to do with the Human Rights Act 1998:
So, as usual, totally irrelevant...
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Old 23rd March 2018, 08:04 AM   #237
dann
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Originally Posted by Roboramma View Post
I guess this is really just a semantic argument to be honest. I find the idea of being wronged before you were born to be non-sensical. However, I can understand that you have a framework in which is makes sense.

Don't turn it into a question of semantics. It's obvious that nobody can wrong you when you don't (yet) exist, but it's just as obvious that if you inherit nothing but poverty from your parents because they were deprived of what their children were meant to inherit, then you've been wronged.
A different example: If you descend from slaves and your inheritance is poverty, you've been wronged. If you descend from slave traders and/or the owners of sugar plantations and inherited their extreme wealth, you wrong the descendants of the slaves by not sharing your extreme wealth with them:
Quote:
Major parts of Copenhagen were built by families whose fortunes came from, e.g. the slave trade and sugar plantations.
Slaveland Danmark? (Information, Dec. 18, 2015)

Quote:
It's not just basic necessities, but supplying basic necessities to people living in extreme poverty is the most important step in development from a humanitarian perspective. However, the middle class is also growing:

https://businesstech.co.za/news/busi...-south-africa/

So not only poverty but also the (black) middle classes are growing. Good for them. But their newly acquired wealth doesn't seem to trickle down much, does it?!
No wonder BusinessTech isn't interested in poor people.

Quote:
The question is whether those with extreme wealth are negatively affecting those in poverty. I'm much interested in reducing poverty than limiting extreme wealth. In fact, I don't see extreme wealth being negative in and of itself.

I do! When you own nothing and therefore have to work for those who do, you are negatively affected by the inequality of private property.
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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Old 23rd March 2018, 11:05 AM   #238
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Who makes it up to the children of the white farmers? they didn't do anything wrong
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Old 23rd March 2018, 11:58 AM   #239
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Who makes it up to the children of the white farmers? they didn't do anything wrong
Stop raising inconvenient points. You're disrupting the tide of social justice being wrought on this fine thread.
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Old 23rd March 2018, 02:01 PM   #240
dann
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Originally Posted by applecorped View Post
Who makes it up to the children of the white farmers? they didn't do anything wrong

Makes what up?
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"Stupidity renders itself invisible by assuming very large proportions. Completely unreasonable claims are irrefutable. Ni-en-leh pointed out that a philosopher might get into trouble by claiming that two times two makes five, but he does not risk much by claiming that two times two makes shoe polish." B. Brecht
"The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness. The demand to give up the illusion about its condition is the demand to give up a condition which needs illusions." K. Marx
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